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Post by Northy on Feb 26, 2018 10:07:32 GMT
I don't worship him, I'm not sure if anybdoy does worship him. He had a theory that went against the thinking of the time, he stuck with it and was proved right, and science and evidence backs him up. But don't let that get in the way of a good story eh ? I don't understand why you want him in the Bible then? ??? Are you saying I want charles darwin in the bible, I'm not sure where you are coming from ?
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Mar 25, 2018 10:09:17 GMT
As we approach Easter just thought I'd give some random thoughts about Jesus; 1 Jesus was not meek and mild. He was executed because the Jewish religious leaders of the day saw him as a threat to their power and conspired to get the Romans to execute him The cleansing of the Temple/ overturning the tables tells of Jesus Expelling the merchants and the money changers from the Temple. Jesus and his disciples travel to Jerusalem for Passover, , accusing them of turning the Temple into "a den of thieves" through their commercial activities. David Landry suggests that "the importance of the episode is signaled by the fact that within a week of this incident, Jesus is dead. Matthew, Mark, and Luke agree that this is the event that functioned as the "trigger" for Jesus' death."[17] en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleansing_of_the_Temple2 Stating the obvious Jesus was Jewish. There is a strong argument that the Last Supper was actually the Jewish Passover meal. One of the certain facts about Jesus is that he was a Jew. He was a child of Jewish parents, brought up in a Jewish home and raised in accordance with Jewish tradition. Throughout his life, Jesus lived among Jews and his followers were Jews. He never tried to escape his Jewishness......is Christianity a branch of Judaism ( at least the religion) 3 Independent evidence suggests that he did exist. His existence is referred to in a fairly contemporary, independent history of the Roman empire, Josephus www.theguardian.com/world/2017/apr/14/what-is-the-historical-evidence-that-jesus-christ-lived-and-died
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Post by bigvern on Mar 25, 2018 10:39:01 GMT
If anyone believes in a God in 2018 they should be put in a straight jacket.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Mar 25, 2018 11:34:38 GMT
If anyone believes in a God in 2018 they should be put in a straight jacket. You might be right there Big Vern, but like it or not it's a very powerful concept, that motivates individuals and groups to do good and bad things, and it isn't going to go away..,..even if it should. It's a funny thing though, if our country had not got church building s in almost every town and village, and if birthday deaths and marriages did not have some sort of ceremony ( I agree it doesn't have to be ' religious' in the traditional way of thinking if religion) it would seem a " souless" place. It seems to me that religion does for m part of some people's identity..... I think the Jews have got something in that most of their ceremonies, eg the Sabbath, Hanukkah and Passover meal centre on telling the story of their people. Binding. And family orientated. Similarly the strength of Islam is its Common identity and conversely the weakness of the West/ now irreligious.....I'm not advocating for an upsurge in Religion by the way, just making observations
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Mar 25, 2018 11:44:26 GMT
Isn't belief little more than superstition really? Which comes from the knowledge that we are all going to die and we don't like that idea so we invent an afterlife which depends on your conduct in your actual life?
From that point the idea of ministries, priests, rules, sin etc etc is not so very hard to imagine or construct. Then you have a very powerful guilt-based industry which can never really be 'defeated' because everyone knows they are going to die but the 'Church' (of whichever faith) claims to have the answer to this.
Whoever said all religions are just guilt-trips with different holidays was probably correct.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Mar 25, 2018 12:55:02 GMT
Isn't belief little more than superstition really? Which comes from the knowledge that we are all going to die and we don't like that idea so we invent an afterlife which depends on your conduct in your actual life? From that point the idea of ministries, priests, rules, sin etc etc is not so very hard to imagine or construct. Then you have a very powerful guilt-based industry which can never really be 'defeated' because everyone knows they are going to die but the 'Church' (of whichever faith) claims to have the answer to this. Whoever said all religions are just guilt-trips with different holidays was probably correct. I can agree with most of that Red, Isn't the ' problem' that of power and size. When a " superstition" grows so much that it dominates large amounts of people and for whom it becomes their main concern and when that domination is seen as the ultimate authority, unchallengable and infallible and includes a belief that others should behave in the way they do....then there might be a problem. Conversely religion has inspired many individuals to great , benevolent acts
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2018 12:56:34 GMT
Yes
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Post by trentvale68 on Mar 25, 2018 13:43:07 GMT
I don't believe in the classic bearded guy up in the sky at all, but i do believe in a higher consciousness which we are all a part of.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Mar 25, 2018 14:54:34 GMT
Isn't belief little more than superstition really? Which comes from the knowledge that we are all going to die and we don't like that idea so we invent an afterlife which depends on your conduct in your actual life? From that point the idea of ministries, priests, rules, sin etc etc is not so very hard to imagine or construct. Then you have a very powerful guilt-based industry which can never really be 'defeated' because everyone knows they are going to die but the 'Church' (of whichever faith) claims to have the answer to this. Whoever said all religions are just guilt-trips with different holidays was probably correct. I can agree with most of that Red, Isn't the ' problem' that of power and size. When a " superstition" grows so much that it dominates large amounts of people and for whom it becomes their main concern and when that domination is seen as the ultimate authority, unchallengable and infallible and includes a belief that others should behave in the way they do....then there might be a problem. Conversely religion has inspired many individuals to great , benevolent acts Yes, well, every large powerful organisation ends up with issues over corruption, megalomania etc etc. That's just the nature of humans in such organisations. But getting back to my central point, if we lived for ever would anyone have invented the idea of a God? Probably not, because the fundamental driving force behind the whole concept is then redundant. Which tells you where it all comes from really. Awareness and fear of death. All the rest is just add-ons.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Mar 25, 2018 15:26:52 GMT
I can agree with most of that Red, Isn't the ' problem' that of power and size. When a " superstition" grows so much that it dominates large amounts of people and for whom it becomes their main concern and when that domination is seen as the ultimate authority, unchallengable and infallible and includes a belief that others should behave in the way they do....then there might be a problem. Conversely religion has inspired many individuals to great , benevolent acts Yes, well, every large powerful organisation ends up with issues over corruption, megalomania etc etc. That's just the nature of humans in such organisations. But getting back to my central point, if we lived for ever would anyone have invented the idea of a God? Probably not, because the fundamental driving force behind the whole concept is then redundant. Which tells you where it all comes from really. Awareness and fear of death. All the rest is just add-ons. Yes , I agree again...but I think it's the add ons that causes problems. If belief was kept personal to the individual, and perhaps the sharing/ discussing of faiths/ philosophies then little harm done. The add on of organisations and influential people within organisatios telling others what they should do and think, with , as I think you suggest, the threat of eternal damnation ( or promise of heaven) then we have potential for problems
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2018 16:31:57 GMT
If anyone believes in a God in 2018 they should be put in a straight jacket. There's nothing wrong with believing in a god (I don't as such) the problem arises when Man (or rather more accurately MEN) organise belief through religions One theory is all these major religions sprang up 2 to 2500 years ago as a way of providing rules by which people could live by, increasing social harmony through ethical rule following The problem is these religions, particularly the Abrahamic religions of Judaism, Islam and Christianity, were aimed at uneducated desert dwelling arabs and not teenagers with iPads
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Mar 25, 2018 19:46:01 GMT
Yes, well, every large powerful organisation ends up with issues over corruption, megalomania etc etc. That's just the nature of humans in such organisations. But getting back to my central point, if we lived for ever would anyone have invented the idea of a God? Probably not, because the fundamental driving force behind the whole concept is then redundant. Which tells you where it all comes from really. Awareness and fear of death. All the rest is just add-ons. Yes , I agree again...but I think it's the add ons that causes problems. If belief was kept personal to the individual, and perhaps the sharing/ discussing of faiths/ philosophies then little harm done. The add on of organisations and influential people within organisatios telling others what they should do and think, with , as I think you suggest, the threat of eternal damnation ( or promise of heaven) then we have potential for problems Yes, I agree completely. Organised religions of any denomination could not really be much farther from the original doctrines of the sacred texts and teachings of the prophets if they set out to try! There are very few genuine followers, the ones who are we look at as a bit weird in modern society - nuns/monks, buddhist monks, hindu ascetics, etc etc. But really the rest who claim to be followers but who pick and choose which bits to follow and which to ignore so they can fit in with society are just hypocrites playing at it. Less hypocritical all round to be agnostic or atheist and stop pretending!
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Post by cheeesfreeex on Mar 25, 2018 20:33:24 GMT
I like the community aspect of me local methodist ministry, high up on a gritstone escarpment, harsh environment but possibly closer to the heavens. Takes a bit of organising to get them together in one place a couple of times each week.
Coming to the conclusion that the notion of a flat earth is as credible as the fast spinning ball.
So called science is fast becoming the new superstition imo. A lot of it is speculative unobservable 'best' guesses, at best. Gravity? Dark matter? Quarks? The size of the Sun? Far more questions than answers.
Some kind of grand designer that has placed us at the centre of things is quite compelling. Better than the tiny insignificance of humanity as peddled by the science folk, those with the reigns and multiversists etc.
I generally adhere to the ten commandments. Still relevant.
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Post by trentvale68 on Mar 25, 2018 22:36:08 GMT
Brilliant post Cheese. Have a look into Robert Lanza's theory of Biocentrism, and while you're at it look into Michael Newton, Jurgen Ziewe, Erwin Lazlo and Anthony Peake. I'll pick holes as much as anyone in the gospels and ancient texts but equally, I don't think for one second there is anything random/pointless or accidental about our existence
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Post by vahl on Mar 25, 2018 23:43:51 GMT
I like the community aspect of me local methodist ministry, high up on a gritstone escarpment, harsh environment but possibly closer to the heavens. Takes a bit of organising to get them together in one place a couple of times each week. Coming to the conclusion that the notion of a flat earth is as credible as the fast spinning ball. So called science is fast becoming the new superstition imo. A lot of it is speculative unobservable 'best' guesses, at best. Gravity? Dark matter? Quarks? The size of the Sun? Far more questions than answers. Some kind of grand designer that has placed us at the centre of things is quite compelling. Better than the tiny insignificance of humanity as peddled by the science folk, those with the reigns and multiverists etc. I generally adhere to the ten commandments. Still relevant. Let me first say that I am 100% behind science. How do you even start to unravel (or decipher, depending on which way you look at it) thousands of years of religious teachings? Especially as an Englishman, we have to rely on countries such as USA, Russia & China to spend vast amounts of money to even begin - which is ironic because a lot of British people work for the best Space Agencies. We (Britain) are involved heavily with the European Space Agency but generally English people are not aware unless Tim Peake or Brian Cox are on the telly. People like Elon Musk will change the way we all live in time but Science is very much a collaborative effort and due to the very nature of it (unfortunately we don't have an endless amount of Einsteins or Hawkings) it takes immense amounts of man power and, more importantly, time, to answer what we want to know. Politics and general Human behaviours also slow this down a lot. As for God - well, I believe there are higher beings and we are all on a path that has been laid before us. That is where I will leave it because I don't want to upset the Tin Foil Hat brigade.
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Post by mrcoke on Mar 26, 2018 0:26:26 GMT
As we approach Easter just thought I'd give some random thoughts about Jesus; 1 Jesus was not meek and mild. He was executed because the Jewish religious leaders of the day saw him as a threat to their power and conspired to get the Romans to execute him The cleansing of the Temple/ overturning the tables tells of Jesus Expelling the merchants and the money changers from the Temple. Jesus and his disciples travel to Jerusalem for Passover, , accusing them of turning the Temple into "a den of thieves" through their commercial activities. David Landry suggests that "the importance of the episode is signaled by the fact that within a week of this incident, Jesus is dead. Matthew, Mark, and Luke agree that this is the event that functioned as the "trigger" for Jesus' death."[17] en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleansing_of_the_Temple2 Stating the obvious Jesus was Jewish. There is a strong argument that the Last Supper was actually the Jewish Passover meal. One of the certain facts about Jesus is that he was a Jew. He was a child of Jewish parents, brought up in a Jewish home and raised in accordance with Jewish tradition. Throughout his life, Jesus lived among Jews and his followers were Jews. He never tried to escape his Jewishness......is Christianity a branch of Judaism ( at least the religion) 3 Independent evidence suggests that he did exist. His existence is referred to in a fairly contemporary, independent history of the Roman empire, Josephus www.theguardian.com/world/2017/apr/14/what-is-the-historical-evidence-that-jesus-christ-lived-and-diedThank you for rebooting this thread, which I have not seen before and saw for the first time this evening after getting home from church. To addres your points: 1. The leaders of the Jews called for Jesus to be crucified because they believed he was not the messiah but a heretic and a threat to their authority. Whether or not you believe he was the son of God is a matter of faith and cannot be proven one way or the other. However the Alpha course puts up a very good logical argument in favour of Jesus being the son of God. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpha_course See 3 below. 2. Obvious Jesus was Jewish. Christians believe he was the son of God and the Virgin Mary. Judaism does not accept this, but that is not to say all Jews are not Christians. There are Messianic Jews who believe Jesus was the Messiah. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messianic_Judaism Christianity is not a branch of Judaism. Christians believe that Christ is their Saviour, that he died to pay for all our sins against God ( a sin against another person is a sin against Jesus/God, because he told us to love one another). The OP asks whether you believe in God; that is not the point. Even the devil believes in God. The question is do you believe Jesus died for you to pay for your sins. 3. Historians depend on contemporary evidence for their conclusions. The Alpha Course says (or said when I attended) that there is more contemporary evidence for the existence of Jesus than Julius Caesar. This is disputed by some ( www.quora.com/Is-it-true-that-there-is-more-evidence-for-Jesus-existence-than-Julius-Caesars) but there is a huge amount of evidence for his existence and evidence that he performed miracles, but then doubters would say so does David Copperfield. There are a lot of scoffers on this thread which is hardly surprising, there were in Jesus' day and for 2,000 years since. But as for putting Christians in straight jackets that is mild compared with what some regimes in the world do to Christians. There are many sources for evidence; this link gives the simplest summary: www.americamagazine.org/faith/2018/01/11/top-10-worst-countries-christian-persecutionNevertheless the growth in Christianity continues to be huge, www.washingtonpost.com/news/acts-of-faith/wp/2015/05/20/think-christianity-is-dying-no-christianity-is-shifting-dramatically/?utm_term=.f9644e46b26c The growth in Islam is greater, according to some sources. www.pewforum.org/2015/04/02/religious-projections-2010-2050/ This link states: "Atheists, agnostics and other people who do not affiliate with any religion ...... will make up a declining share of the world’s total population."There is also a major shift between religions, with large numbers of Muslim converting to Christianity, although our media prefer to high-light the radicalization of Muslims. www.quora.com/Is-the-rate-of-conversion-to-Christianity-more-than-that-to-Islam
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Post by bathstoke on Mar 26, 2018 6:55:02 GMT
Jesus was not meek and mild. Don't mistake meekness for weakness Happy Easter to you all
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Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2018 7:04:02 GMT
If anyone believes in a God in 2018 they should be put in a straight jacket. I need a straight jacket then
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Post by bathstoke on Mar 26, 2018 7:20:15 GMT
If anyone believes in a God in 2018 they should be put in a straight jacket. I need a straight jacket then Amen
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Mar 26, 2018 7:32:47 GMT
Jesus was not meek and mild. Don't mistake meekness for weakness Happy Easter to you all I don't. As you know I quoted it from a hymn, which gives the totally wrong impression of him. Not meek in the sense of submissive.Not always gentle. Bold and critical.
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Post by Northy on Mar 26, 2018 7:39:50 GMT
If anyone believes in a God in 2018 they should be put in a straight jacket. I need a straight jacket then and that's despite religion
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Post by Northy on Mar 26, 2018 7:40:59 GMT
As we approach Easter just thought I'd give some random thoughts about Jesus; 1 Jesus was not meek and mild. He was executed because the Jewish religious leaders of the day saw him as a threat to their power and conspired to get the Romans to execute him The cleansing of the Temple/ overturning the tables tells of Jesus Expelling the merchants and the money changers from the Temple. Jesus and his disciples travel to Jerusalem for Passover, , accusing them of turning the Temple into "a den of thieves" through their commercial activities. David Landry suggests that "the importance of the episode is signaled by the fact that within a week of this incident, Jesus is dead. Matthew, Mark, and Luke agree that this is the event that functioned as the "trigger" for Jesus' death."[17] en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleansing_of_the_Temple2 Stating the obvious Jesus was Jewish. There is a strong argument that the Last Supper was actually the Jewish Passover meal. One of the certain facts about Jesus is that he was a Jew. He was a child of Jewish parents, brought up in a Jewish home and raised in accordance with Jewish tradition. Throughout his life, Jesus lived among Jews and his followers were Jews. He never tried to escape his Jewishness......is Christianity a branch of Judaism ( at least the religion) 3 Independent evidence suggests that he did exist. His existence is referred to in a fairly contemporary, independent history of the Roman empire, Josephus www.theguardian.com/world/2017/apr/14/what-is-the-historical-evidence-that-jesus-christ-lived-and-diedThank you for rebooting this thread, which I have not seen before and saw for the first time this evening after getting home from church. To addres your points: 1. The leaders of the Jews called for Jesus to be crucified because they believed he was not the messiah but a heretic and a threat to their authority. Whether or not you believe he was the son of God is a matter of faith and cannot be proven one way or the other. However the Alpha course puts up a very good logical argument in favour of Jesus being the son of God. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpha_course See 3 below. 2. Obvious Jesus was Jewish. Christians believe he was the son of God and the Virgin Mary. Judaism does not accept this, but that is not to say all Jews are not Christians. There are Messianic Jews who believe Jesus was the Messiah. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messianic_Judaism Christianity is not a branch of Judaism. Christians believe that Christ is their Saviour, that he died to pay for all our sins against God ( a sin against another person is a sin against Jesus/God, because he told us to love one another). The OP asks whether you believe in God; that is not the point. Even the devil believes in God. The question is do you believe Jesus died for you to pay for your sins. 3. Historians depend on contemporary evidence for their conclusions. The Alpha Course says (or said when I attended) that there is more contemporary evidence for the existence of Jesus than Julius Caesar. This is disputed by some ( www.quora.com/Is-it-true-that-there-is-more-evidence-for-Jesus-existence-than-Julius-Caesars) but there is a huge amount of evidence for his existence and evidence that he performed miracles, but then doubters would say so does David Copperfield. There are a lot of scoffers on this thread which is hardly surprising, there were in Jesus' day and for 2,000 years since. But as for putting Christians in straight jackets that is mild compared with what some regimes in the world do to Christians. There are many sources for evidence; this link gives the simplest summary: www.americamagazine.org/faith/2018/01/11/top-10-worst-countries-christian-persecutionNevertheless the growth in Christianity continues to be huge, www.washingtonpost.com/news/acts-of-faith/wp/2015/05/20/think-christianity-is-dying-no-christianity-is-shifting-dramatically/?utm_term=.f9644e46b26c The growth in Islam is greater, according to some sources. www.pewforum.org/2015/04/02/religious-projections-2010-2050/ This link states: "Atheists, agnostics and other people who do not affiliate with any religion ...... will make up a declining share of the world’s total population."There is also a major shift between religions, with large numbers of Muslim converting to Christianity, although our media prefer to high-light the radicalization of Muslims. www.quora.com/Is-the-rate-of-conversion-to-Christianity-more-than-that-to-IslamNobody said about putting just Christians in a straight jacket, just anybody that believes in a god.
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Post by bathstoke on Mar 26, 2018 8:18:40 GMT
As we approach Easter just thought I'd give some random thoughts about Jesus; 1 Jesus was not meek and mild. He was executed because the Jewish religious leaders of the day saw him as a threat to their power and conspired to get the Romans to execute him The cleansing of the Temple/ overturning the tables tells of Jesus Expelling the merchants and the money changers from the Temple. Jesus and his disciples travel to Jerusalem for Passover, , accusing them of turning the Temple into "a den of thieves" through their commercial activities. David Landry suggests that "the importance of the episode is signaled by the fact that within a week of this incident, Jesus is dead. Matthew, Mark, and Luke agree that this is the event that functioned as the "trigger" for Jesus' death."[17] en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleansing_of_the_Temple2 Stating the obvious Jesus was Jewish. There is a strong argument that the Last Supper was actually the Jewish Passover meal. One of the certain facts about Jesus is that he was a Jew. He was a child of Jewish parents, brought up in a Jewish home and raised in accordance with Jewish tradition. Throughout his life, Jesus lived among Jews and his followers were Jews. He never tried to escape his Jewishness......is Christianity a branch of Judaism ( at least the religion) 3 Independent evidence suggests that he did exist. His existence is referred to in a fairly contemporary, independent history of the Roman empire, Josephus www.theguardian.com/world/2017/apr/14/what-is-the-historical-evidence-that-jesus-christ-lived-and-diedThere is also a major shift between religions, with large numbers of Muslim converting to Christianity, although our media prefer to high-light the radicalization of Muslims. www.quora.com/Is-the-rate-of-conversion-to-Christianity-more-than-that-to-IslamIn 1990, I worked with a girl that had converted from Islam to Christianity & was basically in hiding(if there is anything basic about being in the run from ones family) I didn't realise the significance of it at the time & didn't know about honour killing, but now I know how courageous she was...
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Post by thegift on Mar 26, 2018 13:56:25 GMT
No such thing.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Mar 26, 2018 15:30:18 GMT
As we approach Easter just thought I'd give some random thoughts about Jesus; 1 Jesus was not meek and mild. He was executed because the Jewish religious leaders of the day saw him as a threat to their power and conspired to get the Romans to execute him The cleansing of the Temple/ overturning the tables tells of Jesus Expelling the merchants and the money changers from the Temple. Jesus and his disciples travel to Jerusalem for Passover, , accusing them of turning the Temple into "a den of thieves" through their commercial activities. David Landry suggests that "the importance of the episode is signaled by the fact that within a week of this incident, Jesus is dead. Matthew, Mark, and Luke agree that this is the event that functioned as the "trigger" for Jesus' death."[17] en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleansing_of_the_Temple2 Stating the obvious Jesus was Jewish. There is a strong argument that the Last Supper was actually the Jewish Passover meal. One of the certain facts about Jesus is that he was a Jew. He was a child of Jewish parents, brought up in a Jewish home and raised in accordance with Jewish tradition. Throughout his life, Jesus lived among Jews and his followers were Jews. He never tried to escape his Jewishness......is Christianity a branch of Judaism ( at least the religion) 3 Independent evidence suggests that he did exist. His existence is referred to in a fairly contemporary, independent history of the Roman empire, Josephus www.theguardian.com/world/2017/apr/14/what-is-the-historical-evidence-that-jesus-christ-lived-and-diedThank you for rebooting this thread, which I have not seen before and saw for the first time this evening after getting home from church. To addres your points: 1. The leaders of the Jews called for Jesus to be crucified because they believed he was not the messiah but a heretic and a threat to their authority. Whether or not you believe he was the son of God is a matter of faith and cannot be proven one way or the other. However the Alpha course puts up a very good logical argument in favour of Jesus being the son of God. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpha_course See 3 below. 2. Obvious Jesus was Jewish. Christians believe he was the son of God and the Virgin Mary. Judaism does not accept this, but that is not to say all Jews are not Christians. There are Messianic Jews who believe Jesus was the Messiah. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messianic_Judaism Christianity is not a branch of Judaism. Christians believe that Christ is their Saviour, that he died to pay for all our sins against God ( a sin against another person is a sin against Jesus/God, because he told us to love one another). The OP asks whether you believe in God; that is not the point. Even the devil believes in God. The question is do you believe Jesus died for you to pay for your sins. 3. Historians depend on contemporary evidence for their conclusions. The Alpha Course says (or said when I attended) that there is more contemporary evidence for the existence of Jesus than Julius Caesar. This is disputed by some ( www.quora.com/Is-it-true-that-there-is-more-evidence-for-Jesus-existence-than-Julius-Caesars) but there is a huge amount of evidence for his existence and evidence that he performed miracles, but then doubters would say so does David Copperfield. There are a lot of scoffers on this thread which is hardly surprising, there were in Jesus' day and for 2,000 years since. But as for putting Christians in straight jackets that is mild compared with what some regimes in the world do to Christians. There are many sources for evidence; this link gives the simplest summary: www.americamagazine.org/faith/2018/01/11/top-10-worst-countries-christian-persecutionNevertheless the growth in Christianity continues to be huge, www.washingtonpost.com/news/acts-of-faith/wp/2015/05/20/think-christianity-is-dying-no-christianity-is-shifting-dramatically/?utm_term=.f9644e46b26c The growth in Islam is greater, according to some sources. www.pewforum.org/2015/04/02/religious-projections-2010-2050/ This link states: "Atheists, agnostics and other people who do not affiliate with any religion ...... will make up a declining share of the world’s total population."There is also a major shift between religions, with large numbers of Muslim converting to Christianity, although our media prefer to high-light the radicalization of Muslims. www.quora.com/Is-the-rate-of-conversion-to-Christianity-more-than-that-to-IslamCoke, I agree with most of what you say. I do think that the Sadducees and Pharisees saw Jesus as a threat, popular amongst the outcasts, right tag of society, and upsetting the apple cart. Interestingly Jesus referred to himself as the Son of Man, rather than the Son of God( there may have been one exception). As you say , a matter of personal opinion, whether you see him as the Messiah, a personal saviour. A few problems I have; the miracles, why do them then, God intervening to do good, why not do it now, secondly, related the one everyone has, why suffering. third the idea that an intervention many years ago in at a certain stage in history, provides God's solution for all time. 2 I was just pointing out the obvious links with Christianity and Judaism. The "Old" Testament, the idea of a Messiah, the Sabbath, Easter/Passover. I do find it significant that Jesus himself did not suggest a break with ' Judaism' as it was then. This came with the Early Church. My point about Christianity being a " branch of Judaism" was tongue in cheek. I made the point, as you have, about the difference in believing that thereISa God is different from believing IN God earlier on in the thread. 3 Agree about the historicity of Jesus hence my reference to Josephus. For me the Gospels have stood the test of time as spiritual guidance/ truthful moral code......but I know that is not what you are perhaps referring to in terms of being a born again, committed Christian, in a relationship with God through Christ.
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Post by mrcoke on Mar 26, 2018 16:33:45 GMT
Thank you for rebooting this thread, which I have not seen before and saw for the first time this evening after getting home from church. To addres your points: 1. The leaders of the Jews called for Jesus to be crucified because they believed he was not the messiah but a heretic and a threat to their authority. Whether or not you believe he was the son of God is a matter of faith and cannot be proven one way or the other. However the Alpha course puts up a very good logical argument in favour of Jesus being the son of God. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpha_course See 3 below. 2. Obvious Jesus was Jewish. Christians believe he was the son of God and the Virgin Mary. Judaism does not accept this, but that is not to say all Jews are not Christians. There are Messianic Jews who believe Jesus was the Messiah. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messianic_Judaism Christianity is not a branch of Judaism. Christians believe that Christ is their Saviour, that he died to pay for all our sins against God ( a sin against another person is a sin against Jesus/God, because he told us to love one another). The OP asks whether you believe in God; that is not the point. Even the devil believes in God. The question is do you believe Jesus died for you to pay for your sins. 3. Historians depend on contemporary evidence for their conclusions. The Alpha Course says (or said when I attended) that there is more contemporary evidence for the existence of Jesus than Julius Caesar. This is disputed by some ( www.quora.com/Is-it-true-that-there-is-more-evidence-for-Jesus-existence-than-Julius-Caesars) but there is a huge amount of evidence for his existence and evidence that he performed miracles, but then doubters would say so does David Copperfield. There are a lot of scoffers on this thread which is hardly surprising, there were in Jesus' day and for 2,000 years since. But as for putting Christians in straight jackets that is mild compared with what some regimes in the world do to Christians. There are many sources for evidence; this link gives the simplest summary: www.americamagazine.org/faith/2018/01/11/top-10-worst-countries-christian-persecutionNevertheless the growth in Christianity continues to be huge, www.washingtonpost.com/news/acts-of-faith/wp/2015/05/20/think-christianity-is-dying-no-christianity-is-shifting-dramatically/?utm_term=.f9644e46b26c The growth in Islam is greater, according to some sources. www.pewforum.org/2015/04/02/religious-projections-2010-2050/ This link states: "Atheists, agnostics and other people who do not affiliate with any religion ...... will make up a declining share of the world’s total population."There is also a major shift between religions, with large numbers of Muslim converting to Christianity, although our media prefer to high-light the radicalization of Muslims. www.quora.com/Is-the-rate-of-conversion-to-Christianity-more-than-that-to-IslamCoke, I agree with most of what you say. I do think that the Sadducees and Pharisees saw Jesus as a threat, popular amongst the outcasts, right tag of society, and upsetting the apple cart. Interestingly Jesus referred to himself as the Son of Man, rather than the Son of God( there may have been one exception). As you say , a matter of personal opinion, whether you see him as the Messiah, a personal saviour. A few problems I have; the miracles, why do them then, God intervening to do good, why not do it now, secondly, related the one everyone has, why suffering. third the idea that an intervention many years ago in at a certain stage in history, provides God's solution for all time. 2 I was just pointing out the obvious links with Christianity and Judaism. The "Old" Testament, the idea of a Messiah, the Sabbath, Easter/Passover. I do find it significant that Jesus himself did not suggest a break with ' Judaism' as it was then. This came with the Early Church. My point about Christianity being a " branch of Judaism" was tongue in cheek. I made the point, as you have, about the difference in believing that thereISa God is different from believing IN God earlier on in the thread. 3 Agree about the historicity of Jesus hence my reference to Josephus. For me the Gospels have stood the test of time as spiritual guidance/ truthful moral code......but I know that is not what you are perhaps referring to in terms of being a born again, committed Christian, in a relationship with God through Christ. Thanks for your response. Jesus stressed he was the "Son of Man" to imply his humanity. During his ministry Jesus constantly quoted the scriptures (largely our Old Testament). He was probably referring to the book of Daniel. www.lds.org/scriptures/ot/dan/7?lang=engYou touch on one of the most perplexing issues for Christians, why does God permit so much evil. www.focusonthefamily.com/faith/becoming-a-christian/is-christ-the-only-way/how-can-god-allow-so-much-evil-and-sufferingIMO God gave man free will to believe and act as he wishes. That includes eradicating evil from the world, if we wish to. There is the allegorical tale of the very devout Christian who died and went to heaven and because he had done so much good he was granted an audience with God. God asked him if he wanted anything and the man said "There is so much evil in the world, can you tell me why you don't do something about it? " To which God replied, "I did I sent you." The point being is down to all of us to try and change the world we live in for the better.
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Post by harryburrows on Mar 26, 2018 16:41:01 GMT
Coke, I agree with most of what you say. I do think that the Sadducees and Pharisees saw Jesus as a threat, popular amongst the outcasts, right tag of society, and upsetting the apple cart. Interestingly Jesus referred to himself as the Son of Man, rather than the Son of God( there may have been one exception). As you say , a matter of personal opinion, whether you see him as the Messiah, a personal saviour. A few problems I have; the miracles, why do them then, God intervening to do good, why not do it now, secondly, related the one everyone has, why suffering. third the idea that an intervention many years ago in at a certain stage in history, provides God's solution for all time. 2 I was just pointing out the obvious links with Christianity and Judaism. The "Old" Testament, the idea of a Messiah, the Sabbath, Easter/Passover. I do find it significant that Jesus himself did not suggest a break with ' Judaism' as it was then. This came with the Early Church. My point about Christianity being a " branch of Judaism" was tongue in cheek. I made the point, as you have, about the difference in believing that thereISa God is different from believing IN God earlier on in the thread. 3 Agree about the historicity of Jesus hence my reference to Josephus. For me the Gospels have stood the test of time as spiritual guidance/ truthful moral code......but I know that is not what you are perhaps referring to in terms of being a born again, committed Christian, in a relationship with God through Christ. Thanks for your response. Jesus stressed he was the "Son of Man" to imply his humanity. During his ministry Jesus constantly quoted the scriptures (largely our Old Testament). He was probably referring to the book of Daniel. www.lds.org/scriptures/ot/dan/7?lang=engYou touch on one of the most perplexing issues for Christians, why does God permit so much evil. www.focusonthefamily.com/faith/becoming-a-christian/is-christ-the-only-way/how-can-god-allow-so-much-evil-and-sufferingIMO God gave man free will to believe and act as he wishes. That includes eradicating evil from the world, if we wish to. There is the allegorical tale of the very devout Christian who died and went to heaven and because he had done so much good he was granted an audience with God. God asked him if he wanted anything and the man said "There is so much evil in the world, can you tell me why you don't do something about it? " To which God replied, "I did I sent you." The point being is down to all of us to try and change the world we live in for the better. The Alpha course is a scourge, it did more to end my first marriage than anything else
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Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2018 16:54:47 GMT
Thanks for your response. Jesus stressed he was the "Son of Man" to imply his humanity. During his ministry Jesus constantly quoted the scriptures (largely our Old Testament). He was probably referring to the book of Daniel. www.lds.org/scriptures/ot/dan/7?lang=engYou touch on one of the most perplexing issues for Christians, why does God permit so much evil. www.focusonthefamily.com/faith/becoming-a-christian/is-christ-the-only-way/how-can-god-allow-so-much-evil-and-sufferingIMO God gave man free will to believe and act as he wishes. That includes eradicating evil from the world, if we wish to. There is the allegorical tale of the very devout Christian who died and went to heaven and because he had done so much good he was granted an audience with God. God asked him if he wanted anything and the man said "There is so much evil in the world, can you tell me why you don't do something about it? " To which God replied, "I did I sent you." The point being is down to all of us to try and change the world we live in for the better. The Alpha course is a scourge, it did more to end my first marriage than anything else Wasn’t that a good thing?... For her 😂
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Post by harryburrows on Mar 26, 2018 16:57:38 GMT
The Alpha course is a scourge, it did more to end my first marriage than anything else Wasn’t that a good thing?... For her 😂 Yes she went from the bitch from hell to the bitch from heaven
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Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2018 17:09:42 GMT
Wasn’t that a good thing?... For her 😂 Yes she went from the bitch from hell to the bitch from heaven I remember seeing a photo... if that was her....To be fair you were punching way above your weight harry
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