|
Post by TrentValePotter96 on Nov 20, 2017 12:14:52 GMT
What's all the winging for there was piss all wrong with that pitch at Rochdale Obviously some on here can't remember the pitches of the late sixties and seventies They never stopped best worthington osgood and Hudson to mention a few It is totally unfair to blame either Hughes or Rochdale that there so called semi god turned into a fragile show pony not suited to the rigorous challenges of modern football no offence, but nobody gives a crap about the pitches of the late 60s and 70s.
|
|
|
Post by wagsastokie on Nov 20, 2017 12:56:58 GMT
What's all the winging for there was piss all wrong with that pitch at Rochdale Obviously some on here can't remember the pitches of the late sixties and seventies They never stopped best worthington osgood and Hudson to mention a few It is totally unfair to blame either Hughes or Rochdale that there so called semi god turned into a fragile show pony not suited to the rigorous challenges of modern football no offence, but nobody gives a crap about the pitches of the late 60s and 70s. No offence taken But maybe it's time that people realised bojan is a busted flush And stoke need to shift him as quick as possible and put his wages to better use
|
|
|
Post by davejohnno1 on Nov 20, 2017 13:55:16 GMT
just a few points - Bojan was fine after his injury. Infact arguably his best spell for us come after that injury, in the false 9 role 3 in 9 last season was a very decent return, even if 2 did come from pens (It's a better record than Jese or Berahino for starters) He played well v Leicester at home last season and was rewarded by being dropped for the next game. He suffers from anxiety, and doesn't need people on here to go 'well he should be a man and get over it' style comments. In reality, the false 9 produced 3 very good performances...Man City, Man Utd and Everton. v West Ham away and in particular v WBA, it was pretty poor fare in truth and didn't work at all. Despite featuring in some very good performances, his individual form post injury was nowhere near the level it was pre injury.
|
|
|
Post by davejohnno1 on Nov 20, 2017 13:57:25 GMT
No stomach for a fight in reality. Had he stayed and fought for a place he'd have played far more than he has on loan. I don't even find it sad anymore. His golden spell was clearly the shiny blip in a career that has flattered to deceive at every club he's ever been at. It's comments like this which piss me off, he suffers from anxiety fucking hell. He was dropped after he played well, I'd leave if that happened. How is that even relevant? Anxiety or not he wasn't prepared to stay and fight for a place in the side and in truth, given how his two loan spells have turned out, he'd have played far more for us than he has done for either of his two subsequent clubs.
|
|
|
Post by The Toxic Avenger on Nov 20, 2017 13:58:01 GMT
just a few points - Bojan was fine after his injury. Infact arguably his best spell for us come after that injury, in the false 9 role 3 in 9 last season was a very decent return, even if 2 did come from pens (It's a better record than Jese or Berahino for starters) He played well v Leicester at home last season and was rewarded by being dropped for the next game. He suffers from anxiety, and doesn't need people on here to go 'well he should be a man and get over it' style comments. His best spell for us was before he got injured. No ifs, buts or maybes. He had a stormer against Citeh in the 2-0 but not one of his other performances, even the decent ones, came close to the level of pre-injury Bojan.
|
|
|
Post by bayernoatcake on Nov 20, 2017 14:44:37 GMT
It never felt right to play him. Like it was always a risk not worth taking. But again, if he hadn't played and we'd lost there'd have been all manner of crying, especially that particular weekend. Damned if he does and damned if he doesn't. There would but I've always been an advocate of reserve sides in the League Cup and early rounds of the FA Cup. It adds to the fun.
|
|
|
Post by cheeesfreeex on Nov 20, 2017 17:00:08 GMT
Needs better pitches. Everyone else broke their own Achilles on that fated surface. Nah. Bojan looked good with the braun of SJW to pull him through. Would still like to see him coming off the bench as a game changer, option instead of Shaq. Swishing Spurs goal aside, seared in me mind. Other than that. Didn't do a whole load else. I'm over him. Already. I am too but it was obvious he shouldn't have played in that game and was said so beforehand and low and behold..... I'd also argue his best games were as a number 9. Walters didn't play in that did he? But he'll go down as a flop for sure. No Walters didn't play false9, but that formation ensured Bojan had a three man midfield behind him. It was essentially 433. Again, illustrates me point about needing extra braun around him, I think. Arnie's brilliant execution of the default striker was the real key to the F9.
|
|
|
Post by bayernoatcake on Nov 20, 2017 17:05:04 GMT
I am too but it was obvious he shouldn't have played in that game and was said so beforehand and low and behold..... I'd also argue his best games were as a number 9. Walters didn't play in that did he? But he'll go down as a flop for sure. No Walters didn't play false9, but that formation ensured Bojan had a three man midfield behind him. It was essentially 433. Again, illustrates me point about needing extra braun around him, I think. Arnie's brilliant execution of the default striker was the real key to the F9. So Walters wasn't key then, excellent. Default striker? Eh? Arnie played on the left and moved from the left. He played as a left winger.
|
|
|
Post by cheeesfreeex on Nov 20, 2017 17:33:50 GMT
No Walters didn't play false9, but that formation ensured Bojan had a three man midfield behind him. It was essentially 433. Again, illustrates me point about needing extra braun around him, I think. Arnie's brilliant execution of the default striker was the real key to the F9. So Walters wasn't key then, excellent. Default striker? Eh? Arnie played on the left and moved from the left. He played as a left winger. Whatever. I stick by my contention that Bojan and Walters worked well together, epitomised by Bojan's goal vs WHU last season. The False9 worked so well because of Arnie taking up the striker role. Scored three of the four vs Manc goals.
|
|
|
Post by bayernoatcake on Nov 20, 2017 17:37:03 GMT
So Walters wasn't key then, excellent. Default striker? Eh? Arnie played on the left and moved from the left. He played as a left winger. Whatever. I stick by my contention that Bojan and Walters worked well together, epitomised by Bojan's goal vs WHU last season. The False9 worked so well because of Arnie taking up the striker role. Scored three of the four vs Manc goals. I never said they didn't work well together but you've moved the goalposts there. The false 9 didn't really work bar for three games, having no striker i.e. Someone to hoof it to when the defence and midfield were put under pressure made it so. And Arnies finishing is awful.
|
|
|
Post by TrentValePotter96 on Nov 20, 2017 18:15:56 GMT
It's comments like this which piss me off, he suffers from anxiety fucking hell. He was dropped after he played well, I'd leave if that happened. How is that even relevant? Anxiety or not he wasn't prepared to stay and fight for a place in the side and in truth, given how his two loan spells have turned out, he'd have played far more for us than he has done for either of his two subsequent clubs. usually players would be praised for wanting first team football, odd.
|
|
|
Post by davejohnno1 on Nov 20, 2017 18:40:11 GMT
How is that even relevant? Anxiety or not he wasn't prepared to stay and fight for a place in the side and in truth, given how his two loan spells have turned out, he'd have played far more for us than he has done for either of his two subsequent clubs. usually players would be praised for wanting first team football, odd. Going well for him in his search isn't it?
|
|
|
Post by TrentValePotter96 on Nov 20, 2017 19:26:06 GMT
usually players would be praised for wanting first team football, odd. Going well for him in his search isn't it? that's a different matter entirely.
|
|
|
Post by cheeesfreeex on Nov 20, 2017 23:00:45 GMT
Whatever. I stick by my contention that Bojan and Walters worked well together, epitomised by Bojan's goal vs WHU last season. The False9 worked so well because of Arnie taking up the striker role. Scored three of the four vs Manc goals. I never said they didn't work well together but you've moved the goalposts there. The false 9 didn't really work bar for three games, having no striker i.e. Someone to hoof it to when the defence and midfield were put under pressure made it so. And Arnies finishing is awful. Nah. I moved nowt. Yes but scored three in two games as the default striker. Like I said.
|
|
|
Post by crouchpotato1 on Nov 24, 2017 11:24:51 GMT
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 24, 2017 13:00:09 GMT
I never said they didn't work well together but you've moved the goalposts there. The false 9 didn't really work bar for three games, having no striker i.e. Someone to hoof it to when the defence and midfield were put under pressure made it so. And Arnies finishing is awful. Nah. I moved nowt. Yes but scored three in two games as the default striker. Like I said. We hadn't got the best midfield on earth and in a lot of cases it needed 3 to help defend. The false 9 worked well when we played on the counter and got it to Shaq/Arnie/Bojan quickly. It struggled more against teams that sat back (similar to the 343). Bojan is the best number 10 we've had since we came up, and the only one besides Ireland that we've had for 5 years. A switch to 4231 with him Shaq and Choupo/Jese depending who's in form would improve our creativity down the middle in my opinion, whether he's at 10% or 100%. We're certainly not good enough up front to be loaning out players like Bojan.
|
|
|
Post by cheeesfreeex on Nov 24, 2017 15:43:31 GMT
Nah. I moved nowt. Yes but scored three in two games as the default striker. Like I said. We hadn't got the best midfield on earth and in a lot of cases it needed 3 to help defend. The false 9 worked well when we played on the counter and got it to Shaq/Arnie/Bojan quickly. It struggled more against teams that sat back (similar to the 343). Bojan is the best number 10 we've had since we came up, and the only one besides Ireland that we've had for 5 years. A switch to 4231 with him Shaq and Choupo/Jese depending who's in form would improve our creativity down the middle in my opinion, whether he's at 10% or 100%. We're certainly not good enough up front to be loaning out players like Bojan. I reckon from the most recent evidence, particularly the firs half of last season Bojan's best efforts came off the bench, second striker kind of gig. As a starter, whilst not being solely responsible, he was complicit in the ball being losose in the final third, nowhere creative enough when on the front foot to compensate for the lack of tenacity or nouse on the defensive side, games like Spurs second half, Everton {at theirs}, Palace, Leicester, and obv Wolves. The diminutive mid 3 in the 4231 of Whelan, Allen, Bojan still gives me the fear. Not doubting Bojan's skill and ability, great player at times for us, but in the here and now can't agree with the superlatives about him. Joey Allen was a more productive and effective number 10 last season. Hughes & co said they'd tried the 343 to allow for two no10's Bojan and Shaq, but started the season Arnie Bojan Shaq behind Diouf. I don't think Bojan grasped the chance. I reckon Shaq has grasped the new formation, be a shame for me to change that. I think the 343 has been better suited against teams we had found it difficult to break down. Last season beating that kind of team became a bit of a forte. We used it against Hull, Burnley, and Watford at the very least. With that 4231 we'd become easily funnelled into dead ends against those who sat back. A 10% Bojan would be nowhere near, I don't think he'd be a starter 'fit' now, off the bench or Shaq back up. Jese's here now, looking forward to sseing a bit more of that, rather than looking back. I'm over Boje.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 24, 2017 15:54:59 GMT
^ I'm also over him.
No bromance here.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 24, 2017 16:28:01 GMT
We hadn't got the best midfield on earth and in a lot of cases it needed 3 to help defend. The false 9 worked well when we played on the counter and got it to Shaq/Arnie/Bojan quickly. It struggled more against teams that sat back (similar to the 343). Bojan is the best number 10 we've had since we came up, and the only one besides Ireland that we've had for 5 years. A switch to 4231 with him Shaq and Choupo/Jese depending who's in form would improve our creativity down the middle in my opinion, whether he's at 10% or 100%. We're certainly not good enough up front to be loaning out players like Bojan. I reckon from the most recent evidence, particularly the firs half of last season Bojan's best efforts came off the bench, second striker kind of gig. As a starter, whilst not being solely responsible, he was complicit in the ball being losose in the final third, nowhere creative enough when on the front foot to compensate for the lack of tenacity or nouse on the defensive side, games like Spurs second half, Everton {at theirs}, Palace, Leicester, and obv Wolves. The diminutive mid 3 in the 4231 of Whelan, Allen, Bojan still gives me the fear. Not doubting Bojan's skill and ability, great player at times for us, but in the here and now can't agree with the superlatives about him. Joey Allen was a more productive and effective number 10 last season. Hughes & co said they'd tried the 343 to allow for two no10's Bojan and Shaq, but started the season Arnie Bojan Shaq behind Diouf. I don't think Bojan grasped the chance. I reckon Shaq has grasped the new formation, be a shame for me to change that. I think the 343 has been better suited against teams we had found it difficult to break down. Last season beating that kind of team became a bit of a forte. We used it against Hull, Burnley, and Watford at the very least. With that 4231 we'd become easily funnelled into dead ends against those who sat back. A 10% Bojan would be nowhere near, I don't think he'd be a starter 'fit' now, off the bench or Shaq back up. Jese's here now, looking forward to sseing a bit more of that, rather than looking back. I'm over Boje. In that Leicester game you mention i thought he was very good, along with Imbula. Remember he was meh against palace and Everton, Wolves could've taken any of our players' starting positions away from them. Joe Allen was an awful number ten who got a few goals when we were playing awful football and with no drive or creativity in the middle of midfield. He was ineffective and wasted, barring that little purple patch. His effect on the team when playing in that position was far more than his purple patch was worth. It was made for Bojan and Shaq this season, but he played one game. Hughes' tendency to give up on flair players forever almost at a whim is baffling. When last season we had no drive from midfield and our midfield was awful, he refused to try Imbula, refused to try Bojan, refused to move from 2/3 from Cameron Allen Whelan as a ridiculously negative midfield was slaughtered again and again, forcing all our creative play to Arnie and Shaq/Ramadan, who were doubled up on easily by opposition. The 343 tends to leave us with not enough in attack, forces our wing backs and midfielders to push up against lower teams, and we end up being broken on anyway, which is what it's made to stop. The 4231 gives 4 attacking players to try and break down the opposition, and still leaves 2 defensive midfielders back to defend. It also doesnt require wing backs which we don't have. I think a run of games (which he hasn't had since 2015/16, when he was our second top scorer) would lead him back into the groove and he'd have at least a chance of helping us attacking wise, so we don't have to rely on an attack which is basically Shaqiri doing everything himself.
|
|
|
Post by cheeesfreeex on Nov 24, 2017 16:44:55 GMT
I reckon from the most recent evidence, particularly the firs half of last season Bojan's best efforts came off the bench, second striker kind of gig. As a starter, whilst not being solely responsible, he was complicit in the ball being losose in the final third, nowhere creative enough when on the front foot to compensate for the lack of tenacity or nouse on the defensive side, games like Spurs second half, Everton {at theirs}, Palace, Leicester, and obv Wolves. The diminutive mid 3 in the 4231 of Whelan, Allen, Bojan still gives me the fear. Not doubting Bojan's skill and ability, great player at times for us, but in the here and now can't agree with the superlatives about him. Joey Allen was a more productive and effective number 10 last season. Hughes & co said they'd tried the 343 to allow for two no10's Bojan and Shaq, but started the season Arnie Bojan Shaq behind Diouf. I don't think Bojan grasped the chance. I reckon Shaq has grasped the new formation, be a shame for me to change that. I think the 343 has been better suited against teams we had found it difficult to break down. Last season beating that kind of team became a bit of a forte. We used it against Hull, Burnley, and Watford at the very least. With that 4231 we'd become easily funnelled into dead ends against those who sat back. A 10% Bojan would be nowhere near, I don't think he'd be a starter 'fit' now, off the bench or Shaq back up. Jese's here now, looking forward to sseing a bit more of that, rather than looking back. I'm over Boje. In that Leicester game you mention i thought he was very good, along with Imbula. Remember he was meh against palace and Everton, Wolves could've taken any of our players' starting positions away from them. Joe Allen was an awful number ten who got a few goals when we were playing awful football and with no drive or creativity in the middle of midfield. He was ineffective and wasted, barring that little purple patch. His effect on the team when playing in that position was far more than his purple patch was worth. It was made for Bojan and Shaq this season, but he played one game. Hughes' tendency to give up on flair players forever almost at a whim is baffling. When last season we had no drive from midfield and our midfield was awful, he refused to try Imbula, refused to try Bojan, refused to move from 2/3 from Cameron Allen Whelan as a ridiculously negative midfield was slaughtered again and again, forcing all our creative play to Arnie and Shaq/Ramadan, who were doubled up on easily by opposition. The 343 tends to leave us with not enough in attack, forces our wing backs and midfielders to push up against lower teams, and we end up being broken on anyway, which is what it's made to stop. The 4231 gives 4 attacking players to try and break down the opposition, and still leaves 2 defensive midfielders back to defend. It also doesnt require wing backs which we don't have. I think a run of games (which he hasn't had since 2015/16, when he was our second top scorer) would lead him back into the groove and he'd have at least a chance of helping us attacking wise, so we don't have to rely on an attack which is basically Shaqiri doing everything himself. Nah. He was hooked in the Leicester game, it started passing him by, like an empty carrier bag. I reckon he had plenty of opportunities, get a sense he didn't take well to the idea of the bench and working his way off it {speculation}. don't think he was dropped on a whim. You love him. Joe Allen saved our season. I think the 343 done well gives more attacking threat, creates more chances, we don't always do it well, but even when not doing it well we've done ok. The back four vs Man City was no better/less leaky. I reckon the 343 was postponed that season because Arnie stayed. So 4231 It's been in the background since. I'm all for it.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 24, 2017 19:26:33 GMT
In that Leicester game you mention i thought he was very good, along with Imbula. Remember he was meh against palace and Everton, Wolves could've taken any of our players' starting positions away from them. Joe Allen was an awful number ten who got a few goals when we were playing awful football and with no drive or creativity in the middle of midfield. He was ineffective and wasted, barring that little purple patch. His effect on the team when playing in that position was far more than his purple patch was worth. It was made for Bojan and Shaq this season, but he played one game. Hughes' tendency to give up on flair players forever almost at a whim is baffling. When last season we had no drive from midfield and our midfield was awful, he refused to try Imbula, refused to try Bojan, refused to move from 2/3 from Cameron Allen Whelan as a ridiculously negative midfield was slaughtered again and again, forcing all our creative play to Arnie and Shaq/Ramadan, who were doubled up on easily by opposition. The 343 tends to leave us with not enough in attack, forces our wing backs and midfielders to push up against lower teams, and we end up being broken on anyway, which is what it's made to stop. The 4231 gives 4 attacking players to try and break down the opposition, and still leaves 2 defensive midfielders back to defend. It also doesnt require wing backs which we don't have. I think a run of games (which he hasn't had since 2015/16, when he was our second top scorer) would lead him back into the groove and he'd have at least a chance of helping us attacking wise, so we don't have to rely on an attack which is basically Shaqiri doing everything himself. Nah. He was hooked in the Leicester game, it started passing him by, like an empty carrier bag. I reckon he had plenty of opportunities, get a sense he didn't take well to the idea of the bench and working his way off it {speculation}. don't think he was dropped on a whim. You love him. Joe Allen saved our season. I think the 343 done well gives more attacking threat, creates more chances, we don't always do it well, but even when not doing it well we've done ok. The back four vs Man City was no better/less leaky. I reckon the 343 was postponed that season because Arnie stayed. So 4231 It's been in the background since. I'm all for it. He came off because we were 2-0 up and started to look leaky. He is the sort of player who isn't always going to be affecting the game, that's what people don't like. Which is okay but i'd rather someone who does that in my team than a team full of players who are no more than 6/10 for the whole game (and we weren't even as good as 6/10 last year). I do think he's a very good player, yep. Doesnt really mean my opinions are wrong, also doesn't mean the problems I'm suggesting aren't evident in the squad. Grant did, and Crouch's goals. Our season shouldn't have needed saving, but Hughes decided to shit himself because we conceded goals, and from that moment on only Arnie was a flair player who constantly started. I remember over christmas he even extended it to dropping Shaqiri for 6 or so games. He shit himself in 2016 and hasn't trusted flair players since. It does, but we don't have wing backs to create those chances, so it ends up just being Shaq doing his best alone. The back four was also vs Man City, I'd have stay 343 for it, and be 4231 against lower sides, so we have more players forward and a proper sitting midfield for the break. I'd probably say you're right there, although I'm sure the defenders we had at the time meant he wasn't as bothered with it, along with the catastrophic landslide of Glen Johnson's abilities as a footballer.
|
|
|
Post by cheeesfreeex on Nov 24, 2017 20:08:12 GMT
Nah. He was hooked in the Leicester game, it started passing him by, like an empty carrier bag. I reckon he had plenty of opportunities, get a sense he didn't take well to the idea of the bench and working his way off it {speculation}. don't think he was dropped on a whim. You love him. Joe Allen saved our season. I think the 343 done well gives more attacking threat, creates more chances, we don't always do it well, but even when not doing it well we've done ok. The back four vs Man City was no better/less leaky. I reckon the 343 was postponed that season because Arnie stayed. So 4231 It's been in the background since. I'm all for it. He came off because we were 2-0 up and started to look leaky. He is the sort of player who isn't always going to be affecting the game, that's what people don't like. Which is okay but i'd rather someone who does that in my team than a team full of players who are no more than 6/10 for the whole game (and we weren't even as good as 6/10 last year). I do think he's a very good player, yep. Doesnt really mean my opinions are wrong, also doesn't mean the problems I'm suggesting aren't evident in the squad. Grant did, and Crouch's goals. Our season shouldn't have needed saving, but Hughes decided to shit himself because we conceded goals, and from that moment on only Arnie was a flair player who constantly started. I remember over christmas he even extended it to dropping Shaqiri for 6 or so games. He shit himself in 2016 and hasn't trusted flair players since. It does, but we don't have wing backs to create those chances, so it ends up just being Shaq doing his best alone. The back four was also vs Man City, I'd have stay 343 for it, and be 4231 against lower sides, so we have more players forward and a proper sitting midfield for the break. I'd probably say you're right there, although I'm sure the defenders we had at the time meant he wasn't as bothered with it, along with the catastrophic landslide of Glen Johnson's abilities as a footballer. I respect your opinions mate. I disagree with the over playing of the Hughes shit himself thing. He started the season with a funky looking side that I think given different circs could have looked something along the lines of Butland Johnson Shawcross Muniesa Pieters Allen Imbula Shaq Bojan Arnautovic Berahino Not wishing to dwell on the past tooo much, but... As ever} I thought we started last season pretty well, particularly those home {losses} Man City and Spurs, we looked great going forward but the soft underbelly was plain then. It couldn't have continued just for the sake of aesthetics. A combination of injuries, a flair/project player too many, culminating in the CP game, meant that a more pragmatic approach was needed. And worked {Cameron for Bojan essentially}. It wasn'y actually that much of a compromise, Shaq's continuing niggles had a bigger impact on our creativity than dropping Boj did. Nevertheless once the 'ship' had been steadied. Hughes went again, integrating Imbula and Bojan, and doing 343/352. Imbula Mom contending Burnley Watford. It's a massive shame neither came off. etc etc... Christmas Wolf attack was a bit mind blowing, could see Hughes blowing a stack over that. More steam than from the sprouts in the pressure cooker and that. Hughes is all about getting footballers to play better, front foot football, I like the fact he's adding more 'nuts & bolts', bundled/forced and set piece goals etc. I don't get the anti-flair vibe, but you do have to earn your right to play in games at this level, it's true, cliche or not. There's been times when being all flair without the fundamentals got us the square root, it is a balance. Oh yes and the slide of Glen is a shame, never quite smashed it, though an initial attacking breath of fresh air. Another who's done nowt since about Wolves time. Though he did have a pretty good first half against Hull at ours as rwb. That's all though. If it was to be a back four for any game it would have to be a 433 for me. 4231 that puts Shaq out wide {or in the middle as a 10} and Johns/Cameron/Pieters back in the flying fullback thing is off beam. I don't think we're far off as a squad, the reported couple of missed targets would have sealed it no doubt {we've got xmas.} Don't wish really to hang it all on Saido, but if he looked like one goal in three or four, we'd be set. No easy answer to that etc. It's not about the creativity around him. Personally willing to see if cameos/sub etc starts to pay off.
|
|
|
Post by lawrieleslie on Nov 25, 2017 9:14:01 GMT
no offence, but nobody gives a crap about the pitches of the late 60s and 70s. No offence taken But maybe it's time that people realised bojan is a busted flush And stoke need to shift him as quick as possible and put his wages to better use Along with Imbula and Berahino Why was Bojan's contract extended by two years to 2020?
|
|