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Post by bigjohnritchie on Feb 26, 2019 20:10:50 GMT
Both major parties have lied and deceived the British public and they know it, no matter how they dress it up.....at least some members of each party are reminding the others. So basically in the future it doesn't matter whatsoever which politicians we vote for, which party, what promises are made, what the manifestos are...... because the system now is that none of that matters at all......once we have the power, we do what we want
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Post by trickydicky73 on Feb 26, 2019 20:17:29 GMT
Not at all. They gave him an easier ride than Dennis Hopper. Can you point to any examples of him getting lighter questioning than people from other parties? I'm not disagreeing that the system is corrupt btw. No, just an impression I got, mate.
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Post by The Drunken Communist on Feb 26, 2019 20:33:11 GMT
Both major parties have lied and deceived the British public and they know it, no matter how they dress it up.....at least some members of each party are reminding the others. So basically in the future it doesn't matter whatsoever which politicians we vote for, which party, what promises are made, what the manifestos are...... because the system now is that none of that matters at all......once we have the power, we do what we want The saddest thing for me, BigJohn, is how silent the remain voters are about it all. It should be something which united the 'average Joe' population of this country to say "NO! We live in a democracy & you will not overrule us, our voice will not be silenced!" But instead they're all keeping quiet 'cos it means they'll get their way... This time. What was that famous old saying that ended with "Then they came for me, and there was no one left to speak for me." The remain voters who're silent over what is happening to us should be very wary of where this will lead us.
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Post by probably on Feb 26, 2019 20:36:21 GMT
Both major parties have lied and deceived the British public and they know it, no matter how they dress it up.....at least some members of each party are reminding the others. So basically in the future it doesn't matter whatsoever which politicians we vote for, which party, what promises are made, what the manifestos are...... because the system now is that none of that matters at all......once we have the power, we do what we want The saddest thing for me, BigJohn, is how silent the remain voters are about it all. It should be something which united the 'average Joe' population of this country to say "NO! We live in a democracy & you will not overrule us, our voice will not be silenced!" But instead they're all keeping quiet 'cos it means they'll get their way... This time. What was that famous old saying that ended with "Then they came for me, and there was no one left to speak for me." The remain voters who're silent over what is happening to us should be very wary of where this will lead us. The system dictates that those with power only get what they want when they know exactly what they want. Nobody knew what the public voted FOR with Brexit, only AGAINST, because it was a binary vote.
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Post by The Drunken Communist on Feb 26, 2019 20:38:58 GMT
The system dictates that those with power only get what they want when they know exactly what they want. Nobody knew what the public voted FOR with Brexit, only AGAINST, because it was a binary vote. Sigh. I see sad act's back. People voted FOR leaving the European Union.
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Post by vokeswagen on Feb 26, 2019 20:47:50 GMT
Can you point to any examples of him getting lighter questioning than people from other parties? I'm not disagreeing that the system is corrupt btw. No, just an impression I got, mate. Fair enough mate, agree to disagree and all that
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Post by Deleted on Feb 26, 2019 20:49:58 GMT
Both major parties have lied and deceived the British public and they know it, no matter how they dress it up.....at least some members of each party are reminding the others. So basically in the future it doesn't matter whatsoever which politicians we vote for, which party, what promises are made, what the manifestos are...... because the system now is that none of that matters at all......once we have the power, we do what we want Well said John
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Post by pearo on Feb 26, 2019 20:53:56 GMT
The saddest thing for me, BigJohn, is how silent the remain voters are about it all. It should be something which united the 'average Joe' population of this country to say "NO! We live in a democracy & you will not overrule us, our voice will not be silenced!" But instead they're all keeping quiet 'cos it means they'll get their way... This time. What was that famous old saying that ended with "Then they came for me, and there was no one left to speak for me." The remain voters who're silent over what is happening to us should be very wary of where this will lead us. The system dictates that those with power only get what they want when they know exactly what they want. Nobody knew what the public voted FOR with Brexit, only AGAINST, because it was a binary vote. Remain - Keep the status quo, stay in the same place, continue unchanged. Leave - Depart from, break connections with, withdraw from Two options with quite simple definitions, anyone who understands English knows what the options were.
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Post by trickydicky73 on Feb 26, 2019 20:54:56 GMT
No, just an impression I got, mate. Fair enough mate, agree to disagree and all that Exactly. Totally agree.
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Post by mrcoke on Feb 26, 2019 23:36:52 GMT
Apart from loss of the rebate, creation of a European President and army, which we know some countries use against their citizens, anyone who is still thinking that staying in the EU in in our best interests should carefully read this article on future EU economic policy: europeanmovement.eu/future-of-europe-deepening-the-economic-and-monetary-union/I draw your attention to: The aim must be to take joint steps towards a deeper Economic and Monetary Union. This means that all Member States need to be on board going forward, as the goal is for all Member States to eventually join the Eurozone.Clearer decision-making also warrants the appointment of a Eurozone Finance Minister with stronger executive powers, who would assume the functions of Eurogroup chair and Commission Vice President for Economic and Monetary Affairs, be the internal and external representative of the Eurozone, supervise Member States’ budget policies, coordinate economic and fiscal policies, manage a new Eurozone budget, and handle crisis situations.
"Keeping the status quo" is not an option. The EU is on a march towards total central control of member states.
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Post by neworleanstokie on Feb 27, 2019 2:39:19 GMT
Both major parties have lied and deceived the British public and they know it, no matter how they dress it up.....at least some members of each party are reminding the others. So basically in the future it doesn't matter whatsoever which politicians we vote for, which party, what promises are made, what the manifestos are...... because the system now is that none of that matters at all......once we have the power, we do what we want The saddest thing for me, BigJohn, is how silent the remain voters are about it all. It should be something which united the 'average Joe' population of this country to say "NO! We live in a democracy & you will not overrule us, our voice will not be silenced!" But instead they're all keeping quiet 'cos it means they'll get their way... This time. What was that famous old saying that ended with "Then they came for me, and there was no one left to speak for me." The remain voters who're silent over what is happening to us should be very wary of where this will lead us. Not from me mate.... obviously I’m a Remainer but the latest shenanigans is total BS... hard Brexit March 29th... that’s what you lot vote for and ... fairs fair Won
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Post by PotterLog on Feb 27, 2019 3:20:29 GMT
Brexit was NOT about a deal, how many bastard times does this need to be said?! David Cameron does not mention a deal because BREXIT WAS NOT ABOUT A DEAL, it was about do we want to leave or remain, we said leave. Ever since this moment they've tried everything they can to make sure we don't leave. You are correct, the referendum was not about a deal. And you are correct, it was about leaving or remaining. Therefore 17 million people voted to leave the EU without knowing *anything* about what our future relationship with the EU, or lack thereof, would be - and indeed having conflicting visions of it, as polling now shows. I respect the will of the people and I respect the Leave vote, but please take a look at yourselves. You voted us into this position, at least have a bit of conviction in it. I’m afraid “oh well I never thought it would turn out like this” and washing your hands of the whole thing doesn’t really cut it.
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Post by PotterLog on Feb 27, 2019 3:30:02 GMT
The system dictates that those with power only get what they want when they know exactly what they want. Nobody knew what the public voted FOR with Brexit, only AGAINST, because it was a binary vote. Remain - Keep the status quo, stay in the same place, continue unchanged. Leave - Depart from, break connections with, withdraw from Two options with quite simple definitions, anyone who understands English knows what the options were. Leave = depart from, ok... Leave = withdraw from, ok... To go along with your simplification, can you give an example in simple English where the word “leave” means “break connections with”?
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Post by pearo on Feb 27, 2019 7:17:49 GMT
Remain - Keep the status quo, stay in the same place, continue unchanged. Leave - Depart from, break connections with, withdraw from Two options with quite simple definitions, anyone who understands English knows what the options were. Leave = depart from, ok... Leave = withdraw from, ok... To go along with your simplification, can you give an example in simple English where the word “leave” means “break connections with”? It’s in the Cambridge English Dictionary under the section Leave ( verb) to end relationship Happy to help you.
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Post by mrcoke on Feb 27, 2019 7:40:58 GMT
Leave = depart from, ok... Leave = withdraw from, ok... To go along with your simplification, can you give an example in simple English where the word “leave” means “break connections with”? It’s in the Cambridge English Dictionary under the section Leave ( verb) to end relationship Happy to help you. You are not wrong, but I don't think that we wanted "to end relationship". I think we voted to cease to be a member of the EU. The reasons people voted to leave were various, i.e. recover sovereignty, stop freedom of movement of EU citizens, control immigration, establish better trading relations with the rest of the world, and more. It was up to the civil servants and politicians to sort out a relationship after we had left, not to determine "how much" we leave the EU. Personally I want us to be the same as Canada, Australia, etc. and have a zero tariff trade agreement as just been agreed with Japan. But the EU are implacably opposed to that because if the UK leave without being "punished" then other countries will question what is the point of being a member and leave as well.
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Post by Northy on Feb 27, 2019 8:44:56 GMT
Exactly, he doesn't mention a deal, he says "there will be NO renegotiation, leave means leave " I won't list the full 45 minute speech. I don't think you're grasping the issue here. The hypothetical "renegotiation" he talks about is what some people thought might happen in the event of a Leave vote, i.e. "we'll vote to leave but then we can renegotiate our membership with (or have another referendum on) the EU". I'm not making any argument that people haven't been sold down the river in that regard. My issue is with you saying that people "voted for no deal", which they didn't do any more than they voted for May's deal or any other deal. People voted to Leave. May's deal is leaving. No deal is leaving. There are a hundred other ways we could leave where we are weakened partners, subordinate to the EU in every way but don't have any membership status or MEPs - it's still leaving. That's what people voted for. if you listened to his and all people like Gideon explaining what leave would mean during the campaign then they knew exactly what it meant, we would be leaving all parts of the EU, the single market, ECJ etc.
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Post by Northy on Feb 27, 2019 8:51:54 GMT
Brexit was NOT about a deal, how many bastard times does this need to be said?! David Cameron does not mention a deal because BREXIT WAS NOT ABOUT A DEAL, it was about do we want to leave or remain, we said leave. Ever since this moment they've tried everything they can to make sure we don't leave. You are correct, the referendum was not about a deal. And you are correct, it was about leaving or remaining. Therefore 17 million people voted to leave the EU without knowing *anything* about what our future relationship with the EU, or lack thereof, would be - and indeed having conflicting visions of it, as polling now shows. I respect the will of the people and I respect the Leave vote, but please take a look at yourselves. You voted us into this position, at least have a bit of conviction in it. I’m afraid “oh well I never thought it would turn out like this” and washing your hands of the whole thing doesn’t really cut it. If you remeber George OSborne, Ed Balls and Vincent Cable all standing together on a platform and saying exactly what it would mean, we would have to revert to WTO rules for up to 10 years, there would be a £30 billion hole in his budget, etc. etc. maybe because you are far away you didnt see it all, but it was all explained.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2019 9:08:14 GMT
After watching and listening to a lot of the shenanigans in the House of Conmen during the last few months, and yesterday's concession by May to a "possible" (ha ha ha) delay, I'm more certain than ever now that if (massive IF) we are ever allowed to leave, it will only be with the biggest, closest BRINO possible. Forget No Deal.
These shysters have systematically objected, moaned, cried, wailed, stalled, delayed, defeated, manoeuvred, and basically just intend to overturn the democratically obtained result of the biggest vote in U.K. political history, and purely because the majority of them didn't like the result. All this bullshit about a second referendum is them just deviously getting the electorate to do their dirty work for them. They're not thinking of Brexit or the country, they're trying to cover their arses so they can keep their snouts in the trough at the next G.E. They'll no doubt campaign at the next G.E. on yet another meaningless manifesto, utter endless, meaningless diatribe, appear earnest and well meaning - well they've been found out to be the utter shysters that they really are.
If it transpires that we don't leave, or it's BIG BRINO, we should all remember and show them what we do think of them. Only problem is who else is there to vote for ?
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Post by rogerjonesisgod on Feb 27, 2019 9:13:20 GMT
Remain - Keep the status quo, stay in the same place, continue unchanged. Leave - Depart from, break connections with, withdraw from Two options with quite simple definitions, anyone who understands English knows what the options were. Leave = depart from, ok... Leave = withdraw from, ok... To go along with your simplification, can you give an example in simple English where the word “leave” means “break connections with”? This might help you. It's the EU's own Treaty Law definition of "Leaving". Article 50.3; "The Treaties shall cease to apply to the State in question from the date of entry into force of the withdrawal agreement or, failing that, two years after the notification" So that's all EU Treaties. A Clean Brexit. A WTO Brexit. A Hard Brexit. Call it what you like. By EU law a Nation State doesn't have to wait for a WA to be agreed to leave the EU. That's why having to agree to or agree what a "deal" would look like wasn't a proviso to voting Leave.
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Post by PotterLog on Feb 27, 2019 10:40:01 GMT
Leave = depart from, ok... Leave = withdraw from, ok... To go along with your simplification, can you give an example in simple English where the word “leave” means “break connections with”? It’s in the Cambridge English Dictionary under the section Leave ( verb) to end relationship Happy to help you. So not “break connections with” then. People end relationships all the time without breaking all connections, for example if there are kids involved. It doesn’t mean the same thing. You’ve conveniently slipped it into your definition because it supports the idea that everyone knew that Leave would imply no deal.
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Post by PotterLog on Feb 27, 2019 10:52:00 GMT
I don't think you're grasping the issue here. The hypothetical "renegotiation" he talks about is what some people thought might happen in the event of a Leave vote, i.e. "we'll vote to leave but then we can renegotiate our membership with (or have another referendum on) the EU". I'm not making any argument that people haven't been sold down the river in that regard. My issue is with you saying that people "voted for no deal", which they didn't do any more than they voted for May's deal or any other deal. People voted to Leave. May's deal is leaving. No deal is leaving. There are a hundred other ways we could leave where we are weakened partners, subordinate to the EU in every way but don't have any membership status or MEPs - it's still leaving. That's what people voted for. if you listened to his and all people like Gideon explaining what leave would mean during the campaign then they knew exactly what it meant, we would be leaving all parts of the EU, the single market, ECJ etc. Which is to say that the reason *all* Leave voters voted Leave was that they were listening to what the Remain politicians were saying (Project Fear?), and nobody believed the promises of easy trade agreements etc coming from their own side. Even if I give you your point, you still have to explain the large numbers of Leave voters - something like 4-5 million as a conservative estimate - that really don’t want no deal.
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Post by rogerjonesisgod on Feb 27, 2019 11:51:36 GMT
WTO agreement secures £1.3 trillion market for British contractors - Gov.uk "The WTO has today confirmed that British businesses will be able to continue bidding for public sector contracts around the world after the UK leaves the EU." "[The UK] will take up its independent seat in Geneva after exit day." "the UK will join the Government Procurement Agreement (GPA) as an independent member" "Independent" Giddy with excitement I am. Giddy I tell you.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2019 12:01:08 GMT
WTO agreement secures £1.3 trillion market for British contractors - Gov.uk "The WTO has today confirmed that British businesses will be able to continue bidding for public sector contracts around the world after the UK leaves the EU." "[The UK] will take up its independent seat in Geneva after exit day." "the UK will join the Government Procurement Agreement (GPA) as an independent member" "Independent" Giddy with excitement I am. Giddy I tell you. Oh dear, best not let Bliar, Soubry, and all the other shysters hear that ! They will NOT be happy ! Operation Fear/Remain will no doubt step up yet another gear now.
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Post by lawrieleslie on Feb 27, 2019 12:12:52 GMT
Brexit was NOT about a deal, how many bastard times does this need to be said?! David Cameron does not mention a deal because BREXIT WAS NOT ABOUT A DEAL, it was about do we want to leave or remain, we said leave. Ever since this moment they've tried everything they can to make sure we don't leave. You are correct, the referendum was not about a deal. And you are correct, it was about leaving or remaining. Therefore 17 million people voted to leave the EU without knowing *anything* about what our future relationship with the EU, or lack thereof, would be - and indeed having conflicting visions of it, as polling now shows. I respect the will of the people and I respect the Leave vote, but please take a look at yourselves. You voted us into this position, at least have a bit of conviction in it. I’m afraid “oh well I never thought it would turn out like this” and washing your hands of the whole thing doesn’t really cut it. That’s plainly not true. We have been put into this position by disgraceful antics of the likes of Miller, Blair and the MPs who have moved heaven and earth to prevent us leaving. I know this is hind sight but I now believe that leaving the EU 2 years ago would have put us in a much stronger position than we are now to negotiate trade and customs issues and all the rest of the stuff that’s now preventing the clean break we voted for. It’s all too late now and we are the laughing stock of the world. This will rumble on for months and dominate parliamentary time in HoC and in the meantime there is a country to run with all its inherent problems.
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Post by pearo on Feb 27, 2019 12:15:53 GMT
It’s in the Cambridge English Dictionary under the section Leave ( verb) to end relationship Happy to help you. So not “break connections with” then. People end relationships all the time without breaking all connections, for example if there are kids involved. It doesn’t mean the same thing. You’ve conveniently slipped it into your definition because it supports the idea that everyone knew that Leave would imply no deal. You’ll have take that up with the editor of the Cambridge Dictionary, I only posted some of the meanings of the word “ Leave “ . I’m not a lexicographer but supplied a few definitions for the benefit of some people on here who seem to struggle to understand them. In the Cambridge dictionary there are 14 definitions of the verb Leave and 4 definitions of the noun Leave, each with numerous sub definitions of their own. If you look at them I’m sure you’ll find one that you are happy with. I’m perfectly happy to accept the definitons that I provided from the dictionaty.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2019 12:22:52 GMT
Rees-Mogg signals more flexible stance on Northern Ireland backstop link
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Feb 27, 2019 14:27:26 GMT
Both major parties have lied and deceived the British public and they know it, no matter how they dress it up.....at least some members of each party are reminding the others. So basically in the future it doesn't matter whatsoever which politicians we vote for, which party, what promises are made, what the manifestos are...... because the system now is that none of that matters at all......once we have the power, we do what we want The saddest thing for me, BigJohn, is how silent the remain voters are about it all. It should be something which united the 'average Joe' population of this country to say "NO! We live in a democracy & you will not overrule us, our voice will not be silenced!" But instead they're all keeping quiet 'cos it means they'll get their way... This time. What was that famous old saying that ended with "Then they came for me, and there was no one left to speak for me." The remain voters who're silent over what is happening to us should be very wary of where this will lead us. DC ,it seems like winning the argument is everything, whether it be deception or bias.....I do wonder, like you, if some ( usually left leaning) are uncomfortable with what is happening in terms of but don't really know how to handle it. An example of a neutral report order-order.com/2019/02/27/nhs-brexit-scare-report-written-diehard-remain-campaigners-former-eurocrats/amp/?__twitter_impression=true
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Post by salopstick on Feb 27, 2019 14:45:23 GMT
The saddest thing for me, BigJohn, is how silent the remain voters are about it all. It should be something which united the 'average Joe' population of this country to say "NO! We live in a democracy & you will not overrule us, our voice will not be silenced!" But instead they're all keeping quiet 'cos it means they'll get their way... This time. What was that famous old saying that ended with "Then they came for me, and there was no one left to speak for me." The remain voters who're silent over what is happening to us should be very wary of where this will lead us. DC ,it seems like winning the argument is everything, whether it be deception or bias.....I do wonder, like you, if some ( usually left leaning) are uncomfortable with what is happening in terms of but don't really know how to handle it. An example of a neutral report order-order.com/2019/02/27/nhs-brexit-scare-report-written-diehard-remain-campaigners-former-eurocrats/amp/?__twitter_impression=trueThe remainers who actually seem to be more left leaning would rather take this act of treachery by parliament than stand up against the party they are loyal too It seems to be easier to engage in the favourite past time of Tory bashing than stand up for what is right
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Post by raythesailor on Feb 27, 2019 17:05:20 GMT
The Death of Democracy.
Remain or Leave how can we have any faith in the establishment or politicians any more?
Clever manoeuvring by all sides of the political spectrum have left us in this awful mess. Immediately after the referendum I forecast it will never happen. Then I started to believe that it would. Now I just feel that the political elite have contrived to bring about this mess so that delaying and then not leaving will be the only option.
However there is now a growing swell of opinion to say enough is enough. Leave means Leave. Deal or no Deal.
These expense fiddling shithouses have sold us down the river because they did not like what the electorate told them they wanted. A biased media skilfully spinning reports and facts has not helped the dire situation we now find ourselves in.
BUT the damage is done. Joe Public is now aware of these Chatlatans and their media friends.
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Post by trickydicky73 on Feb 27, 2019 17:13:38 GMT
The remainers who actually seem to be more left leaning would rather take this act of treachery by parliament than stand up against the party they are loyal too It seems to be easier to engage in the favourite past time of Tory bashing than stand up for what is right It's a strange world, isn't it? It's almost a sin to be right wing, lately. Rees-Mogg is called an extremist for wanting to honour Brexit in it's purest form, Trump is constantly hounded, and now freedom of speech is on the ropes on social media.
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