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Post by yeokel on Feb 27, 2019 17:33:37 GMT
The Death of Democracy. Remain or Leave how can we have any faith in the establishment or politicians any more? Clever manoeuvring by all sides of the political spectrum have left us in this awful mess. Immediately after the referendum I forecast it will never happen. Then I started to believe that it would. Now I just feel that the political elite have contrived to bring about this mess so that delaying and then not leaving will be the only option. However there is now a growing swell of opinion to say enough is enough. Leave means Leave. Deal or no Deal. These expense fiddling shithouses have sold us down the river because they did not like what the electorate told them they wanted. A biased media skilfully spinning reports and facts has not helped the dire situation we now find ourselves in. BUT the damage is done. Joe Public is now aware of these sharlatans and their media friends. To be honest, I don’t think much of “the public” gives a damn. I think most ‘ordinary folk’ will simply shrug their shoulders and carry on doing what they’ve always done, regardless of the Brexit/Commons outcome. The ones who care, such as those of us who have kept this thread going, will feel betrayed, relieved, angry, apathetic or whatever other emotion matches their (our) view of things but most folk will simply move on to the next day quipping that politicians “a re only in it for themselves, always have been and always will be” and accept that they have little to no power to change things and so might as well carry on as normal. Permit me a bit of Shakespeare. Macbeth, on hearing of the death of his wife, Lady Macbeth.... She should have died hereafter; There would have been a time for such a word. Tomorrow, and tomorrow, and tomorrow, Creeps in this petty pace from day to day, To the last syllable of recorded time; And all our yesterdays have lighted fools The way to dusty death. Out, out, brief candle!
Out, out, brief candle!And thus died democracy for the common man (and woman and Trans).
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Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2019 17:39:35 GMT
Macron getting tough now "France would block Brexit delay 'without a clear objective', Macron says" link
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Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2019 17:41:48 GMT
Another article in the Evening Standard Brussels ‘will insist on delay of up to two years if UK fails to agree deal’ link
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Post by harryburrows on Feb 27, 2019 18:04:34 GMT
Macron getting tough now "France would block Brexit delay 'without a clear objective', Macron says" linkHe is absolutely right ( he's still a cunt though )
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Post by raythesailor on Feb 27, 2019 18:07:33 GMT
See my post above.
If this is true, I say again if, we have been stitched up.
Very clever manipulation. Let’s go NO DEAL.
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Post by salopstick on Feb 27, 2019 18:08:16 GMT
The Death of Democracy. Remain or Leave how can we have any faith in the establishment or politicians any more? Clever manoeuvring by all sides of the political spectrum have left us in this awful mess. Immediately after the referendum I forecast it will never happen. Then I started to believe that it would. Now I just feel that the political elite have contrived to bring about this mess so that delaying and then not leaving will be the only option. However there is now a growing swell of opinion to say enough is enough. Leave means Leave. Deal or no Deal. These expense fiddling shithouses have sold us down the river because they did not like what the electorate told them they wanted. A biased media skilfully spinning reports and facts has not helped the dire situation we now find ourselves in. BUT the damage is done. Joe Public is now aware of these sharlatans and their media friends. To be honest, I don’t think much of “the public” gives a damn. I think most ‘ordinary folk’ will simply shrug their shoulders and carry on doing what they’ve always done, regardless of the Brexit/Commons outcome. The ones who care, such as those of us who have kept this thread going, will feel betrayed, relieved, angry, apathetic or whatever other emotion matches their (our) view of things but most folk will simply move on to the next day quipping that politicians “a re only in it for themselves, always have been and always will be” and accept that they have little to no power to change things and so might as well carry on as normal. Permit me a bit of Shakespeare. Macbeth, on hearing of the death of his wife, Lady Macbeth.... She should have died hereafter; There would have been a time for such a word. Tomorrow, and tomorrow, and tomorrow, Creeps in this petty pace from day to day, To the last syllable of recorded time; And all our yesterdays have lighted fools The way to dusty death. Out, out, brief candle!
Out, out, brief candle!And thus died democracy for the common man (and woman and Trans). Some very left leaning posters on this thread have consistently argued over the result whilst posting their stories of doom and gloom I’d prefer to have an argument over the style of leave instead of always coming back to second referendum etc. And some of these who proclaimed that things would change with Corbyn.
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Post by xchpotter on Feb 27, 2019 18:08:53 GMT
Macron getting tough now "France would block Brexit delay 'without a clear objective', Macron says" linkHopefully he sticks to his word as there isn’t a clear objective and then we get kicked out with no deal.
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Post by raythesailor on Feb 27, 2019 20:09:02 GMT
Macron getting tough now "France would block Brexit delay 'without a clear objective', Macron says" linkHopefully he sticks to his word as there isn’t a clear objective and then we get kicked out with no deal. They are now taking the Piss. Two more years. How much will that cost plus the divorce settlement ? They are showing their true colours, and in the terms of Street Gangsters, “Showing No Respect”. Time to go. They can explain that to French ,Spanish and Irish farmers.
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Post by pearo on Feb 27, 2019 20:14:21 GMT
The EU now find themselves with a terrible conundrum. On the one hand they want to punish the UK for daring to vote leave and to make the split as punishing as they possibly can. On the other hand they fear the UK being strong and prosperous after leaving and fear some of their other 27 members will want to leave too.
Deep down they know the gravy train is finished but they are going to ride it for as long as they possibly can.
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Post by xchpotter on Feb 27, 2019 20:16:36 GMT
The EU now find themselves with a terrible conundrum. On the one hand they want to punish the UK for daring to vote leave and to make the split as punishing as they possibly can. On the other hand they fear the UK being strong and prosperous after leaving and fear some of their other 27 members will want to leave too. Deep down they know the gravy train is finished but they are going to ride it for as long as they possibly can. Yep, and we seem to have plenty of wankers only too willing to sell the country down the river to help them do it.
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Post by salopstick on Feb 28, 2019 10:01:52 GMT
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Post by yeokel on Feb 28, 2019 10:43:35 GMT
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Post by rogerjonesisgod on Feb 28, 2019 12:10:21 GMT
The biggest Soverign wealth fund is backing the UK to be better off out of the EU over the next generation. Massive.
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Post by rogerjonesisgod on Feb 28, 2019 12:11:28 GMT
I can't actually wait for the UK to be the Singapore of Europe.
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Post by trickydicky73 on Feb 28, 2019 12:55:46 GMT
So TDC's prediction is coming true, then? May's abysmal deal or Remain look nailed on as the only choices on the table.
Then Labour betrays the original result by calling for a second referendum, because the Tories wouldn't cave in on a customs union which was one of the reasons people voted out!
The whole thing is fucking ludicrous.
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Post by numpty40 on Feb 28, 2019 13:03:11 GMT
So TDC's prediction is coming true, then? May's abysmal deal or Remain look nailed on as the only choices on the table. Then Labour betrays the original result by calling for a second referendum, because the Tories wouldn't cave in on a customs union which was one of the reasons people voted out! The whole thing is fucking ludicrous. I posted the following almost 12 months ago to the day: "a clean Brexit was never going to happen because the politicians on all sides had no desire to make it happen. What will also happen is that such a fucking awful Brexit will be negotiated that the goverment will refer this deal back for a further vote knowing that the country wouldn't vote for those terms and the establishment stitch up is complete. Many have said from the outset that Brexit won't be allowed to happen. We were right." Read more: oatcakefanzine.proboards.com/thread/269068/brexit?page=585#ixzz5gpY1asUeIt was so obvious!!
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Post by Deleted on Feb 28, 2019 13:09:49 GMT
It's a bloody disgrace how these shysters have manipulated the whole thing to culminate in the inevitable overturn of the referendum result to suit their own agenda.
I will never vote for any of the major parties ever again. The Tories have negotiated an abysmal BRINO, and I wouldn't vote for Labour (and most certainly not Corbynski) after they have betrayed the original result, nevermind the other multitude of reasons. As for the Lib Dems, .....what do they stand for exactly ?
Democracy is well and truly dead in this country.
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Post by salopstick on Feb 28, 2019 13:28:24 GMT
It's a bloody disgrace how these shysters have manipulated the whole thing to culminate in the inevitable overturn of the referendum result to suit their own agenda. I will never vote for any of the major parties ever again. The Tories have negotiated an abysmal BRINO, and I wouldn't vote for Labour (and most certainly not Corbynski) after they have betrayed the original result, nevermind the other multitude of reasons. As for the Lib Dems, .....what do they stand for exactly ? Democracy is well and truly dead in this country. And unless the general public who voted remain actually stand up and join the leavers to campaign over such a massive disregard to democracy nothing will change. Probably to busy gloating. I’m still convinced that for the good and bad of Brexit parliament don’t have the audacity to do it.
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Post by numpty40 on Feb 28, 2019 13:33:44 GMT
It's a bloody disgrace how these shysters have manipulated the whole thing to culminate in the inevitable overturn of the referendum result to suit their own agenda. I will never vote for any of the major parties ever again. The Tories have negotiated an abysmal BRINO, and I wouldn't vote for Labour (and most certainly not Corbynski) after they have betrayed the original result, nevermind the other multitude of reasons. As for the Lib Dems, .....what do they stand for exactly ? Democracy is well and truly dead in this country. Sadly the Lib Dems are probably the only party to remain consistant throughout this debacle!!
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Post by trickydicky73 on Feb 28, 2019 13:50:08 GMT
So TDC's prediction is coming true, then? May's abysmal deal or Remain look nailed on as the only choices on the table. Then Labour betrays the original result by calling for a second referendum, because the Tories wouldn't cave in on a customs union which was one of the reasons people voted out! The whole thing is fucking ludicrous. I posted the following almost 12 months ago to the day: "a clean Brexit was never going to happen because the politicians on all sides had no desire to make it happen. What will also happen is that such a fucking awful Brexit will be negotiated that the goverment will refer this deal back for a further vote knowing that the country wouldn't vote for those terms and the establishment stitch up is complete. Many have said from the outset that Brexit won't be allowed to happen. We were right." Read more: oatcakefanzine.proboards.com/thread/269068/brexit?page=585#ixzz5gpY1asUeIt was so obvious!! Oh, I realise that and I have said it from the time of the General Election (Top Trumps!). Its just with what Labour has done, it is yet another angle to the deception. You were spot on, though. Who knows what is really said between May and the EU behind closed doors? Ironically, No Deal is being ruled out, yet you could argue that it is the closest to what people voted Brexit for. No one is mentioning Free Movement at all, even though it was a massive factor in Brexit. So neither main party is representing the people who voted Leave. What is the point in having them, then? How can you vote for someone who ignores your wishes?
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Post by yeokel on Feb 28, 2019 14:28:28 GMT
I posted the following almost 12 months ago to the day: "a clean Brexit was never going to happen because the politicians on all sides had no desire to make it happen. What will also happen is that such a fucking awful Brexit will be negotiated that the goverment will refer this deal back for a further vote knowing that the country wouldn't vote for those terms and the establishment stitch up is complete. Many have said from the outset that Brexit won't be allowed to happen. We were right." Read more: oatcakefanzine.proboards.com/thread/269068/brexit?page=585#ixzz5gpY1asUeIt was so obvious!! Oh, I realise that and I have said it from the time of the General Election (Top Trumps!). Its just with what Labour has done, it is yet another angle to the deception. You were spot on, though. Who knows what is really said between May and the EU behind closed doors? Ironically, No Deal is being ruled out, yet you could argue that it is the closest to what people voted Brexit for. No one is mentioning Free Movement at all, even though it was a massive factor in Brexit. So neither main party is representing the people who voted Leave. What is the point in having them, then? How can you vote for someone who ignores your wishes? There is more to party politics than Brexit although I know that Brexit seems to consume a vast amount of parliamentary resources at the moment. That moment will eventually pass. We should then get back to trying to decide what sort of society we wish to live in and pass on to future generations. Although the parties became too similar during the ‘90s & the '00s, there are currently many differences to be seen between the two major parties and once the Libs manage to find an effective leader (not Charles Kennedy though ) they might find that they too have something to contribute (although history would suggest otherwise). Don’t write off 2-party politics too quickly. They will see to their own survival whether we like it or not.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 28, 2019 14:35:12 GMT
It's a bloody disgrace how these shysters have manipulated the whole thing to culminate in the inevitable overturn of the referendum result to suit their own agenda. I will never vote for any of the major parties ever again. The Tories have negotiated an abysmal BRINO, and I wouldn't vote for Labour (and most certainly not Corbynski) after they have betrayed the original result, nevermind the other multitude of reasons. As for the Lib Dems, .....what do they stand for exactly ? Democracy is well and truly dead in this country. And unless the general public who voted remain actually stand up and join the leavers to campaign over such a massive disregard to democracy nothing will change. Probably to busy gloating. I’m still convinced that for the good and bad of Brexit parliament don’t have the audacity to do it. I'd like to think that you're right but I fear that now they've got the opportunity to deliver the fatal blow they will do it without a second thought. Then when the dust has settled and the Leavers moaning has abated somewhat we will be into the next G.E. and all the M.P.'s will tell us just how much they value our votes and that they fully intend to honour their manifesto blah blah blah, and so it goes on ad infinitum...........
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Post by trickydicky73 on Feb 28, 2019 14:40:01 GMT
And unless the general public who voted remain actually stand up and join the leavers to campaign over such a massive disregard to democracy nothing will change. Probably to busy gloating. I’m still convinced that for the good and bad of Brexit parliament don’t have the audacity to do it. I'd like to think that you're right but I fear that now they've got the opportunity to deliver the fatal blow they will do it without a second thought. Then when the dust has settled and the Leavers moaning has abated somewhat we will be into the next G.E. and all the M.P.'s will tell us just how much they value our votes and that they fully intend to honour their manifesto blah blah blah, and so it goes on ad infinitum........... Yes, and it will be a big "Fuck Off" from me, I am afraid. Our vote only counts when they say it does.
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Post by RipRoaringPotter on Feb 28, 2019 14:51:40 GMT
It's a bloody disgrace how these shysters have manipulated the whole thing to culminate in the inevitable overturn of the referendum result to suit their own agenda. I will never vote for any of the major parties ever again. The Tories have negotiated an abysmal BRINO, and I wouldn't vote for Labour (and most certainly not Corbynski) after they have betrayed the original result, nevermind the other multitude of reasons. As for the Lib Dems, .....what do they stand for exactly ? Democracy is well and truly dead in this country. And unless the general public who voted remain actually stand up and join the leavers to campaign over such a massive disregard to democracy nothing will change. Probably to busy gloating. I’m still convinced that for the good and bad of Brexit parliament don’t have the audacity to do it. I don't think there's a cat in hells chance of Parliament overturning Brexit on their own terms - it would have to come from 'the people', be it through another referendum or a general election where a party is elected that has a policy of staying in the EU (which is almost an impossible scenario as it would involve the Lib Dems or the Greens getting a majority). This is not because I have any faith in MPs, it's just the public backlash at the ballot box would see them lose their job - so it's purely self-survival instincts.
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Post by Absolution on Feb 28, 2019 15:16:53 GMT
Any second referendum would be carried out off the back of three years of negativity, doom and gloom and absolute fuckwittery over Brexit, meaning the outcome as things stand at the moment could only conceivably go one way.
A second referendum for me would be an enormous betrayal of democracy which I’m thinking is now utterly dead. The only plus side to a second referendum would be that the BBC would at least have to give some sort of balance to both sides which they’ve had free reign not to do since the leave campaign ‘won’ the vote.
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Post by trickydicky73 on Feb 28, 2019 15:30:46 GMT
Any second referendum would be carried out off the back of three years of negativity, doom and gloom and absolute fuckwittery over Brexit, meaning the outcome as things stand at the moment could only conceivably go one way. A second referendum for me would be an enormous betrayal of democracy which I’m thinking is now utterly dead. The only plus side to a second referendum would be that the BBC would at least have to give some sort of balance to both sides which they’ve had free reign not to do since the leave campaign ‘won’ the vote. It would also lend credence to those who believe in a stitch up. Each party, or faction within a party plays their role for two and a half years, hoping to wear the public down with No Deal scare stories and then, bang, second referendum! That's the worst of all outcomes, for me. It's basically abdicating their responsibility. "We can't decide". Fuck off, that's your job. Don't hand it back hoping we have changed our minds.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Feb 28, 2019 15:39:24 GMT
Any second referendum would be carried out off the back of three years of negativity, doom and gloom and absolute fuckwittery over Brexit, meaning the outcome as things stand at the moment could only conceivably go one way. A second referendum for me would be an enormous betrayal of democracy which I’m thinking is now utterly dead. The only plus side to a second referendum would be that the BBC would at least have to give some sort of balance to both sides which they’ve had free reign not to do since the leave campaign ‘won’ the vote. It would also lend credence to those who believe in a stitch up. Each party, or faction within a party plays their role for two and a half years, hoping to wear the public down with No Deal scare stories and then, bang, second referendum! That's the worst of all outcomes, for me. It's basically abdicating their responsibility. "We can't decide". Fuck off, that's your job. Don't hand it back hoping we have changed our minds. Tricky, you are right. It's not that they can't deliver BREXIT, it's that they don't want to. A cross party/ none party group including people like Farage, Hoey, Trice,Stuart etc would have delivered it by now and we would have a more confident Britain.
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Post by Absolution on Feb 28, 2019 15:41:40 GMT
Any second referendum would be carried out off the back of three years of negativity, doom and gloom and absolute fuckwittery over Brexit, meaning the outcome as things stand at the moment could only conceivably go one way. A second referendum for me would be an enormous betrayal of democracy which I’m thinking is now utterly dead. The only plus side to a second referendum would be that the BBC would at least have to give some sort of balance to both sides which they’ve had free reign not to do since the leave campaign ‘won’ the vote. It would also lend credence to those who believe in a stitch up. Each party, or faction within a party plays their role for two and a half years, hoping to wear the public down with No Deal scare stories and then, bang, second referendum! That's the worst of all outcomes, for me. It's basically abdicating their responsibility. "We can't decide". Fuck off, that's your job. Don't hand it back hoping we have changed our minds. A lot of things seem to have been played and timed to perfection to leave us in the situation we’re in now. I’m nay political tactician, so I don’t know if certain people are keeping their cards to their chests til a later date, but it strikes me as a bit odd how silent some of our famed Brexiteer politicians have been over this. They all seem to have slunk off into the night or started to make meek and mild noises about accepting May’s deal.
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Post by salopstick on Feb 28, 2019 16:13:29 GMT
All stems from Gove regardless of what you think of Boris
The nation moaned for years for a EU Referenum. Cameron delivered. That’s fair play
He did the right thing by resigning when he lost.
I’m not saying Boris is great but if Gove hadn’t stabbed him in the back we wouldn’t be left with a remain supporting Prime Minister.
Party politics are to blame for this.
The Labour Party in a different way the same. Corbyn should have told his remain MPs lots of in Leave areas to suck it up and support leave.
The actual terms of leaving is a whole different debate
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Post by yeokel on Feb 28, 2019 16:40:03 GMT
All stems from Gove regardless of what you think of Boris The nation moaned for years for a EU Referenum. Cameron delivered. That’s fair play He did the right thing by resigning when he lost. I’m not saying Boris is great but if Gove hadn’t stabbed him in the back we wouldn’t be left with a remain supporting Prime Minister. Party politics are to blame for this. The Labour Party in a different way the same. Corbyn should have told his remain MPs lots of in Leave areas to suck it up and support leave. The actual terms of leaving is a whole different debate I think that Boris (like most of us I suspect) didn't expect 'Leave' to win and so started looking for a way out almost straight away. Gove simply handed the opportunity to him. If he'd really believed in the cause Boris would have stood his ground and taken Gove on. Boris bottled it because he had no idea what he was going to do if he did actually become PM. (I'm not sure he's any different now).
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