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Post by Paul Spencer on Sept 24, 2019 12:48:48 GMT
Johnson live now in New York ...
"I strongly disagree with this judgement and we in the UK will not be deterred from getting on and delivering on the WILL of the people to come out of the EU on October 31st!"
Hang on a second Boris, you said that the prorogation was nothing to do with Brexit and now you've just said, that today's judgement is directly linked to it!
Who's actually writing your speeches mate?
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Post by essexstokey on Sept 24, 2019 12:49:25 GMT
Oh look, another decision imposed by unelected officials; just like being in the EU.😂 Yes Johnson and cummings should go!!
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Post by lordb on Sept 24, 2019 12:50:38 GMT
Great summary. The question is what now? As indeed it was at the start of this epic thread. Remainers MPs might like to take a moment in this moment of victory to remember that while they have won a battle the war is still ongoing. How they conduct themselves over the next few days could well determine how the war ends. In particular, they need to agree quickly on who replaces Johnson. Because he surely can't remain in post. No.10 just: "The prime minister will not be resigning". Steve Baker just: "The prime minister should prorogue parliament again". Has he really just said that? wow. the arrogance of the extreme Brexiteers goes up another level.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Sept 24, 2019 12:55:09 GMT
No.10 just: "The prime minister will not be resigning". Steve Baker just: "The prime minister should prorogue parliament again". Has he really just said that? wow. the arrogance of the extreme Brexiteers goes up another level. I paused the TV, rewound it and typed it out word for word Will. He's just proved that the courts were 100% correct in their decision. Stagerringly stupid. No wonder the government didn't offer any evidence in their defence.
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Post by M on Sept 24, 2019 12:56:39 GMT
Unlawful doesn't imply that a law has been broken it suggests that the action taken was unprecedented and taken outside of the existing laws and customs. That is to say, in contravention of the precedents set in our constitution and without justification. There isn't a Proroguing Parliament Inappropriately Act to be broken that carries some kind of criminal sentence. Again a subtle but important distinction that will be lost in the rhetoric of both sides of this debate. Basically, Boris acted outside his brief according to our constitutions and therefore that decision cannot stand, he hasn't been found guilty of anything. He's taken a decision he didn't have the power to enforce. Great summary. The question is what now? As indeed it was at the start of this epic thread. Remainers MPs might like to take a moment in this moment of victory to remember that while they have won a battle the war is still ongoing. How they conduct themselves over the next few days could well determine how the war ends. In particular, they need to agree quickly on who replaces Johnson. Because he surely can't remain in post. How I see it: - Some remainers don't want any form of leave
- Most remainers will accept a deal that isn't viewed as a train wreck (no deal)
- Most leavers want a deal that isn't a train wreck
- Some leavers want leave no matter what (no deal)
The middle ground is the only place that is workable and has been from day one. That's actually in credit to her for once what May actually negotiated with the WA. This has always been about leavers compromising as remainers largely already have. It's wrong to say leavers didn't know what they voted for, they did, it was just different things to each other depending on how they thought leave looked... I've lost count of the times I've said it. The only deal that will get passed is something that is classed as a soft Brexit that's not just the HoC, that's the country because even many leavers don't want no deal. It either needs to go across party like it should have from day one or go to a public vote based on the deal we have or get imminently. It's too late take it cross party so it's either no Brexit or May's/Corbyn's (if he gets in).
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Post by numpty40 on Sept 24, 2019 12:57:00 GMT
Time will tell but I genuinely believe Johnson will emerge from this judgement with far greater public support than yesterday. Who would have thought, Boris Johnson the people's champion taking on the establishment? Too funny for words😁.
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Post by lordb on Sept 24, 2019 12:58:56 GMT
Has he really just said that? wow. the arrogance of the extreme Brexiteers goes up another level. I paused the TV, rewound it and typed it out word for word Will. He's just proved that the courts were 100% correct in their decision. Stagerringly stupid. No wonder the government didn't offer any evidence in their defence. I see their is a cabinet meeting today - without Boris - He can't last much longer
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Post by lordb on Sept 24, 2019 12:59:56 GMT
Time will tell but I genuinely believe Johnson will emerge from this judgement with far greater public support than yesterday. Who would have thought, Boris Johnson the people's champion taking on the establishment? Too funny for words😁. how on earth do you come to that conclusion?
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Post by estrangedsonoffaye on Sept 24, 2019 13:02:59 GMT
Johnson live now in New York ... "I strongly disagree with this judgement and we in the UK will not be deterred from getting on and delivering on the WILL of the people to come out of the EU on October 31st!" Hang on a second Boris, you said that the prorogation was nothing to do with Brexit and now you've just said, that today's judgement is directly linked to it! Who's actually writing your speeches mate? That sentence alone is enough to fully justify the decision of the court today. Whatever side of the divide you are on that is plainly obvious IMO.
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Post by lordb on Sept 24, 2019 13:05:30 GMT
Vote of no confidence coming probably followed by short term 'Govt. of National Unity' headed by Harriet Harman or Ken Clarke
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Post by foster on Sept 24, 2019 13:07:39 GMT
Time will tell but I genuinely believe Johnson will emerge from this judgement with far greater public support than yesterday. Who would have thought, Boris Johnson the people's champion taking on the establishment? Too funny for words😁. how on earth do you come to that conclusion? I wonder to what extremes Johnson needs to go before his supporters will acknowledge the kind of person he truly is.
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Post by henry on Sept 24, 2019 13:08:51 GMT
Vote of no confidence coming probably followed by short term 'Govt. of National Unity' headed by Harriet Harman or Ken Clarke Is that a government that nobody has voted for?
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Post by numpty40 on Sept 24, 2019 13:09:28 GMT
Time will tell but I genuinely believe Johnson will emerge from this judgement with far greater public support than yesterday. Who would have thought, Boris Johnson the people's champion taking on the establishment? Too funny for words😁. how on earth do you come to that conclusion? Like I say, time will tell but that's how he will be portrayed. It started with his first interview after the judgement, "parliamentarians don't want Brexit to happen" He will be seen as being thwarted at every turn by Parliament, Lords, supreme Court, MSM (establishment). Like I said, bizarre as it seems, Johnson will be seen as the politician who is fighting for the electorate against the establishment.
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Post by thevoid on Sept 24, 2019 13:10:52 GMT
Thank God we have such a united, credible opposition party to come and step into the breach.
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Post by followyoudown on Sept 24, 2019 13:12:14 GMT
As a leaver, I welcome the decision, Bojo went too far and needed to be slapped down. Assuming the EU agree to an extension (I can't believe they won't), then Boris can call an election effectively on a no deal Brexit and if he gets the numbers, then we will leave with the blessing of Parliament. The ramifications of allowing the prorogation to stand would have been profound and completely changed the nature of a parliamentary democracy. The concept of a PM suspending parliament because he didn't like how it was going to vote or scrutinise his bill would effectively allow the PM to turn the UK into an executive government nation when he wanted to. Completely unacceptable. You mean except parliament having the power to vote down the government of course. Parliament wont vote for a deal, wont vote for no deal, wont vote to revoke all they want to do is delay and bring in laws written in conjunction with the EU lawyers to force more delays, it will be absolutely glorious when this bunch of self serving bastards meet the ballot box
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Post by trickydicky73 on Sept 24, 2019 13:13:21 GMT
Great summary. The question is what now? As indeed it was at the start of this epic thread. Remainers MPs might like to take a moment in this moment of victory to remember that while they have won a battle the war is still ongoing. How they conduct themselves over the next few days could well determine how the war ends. In particular, they need to agree quickly on who replaces Johnson. Because he surely can't remain in post. How I see it: - Some remainers don't want any form of leave
- Most remainers will accept a deal that isn't viewed as a train wreck (no deal)
- Most leavers want a deal that isn't a train wreck
- Some leavers want leave no matter what (no deal)
The middle ground is the only place that is workable and has been from day one. That's actually in credit to her for once what May actually negotiated with the WA. This has always been about leavers compromising as remainers largely already have. It's wrong to say leavers didn't know what they voted for, they did, it was just different things to each other depending on how they thought leave looked... I've lost count of the times I've said it. The only deal that will get passed is something that is classed as a soft Brexit that's not just the HoC, that's the country because even many leavers don't want no deal. It either needs to go across party like it should have from day one or go to a public vote based on the deal we have or get imminently. It's too late take it cross party so it's either no Brexit or May's/Corbyn's (if he gets in). How have Remainers compromised, M? Not being shitty, because I think your post is probably going to be close to the mark, ie. a tweaked WA /Kinnock amendment type of thing.
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Post by followyoudown on Sept 24, 2019 13:13:55 GMT
Vote of no confidence coming probably followed by short term 'Govt. of National Unity' headed by Harriet Harman or Ken Clarke Now that sounds like a coup a govt of national unity and not a brexiter in sight, no one voted for the purpose of which is just to kick the decision down the road, good luck with that.
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Post by trickydicky73 on Sept 24, 2019 13:13:56 GMT
Vote of no confidence coming probably followed by short term 'Govt. of National Unity' headed by Harriet Harman or Ken Clarke Why not Dennis Skinner?
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Post by lordb on Sept 24, 2019 13:14:33 GMT
Vote of no confidence coming probably followed by short term 'Govt. of National Unity' headed by Harriet Harman or Ken Clarke Why not Dennis Skinner? Frank Skinner would have more credibility that Boris
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Post by trickydicky73 on Sept 24, 2019 13:15:48 GMT
Vote of no confidence coming probably followed by short term 'Govt. of National Unity' headed by Harriet Harman or Ken Clarke Now that sounds like a coup a govt of national unity and not a brexiter in sight, no one voted for the purpose of which is just to kick the decision down the road, good luck with that. Nowt would surprise me mate.
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Post by lordb on Sept 24, 2019 13:18:15 GMT
Vote of no confidence coming probably followed by short term 'Govt. of National Unity' headed by Harriet Harman or Ken Clarke Now that sounds like a coup a govt of national unity and not a brexiter in sight, no one voted for the purpose of which is just to kick the decision down the road, good luck with that. might well be however whose fault is that?
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Post by M on Sept 24, 2019 13:20:08 GMT
How I see it: - Some remainers don't want any form of leave
- Most remainers will accept a deal that isn't viewed as a train wreck (no deal)
- Most leavers want a deal that isn't a train wreck
- Some leavers want leave no matter what (no deal)
The middle ground is the only place that is workable and has been from day one. That's actually in credit to her for once what May actually negotiated with the WA. This has always been about leavers compromising as remainers largely already have. It's wrong to say leavers didn't know what they voted for, they did, it was just different things to each other depending on how they thought leave looked... I've lost count of the times I've said it. The only deal that will get passed is something that is classed as a soft Brexit that's not just the HoC, that's the country because even many leavers don't want no deal. It either needs to go across party like it should have from day one or go to a public vote based on the deal we have or get imminently. It's too late take it cross party so it's either no Brexit or May's/Corbyn's (if he gets in). How have Remainers compromised, M? Not being shitty, because I think your post is probably going to be close to the mark, ie. a tweaked WA /Kinnock amendment type of thing. Most remainers will accept a deal that isn't viewed as a train wreck (no deal)... I genuinely think most would and you can see that with how close the bag of dicks missed out last time around... Maybe there is an argument for a two tiered referendum. Something like here's May's BoD and here's Corbyn's closer allignement, maybe even a few other options. Now vote. Doesn't matter about turnout, that is the position we take and there are no options that can dilute it. Once done. Another. That deal versus remain. Nobody could complain about there being any ambiguity. I honestly think something like what Corbyn has proposed (obviously ifs and buts of him becoming a government and negotiating it) would fly out...
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Post by Paul Spencer on Sept 24, 2019 13:20:33 GMT
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Post by trickydicky73 on Sept 24, 2019 13:22:14 GMT
Now that sounds like a coup a govt of national unity and not a brexiter in sight, no one voted for the purpose of which is just to kick the decision down the road, good luck with that. might well be however whose fault is that? Parliament's as a whole. If they wanted out, they could do it in a week, or at least get the ball running. They stopped no deal quick enough. Let's see how genuine they really are.
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Post by estrangedsonoffaye on Sept 24, 2019 13:24:11 GMT
The ramifications of allowing the prorogation to stand would have been profound and completely changed the nature of a parliamentary democracy. The concept of a PM suspending parliament because he didn't like how it was going to vote or scrutinise his bill would effectively allow the PM to turn the UK into an executive government nation when he wanted to. Completely unacceptable. You mean except parliament having the power to vote down the government of course. Parliament wont vote for a deal, wont vote for no deal, wont vote to revoke all they want to do is delay and bring in laws written in conjunction with the EU lawyers to force more delays, it will be absolutely glorious when this bunch of self serving bastards meet the ballot box Parliament can't vote down or even with the government if it's not in session as a result of a prorogation. This goes beyond Brexit into the precedent this would set for future deadlocks in parliament.
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Post by trickydicky73 on Sept 24, 2019 13:26:01 GMT
There are tits on both sides of the argument, Paul. I know Remainers who thought we couldn't visit Europe if we left the EU.
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Post by trickydicky73 on Sept 24, 2019 13:28:31 GMT
Gina Miller "It's not about Brexit"! You little liar! 😁
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Post by Mendicant on Sept 24, 2019 13:28:37 GMT
If a majority of the public is both pro-Brexit and disallusioned with Parliament then Johnson goes into the next GE as Mr Brexit. That stacks the deck in his favour for the longer term no matter how bad the news looks for him today.
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Post by trickydicky73 on Sept 24, 2019 13:33:12 GMT
If a majority of the public is both pro-Brexit and disallusioned with Parliament then Johnson goes into the next GE as Mr Brexit. That stacks the deck in his favour for the longer term no matter how bad the news looks for him today. I would like to think so, but ever wondered why the Remainers have joined forces but the Leavers haven't? I smell a rat.
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Post by foster on Sept 24, 2019 13:36:51 GMT
I think the radio presenter could have been more pleasant in how he spoke to the caller tbh. Seemed a bit condescending imo. I think it's common knowledge that leavers are more interested in leaving than in Boris and his antics, but with no one else they can realistically back to deliver it there's no other alternative really. Unless of course they start changing their opinions and switch to remain, which I believe is something Starkiller has started to consider.
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