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Post by lordb on Apr 24, 2024 16:12:27 GMT
The Blue Passports were designed and made in EU by the way
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Post by foghornsgleghorn on Apr 24, 2024 16:46:36 GMT
When driving to work the money sections on the radio have industry and business leaders on to talk about their areas of expertise, time and time again they bring up, unprompted, the many negative impacts of Brexit. Seldom do any talk of benefits of Brexit.
A complete and abject failure, making most people worse off and causing deep and lasting damage to the UK
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Post by oggyoggy on Apr 24, 2024 18:04:31 GMT
The Blue Passports were designed and made in EU by the way Of course they are. Thatcher, the person the right of the Tory party who engineered Brexit love and idolise above all others, closed down our industries.
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Post by wagsastokie on Apr 24, 2024 18:21:18 GMT
The Blue Passports were designed and made in EU by the way Of course they are. Thatcher, the person the right of the Tory party who engineered Brexit love and idolise above all others, closed down our industries. Yet labour governments shut more coal mines than thatcher and all other Tory governments
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Post by foghornsgleghorn on Apr 24, 2024 18:36:55 GMT
Of course they are. Thatcher, the person the right of the Tory party who engineered Brexit love and idolise above all others, closed down our industries. Yet labour governments shut more coal mines than thatcher and all other Tory governments So you keep reminding us. And so you won't mind me reminding you that employment in the UK coal industry fell significantly more under Thatcher and the Tories than Labour.
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Post by oggyoggy on Apr 24, 2024 19:07:28 GMT
Of course they are. Thatcher, the person the right of the Tory party who engineered Brexit love and idolise above all others, closed down our industries. Yet labour governments shut more coal mines than thatcher and all other Tory governments How has the privatisation of water gone? What about energy? Thatcher makes Liz Truss seem economically competent.
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Post by 828492 on Apr 24, 2024 19:13:31 GMT
Of course they are. Thatcher, the person the right of the Tory party who engineered Brexit love and idolise above all others, closed down our industries. Yet labour governments shut more coal mines than thatcher and all other Tory governments You are aware that coal mining is an extractive industry, that mines eventually run out of workable reserves. Perhaps that, and manpower resources may account for some of the closures.
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Post by oggyoggy on Apr 24, 2024 19:16:49 GMT
Yet labour governments shut more coal mines than thatcher and all other Tory governments You are aware that coal mining is an extractive industry, that mines eventually run out of workable reserves. Perhaps that, and manpower resources may account for some of the closures. Whereas Thatcher closed working mines, flooded them so they could never be mined again and then started sourcing our coal from her husband’s coal mining companies in South Africa and other parts of Africa. It was pure corruption.
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Post by foghornsgleghorn on Apr 24, 2024 19:33:49 GMT
Yet labour governments shut more coal mines than thatcher and all other Tory governments You are aware that coal mining is an extractive industry, that mines eventually run out of workable reserves. Perhaps that, and manpower resources may account for some of the closures. Many smaller collieries closed in the late 60's as production moved to larger pits. When, for example, Foxfield was 'worked out' in '65 there were no compulsory redundancies as those who wanted to stay in the industry transferred to Florence. The coal industry was always going to decline, but what Thatcher did to entire communities goes far beyond economic arguments.
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Post by 4372 on Apr 29, 2024 16:24:39 GMT
A study of three famous writers, to show how opinion about the war in Britain changed over time.
1) Vera Brittain was born in Newcastle, and wrote about her war in Testament of Youth. In August 1914 VB was heading for Oxford, but was also well aware of the political situation. She saw Germany as an aggressor nation, urged the British government to stand by Belgium and France when the Schlieffen Plan was put into operation, and was apparently excited to see her brother Edward and his friends enlist.
In just 18 months, all four men were killed in the war. Edward, her fiance Roland, Geoffrey Thurlow and Victor Richardson. Vera changed her life, left Oxford, and served as a nurse in several hospitals in London, Malta, and Etaples. She tended to German POW’s as well as Tommies. She had become aware of the realities of war. She learns about an unofficial truce between British and German soldiers, and how a visiting British Officer ordered soldiers to shoot Germans despite the truce.
Testament of Youth has become one of the great works about The Great War, focusing on the damage wreaked upon, and the cost to, ordinary men and women. The myth of heroism and combat is replaced by a life-long commitment to the cause of pacifism. Vera Brittain’s political views, and her life were changed beyond recognition by her wartime experiences.
2) My second writer has only a tenuous link to Staffordshire. Rudyard Kipling was born in India, but he was named after the Staffordshire lake where his parents had spent days out together when they first met. By most accounts, Kipling appears to me to be an unsympathetic individual. More importantly, he has been derided as jingoistic, imperialist, racist, and misogynist. When the war broke out, he soon declared that Germany was responsible for the outbreak of war. In fact, he claimed that there were only two divisions in the world; Human Beings and Germans. Kipling helped to develop government propaganda aimed at demonising Germany, and encouraging young British men to enlist.
John Kipling, son of Rudyard, sought to join the armed forces. He was encouraged by his father, but was unsuccessful at first, because of a medical condition. He eventually did enlist, after Rudyard Kipling had sought a favour from a well-placed friend to make this possible. John Kipling was killed at the Battle of Loos in 1915, leading to untold grief for Rudyard and his wife. They searched for four years for news of John's whereabouts, until they finally accepted that he had been killed in action. Rudyard Kipling, as with Vera Brittain, now recognised the falsehoods and fallacies on which young men had been pushed to go to war, and wrote:
If any questions why we died Tell them “Because our fathers lied”
3) Staffordshire cannot claim any connection to Wilfred Owen, but he was born in Oswestry, and spent much of his life in Shrewsbury. He produced epic poetry in 1917-1918, as he tried to speak for the men in his care, to show the pity of war, as he called it. There are very few war poems which sum up the Pity of war better than this.
Dulce et Decorum Est. Bent double, like old beggars under sacks, Knock-kneed, coughing like hags, we cursed through sludge, Till on the haunting flares we turned our backs And towards our distant rest began to trudge. Men marched asleep. Many had lost their boots But limped on, blood-shod. All went lame; all blind; Drunk with fatigue; deaf even to the hoots Of tired, outstripped Five-Nines that dropped behind.
Gas! Gas! Quick, boys!—An ecstasy of fumbling, Fitting the clumsy helmets just in time; But someone still was yelling out and stumbling And flound'ring like a man in fire or lime… Dim, through the misty panes and thick green light, As under a green sea, I saw him drowning.
In all my dreams, before my helpless sight, He plunges at me, guttering, choking, drowning.
If in some smothering dreams you too could pace Behind the wagon that we flung him in, And watch the white eyes writhing in his face, His hanging face, like a devil's sick of sin; If you could hear, at every jolt, the blood Come gargling from the froth-corrupted lungs, Obscene as cancer, bitter as the cud Of vile, incurable sores on innocent tongues, — My friend, you would not tell with such high zest To children ardent for some desperate glory, The old Lie: Dulce et decorum est Pro patria mori.
A book of his poetry was published in the 1930s, with a foreword by Dylan Thomas, who wrote that Owen wanted “to show…… the foolishness, unnaturalness, horror, inhumanity and insupportabilty of war, and to expose, so that all could suffer and see the heroic lies, and the willingness of the old to sacrifice the young. There is only one war, that of men against men”
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Post by Miles Offside on Apr 29, 2024 16:53:55 GMT
Yet labour governments shut more coal mines than thatcher and all other Tory governments So you keep reminding us. And so you won't mind me reminding you that employment in the UK coal industry fell significantly more under Thatcher and the Tories than Labour. I don't think I've dreamed this, but didn't overall coal production actually increase for a while with fewer mines and miners? Anyway, regarding Brexit, once all the moaning has stopped (if it ever does) what do we do, as neither Tories nor Labour say they'll take us back in? We can carry on saving the £billions membership fee we were paying every year (why is that never mentioned?) and probably continue tweaking a few things to improve trade. And that's in everybody's interest.
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Post by stokeson on Apr 29, 2024 17:42:50 GMT
Once Labour are in they will be joining the single market in all but name. The little britainers will cry and cry but you had your chance and it was a disaster.
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Post by foghornsgleghorn on Apr 29, 2024 17:55:29 GMT
So you keep reminding us. And so you won't mind me reminding you that employment in the UK coal industry fell significantly more under Thatcher and the Tories than Labour. I don't think I've dreamed this, but didn't overall coal production actually increase for a while with fewer mines and miners? Anyway, regarding Brexit, once all the moaning has stopped (if it ever does) what do we do, as neither Tories nor Labour say they'll take us back in? We can carry on saving the £billions membership fee we were paying every year (why is that never mentioned?) and probably continue tweaking a few things to improve trade. And that's in everybody's interest. The numbers on coal output and employment are detailed here: ourworldindata.org/death-uk-coalourworldindata.org/grapher/employment-in-the-coal-industry-in-the-united-kingdomRegarding post-Brexit we won't be going back in for a generation, possibly ever, but even as I type the latest impacts (fresh food border checks) are being discussed on the News. It remains absolutely relevant for discussion because our trading relationship with our largest trading partner matters. The talk of Brexit supporters of the UK forging ahead on the world stage with successful new relationships is being shown to be complete nonsense and Brexit has done irreparable damage to the UK's global standing. As regards the EU membership fee, that was about £8 billion a year net. The UK economy is currently 4-5% smaller than it would have been thanks to Brexit hitting UK exports by £23 billion a quarter.
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Post by Miles Offside on Apr 30, 2024 16:59:43 GMT
I don't think I've dreamed this, but didn't overall coal production actually increase for a while with fewer mines and miners? Anyway, regarding Brexit, once all the moaning has stopped (if it ever does) what do we do, as neither Tories nor Labour say they'll take us back in? We can carry on saving the £billions membership fee we were paying every year (why is that never mentioned?) and probably continue tweaking a few things to improve trade. And that's in everybody's interest. The numbers on coal output and employment are detailed here: ourworldindata.org/death-uk-coalourworldindata.org/grapher/employment-in-the-coal-industry-in-the-united-kingdomRegarding post-Brexit we won't be going back in for a generation, possibly ever, but even as I type the latest impacts (fresh food border checks) are being discussed on the News. It remains absolutely relevant for discussion because our trading relationship with our largest trading partner matters. The talk of Brexit supporters of the UK forging ahead on the world stage with successful new relationships is being shown to be complete nonsense and Brexit has done irreparable damage to the UK's global standing. As regards the EU membership fee, that was about £8 billion a year net. The UK economy is currently 4-5% smaller than it would have been thanks to Brexit hitting UK exports by £23 billion a quarter. Brexit wasn't a zero/sum event. It was a political decision, although its critics only talk about economics. It's disingenuous to make definitive claims about Brexit's successes or failures in these early days, as it is to ignore the effects on our economy of major international issues like the pandemic and the war in Ukraine. I wouldn't claim that Brexit has been a success because of the fact that our growth in GDP between 2016-23 was stronger than Germany's, or because a CEBR report claims the UK will be the best performing economy over the next 15 years. There have been/will be gains and losses, but we all knew that. The losses won't be anything we can't handle as a major economy. Political freedom often comes at a price. It's 8 years now since the vote to leave and it's time the self-flagellation and doom mongering stopped and we looked ahead, or do some people just enjoy it too much?
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Post by foghornsgleghorn on Apr 30, 2024 17:54:10 GMT
The numbers on coal output and employment are detailed here: ourworldindata.org/death-uk-coalourworldindata.org/grapher/employment-in-the-coal-industry-in-the-united-kingdomRegarding post-Brexit we won't be going back in for a generation, possibly ever, but even as I type the latest impacts (fresh food border checks) are being discussed on the News. It remains absolutely relevant for discussion because our trading relationship with our largest trading partner matters. The talk of Brexit supporters of the UK forging ahead on the world stage with successful new relationships is being shown to be complete nonsense and Brexit has done irreparable damage to the UK's global standing. As regards the EU membership fee, that was about £8 billion a year net. The UK economy is currently 4-5% smaller than it would have been thanks to Brexit hitting UK exports by £23 billion a quarter. Brexit wasn't a zero/sum event. It was a political decision, although its critics only talk about economics. It's disingenuous to make definitive claims about Brexit's successes or failures in these early days, as it is to ignore the effects on our economy of major international issues like the pandemic and the war in Ukraine. I wouldn't claim that Brexit has been a success because of the fact that our growth in GDP between 2016-23 was stronger than Germany's, or because a CEBR report claims the UK will be the best performing economy over the next 15 years. There have been/will be gains and losses, but we all knew that. The losses won't be anything we can't handle as a major economy. Political freedom often comes at a price. It's 8 years now since the vote to leave and it's time the self-flagellation and doom mongering stopped and we looked ahead, or do some people just enjoy it too much? The critics don't just talk about economics. They talk about the impacts on freedom to work and travel in Europe, they talk about the impacts on security, the environment, the Health Service, they talk about the loss of standing on the world stage , the failure to deliver the promised reduced immigration .... the list goes on. You are indeed correct that political freedom comes at a price.
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Post by PotteringThrough on Apr 30, 2024 22:11:24 GMT
It's 8 years now since the vote to leave and it's time the self-flagellation and doom mongering stopped and we looked ahead, or do some people just enjoy it too much? Which bit of the last 8 years has been the best for you?
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Post by Paul Spencer on Apr 30, 2024 22:52:36 GMT
The numbers on coal output and employment are detailed here: ourworldindata.org/death-uk-coalourworldindata.org/grapher/employment-in-the-coal-industry-in-the-united-kingdomRegarding post-Brexit we won't be going back in for a generation, possibly ever, but even as I type the latest impacts (fresh food border checks) are being discussed on the News. It remains absolutely relevant for discussion because our trading relationship with our largest trading partner matters. The talk of Brexit supporters of the UK forging ahead on the world stage with successful new relationships is being shown to be complete nonsense and Brexit has done irreparable damage to the UK's global standing. As regards the EU membership fee, that was about £8 billion a year net. The UK economy is currently 4-5% smaller than it would have been thanks to Brexit hitting UK exports by £23 billion a quarter. It's 8 years now since the vote to leave and it's time the self-flagellation and doom mongering stopped and we looked ahead, or do some people just enjoy it too much?
Yes I'm sure all those businesses that have gone to the wall and all those people who have lost their jobs are 'enjoying it too much'.
And just what on earth, is there to 'look ahead' to?
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Post by Miles Offside on May 1, 2024 16:32:07 GMT
Once Labour are in they will be joining the single market in all but name. The little britainers will cry and cry but you had your chance and it was a disaster. Starmer says he's not taking us back in, but seeing as he's changed his mind on virtually everything else you might well be right about us joining the single market in all but name. It was what May was trying to do before she made a mess of the whole process, aided by a remainer parliament, Speaker and a mainly hostile media. As for your sneering remark about crying about decisions we don't like, what do you think's being going on here for 8 years?
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Post by Miles Offside on May 1, 2024 16:38:03 GMT
It's 8 years now since the vote to leave and it's time the self-flagellation and doom mongering stopped and we looked ahead, or do some people just enjoy it too much? Yes I'm sure all those businesses that have gone to the wall and all those people who have lost their jobs are 'enjoying it too much'. And just what on earth, is there to 'look ahead' to?
Businesses have gone to the wall for different reasons and always will, whether we're in the EU or not.
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Post by str8outtahampton on May 1, 2024 17:10:30 GMT
Once Labour are in they will be joining the single market in all but name. The little britainers will cry and cry but you had your chance and it was a disaster. Starmer says he's not taking us back in, but seeing as he's changed his mind on virtually everything else you might well be right about us joining the single market in all but name. It was what May was trying to do before she made a mess of the whole process, aided by a remainer parliament, Speaker and a mainly hostile media. As for your sneering remark about crying about decisions we don't like, what do you think's being going on here for 8 years? Something similar to what the Little Englanders were doing for the 50 or so years leading up to the 2016 referendum.
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Post by mrcoke on May 1, 2024 17:14:52 GMT
Yes I'm sure all those businesses that have gone to the wall and all those people who have lost their jobs are 'enjoying it too much'. And just what on earth, is there to 'look ahead' to?
Businesses have gone to the wall for different reasons and always will, whether we're in the EU or not. Exactly. Membership of the EEC/EU from 1973 was a rip roaring success for the UK's steel industry: commonslibrary.parliament.uk/uk-steel-decades-of-decline/#:~:text=Sliding%20down%20the%20rankings,to%2021st%20in%20the%20world. A quarter of a million jobs lost. Succesive UK governments said it was against EU regulations to give financial support to steel, whilst other countries flouted the rules and subsidised their steel industries, ignored environmental regulations, operated cartels, etc.
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Post by wannabee on May 1, 2024 17:59:52 GMT
Businesses have gone to the wall for different reasons and always will, whether we're in the EU or not. Exactly. Membership of the EEC/EU from 1973 was a rip roaring success for the UK's steel industry: commonslibrary.parliament.uk/uk-steel-decades-of-decline/#:~:text=Sliding%20down%20the%20rankings,to%2021st%20in%20the%20world. A quarter of a million jobs lost. Succesive UK governments said it was against EU regulations to give financial support to steel, whilst other countries flouted the rules and subsidised their steel industries, ignored environmental regulations, operated cartels, etc. Without getting into the specifics, if true, the UK Government were either asleep at the wheel or had no intention of giving Financial support and used the Level Playing Field Rules as an excuse not to, take your pick.
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Post by OldStokie on May 1, 2024 18:33:12 GMT
It was probably one of the most catastrophic errors in our recent history, which has led to the huge numbers of immigrants from non- EU countries now. Big business has muddled through but it was the death knell of 1000's of small businesses both here and in the EU and has led to the loss of 1000's of jobs. And if anyone thinks we're in a better state now than before we left then they need their head examined. So well done Farage and opportunist Johnson. I hope the Champagne you were both drinking with Murdoch after the result rots your liver away. But it did open the door to Farage being a celebrity to Trump and Steve Bannon afterwards. That should tell you all you need to know about that bastard.
OS.
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Post by foghornsgleghorn on May 1, 2024 19:00:03 GMT
It was probably one of the most catastrophic errors in our recent history, which has led to the huge numbers of immigrants from non- EU countries now. Big business has muddled through but it was the death knell of 1000's of small businesses both here and in the EU and has led to the loss of 1000's of jobs. And if anyone thinks we're in a better state now than before we left then they need their head examined. So well done Farage and opportunist Johnson. I hope the Champagne you were both drinking with Murdoch after the result rots your liver away. But it did open the door to Farage being a celebrity to Trump and Steve Bannon afterwards. That should tell you all you need to know about that bastard. OS. I wouldn't be surprised if Johnson didn't drink champagne , I don't think a Leave vote was part of the plan (the plan for Johnson that is-he didn't have one for Brexit). Johnson kept the champagne for lockdown parties.
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