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Post by trickydicky73 on Dec 28, 2016 15:46:46 GMT
Genuine question, as people in the pub I watched last night's match in were bemoaning it. Is it as simple as not replacing N'Zonzi? Is it partly down to Whelan either not being good enough or deteriorating? Was Imbula just a shit signing?
In my opinion Joe Allen looks wasted in our midfield; he is a class above the rest of them. What are we lacking, and who do we need to be looking at bringing in to improve our midfield options?
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Post by boskampsflaps on Dec 28, 2016 15:49:49 GMT
Whelan is fine in this league, but he needs help, when Cameron was there he had it, when others are there it doesn't happen enough, the balance needs sorting.
I still like Imbula but some more coaching is a must.
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Post by trickydicky73 on Dec 28, 2016 15:52:08 GMT
Whelan is fine in this league, but he needs help, when Cameron was there he had it, when others are there it doesn't happen enough, the balance needs sorting. I still like Imbula but some more coaching is a must. I haven't given up on Imbula, either, but he doesn't seem very popular.
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Post by benjaminbiscuit on Dec 28, 2016 16:26:41 GMT
For me good player that he is allen and the fact we can't find the right role is affecting the team shades of Rodney marsh at Man City all those years ago .its no coincidence our best display recently was at Watford without him
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Post by Deleted on Dec 28, 2016 16:31:03 GMT
Allen aside I think it is too pedestrian. Premier League football is weird in that you need pace and power before ability.
I hate it and love technical footballers but that is what we are stuck with, and that is what you need to cut your cloth to.
Arnautovic is so good for us because not only is he a technically gifted footballer. He is as strong as an ox, never easily knocked off the ball (I remember one famous battle with John Terry at the Brit where Terry tried to barge him off the ball and ended up eating some grass...) and has a fair turn of pace.
Ngolo Kante is a prime example. Brilliant Premier League player because of what he does off the ball before what he does on it.
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Post by trickydicky73 on Dec 28, 2016 16:32:19 GMT
For me good player that he is allen and the fact we can't find the right role is affecting the team shades of Rodney marsh at Man City all those years ago .its no coincidence our best display recently was at Watford without him Bayern might agree with you there, Benji! I thought Allen was good in a midfield including Cameron and Whelan against Man. Utd as well. Are we actually missing Cameron more than some would believe?
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Post by liamo on Dec 28, 2016 16:49:47 GMT
That box to box position is probably the most important to get right, they're the extra defender and the extra forward but they have to get the balance right
Our problem is still the same as it was after losing zonz, even though we've tried to replace him on 3 occasions, all we've done is force Bojan out the team and broken our record transfer fee on a box to box that can't/won't defend, not even going to talk about V. Ginkel...
Hughes needs to sort his head out, we've got a boat load of talent but i (and many of us) have no idea what our best 11 or best formation is which that can't be right with the crop of players
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Post by wagsastokie on Dec 28, 2016 16:54:12 GMT
Whelan is fine in this league, but he needs help, when Cameron was there he had it, when others are there it doesn't happen enough, the balance needs sorting. I still like Imbula but some more coaching is a must. Better loan him out then this lot couldn't coach a tiddlywinks team
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Post by butlerstbob on Dec 28, 2016 17:09:25 GMT
The problem for me is Whelan and Imbula/Adam, I actually think Allen is fine where he is if we had two decent midfielder who could break up play and play others in when pushing forward, unfortunately Glenn offers nothing going forward and the others offer nothing defensively!
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Post by cobhamstokey on Dec 28, 2016 17:31:34 GMT
The problem for me is Whelan and Imbula/Adam, I actually think Allen is fine where he is if we had two decent midfielder who could break up play and play others in when pushing forward, unfortunately Glenn offers nothing going forward and the others offer nothing defensively! Good analysis. I really think whelans been a great servant but for me he's the biggest problem because we rely on someone who is the only DM at the club who just doesn't offer enough. Now I'm not saying GCams the answer but he offers far more energy. Of the players at the club I think our best 3 as a unit would be GCam, Affelay and Allen. They would get the best out of our front 3.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Dec 28, 2016 17:33:42 GMT
Allen is part of the problem.
He's not an attacking midfielder and we never needed him:
We neglected the areas we did need.
And we don't play the best attacking midfielder we have to get Allen in the side.
And then when Allen has played deeper he's looked awful.
Not replacing Whelan in the summer was the major factor but then it was amplified by spending 13m on a player we never had a need for.
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Post by superheroantonius on Dec 28, 2016 17:39:22 GMT
1. Sparky keeps trying to put Imbula in it
2. A real lack of menace and aggression.
3. No width, no pace. How sobhi can't get a game I have no idea
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Post by Miles Offside on Dec 28, 2016 17:41:58 GMT
Our midfield, like our squad overall is unbalanced. That's what's wrong with it.
Hughes like to set up with a 4-2-3-1 which, if the right players are in the right slots, is a good formation.
However, there's no real competition for places in the back four. If Johnson, Ryan, Bruno and Pieters are fit, they usually play, regardless of form.
The two DMs are supposed to give protection to the back. But Whelan is the only specialist DM on the books. Cameron looked half-decent when he played there before his injury, but usually we've had players like Imbula or Allen shoe-horned into a DM role which they're clearly not suited to, leaving our defence lacking the protection they would normally get in a 4-2-3-1 system.
But the main problem with our midfield is that too many of our most talented players - Bojan, Imbula, Allen, Adam, Affellay and Ireland - want to play in the middle of the attacking midfield three. I think even Shaquiri has said he prefers to play there. But only one can play there, so the rest either have to play out of position or we have a bunch of our best players on the bench.
The striker in a 4-2-3-1 also needs to be quick and mobile, ideally like a young Ricardo Fuller. But of the three strikers he's brought into the club Joselu has been sent out on loan, Bony warms the bench and Diouf is played as a wing-back.
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Post by Fred Merger on Dec 28, 2016 17:42:35 GMT
Allen is part of the problem. He's not an attacking midfielder and we never needed him: We neglected the areas we did need. And we don't play the best attacking midfielder we have to get Allen in the side. And then when Allen has played deeper he's looked awful. Not replacing Whelan in the summer was the major factor but then it was amplified by spending 13m on a player we never had a need for. Like it or not Allen will walk the player of the season awards because he and Possibly Arnautovic are miles ahead in terms of technical ability of other members of the squad.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Dec 28, 2016 17:48:27 GMT
Allen is part of the problem. He's not an attacking midfielder and we never needed him: We neglected the areas we did need. And we don't play the best attacking midfielder we have to get Allen in the side. And then when Allen has played deeper he's looked awful. Not replacing Whelan in the summer was the major factor but then it was amplified by spending 13m on a player we never had a need for. Like it or not Allen will walk the player of the season awards because he and Possibly Arnautovic are miles ahead in terms of technical ability of other members of the squad. I couldn't give a shit tbh. He's played well and deserves to be up there for it. But he's a big problem for Hughes. And it was a very TP signing of getting caught in the headlights of someone who he didn't need and has no real use for but signing him anyway.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 28, 2016 17:49:08 GMT
The one positive I can take at the moment, is Affellay being back. He knows how to pass and keep the ball, which none of the others do. I really hope he stays fit, as I really like him as a football player. Class!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 28, 2016 17:49:58 GMT
People will slag Bayern off for his comments with regards to Allen but he is right.
We never needed him, although he has played well since being here, we have shoe horned him in. Too ill disciplined for the DM role and doesn't link up play enough for the AM role.
What we should have spent money on was a DM to replace Whelan, and RM to replace Shaqiri and stick Shaqiri behind the front man where he has always looked his best.
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Post by heworksardtho on Dec 28, 2016 17:53:59 GMT
For me good player that he is allen and the fact we can't find the right role is affecting the team shades of Rodney marsh at Man City all those years ago .its no coincidence our best display recently was at Watford without him Your showing your age now 😀
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Post by cobhamstokey on Dec 28, 2016 17:55:48 GMT
People will slag Bayern off for his comments with regards to Allen but he is right. We never needed him, although he has played well since being here, we have shoe horned him in. Too ill disciplined for the DM role and doesn't link up play enough for the AM role. What we should have spent money on was a DM to replace Whelan, and RM to replace Shaqiri and stick Shaqiri behind the front man where he has always looked his best. Spot on
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Post by heworksardtho on Dec 28, 2016 17:56:00 GMT
People will slag Bayern off for his comments with regards to Allen but he is right. We never needed him, although he has played well since being here, we have shoe horned him in. Too ill disciplined for the DM role and doesn't link up play enough for the AM role. What we should have spent money on was a DM to replace Whelan, and RM to replace Shaqiri and stick Shaqiri behind the front man where he has always looked his best. He's shook up our midfield and his goals have been a massive bonus for us , without him we would be in the bottom three
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Post by bayernoatcake on Dec 28, 2016 17:58:35 GMT
People will slag Bayern off for his comments with regards to Allen but he is right. We never needed him, although he has played well since being here, we have shoe horned him in. Too ill disciplined for the DM role and doesn't link up play enough for the AM role. What we should have spent money on was a DM to replace Whelan, and RM to replace Shaqiri and stick Shaqiri behind the front man where he has always looked his best. He's shook up our midfield and his goals have been a massive bonus for us , without him we would be in the bottom three He has shook it up. There's no balance and no link to the strikers. It's shook the whole team up trying to shoehorn him in.
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Post by heworksardtho on Dec 28, 2016 18:08:34 GMT
Yes let's drop him then and carry on playing whelan , imbula and another and see how many goals that Larry , curly and mo score
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Post by bayernoatcake on Dec 28, 2016 18:21:12 GMT
Yes let's drop him then and carry on playing whelan , imbula and another and see how many goals that Larry , curly and mo score You never know we might function better as a team? But it is a cluster fuck. And one of the reasons why is because Allen has played so well. But there's just something missing from how he plays the role he is. There's no spark. There's energy but no creativity. The rest are an issue too don't think for one second I don't think that. But Allen was never needed, still isn't really and is causing a headache even if we (fans and MH) don't realise.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 28, 2016 18:30:50 GMT
Whelan cant pass forward or further than 10yrds, he's far to slow, he stops play because he can't see a pass.
Imbula, loads of potential but he can't tackle, definitely isn't a holding midfielder. Wants to take the opposition on everytime he gets the ball.
Cameron who looks ok in midfield, time is against him, plus always looks like he's going give a pen or free kick away around the edge of the box (like Whelan)
Shaq isn't a winger, he might play on the right but looks better in the centre, he can't stand up and is injury prone.
Bojan needs play up front, he's a striker.
Adam to slow, can't tackle, will always give away silly fouls.
Would love to see Muniesa as a defensive midfielder but we have no one who can partner him.
Is Molina ready out of the reserves, apparently he does the simple things well.
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Post by Pugsley on Dec 28, 2016 18:32:44 GMT
Two things - Whelan still plays and it misses Cameron. That's how bad it is....
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Post by Deleted on Dec 28, 2016 18:42:55 GMT
Yes let's drop him then and carry on playing whelan , imbula and another and see how many goals that Larry , curly and mo score You never know we might function better as a team? But it is a cluster fuck. And one of the reasons why is because Allen has played so well. But there's just something missing from how he plays the role he is. There's no spark. There's energy but no creativity. The rest are an issue too don't think for one second I don't think that. But Allen was never needed, still isn't really and is causing a headache even if we (fans and MH) don't realise. Allen is far more creative than you give him credit for. It helps that he's combative, but he's not the headless chicken that you make him out to be. For me, he's one of the only players we have who can help to find ways through 10 men behind the ball, which happens so often in this league, especially at home. Shaq, Bojan and most of our strikers offer little in those situations.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Dec 28, 2016 18:46:57 GMT
You never know we might function better as a team? But it is a cluster fuck. And one of the reasons why is because Allen has played so well. But there's just something missing from how he plays the role he is. There's no spark. There's energy but no creativity. The rest are an issue too don't think for one second I don't think that. But Allen was never needed, still isn't really and is causing a headache even if we (fans and MH) don't realise. Allen is far more creative than you give him credit for. It helps that he's combative, but he's not the headless chicken that you make him out to be. For me, he's one of the only players we have who can help to find ways through 10 men behind the ball, which happens so often in this league, especially at home. Shaq, Bojan and most of our strikers offer little in those situations. He's a headless chicken when he's played deeper but not so much further forward. I don't think he is, we're clueless going forward still but have been for sometime in all fairness. Allen hasn't helps with that. I just don't think he's needed, even still.
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Post by trickydicky73 on Dec 28, 2016 18:51:38 GMT
Two things - Whelan still plays and it misses Cameron. That's how bad it is.... Any players you like from other clubs that are realistic signings, Pugs?
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Post by superheroantonius on Dec 28, 2016 18:51:57 GMT
I recall Alex ferguson describing Allen as one of the players of the tournament at euro 2016. Which puts him well above headless chicken level.
Besides, until we sign a 15 goal a season striker, Allen and arnie have to play for the simple reason we need their goals.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Dec 28, 2016 18:55:02 GMT
I recall Alex ferguson describing Allen as one of the players of the tournament at euro 2016. Which puts him well above headless chicken level. Besides, until we sign a 15 goal a season striker, Allen and arnie have to play for the simple reason we need their goals. Fergie also said Charlie Adam was worth 15m (was it?) for his corners alone. I don't like his judgement on future Stoke midfielders! He was disciplined for Wales, he's shown none of that for us and one can only presume he hasn't been asked to be disciplined. Not that you'd want him to when he's been the attacking midfielder but it's pretty vital when he's been deeper.
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