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Post by chrisparker on Aug 22, 2016 0:21:04 GMT
Against Citeh Allen covered a whole lot more ground than Whelan did. He was tracking runners behind him, making runs forward to support midfielders, always tried to play the ball forward. He does everything that Whelan usually does plus a whole lot more, he also contributes to the attack. Imbula is no number 10 player. He's woeful every time he's played there. His biggest strength is picking the ball up from deep in midfield & driving the midfield forward. He was great against Middlesborough. I don't see why Allen & Imbula can't play together.
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Post by roylandstoke on Aug 22, 2016 0:35:51 GMT
Is this a trick question?
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Post by kustokie on Aug 22, 2016 0:44:33 GMT
Because Allen's defensive skills are so-so and Imbulla's are non-existent. So, it would be blood bath - the CBs would have virtually no protection.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2016 1:11:47 GMT
Apparently Joe Allen couldn't be our holding mid in a two man midfield (assuming the other is Imbula playing box to box) This is absolute bollocks.  These are the defensive statistics of our three midfielders per 90 mins this season, it's not soon enough for us to be talking about who is better at what but it's certainly enough to see what they're capable of. |
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Post by Olgrligm on Aug 22, 2016 1:15:04 GMT
Allen is at his best using his engine to motor about the pitch, putting in the hard miles. Why would you want to waste him as a holding midfielder, when we've been crying out for a player in that role for 12 months now?
Also, those stats tell you nothing in isolation. Look at where Allen made his interceptions and tackles. He was breaking up the play all over the pitch, not just on the edge of our box.
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Post by kustokie on Aug 22, 2016 1:18:56 GMT
Allen is at his best using his engine to motor about the pitch, putting in the hard miles. Why would you want to waste him as a holding midfielder, when we've been crying out for a player in that role for 12 months now? Because we have others that are SUPPOSED to be able to do that. We need one or two Billy Bremner types in front of our shaky CBs for protection. Personally, I'd like to see Shaqiri at the point of triangle in front of the two DMs. |
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Post by StokieBoy31 on Aug 22, 2016 1:20:50 GMT
Allen is a replacement for Afellay not Whelan
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Post by alster on Aug 22, 2016 7:32:53 GMT
I'd play Allen and Imbula, Whelan is contributing nothing.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Aug 22, 2016 7:47:07 GMT
You waste Allen if you use him as a DM.
The posts above are spot on.
Sign a defensive midfielder to play defensive midfield.
Sign Joe Allen to play alongside one to link defence and attack.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2016 7:55:08 GMT
I'd play Allen and Imbula, Whelan is contributing nothing. I agree - but making Allen take up the shielding role would blunt most of his usefulness. Imbula does well at what he can do, but won't shoulder the defensive responsibility. 433 is the way forward for me as Allen, Imbula and a mobile shielding destroyer would dominate most matchday midfields. Front three should sort itself out. Let Boj and a striker battle it out re: leading the line. Our propensity for thrashings since Feb, for me, lie somewhere between Imbula not shouldering enough defensive responsibility and Glenn not providing as much as he used to be able to. We need an upgrade for Glenn sharpish. Re: a replacement, I suppose if we get Phil Jones, we could do a 3-5-2 when attacking, with him moving into a defensive midfield role when defending (4-1-4-1/4-5-1): 352 Butland Shawcross Jones Wollscheid Johnson Allen Imbula Bojan/Shaq Pieters Shaq/Bojan Arnie 4141/451 Butland Johnson Shawcross Wollscheid Pieters Jones Shaq Imbula Allen Arnie Bojan We could do this now but I feel Glenn isn't up to it atm. |
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Post by silverdollar on Aug 22, 2016 8:08:12 GMT
Allen is at his best using his engine to motor about the pitch, putting in the hard miles. Why would you want to waste him as a holding midfielder, when we've been crying out for a player in that role for 12 months now? Because we have others that are SUPPOSED to be able to do that. We need one or two Billy Bremner types in front of our shaky CBs for protection. Personally, I'd like to see Shaqiri at the point of triangle in front of the two DMs. Can you refrain from using the word "we"! It is your opinion! Perhaps there maybe others but you don't know this. There will be others who totally disagree with your wishes to revert to Pulis tactics. You perceive our weakness at centre back. You do not stick a plaster over it. Get better centre halves who don't need so much protection! |
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Post by Paul Spencer on Aug 22, 2016 9:06:59 GMT
Allen is at his best using his engine to motor about the pitch, putting in the hard miles. Why would you want to waste him as a holding midfielder, when we've been crying out for a player in that role for 12 months now? Also, those stats tell you nothing in isolation. Look at where Allen made his interceptions and tackles. He was breaking up the play all over the pitch, not just on the edge of our box. This x 100. How anybody could have watched Allen's excellent performance on Saturday and still not get this, really is hard to fathom. |
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Post by cousindupree on Aug 22, 2016 9:13:40 GMT
It was great to see one of our midfield players get stuck in inside the opponents penalty box and of course he should have been awarded a penalty. We have rarely seen one of our midfielders so far up the pitch. Bodes well.
Its absolutely laughable to suggest Allen becomes a replacement for Whelan and we lose all that energy higher up the pitch...jeez!
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Post by Lakeland Potter on Aug 22, 2016 9:21:17 GMT
Allen is at his best using his engine to motor about the pitch, putting in the hard miles. Why would you want to waste him as a holding midfielder, when we've been crying out for a player in that role for 12 months now? Also, those stats tell you nothing in isolation. Look at where Allen made his interceptions and tackles. He was breaking up the play all over the pitch, not just on the edge of our box. This x 100. How anybody could have watched Allen's excellent performance on Saturday and still not get this, really is hard to fathom. I can see both sides of the argument here. I'm happily surprised at Allen's defensive attributes - especially his ball winning capability. So he COULD play in defensive midfield and do a decent job there, if called upon to do so. But because he COULD play there, does not mean that he SHOULD, play there with any sort of regularity because, as Olgrlim and Paul S have said, his natural game offers so much more - being able to offer attacking options and defensive abilities all over the pitch. He's the genuine box to box player around which we should build the side. That doesn't mean that he could not fill in very well for Whelan should the need arise during the game - but as first choice it would be using only 50% of his talent. |
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Post by Paul Spencer on Aug 22, 2016 9:25:26 GMT
This x 100. How anybody could have watched Allen's excellent performance on Saturday and still not get this, really is hard to fathom. I can see both sides of the argument here. I'm happily surprised at Allen's defensive attributes - especially his ball winning capability. So he COULD play in defensive midfield and do a decent job there, if called upon to do so. But because he COULD play there, does not mean that he SHOULD, play there with any sort of regularity because, as Olgrlim and Paul S have said, his natural game offers so much more - being able to offer attacking options and defensive abilities all over the pitch. He's the genuine box to box player around which we should build the side. That doesn't mean that he could not fill in very well for Whelan should the need arise during the game - but as first choice it would be using only 50% of his talent. Absolutely correct. |
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Post by liamo on Aug 22, 2016 9:39:37 GMT
So we bought Imbula who is a box to box and then spent more money on Allen as a box to box when Whelan is knocking on and as much as I love him, starting to become past it
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Post by iamcliveclarke on Aug 22, 2016 9:39:41 GMT
I'm starting to feel melancholy towards all this DM, CM, AM bollocks.
Would it be possible to broach the idea of 442 or am I just regaling the past?
Could we simply have 2 hard working midfielders that are box to box and benefit from two up front?
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Post by Paul Spencer on Aug 22, 2016 9:45:20 GMT
So we bought Imbula who is a box to box and then spent more money on Allen as a box to box when Whelan is knocking on and as much as I love him, starting to become past it That goes to the very heart of the discussion mate. Why spend £13 million on a player who plays in the position where you've just paid £18 million for a player to play? If you want a new holding, defensive midfielder to play instead of Whelan why not go out and buy a new holding, defensive midfielder? Only Mark Hughes knows the answers to these questions, or there again, maybe he doesn't. |
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Post by itsmorethanagame on Aug 22, 2016 10:28:52 GMT
So we bought Imbula who is a box to box and then spent more money on Allen as a box to box when Whelan is knocking on and as much as I love him, starting to become past it That goes to the very heart of the discussion mate. Why spend £13 million on a player who plays in the position where you've just paid £18 million for a player to play? If you want a new holding, defensive midfielder to play instead of Whelan why not go out and buy a new holding, defensive midfielder? Only Mark Hughes knows the answers to these questions, or there again, maybe he doesn't. It's a shambles really. Your only other option is to scrap the no 10 role and have a sitter like Whelan with Allen and Imbula in front of them. A bit like we did on Saturday but Imbula was shocking. And it then means again that there is no space for Bojan, as well as leaving the striker a bit isolated on his own. It almost feels like we are going out of our depth tactics wise and we need to get back to basics. The 4231 was working for us when we had Nzonzi as the transition in midfield and Walters on the right pressing high along with Diouf. Whilst Shaqiri is much better technically, he doesn't do this job as effectively as Walters and nor is he aggressive enough on the attacking front. NZonzi could be replaced by Allen but that leaves our record signing with no place. And the ageing Whelan who now looks suitable for a squad place rather than definite starter still has no competition. Despite the correct reasoning regards Allen being better suited as a box to boxer, I think we've got to give him a go alongside Imbula. I don't see what other choice we have? |
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Post by ed5993 on Aug 22, 2016 10:33:33 GMT
Allen showed enough against Citeh to prove to me he can have the defensive duties of a holding mid no problem.
The issue is... Do you risk putting Imbula next to him which will be a big risk against some teams who will hit you strong on the counter, as he really does seem to have his head in the clouds when it comes to defending and add nothing until you get the ball at his feet.
I expect to see the 3 mixed between the deeper 2 midfield roles, depending on the opposition. For me Allen would be first pick every time, based on what he showed Sat.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Aug 22, 2016 10:39:23 GMT
That goes to the very heart of the discussion mate. Why spend £13 million on a player who plays in the position where you've just paid £18 million for a player to play? If you want a new holding, defensive midfielder to play instead of Whelan why not go out and buy a new holding, defensive midfielder? Only Mark Hughes knows the answers to these questions, or there again, maybe he doesn't. It's a shambles really. Your only other option is to scrap the no 10 role and have a sitter like Whelan with Allen and Imbula in front of them. A bit like we did on Saturday but Imbula was shocking. And it then means again that there is no space for Bojan, as well as leaving the striker a bit isolated on his own. It almost feels like we are going out of our depth tactics wise and we need to get back to basics. The 4231 was working for us when we had Nzonzi as the transition in midfield and Walters on the right pressing high along with Diouf. Whilst Shaqiri is much better technically, he doesn't do this job as effectively as Walters and nor is he aggressive enough on the attacking front. NZonzi could be replaced by Allen but that leaves our record signing with no place. And the ageing Whelan who now looks suitable for a squad place rather than definite starter still has no competition. Despite the correct reasoning regards Allen being better suited as a box to boxer, I think we've got to give him a go alongside Imbula. I don't see what other choice we have? I agree with all of that, until your last sentence mate. If the rumours are true about Jones, then I hope he's coming to replace Whelan rather than Wollscheid. In my opinion he's a much better sitting defensive mid than he is a centre back. Allen is a brilliant replacement for N'Zonzi. If Imbula wasn't here, then a midfield three of Jones/Allen/Bojan would look incredibly well balanced and of course Bojan would be there to support the striker leading the line. You are right that with Whelan (or Jones) sitting, we could play Allen and Imbula in front as a two but then (as you've correctly already said) that leaves your striker totally isolated. There has been absolutely no sign whatsoever that Imbula has been prepared to work on the defensive side of his game and all things being equal, Allen looks like the more complete midfielder in that position. |
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Post by Mendicant on Aug 22, 2016 10:51:23 GMT
Against Man City Allen showed Imbula what putting in a shift looks like. Imbula deserves to be dropped.
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Post by rogerjonesisgod on Aug 22, 2016 11:05:45 GMT
Allen played about 15 mins against Boro and Imbula came off 20 mins early against Citeh.
Too soon for this discussion??
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Post by itsmorethanagame on Aug 22, 2016 11:06:52 GMT
It's a shambles really. Your only other option is to scrap the no 10 role and have a sitter like Whelan with Allen and Imbula in front of them. A bit like we did on Saturday but Imbula was shocking. And it then means again that there is no space for Bojan, as well as leaving the striker a bit isolated on his own. It almost feels like we are going out of our depth tactics wise and we need to get back to basics. The 4231 was working for us when we had Nzonzi as the transition in midfield and Walters on the right pressing high along with Diouf. Whilst Shaqiri is much better technically, he doesn't do this job as effectively as Walters and nor is he aggressive enough on the attacking front. NZonzi could be replaced by Allen but that leaves our record signing with no place. And the ageing Whelan who now looks suitable for a squad place rather than definite starter still has no competition. Despite the correct reasoning regards Allen being better suited as a box to boxer, I think we've got to give him a go alongside Imbula. I don't see what other choice we have? I agree with all of that, until your last sentence mate. If the rumours are true about Jones, then I hope he's coming to replace Whelan rather than Wollscheid. In my opinion he's a much better sitting defensive mid than he is a centre back. Allen is a brilliant replacement for N'Zonzi. If Imbula wasn't here, then a midfield three of Jones/Allen/Bojan would look incredibly well balanced and of course Bojan would be there to support the striker leading the line. You are right that with Whelan (or Jones) sitting, we could play Allen and Imbula in front as a two but then (as you've correctly already said) that leaves your striker totally isolated. There has been absolutely no sign whatsoever that Imbula has been prepared to work on the defensive side of his game and all things being equal, Allen looks like the more complete midfielder in that position. Don't disagree about Jones in midfield but I can't see it. Firstly, I don't think he will be coming anyway, but it would mean dropping Imbula our record signing which won't happen. We can't justify buying someone for 18m to sit on the bench. Also, if we were to sign Jones, I'm confident it would be as a centre half. Bowen has confirmed we are in the market for one and a ball player like Jones is right up Hughes' street. Fitness permitting I actually think he would be an excellent partner for Ryan if they could both stay fit and get a regular run. I hope we sign him, whichever position it's for. |
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Post by Paul Spencer on Aug 22, 2016 11:19:44 GMT
I agree with all of that, until your last sentence mate. If the rumours are true about Jones, then I hope he's coming to replace Whelan rather than Wollscheid. In my opinion he's a much better sitting defensive mid than he is a centre back. Allen is a brilliant replacement for N'Zonzi. If Imbula wasn't here, then a midfield three of Jones/Allen/Bojan would look incredibly well balanced and of course Bojan would be there to support the striker leading the line. You are right that with Whelan (or Jones) sitting, we could play Allen and Imbula in front as a two but then (as you've correctly already said) that leaves your striker totally isolated. There has been absolutely no sign whatsoever that Imbula has been prepared to work on the defensive side of his game and all things being equal, Allen looks like the more complete midfielder in that position. Don't disagree about Jones in midfield but I can't see it. Firstly, I don't think he will be coming anyway, but it would mean dropping Imbula our record signing which won't happen. We can't justify buying someone for 18m to sit on the bench. Also, if we were to sign Jones, I'm confident it would be as a centre half. Bowen has confirmed we are in the market for one and a ball player like Jones is right up Hughes' street. Fitness permitting I actually think he would be an excellent partner for Ryan if they could both stay fit and get a regular run. I hope we sign him, whichever position it's for. If he does come that it very likely to be the case and maybe I confused the discussion by introducing Jones into it. Leaving him to one side then, I still believe that a midfield of Whelan/Allen/Bojan, is the most balanced available to us. Allen/Imbula/Bojan means you only have one player in there prepared to put in any graft (which isn't enough) and also means that you lose 50% of Allen's qualities - you need someone putting their foot in all over the pitch, not just in a holding role in front of the centre backs. Whelan/Allen/Imbula solves the issues above but as a consequence it leaves your centre forward completely isolated as Bojan misses out. I get that you can't spend £18 million on a player and then not start him but in not doing so we're at present going to seriously compromise ourselves. So far Hughes has shown no inclination that he's about to do away with the holding midfield role. If there weren't such huge question marks (and they are huge) over Imbula's willingness to put any sort of a defensive shift in then it wouldn't be an issue but there are, so it is. |
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Post by itsmorethanagame on Aug 22, 2016 11:29:45 GMT
Don't disagree about Jones in midfield but I can't see it. Firstly, I don't think he will be coming anyway, but it would mean dropping Imbula our record signing which won't happen. We can't justify buying someone for 18m to sit on the bench. Also, if we were to sign Jones, I'm confident it would be as a centre half. Bowen has confirmed we are in the market for one and a ball player like Jones is right up Hughes' street. Fitness permitting I actually think he would be an excellent partner for Ryan if they could both stay fit and get a regular run. I hope we sign him, whichever position it's for. If he does come that it very likely to be the case and maybe I confused the discussion by introducing Jones into it. Leaving him to one side then, I still believe that a midfield of Whelan/Allen/Bojan, is the most balanced available to us. Allen/Imbula/Bojan means you only have one player in there prepared to put in any graft (which isn't enough) and also means that you lose 50% of Allen's qualities - you need someone putting their foot in all over the pitch, not just in a holding role in front of the centre backs. Whelan/Allen/Imbula solves the issues above but as a consequence it leaves your centre forward completely isolated as Bojan misses out. I get that you can't spend £18 million on a player and then not start him but in not doing so we're at present going to seriously compromise ourselves. So far Hughes has shown no inclination that he's about to do away with the holding midfield role. If there weren't such huge question marks (and they are huge) over Imbula's willingness to put any sort of a defensive shift in then it wouldn't be an issue but there are, so it is. I agree with you Paul, I was one of the few at the start who said Allen will play alongside Whelan rather than instead of. But and its a big but, I think Hughes has got to try and get Allen and Imbula working together. He's made his bed and needs to lay in it now. Ultimately, I can see all three of Whelan, Allen and Imbula starting as they did Saturday. Bojan will be pushed out wide, up front or on the bench to accommodate Imbula. It's all a bit of a mess! |
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Post by Pretty Little Boother on Aug 22, 2016 11:31:48 GMT
I can't get my head round buying Imbula and Allen, as others have said. As it stands though I'd fuck Imbula off to the bench (for now at least), he's just got no defensive side to his game. If we can get Jones in, I'd go:
Butland
Johnson Shawcross Wollscheid Pieters
Allen Jones
Shaqiri Bojan Arnautovic
New Striker
I have an uneasy feeling that Imbula will prove to be a bit of a clanger as Allen is simply a better all round box to boxer. |
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Post by liamo on Aug 22, 2016 11:32:38 GMT
Don't disagree about Jones in midfield but I can't see it. Firstly, I don't think he will be coming anyway, but it would mean dropping Imbula our record signing which won't happen. We can't justify buying someone for 18m to sit on the bench. Also, if we were to sign Jones, I'm confident it would be as a centre half. Bowen has confirmed we are in the market for one and a ball player like Jones is right up Hughes' street. Fitness permitting I actually think he would be an excellent partner for Ryan if they could both stay fit and get a regular run. I hope we sign him, whichever position it's for. If he does come that it very likely to be the case and maybe I confused the discussion by introducing Jones into it. Leaving him to one side then, I still believe that a midfield of Whelan/Allen/Bojan, is the most balanced available to us. Allen/Imbula/Bojan means you only have one player in there prepared to put in any graft (which isn't enough) and also means that you lose 50% of Allen's qualities - you need someone putting their foot in all over the pitch, not just in a holding role in front of the centre backs. Whelan/Allen/Imbula solves the issues above but as a consequence it leaves your centre forward completely isolated as Bojan misses out. I get that you can't spend £18 million on a player and then not start him but in not doing so we're at present going to seriously compromise ourselves. So far Hughes has shown no inclination that he's about to do away with the holding midfield role. If there weren't such huge question marks (and they are huge) over Imbula's willingness to put any sort of a defensive shift in then it wouldn't be an issue but there are, so it is. Hopefully it's just a language barrier issue, he's best when running from deep and the only position that allows that is box to box, but we can't play a box to box that refuses to do the dirty defensive side of the game, it needs to be drilled in to Imbula that he has to put a shift in at the back or we simply can't play him It's the premier league and he may have cost £18m but that's nothing compared to what we stand to lose if we can't sort this shit out, really does show how rare the Zonz type player is |
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Post by Laughing Gravy on Aug 22, 2016 11:33:57 GMT
Is this a trick question? Yes. They're the same person. Have you ever seen them in a room together? |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2016 11:37:47 GMT
Don't disagree about Jones in midfield but I can't see it. Firstly, I don't think he will be coming anyway, but it would mean dropping Imbula our record signing which won't happen. We can't justify buying someone for 18m to sit on the bench. Also, if we were to sign Jones, I'm confident it would be as a centre half. Bowen has confirmed we are in the market for one and a ball player like Jones is right up Hughes' street. Fitness permitting I actually think he would be an excellent partner for Ryan if they could both stay fit and get a regular run. I hope we sign him, whichever position it's for. If he does come that it very likely to be the case and maybe I confused the discussion by introducing Jones into it. Leaving him to one side then, I still believe that a midfield of Whelan/Allen/Bojan, is the most balanced available to us. Allen/Imbula/Bojan means you only have one player in there prepared to put in any graft (which isn't enough) and also means that you lose 50% of Allen's qualities - you need someone putting their foot in all over the pitch, not just in a holding role in front of the centre backs. Whelan/Allen/Imbula solves the issues above but as a consequence it leaves your centre forward completely isolated as Bojan misses out. I get that you can't spend £18 million on a player and then not start him but in not doing so we're at present going to seriously compromise ourselves. So far Hughes has shown no inclination that he's about to do away with the holding midfield role. If there weren't such huge question marks (and they are huge) over Imbula's willingness to put any sort of a defensive shift in then it wouldn't be an issue but there are, so it is. This, for me, alongside Glenn's drop in form, answers a lot of the questions around why we have had such poor results in the past 6 months. Don't get me wrong, I like Imbula, and think we need to accomodate him and let him develop - but he needs to have tenacious/dogged defensive attributes added to his game. Otherwise, he becomes a passenger in many situations as well as leaving too much defensive cover/interception work to Glenn and Joe. |
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