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Post by davejohnno1 on Aug 23, 2016 7:54:24 GMT
I've read a few posters saying that Allen is the n'zonzi replacement. As well as he played on Saturday, I'm happy to proclaim here and now that he isn't even close to him. There is no way n'zonzi would have been outmuscled the way Allen was in the build up to their 3rd goal. Allen is a good player. A very good player. Steven n'zonzi he ain't though. He's as close to a N'Zonzi replacement as we've had so far Dave. No two players are going to be exactly the same are they? mmm...He's nowhere near as good as N'zonzi. Of that I'm absolutely sure. In terms of covering ground, maybe you are right but as a player, they are totally different. I'm imagining Allen's strength is going to be breaking up play all over the pitch and passing is simply, quickly and effectively forward. N'zonzi was totally different. A player you could give the ball to in any position and be absolutely confident that he wouldn't lose it. A player who would give us time to recover our shape, a player who would keep us in good possession of the ball and a player who would link up with every player on the pitch. I really don't see Allen bringing those qualities to our team so if we are hoping that he will fill the huge Steven N'zonzi shaped hole in our team then I suspect we are going to be disappointed. Fingers crossed the manager finds a system that will work for all these players he's signed because if he's brining in or attempting to bring in a like for like replacement for one we've lost, he's failing miserably.
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Post by alster on Aug 23, 2016 8:00:29 GMT
This x 100. How anybody could have watched Allen's excellent performance on Saturday and still not get this, really is hard to fathom. I can see both sides of the argument here. I'm happily surprised at Allen's defensive attributes - especially his ball winning capability. So he COULD play in defensive midfield and do a decent job there, if called upon to do so. But because he COULD play there, does not mean that he SHOULD, play there with any sort of regularity because, as Olgrlim and Paul S have said, his natural game offers so much more - being able to offer attacking options and defensive abilities all over the pitch. He's the genuine box to box player around which we should build the side. That doesn't mean that he could not fill in very well for Whelan should the need arise during the game - but as first choice it would be using only 50% of his talent. He should play there because at the moment with the players we have the alternative is Whelan. We need a DM to offer more than Glenn ever has even at his best, which appears to be behind him. I'm all for signing another DM who is a beast of a physical specimen and combines power with the ability to read the game and spot a constructive pass now and then. Let Allen and Imbula slug it out for the other CM berth, given there respective performances against Man City it would be Allen everyday but lets not pretend Imbula is always so ineffective. We have to deal in the reality of the day and Glen has started the season much as he finished the last offering nothing to the team whatsoever. We need more from this position so play Allen there until/unless we sign someone else.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Aug 23, 2016 8:03:36 GMT
He's as close to a N'Zonzi replacement as we've had so far Dave. No two players are going to be exactly the same are they? mmm...He's nowhere near as good as N'zonzi. Of that I'm absolutely sure. In terms of covering ground, maybe you are right but as a player, they are totally different. I'm imagining Allen's strength is going to be breaking up play all over the pitch and passing is simply, quickly and effectively forward. N'zonzi was totally different. A player you could give the ball to in any position and be absolutely confident that he wouldn't lose it. A player who would give us time to recover our shape, a player who would keep us in good possession of the ball and a player who would link up with every player on the pitch. I really don't see Allen bringing those qualities to our team so if we are hoping that he will fill the huge Steven N'zonzi shaped hole in our team then I suspect we are going to be disappointed. Fingers crossed the manager finds a system that will work for all these players he's signed because if he's brining in or attempting to bring in a like for like replacement for one we've lost, he's failing miserably. Point being Dave, the system Hughes is using is exactly the same as the one he was using when N'Zonzi was here, 4-2-3-1. Where N'Zonzi played as one of the two with Whelan. If you see "Allen's strength as breaking up play all over the pitch and passing simply and effectively forward" then in this system he's going to be playing where N'Zonzi played. Whether he's as 'good' as N'Zonzi or not is like asking is Wollscheid as 'good' as Huth ... different types of players but playing in the same position in the system.
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Post by davejohnno1 on Aug 23, 2016 8:09:47 GMT
mmm...He's nowhere near as good as N'zonzi. Of that I'm absolutely sure. In terms of covering ground, maybe you are right but as a player, they are totally different. I'm imagining Allen's strength is going to be breaking up play all over the pitch and passing is simply, quickly and effectively forward. N'zonzi was totally different. A player you could give the ball to in any position and be absolutely confident that he wouldn't lose it. A player who would give us time to recover our shape, a player who would keep us in good possession of the ball and a player who would link up with every player on the pitch. I really don't see Allen bringing those qualities to our team so if we are hoping that he will fill the huge Steven N'zonzi shaped hole in our team then I suspect we are going to be disappointed. Fingers crossed the manager finds a system that will work for all these players he's signed because if he's brining in or attempting to bring in a like for like replacement for one we've lost, he's failing miserably. Point being Dave, the system Hughes is using is exactly the same as the one he was using when N'Zonzi was here, 4-2-3-1. Where N'Zonzi played as one of the two with Whelan. If you see "Allen's strength as breaking up play all over the pitch and passing simply and effectively forward" then in this system he's going to be playing where N'Zonzi played. Whether he's as 'good' as N'Zonzi or not is like asking is Wollscheid as 'good' as Huth ... different types of players but playing in the same position in the system. OR AS ONE OF A 3 WITH WHELAN & ADAM (see our great form at the end of the 2014/15 season). It will be very interesting to see how it all pans out. The loss of N'zonzi is bigger and its effect more profound than the loss of any other player we've had during Hughes tenure. The loss of Begovic and Huth pale into insignificance when compared to the loss of N'zonzi. I had hoped the Imbula would fill that void. Allen definitely won't. I'm not saying that Allen is a bad player, far from it. I just don't see him giving the team what N'zonzi did.
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Post by alster on Aug 23, 2016 8:12:57 GMT
Only one option for me get in a DM and play Imbula and Allen in a 3. I think this would ultimately expose the deficiencies in our full backs even further. You lose your CAM therefore your wide forwards need to support the central striker more, the full backs are even more needed to provide width with even less cover (certainly in Pieters/Arnie's case as I accept Shaq provides verry little of this). Personally think that it would be more effective to play Allen DM and take the hit on what you lose from him having licence to get around the pitch. IMO is the best solution not the perfect solution.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Aug 23, 2016 8:13:26 GMT
Point being Dave, the system Hughes is using is exactly the same as the one he was using when N'Zonzi was here, 4-2-3-1. Where N'Zonzi played as one of the two with Whelan. If you see "Allen's strength as breaking up play all over the pitch and passing simply and effectively forward" then in this system he's going to be playing where N'Zonzi played. Whether he's as 'good' as N'Zonzi or not is like asking is Wollscheid as 'good' as Huth ... different types of players but playing in the same position in the system. OR AS ONE OF A 3 WITH WHELAN & ADAM (see our great form at the end of the 2014/15 season). It will be very interesting to see how it all pans out. The loss of N'zonzi is bigger and its effect more profound than the loss of any other player we've had during Hughes tenure. The loss of Begovic and Huth pale into insignificance when compared to the loss of N'zonzi. I had hoped the Imbula would fill that void. Allen definitely won't. I'm not saying that Allen is a bad player, far from it. I just don't see him giving the team what N'zonzi did. Can't argue with that Dave, he's been a tremendous loss. I'm hoping Allen will give us something 'different', certainly a bit more bite, tenacity and energy than we've had in the period since N'Zonzi left. EDIT: See you've edited your post whilst I was replying. Yes we could play a 'three' but (as has already been discussed on this thread) where does that then leave Bojan?
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Post by okeydokeystokie2 on Aug 23, 2016 8:25:25 GMT
I think MH is trying to evolve the team tactically. There is no set way of playing. We will set up differently for Tottenham at home as opposed to West Brom at home. We will set up differently for Liverpool away as opposed to Sunderland away. Home and away tactics are already different.
At home, I would love to see Joey and Gianni in the two, taking it in turns to get forward, a bit like Viera and Petit. One goes, the other one sits. We don't need the double DM role as much, and it might help us to break teams down.
Away, so many options. I think he'll play a kind of 4-1-4-1 against Everton, with Glenn screening and Arnie and SJW in the wide midfield positions to double up on Everton's threat down the flanks.
He's already talked about tactical flexibilty with the 3-5-2 experiment. We've got good, clever footballers. Let's get some variety into our play and keep our opponents guessing. That was partly the secret to the stunning performance and victory over Manchester City last season.
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Post by davejohnno1 on Aug 23, 2016 8:27:44 GMT
OR AS ONE OF A 3 WITH WHELAN & ADAM (see our great form at the end of the 2014/15 season). It will be very interesting to see how it all pans out. The loss of N'zonzi is bigger and its effect more profound than the loss of any other player we've had during Hughes tenure. The loss of Begovic and Huth pale into insignificance when compared to the loss of N'zonzi. I had hoped the Imbula would fill that void. Allen definitely won't. I'm not saying that Allen is a bad player, far from it. I just don't see him giving the team what N'zonzi did. Can't argue with that Dave, he's been a tremendous loss. I'm hoping Allen will give us something 'different', certainly a bit more bite, tenacity and energy than we've had in the period since N'Zonzi left. EDIT: See you've edited your post whilst I was replying. Yes we could play a 'three' but (as has already been discussed on this thread) where does that then leave Bojan? Where does that leave Bojan? Out of the team until he starts playing as we know he can do I guess. Arnie aside, our "star players" simply aren't delivering enough in any way, shape or form. They aren't scoring enough, they aren't creating enough, they aren't playing well enough and they certainly aren't working hard enough for the team as we attempt to play ourselves out of the rut we seem to have got ourselves into. It's irrelevant really but were N'zonzi still here, I doubt very much we'd have signed Imbula. However, I could still imagine Hughes signing Allen. Would you envisage Allen and N'zonzi being a decent midfield combination in a 4-2-3-1 with Bojan ahead of them?
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Post by Paul Spencer on Aug 23, 2016 8:40:17 GMT
Can't argue with that Dave, he's been a tremendous loss. I'm hoping Allen will give us something 'different', certainly a bit more bite, tenacity and energy than we've had in the period since N'Zonzi left. EDIT: See you've edited your post whilst I was replying. Yes we could play a 'three' but (as has already been discussed on this thread) where does that then leave Bojan? Where does that leave Bojan? Out of the team until he starts playing as we know he can do I guess. Arnie aside, our "star players" simply aren't delivering enough in any way, shape or form. They aren't scoring enough, they aren't creating enough, they aren't playing well enough and they certainly aren't working hard enough for the team as we attempt to play ourselves out of the rut we seem to have got ourselves into. It's irrelevant really but were N'zonzi still here, I doubt very much we'd have signed Imbula. However, I could still imagine Hughes signing Allen. Would you envisage Allen and N'zonzi being a decent midfield combination in a 4-2-3-1 with Bojan ahead of them? I think you've got to play Bojan Dave, or at least somebody in that position (Shaqiri?) or else your loan striker leading the line becomes very isolated. Yeah you're right, it is pretty much irrelevant because N'Zonzi is no longer here but it's a good point that you make. We are where we are and we can't just have a solitary player in midfield who is prepared to work when he hasn't got the ball and put a tackle in and until Imbula learns this part of the game, we either play as a '2' with Bojan starting and Imbula on the bench or we play as a '3' with Imbula starting and Bojan missing out.
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Post by davejohnno1 on Aug 23, 2016 9:33:19 GMT
Where does that leave Bojan? Out of the team until he starts playing as we know he can do I guess. Arnie aside, our "star players" simply aren't delivering enough in any way, shape or form. They aren't scoring enough, they aren't creating enough, they aren't playing well enough and they certainly aren't working hard enough for the team as we attempt to play ourselves out of the rut we seem to have got ourselves into. It's irrelevant really but were N'zonzi still here, I doubt very much we'd have signed Imbula. However, I could still imagine Hughes signing Allen. Would you envisage Allen and N'zonzi being a decent midfield combination in a 4-2-3-1 with Bojan ahead of them? I think you've got to play Bojan Dave, or at least somebody in that position (Shaqiri?) or else your loan striker leading the line becomes very isolated. Yeah you're right, it is pretty much irrelevant because N'Zonzi is no longer here but it's a good point that you make. We are where we are and we can't just have a solitary player in midfield who is prepared to work when he hasn't got the ball and put a tackle in and until Imbula learns this part of the game, we either play as a '2' with Bojan starting and Imbula on the bench or we play as a '3' with Imbula starting and Bojan missing out. Decisions, decisions eh! Could we sell Imbula and get N'zonzi back?
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Post by jimmygscfc on Aug 23, 2016 9:59:43 GMT
I think you've got to play Bojan Dave, or at least somebody in that position (Shaqiri?) or else your loan striker leading the line becomes very isolated. Yeah you're right, it is pretty much irrelevant because N'Zonzi is no longer here but it's a good point that you make. We are where we are and we can't just have a solitary player in midfield who is prepared to work when he hasn't got the ball and put a tackle in and until Imbula learns this part of the game, we either play as a '2' with Bojan starting and Imbula on the bench or we play as a '3' with Imbula starting and Bojan missing out. Decisions, decisions eh! Could we sell Imbula and get N'zonzi back? Dave, I loved N'Zonzi by the time he left us but didn't rate him when he joined and it took a while for him to step up. However, he was young when he joined us, but only the same age as Imbula is now I think. Ignoring the fee for a while (if we can!), perhaps Imbula will grow into the sort of midfielder we hope he can be. He looks a little lost at times and seems not to be fully part of the gang. Time is a very valuable commodity and I'm not sure how much we have of it for Imbula, but considering the investment we've made we need to look after him and give him a chance.
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Post by davejohnno1 on Aug 23, 2016 10:13:12 GMT
Decisions, decisions eh! Could we sell Imbula and get N'zonzi back? Dave, I loved N'Zonzi by the time he left us but didn't rate him when he joined and it took a while for him to step up. However, he was young when he joined us, but only the same age as Imbula is now I think. Ignoring the fee for a while (if we can!), perhaps Imbula will grow into the sort of midfielder we hope he can be. He looks a little lost at times and seems not to be fully part of the gang. Time is a very valuable commodity and I'm not sure how much we have of it for Imbula, but considering the investment we've made we need to look after him and give him a chance. That is what we have to hope, I agree. Imbula has all the raw ingredients to step up to the plate and be an N'zonzi upgrade for sure. I have no doubt about his ability but I have lots of doubts about his attitude and how well he's settled at our club.
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Post by kurt on Aug 23, 2016 10:23:00 GMT
The question is: Why don't they play together?
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Post by PB1863 on Aug 23, 2016 10:40:58 GMT
Could Muni or Geoff sit as the holding midfielder with Allen and Adam/ Imbula in front? Last season our midfield gained some momentum late on when Adam returned to the team . His vision and ability is far superior than anybody's else . He may not be a 90 min player but he can certainly contribute with a 30 min cameo as a sub
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2016 10:52:00 GMT
I´m sure they can play together the team will gel with Butland and Johnson returning. Given and Bardsley should not be near a team in PL championsship class at best.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Aug 23, 2016 10:59:04 GMT
The question is: Why don't they play together? To be fair Kurt, that question has been extensively covered during the course of this thread.
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Post by chiefdelilah on Aug 23, 2016 11:06:43 GMT
Could Muni or Geoff sit as the holding midfielder with Allen and Adam/ Imbula in front? Last season our midfield gained some momentum late on when Adam returned to the team . His vision and ability is far superior than anybody's else . He may not be a 90 min player but he can certainly contribute with a 30 min cameo as a sub The answer to your first question is 'probably not' and 'no' respectively. Muniesa is a centre back. If we were going to see him at DM, we'd likely have seen it by now, and I'm not entirely convinced he has the discipline to play there. Cameron has shown he can't consistently do that job for us.
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Post by davejohnno1 on Aug 23, 2016 11:10:04 GMT
Could Muni or Geoff sit as the holding midfielder with Allen and Adam/ Imbula in front? Last season our midfield gained some momentum late on when Adam returned to the team . His vision and ability is far superior than anybody's else . He may not be a 90 min player but he can certainly contribute with a 30 min cameo as a sub The answer to your first question is 'probably not' and 'no' respectively. Muniesa is a centre back. If we were going to see him at DM, we'd likely have seen it by now, and I'm not entirely convinced he has the discipline to play there. Cameron has shown he can't consistently do that job for us. To be fair Cameron has shown consistently that he can't do any job for us which begs the question "why is he still here"?
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Post by chiefdelilah on Aug 23, 2016 11:17:08 GMT
The answer to your first question is 'probably not' and 'no' respectively. Muniesa is a centre back. If we were going to see him at DM, we'd likely have seen it by now, and I'm not entirely convinced he has the discipline to play there. Cameron has shown he can't consistently do that job for us. To be fair Cameron has shown consistently that he can't do any job for us which begs the question "why is he still here"? The Cameronettes on here won't like that Dave.
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Post by sheikhmomo on Aug 23, 2016 11:19:20 GMT
To be fair Cameron has shown consistently that he can't do any job for us which begs the question "why is he still here"? The Cameronettes on here won't like that Dave. Better right back than Bardsley and better centre half than Wollscheid.
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Post by ryan4england on Aug 23, 2016 11:22:41 GMT
We really arn't that far from a decent 4-3-3 set up imo. I'd like to think hughes is after another whelan type, badu?
That would leave us with 2 whelans in the squad for 1 position, to sit. I think allen could be classed as the energy of a 3 along with cameron as second fiddle, then we have imbula and adam perfect for a more creative passing player at the tip of the 3.
I think jones could be the player he sees as another whelan as well as a shawcross cover/replacement. If he did this and went 4-3-3 bojan will still play as f9 a lot as hughes beleives in it.
It's all looking 4-3-3 to me, said all along if berahino comes in he will be seen as as player to play mainly as cf but all across that line at times.
Daley blind is not a mourhino player he likes physical, I think we could do worse than him ( as well as jones) blind can do lcb, lb,dm & cm. Even so C.taylor would be perfect for LB & a fir johnson perfect for RB.
A great signing would be a proper defensive coach aswell, just like wenger bought in bould.
Jones, blind, berahino &/or taylor would do me for intentions of 4-3-3, imbula would be better in a 3 and adam definatly is and not just better, hes bloody good at it
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Post by chiefdelilah on Aug 23, 2016 11:26:50 GMT
The Cameronettes on here won't like that Dave. Better right back than Bardsley and better centre half than Wollscheid. Disagree on both counts.
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Post by sheikhmomo on Aug 23, 2016 11:27:54 GMT
Better right back than Bardsley and better centre half than Wollscheid. Disagree on both counts. Our clean sheet record wouldn't !
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Post by chiefdelilah on Aug 23, 2016 11:31:19 GMT
We struggle to keep clean sheets whoever's playing. The problems run deeper than personnel.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2016 11:37:31 GMT
No Clean sheet since Butlands injury and there will be none until he returns.
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Post by sheikhmomo on Aug 23, 2016 11:44:40 GMT
We struggle to keep clean sheets whoever's playing. The problems run deeper than personnel. It certainly doesn't get any worse when Cameron plays, that is for certain.
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Post by chiefdelilah on Aug 23, 2016 11:49:26 GMT
He's no better than any of the crop of centre backs we've got competing for a spot alongside Ryan. Capable of being steady enough but with at least one almighty fuck up per game in him.
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Post by sheikhmomo on Aug 23, 2016 11:53:15 GMT
He's no better than any of the crop of centre backs we've got competing for a spot alongside Ryan. Capable of being steady enough but with at least one almighty fuck up per game in him. If we don't get a defender in, he'll have to get a chance soon. It's fucking keystone cops stuff back there with the current personnel.
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Post by chiefdelilah on Aug 23, 2016 12:02:12 GMT
He's no better than any of the crop of centre backs we've got competing for a spot alongside Ryan. Capable of being steady enough but with at least one almighty fuck up per game in him. If we don't get a defender in, he'll have to get a chance soon. It's fucking keystone cops stuff back there with the current personnel. I think Wollscheid has been our best defender in the last two games. Not saying a lot, and I don't see him as first choice long-term, but wouldn't point the finger at him especially for the start to the season. Bardsley was appalling at Boro but generally ok Saturday I thought. Ryan is struggling, Pieters is horrendous at the moment, and our defending as a unit is hideous.
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Post by sheikhmomo on Aug 23, 2016 12:12:50 GMT
If we don't get a defender in, he'll have to get a chance soon. It's fucking keystone cops stuff back there with the current personnel. I think Wollscheid has been our best defender in the last two games. Not saying a lot, and I don't see him as first choice long-term, but wouldn't point the finger at him especially for the start to the season. Bardsley was appalling at Boro but generally ok Saturday I thought. Ryan is struggling, Pieters is horrendous at the moment, and our defending as a unit is hideous. Wollscheid was the best defender against 'Boro and typically horrendous again on Saturday. You say its not the personnel but you just can't keep the conceding the goals we do with the same rotten performances and make fun of and continue to exclude another defender who has had far, far more better games than some of those involved at present.
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