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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2016 21:29:26 GMT
Hopefully this will make the english FA morons reconsider on their intentions to desecrate The Football League in their false belief that the league structure in this country is the cause of almost half a century of underachievement by the national team. Wales have shown that, with a clear plan, some good quality (+ a world class player, which we've had no shortage of over the years) and crucially, hearts bigger than stars and enough pride and courage to fill the oceans several times over, dreams can become reality. I sincerely hope the Welsh dream continues against Portugal. They put our team and FA to shame and I couldn't be happier for them. Wales are The Pride of Britain right now. If we are prepared to do some soul-searching and look inwards, and be brave enough to face up to the pain of the truth, we can learn a hell of a lot from them. Sadly I'm not sure that will happen.  |
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Post by Cast no shadow on Jul 2, 2016 5:54:44 GMT
Bullshit! What we need is a winter break!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2016 6:03:11 GMT
Bullshit! What we need is a winter break! I actually don't hate the idea of a break. For me though keep the traditional festive schedule and have 3 weeks at the start of February. |
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Post by lawrieleslie on Jul 2, 2016 6:10:05 GMT
Bullshit! What we need is a winter break! I actually don't hate the idea of a break. For me though keep the traditional festive schedule and have 3 weeks at the start of February. The winter break has certainly benefitted the Welsh team. Yeh bring it on.  |
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Post by richie22 on Jul 2, 2016 6:35:53 GMT
The best thing about Wales doing well, is that it proves that you can go far with players that get on well with each other, play together and more than anything want to win . From the first game they chased every ball , yes we beat them and the regular media hacks will drag that up should they win it but we probably did get lucky there ... I never bought into it at that moment that we'd go onto romp the group we had no self belief . From the hundreds of FA staff that travel with team England to the management and players , no self belief without it everything's very false from players carrying the toy lion in stage managed media/hashtag frenzy s to to the pre written exit speech from Roy , no self belief so nothing is natural ....Leicester last season , Stoke in our early premier league years. Genuine team spirit will beat the super stars 9 times out of 10, wales have this in abundance .
Hopefully aswell the FA and the red tops will now allow the manager to pick players on there form and strengths , it was only 2 months ago that the sun had blanket coverage of Roy's love affair with super jack , (90 minutes in two years) by the end of that week I'd read that much on super jack I'd become an arsenal fan and thought we had messi in our ranks. Get out on the road , find some players that want to win and don't get them from the back pages of the red tops. Get the players together and don't try to coach them , in the time the England manager has with his players they ain't going to learn anything, manage them , organise them , create a good atmosphere and then hopefully team spirit will follow
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Post by pyrus on Jul 2, 2016 6:52:57 GMT
England as an underperforming spectacle has been with us for a while. The way the team plays is reminiscent of some Premiership teams, it can reap rewards over a 38 game season interwoven with a few cup competitions. But, it isn't the best in a short qualifying group followed by an intense knockout tournament.
England retain lots of possession. In their own half its okay, doesn't get us anywhere, but it makes your passing and possession stats look good but it flatters to deceive, as the back four and DMs knock the ball back and forth, but to what end? Then we edge further up the field and that infuriating thing where the ball traverses across the pitch on endless repeat while the defence keeps them at bay and eventually it all fizzles out. When we get corners, the attackers take them and it's all a bit unconvincing.
It is boring and predictable. It doesn't matter how many attackers you put on the pitch, without any creative spark it won't happen. The only player with a bit of that was Rashford and he didn't get much of a chance. Ross Barkley has done it in the past but I don't even know if he was in the squad, he certainly wasn't on the pitch.
Wales meanwhile have two creative players in Ramsey and Bale, one of which, admittedly is one of the best players in the world, but all of it is attacking and inventive and creative. Their defence reminds me of Stoke's under Pulis, hard men putting their bodies on the line. The rest of the team put a shift in, not the best in places, but they are not letting the side down - they have a team mentality, not a clutch of egos.
Good luck to Wales, they are everything I wish England were.
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Post by partickpotter on Jul 2, 2016 7:06:09 GMT
England's failings are simply down to poor management. Nowt else.
We have the playing talent - but as was desperately evident on Monday, that talent fails to perform in knockout stages of major competitions. Paralysed by fear, indecision, uncertainty.
Get the management appointment right and underperforming players combined with good selection will do the rest. Check out the rugby and cricket national teams if you need any convincing.
We do need to look at how we appoint the national manager though and avoid three things 1) appointing a fud in the first place 2) paying them too much money 3) keeping them on too long. In the case of our most recent manager, we failed in all three of these!
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Post by chiefdelilah on Jul 2, 2016 7:10:22 GMT
England's failings are simply down to poor management. Nowt else. We have the playing talent - but as was desperately evident on Monday, that talent fails to perform in knockout stages of major competitions. Paralysed by fear, indecision, uncertainty. Get the management appointment right and underperforming players combined with good selection will do the rest. Check out the rugby and cricket national teams if you need any convincing. We do need to look at how we appoint the national manager though and avoid three things 1) appointing a fud in the first place 2) paying them too much money 3) keeping them on too long. In the case of our most recent manager, we failed in all three of these! Hard to get the appointment right when you're left with the dregs though. We've got to the point where anyone decent would run a mile from it. |
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Post by werrington on Jul 2, 2016 7:14:56 GMT
England's failings are simply down to poor management. Nowt else. We have the playing talent - but as was desperately evident on Monday, that talent fails to perform in knockout stages of major competitions. Paralysed by fear, indecision, uncertainty. Get the management appointment right and underperforming players combined with good selection will do the rest. Check out the rugby and cricket national teams if you need any convincing. We do need to look at how we appoint the national manager though and avoid three things 1) appointing a fud in the first place 2) paying them too much money 3) keeping them on too long. In the case of our most recent manager, we failed in all three of these! Hard to get the appointment right when you're left with the dregs though. We've got to the point where anyone decent would run a mile from it. Monday night will go down as a watershed for the national side Rob That wasn't a being knocked out by a France,Germany or even a Poland when has in it would of been brushed off ...It was Iceland and it has shaken the country to the core especially in the manner of it It will change now |
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Post by starkiller on Jul 2, 2016 7:15:00 GMT
England's failings are simply down to poor management. Nowt else. We have the playing talent - but as was desperately evident on Monday, that talent fails to perform in knockout stages of major competitions. Paralysed by fear, indecision, uncertainty. Get the management appointment right and underperforming players combined with good selection will do the rest. Check out the rugby and cricket national teams if you need any convincing. We do need to look at how we appoint the national manager though and avoid three things 1) appointing a fud in the first place 2) paying them too much money 3) keeping them on too long. In the case of our most recent manager, we failed in all three of these! Woy 'these things happen sometimes' has proven himself a shit manager. £15 million in wages. What an utter disgrace. |
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Post by FullerMagic on Jul 2, 2016 7:17:15 GMT
Yeah - it's going to move the goalposts a bit on the recent debate.
Still Big Sam for me. He can deal with people and get them organised, which is more than we've had as a package since God knows when.
Whatever the failings are, I don't think a second rate (Blanc) or third-rate (Klinsmann) foreign manager is the solution.
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Post by chiefdelilah on Jul 2, 2016 7:20:54 GMT
Hard to get the appointment right when you're left with the dregs though. We've got to the point where anyone decent would run a mile from it. Monday night will go down as a watershed for the national side Rob That wasn't a being knocked out by a France,Germany or even a Poland when has in it would of been brushed off ...It was Iceland and it has shaken the country to the core especially in the manner of it It will change now It should do mate, but it won't. We had the same soul searching after failing to qualify for 94 and 08 and after ballsing up Euro 2000 and Brazil 2014. It never makes a difference. |
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Post by FullerMagic on Jul 2, 2016 7:31:38 GMT
The Wales dimension will have absolutely humiliated them.
But unclear what it is they're going to do. They do throw hundreds of millions at it in pursuit of something.
I do think the bulk of the problem is the manager. Look at how a dope like Wilmots has let down Belgium with all their talent.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2016 8:07:10 GMT
Bullshit! What we need is a winter break! No, we need a 39th game. |
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Post by generationex on Jul 2, 2016 8:19:22 GMT
We've watched half that England team visibly wilt at the Britannia after a little booing, how could they possibly succeed with the pressure of the Euros.
Tournament football is for the dogs of war - both players and managers - Sam or Tone and fewer mentally weak players please - even if it means they are not pampered at Liverpool, Spurs or Man City.
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Post by werrington on Jul 2, 2016 8:19:34 GMT
Monday night will go down as a watershed for the national side Rob That wasn't a being knocked out by a France,Germany or even a Poland when has in it would of been brushed off ...It was Iceland and it has shaken the country to the core especially in the manner of it It will change now It should do mate, but it won't. We had the same soul searching after failing to qualify for 94 and 08 and after ballsing up Euro 2000 and Brazil 2014. It never makes a difference. It needs a manager to have the balls to discard players who in essence have taken plaudits but have offered very little I'm talking Cahil,Wilshire,and the like and drop players like Hart,Smalling,Sterling,Lallana and sadly Rooney who are only stuck by for to the clubs they play for etc etc Hodgson was a shithouse and didn't have those balls |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2016 8:26:42 GMT
A winter break would make no difference because they would just have to rush all the fixtures in after. What England need is a coach who picks on form not by what club they play for.
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Post by pyrus on Jul 2, 2016 8:27:32 GMT
The Wales dimension will have absolutely humiliated them. But unclear what it is they're going to do. They do throw hundreds of millions at it in pursuit of something. I do think the bulk of the problem is the manager. Look at how a dope like Wilmots has let down Belgium with all their talent. I'm going off the topic of Wales a bit but.... International teams tend to be either ability led, or organisationally led. For example, the traditional Brazilian teams were ability led, it was less about the manager and all about the players. They put the best players on the pitch and everyone else gives the ball to them. They don't dwell on making mistakes, that is just an acceptable risk when you're being brilliant the rest of the time. In the meantime, over the years Germany have been organisationally led. They are built on a strong defence, they have a game plan, they work hard and are machine like and grind you down. You get the feeling it is all about practice, training, shape, tactics, the players are not really the stars and the manager has a greater presence. Occasionally England get themselves a mercurial talent - Gascoigne was probably the last one. Most of the time we have a good number of talented players. However we always seem to think 1. we should be brilliant; 2. we should play like a club team - Arsenal at the moment; 3. Our players are world class because the Premiership is the big league. But it is delusional really, you can't build an international team like Arsenal unless you can cherry-pick player types. And our players are made to look good at club level because of the players around them. As an international team you have what you have and you have to make do. Definitively the Welsh have to do this. They really struggle to get a full squad of players together so they have no pretensions, they are going out to be as organised as possible, They are underdogs with a bonded team mentality ...and Gareth Bale. England have tried to copy the French academy model and the Spanish team model, but we have not really tried to establish an English model. It is very much about players as personalities - we are all about individuals being selected, rather than the team achieving. In reality, we need to stop looking for clues for how to be something we are not. We need to be England: organisationally led; we always have good keepers (more Butland than Hart right now); we always do well on a solid defence; We never really lack for midfield creativity - particularly wingers; and we should work on playing like the English do: Fast, powerful and forward. We will never be Brazil, or Spain, but we could be as disciplined and organised as Germany, and use it to start being England again. To make this happen we are going to need a ball-breaker of a manager who will control the egos and imprint himself upon the team. I suspect Hoddle will get another crack at it. However, I think Allardyce (who will never be given the job) would achieve more success. |
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Post by Olgrligm on Jul 2, 2016 8:32:44 GMT
I've been struggling with this one, because Wales have so many obnoxious players that I can't be doing with. Ramsey is a petulant child. Bale is a mardy cheat. Ledley annoys me, somehow.
However, this might be the best thing to ever happen to English football. No winter break, no B teams in the Football League and no obligation for their players to join big academies.
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Post by werrington on Jul 2, 2016 8:37:03 GMT
A winter break would make no difference because they would just have to rush all the fixtures in after. What England need is a coach who picks on form not by what club they play for. They wouldn't have a break.....they'd be whizzed off to Asia to play lucrative club friendlies under the guise of keeping fit in the sunshine |
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Post by Beloved Monkfish on Jul 2, 2016 8:41:31 GMT
The Wales dimension will have absolutely humiliated them. But unclear what it is they're going to do. They do throw hundreds of millions at it in pursuit of something. I do think the bulk of the problem is the manager. Look at how a dope like Wilmots has let down Belgium with all their talent. I'm going off the topic of Wales a bit but.... International teams tend to be either ability led, or organisationally led. For example, the traditional Brazilian teams were ability led, it was less about the manager and all about the players. They put the best players on the pitch and everyone else gives the ball to them. They don't dwell on making mistakes, that is just an acceptable risk when you're being brilliant the rest of the time. In the meantime, over the years Germany have been organisationally led. They are built on a strong defence, they have a game plan, they work hard and are machine like and grind you down. You get the feeling it is all about practice, training, shape, tactics, the players are not really the stars and the manager has a greater presence. Occasionally England get themselves a mercurial talent - Gascoigne was probably the last one. Most of the time we have a good number of talented players. However we always seem to think 1. we should be brilliant; 2. we should play like a club team - Arsenal at the moment; 3. Our players are world class because the Premiership is the big league. But it is delusional really, you can't build an international team like Arsenal unless you can cherry-pick player types. And our players are made to look good at club level because of the players around them. As an international team you have what you have and you have to make do. Definitively the Welsh have to do this. They really struggle to get a full squad of players together so they have no pretensions, they are going out to be as organised as possible, They are underdogs with a bonded team mentality ...and Gareth Bale. England have tried to copy the French academy model and the Spanish team model, but we have not really tried to establish an English model. It is very much about players as personalities - we are all about individuals being selected, rather than the team achieving. In reality, we need to stop looking for clues for how to be something we are not. We need to be England: organisationally led; we always have good keepers (more Butland than Hart right now); we always do well on a solid defence; We never really lack for midfield creativity - particularly wingers; and we should work on playing like the English do: Fast, powerful and forward. We will never be Brazil, or Spain, but we could be as disciplined and organised as Germany, and use it to start being England again. To make this happen we are going to need a ball-breaker of a manager who will control the egos and imprint himself upon the team. I suspect Hoddle will get another crack at it. However, I think Allardyce (who will never be given the job) would achieve more success. Good post. I think a big problem is like you say, we're trying to be something we're not. We're 10 years behind everyone else, trying to play a brand of tiki taka which even looks out of date with the masters Spain playing it. No doubt in 3 or 4 years we'll cotton onto whatever is popular now, pump millions into it, only to have found that the game has changed and moved on again, leaving us behind once more. |
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Post by chiefdelilah on Jul 2, 2016 8:45:33 GMT
It should do mate, but it won't. We had the same soul searching after failing to qualify for 94 and 08 and after ballsing up Euro 2000 and Brazil 2014. It never makes a difference. It needs a manager to have the balls to discard players who in essence have taken plaudits but have offered very little I'm talking Cahil,Wilshire,and the like and drop players like Hart,Smalling,Sterling,Lallana and sadly Rooney who are only stuck by for to the clubs they play for etc etc Hodgson was a shithouse and didn't have those balls I think that's a little bit harsh on Lallana mate, who was one of the few to perform reasonably well. I completely agree that the manager is far and away the biggest reason this time round. |
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Post by heworksardtho on Jul 2, 2016 8:46:43 GMT
They are not Scotland
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Post by chiefdelilah on Jul 2, 2016 8:47:25 GMT
I don't understand the calls for a ball-breaker. Are we saying just shouting at them a lot is going to turn them into a team?
We had these calls before, and went for a disciplinarian. It made no difference.
There's already a culture of fear surrounding playing for England that we need rid of, not to delve deeper into.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2016 8:47:45 GMT
It needs a manager to have the balls to discard players who in essence have taken plaudits but have offered very little I'm talking Cahil,Wilshire,and the like and drop players like Hart,Smalling,Sterling,Lallana and sadly Rooney who are only stuck by for to the clubs they play for etc etc Hodgson was a shithouse and didn't have those balls I think that's a little bit harsh on Lallana mate, who was one of the few to perform reasonably well. I completely agree that the manager is far and away the biggest reason this time round. Never affects games, technically very good with two good feet but lacks a yard pace to really hurt defences and has zero end product. Easy on the eye but comes up short..... |
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Post by chiefdelilah on Jul 2, 2016 8:50:46 GMT
I think that's a little bit harsh on Lallana mate, who was one of the few to perform reasonably well. I completely agree that the manager is far and away the biggest reason this time round. Never affects games, technically very good with two good feet but lacks a yard pace to really hurt defences and has zero end product. Easy on the eye but comes up short..... I think Klopp's turned him into a player. Good work ethic, chases things down, opens up space. Thought he influenced the first two games and in the third we were poorer for him going off. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2016 8:57:57 GMT
Never affects games, technically very good with two good feet but lacks a yard pace to really hurt defences and has zero end product. Easy on the eye but comes up short..... I think Klopp's turned him into a player. Good work ethic, chases things down, opens up space. Thought he influenced the first two games and in the third we were poorer for him going off. I'm fairly certain when Klopp brings his own players in, Lallana will be one of those valuable squad members that always seems to get dropped or rested for the vital games. A good player, but easily replaceable |
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Post by hchpotter on Jul 2, 2016 8:59:13 GMT
A winter break would make no difference because they would just have to rush all the fixtures in after. What England need is a coach who picks on form not by what club they play for. They wouldn't have a break.....they'd be whizzed off to Asia to play lucrative club friendlies under the guise of keeping fit in the sunshine 100% correct. As soon as the dates for the break are announced the snouts will be in the trough and bonuses will be added to Wazza's £250 grand a week. |
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Post by chiefdelilah on Jul 2, 2016 9:07:39 GMT
I think Klopp's turned him into a player. Good work ethic, chases things down, opens up space. Thought he influenced the first two games and in the third we were poorer for him going off. I'm fairly certain when Klopp brings his own players in, Lallana will be one of those valuable squad members that always seems to get dropped or rested for the vital games. A good player, but easily replaceable Quite possibly. A Park Ji Sung or Dirk Kuyt type. |
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Post by bayernoatcake on Jul 2, 2016 9:15:32 GMT
It should do mate, but it won't. We had the same soul searching after failing to qualify for 94 and 08 and after ballsing up Euro 2000 and Brazil 2014. It never makes a difference. It needs a manager to have the balls to discard players who in essence have taken plaudits but have offered very little I'm talking Cahil,Wilshire,and the like and drop players like Hart,Smalling,Sterling,Lallana and sadly Rooney who are only stuck by for to the clubs they play for etc etc Hodgson was a shithouse and didn't have those balls I don't think many managers in world football wouldn't have taken the majority of those players though and rightly so imo. It's what we did with them that stunk. And why would they take them? Well Cahill is seen as the best English CB by a lot of people. The only way of a Dann/Shawcross going was as a 4th choice. Wilshere- worth the gamble but the issue was he gambled on Henderson (who isn't good enough anyway) and thinks he's a holding midfielder. Which is ridiculous. Agreed with the dropping bit apart from Smalling. Where are these centre halves we're dropping him for? |
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