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Post by geoff321 on Jun 16, 2016 10:13:48 GMT
Indeed mailman that is the reason given by both the US and UK for their military adventures, just a great pity that the end result always seems to be less peace, more terror and thousands of innocent people killed by the invasions and bombings.
My intention was to keep this thread on the subject of hooliganism and the Russian involvement in it, some have wanted to widen the discussion to Russian corruption and even the problems in Ukraine, apparently though by blanking out and ignoring the fact that all countries have levels of corruption and in the case of the US and UK records of invasions of other countries.
Whatever the truth about Russian hooliganism the events yesterday confirm my opinion that we at least need to be careful about lecturing other countries who have this problem, we are probably the last country in the World that has the right to do that.
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Post by stayingupfor GermanStokie on Jun 16, 2016 11:29:58 GMT
geoff321.... Can't you just answer the bloody questions before you? I'm trying heard to understand your point of views but you are being slippier than a politician on a patch of ice....
The issue you have is that the thread was about Russia and the situation in EM16 and the particular thread. The impact of which could be questioned if we need to review the World Cup IN Russia based on the stance taken by politicians and governing bodies IN Russia.
You cannot bleat about other nations when the topic in hand is the Russian Football Federation itself.....
As a non English person, i feel that you as the English FA and fans DO have the right to say something. You have been punished previously by your English Club actions and banned from competitions based on fan's actions. The FA supported this and apologies were forthcoming. Eventually you were able to return and reforms etc have been in place working together to deal with the "bad" element.
The Russian Federation are acting with disdain and should be punished in a similar manner for their fans actions. Absolutely tough SH*T that normal fans are affected. Yes I feel sorry for them as much as I felt sorry for the fans of those clubs who couldn't enjoy European Cup football because English clubs were banned.... like Wimbledon!!!
Lessons have been learned and at least the English FA have been quick to condemn the hooligan issues and are actively trying to sort it out. The Russians are playing lip service and should be held to account for it.
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Post by geoff321 on Jun 16, 2016 11:55:22 GMT
I'm aware GS that there have been comments, reported in the press, quoting a couple of Russians who are in senior positions which if true are clearly wrong. I'm also aware that Russia has been warned before about hooliganism and that they have been held responsible for the trouble in the stadium.
What I'm not clear about though are accusations by some on here that this hooliganism is state sponsored, that Russian authorities have done little to deal with the problems in Russia and that corruption in Russia is worse than many other countries.
Dealing with a small group of hooligans, especially when they are abroad is not easy for any country, whether the French have been spot on with security is also an issue. I don't want to see Russia thrown out of the Tournament or lose the World Cup on the basis of around 150 thugs and a couple irresponsible officials. I have no reason to believe that the vast majority of Russian fans, like the English, aren't decent people and it's those fans who would suffer most if action was taken by UEFA and FIFA that is being suggested.
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Post by stayingupfor GermanStokie on Jun 16, 2016 16:50:17 GMT
I'm aware GS that there have been comments, reported in the press, quoting a couple of Russians who are in senior positions which if true are clearly wrong. I'm also aware that Russia has been warned before about hooliganism and that they have been held responsible for the trouble in the stadium. What I'm not clear about though are accusations by some on here that this hooliganism is state sponsored, that Russian authorities have done little to deal with the problems in Russia and that corruption in Russia is worse than many other countries. Dealing with a small group of hooligans, especially when they are abroad is not easy for any country, whether the French have been spot on with security is also an issue. I don't want to see Russia thrown out of the Tournament or lose the World Cup on the basis of around 150 thugs and a couple irresponsible officials. I have no reason to believe that the vast majority of Russian fans, like the English, aren't decent people and it's those fans who would suffer most if action was taken by UEFA and FIFA that is being suggested. Right stop right there before you go off on another preamble without actually answering the questions set before you... Yet again. What is wrong with fair and consistent treatment? Russian FA have been frequently warned of the conduct of their fans and still this persists. As soon as this situation arose the English FA have been quick to respond in discrediting the actions of the fans.... The Russians? Nada! Why is it fair that the English Clubs were banned from competing in European competitions (and apparently threatened from removal from Euro 2000) but when you attempt to sanction another nation for the same reason it is apparently not fair... Why do you not consider the fans of clubs (like Wimbledon as I said before) who could not enjoy European competition yet discredit the same fans who question the fairness of the Russian FA and also their clubs not being sanctioned the same... Despite proven racism and violence... Why can people not worry about safety of the WM18 when visiting from another nations... And once again why don't you answer the questions of others? Or even mine?
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Post by kustokie on Jun 16, 2016 16:55:29 GMT
Indeed mailman that is the reason given by both the US and UK for their military adventures, just a great pity that the end result always seems to be less peace, more terror and thousands of innocent people killed by the invasions and bombings. My intention was to keep this thread on the subject of hooliganism and the Russian involvement in it, some have wanted to widen the discussion to Russian corruption and even the problems in Ukraine, apparently though by blanking out and ignoring the fact that all countries have levels of corruption and in the case of the US and UK records of invasions of other countries. Whatever the truth about Russian hooliganism the events yesterday confirm my opinion that we at least need to be careful about lecturing other countries who have this problem, we are probably the last country in the World that has the right to do that. How would you categorize the German invasions of France and the response of Britain and the US? Albeit the US was a bit late to both parties.
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Post by lordb on Jun 16, 2016 17:19:14 GMT
Indeed mailman that is the reason given by both the US and UK for their military adventures, just a great pity that the end result always seems to be less peace, more terror and thousands of innocent people killed by the invasions and bombings. My intention was to keep this thread on the subject of hooliganism and the Russian involvement in it, some have wanted to widen the discussion to Russian corruption and even the problems in Ukraine, apparently though by blanking out and ignoring the fact that all countries have levels of corruption and in the case of the US and UK records of invasions of other countries. Whatever the truth about Russian hooliganism the events yesterday confirm my opinion that we at least need to be careful about lecturing other countries who have this problem, we are probably the last country in the World that has the right to do that. How would you categorize the German invasions of France and the response of Britain and the US? Albeit the US was a bit late to both parties. A bit late would be weeks or months.
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Post by geoff321 on Jun 16, 2016 17:50:07 GMT
However wrong the invasion of Ukraine is kustokie the suggestion that it bears any resemblance to the Nazi invasion of Europe is in my opinion wrong. When Hitler invaded France we were already at war with Germany and it was clearly in our interests to try and help the French resist the Nazis if for nothing else because of the closeness of the French and English coastlines. I do think it's true that a war between Russia and the West is possible, mainly because of the influence of neocons in the US who have for many years believed in intervening in other countries where they believe there is a political and economic reason and where citizens are denied democracy and human rights. Nato and the Wests posturing and indirect threats against Russia is a very dangerous tactic indeed.
Regarding football hooliganism I do think Russia has a serious problem but as far as I can see it has not reached the awful level that threatened the English game for so many years and still does, although it is for now largely contained.
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Post by geoff321 on Jun 16, 2016 17:59:10 GMT
I've said GS that I don't thinks it's fair on the Russian population as a whole to ban them or remove the World Cup, just as it wasn't fair on the decent English fans to bar us from the European Cup.
We can't allow a tiny minority of fans or a brain dead couple of officials to spoil the enjoyment that football brings to millions of people, in my opinion.
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