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Post by mickmillslovechild on Jun 15, 2016 14:02:39 GMT
So if mick the World Cup was to be played in England in 2018 and 150 English thugs had behaved in France in this way and it eventually led to FIFA taking the WC off us, you would support FIFA? I know you are not a fan of short posts but a yes or no will do in this case. no geoff a yes or no won't do i'm afraid. this isn't an issue with just 1 simple answer, black or white, yes or no whether you want it to be or not! Russia aren't being disqualified for 1 incident involving just 150 thugs are they? they've just received a suspended disqualification because of it i.e. if they are disqualified it will ultimately be for more than just 1 isolated incident. secondly, no-one has said they will have the WC withdrawn have they? FIFA have simply said that they are scrutinising Russia closely due to these events AND previous events involving their hooliganism both internationally and domestically. that's 100% the right thing to do and if Russia (after having been given a suspended punishment at the last euros and then another one here) still don't get their house in order and ignore these sanctions then yes, i would support FIFA if the same happened with England. How many warnings do you want to give them exactly? Their hooliganism is a Russian issue that should have been stamped out by the Russians years ago...it's not the French that should have to suffer or innocent fans simply because they have done literally nothing (apart from their own politicians publicly applauding trheir thuggery the other day and actually being proud of them) to quell their problems. If FIFA take the WC away it's due to a matter of safety for the travelling fans and that's 100% the way it should be. i don't really see how you can disagree with that...yes, it may be a minority out of the entire population of the country (which isn't really a stat you can use anyway geoof as i'm pretty sure the entire nation doesn't regularly attend games) but what are travelling fans supposed to do exactly "Don't worry lads you'll be fine, just stay away from those 150 hooligans. no, sorry we don't know who they are because the Russian authorities have done nothing about it so you'll just have to take your chances". You're focusing 100% on what's fair for Russia and 100% ignoring what's fair for the average footy fan who DOESN'T want to end up in hospital. If Russia suffer the consequences of their repeated warnings that they have repeatedly ignored then only one body is to blame and that's the Russian authorities for not clamping down on hooliganism over the years; not the French security services, not FIFA and not UEFA. it's a simple thing called accepting repsonsibilities. if you want to keep believing that this is a one off and Russia in general don't have much in the way of hooliganism issues then i suggest you do at least a tiny bit of research before posting mate.
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Post by Laughing Gravy on Jun 15, 2016 14:05:50 GMT
This a football thread LG, but if you want to talk about political corruption and military aggression in the World then we can do so on the other board. I think the fact that I was refering to the corrupt process of granting the right to stage the World Cup might make it a football related comment. But I accept I was going of at a tangent a bit.
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Post by foster on Jun 15, 2016 14:11:41 GMT
So if mick the World Cup was to be played in England in 2018 and 150 English thugs had behaved in France in this way and it eventually led to FIFA taking the WC off us, you would support FIFA? I know you are not a fan of short posts but a yes or no will do in this case. no geoff a yes or no won't do i'm afraid. this isn't an issue with just 1 simple answer, black or white, yes or no whether you want it to be or not! Russia aren't being disqualified for 1 incident involving just 150 thugs are they? they've just received a suspended disqualification because of it i.e. if they are disqualified it will ultimately be for more than just 1 isolated incident. secondly, no-one has said they will have the WC withdrawn have they? FIFA have simply said that they are scrutinising Russia closely due to these events AND previous events involving their hooliganism both internationally and domestically. that's 100% the right thing to do and if Russia (after having been given a suspended punishment at the last euros and then another one here) still don't get their house in order and ignore these sanctions then yes, i would support FIFA if the same happened with England. How many warnings do you want to give them exactly? Their hooliganism is a Russian issue that should have been stamped out by the Russians years ago...it's not the French that should have to suffer or innocent fans simply because they have done literally nothing (apart from their own politicians publicly applauding trheir thuggery the other day and actually being proud of them) to quell their problems. If FIFA take the WC away it's due to a matter of safety for the travelling fans and that's 100% the way it should be. i don't really see how you can disagree with that...yes, it may be a minority out of the entire population of the country (which isn't really a stat you can use anyway geoof as i'm pretty sure the entire nation doesn't regularly attend games) but what are travelling fans supposed to do exactly "Don't worry lads you'll be fine, just stay away from those 150 hooligans. no, sorry we don't know who they are because the Russian authorities have done nothing about it so you'll just have to take your chances". You're focusing 100% on what's fair for Russia and 100% ignoring what's fair for the average footy fan who DOESN'T want to end up in hospital. If Russia suffer the consequences of their repeated warnings that they have repeatedly ignored then only one body is to blame and that's the Russian authorities for not clamping down on hooliganism over the years; not the French security services, not FIFA and not UEFA. it's a simple thing called accepting repsonsibilities. if you want to keep believing that this is a one off and Russia in general don't have much in the way of hooliganism issues then i suggest you do at least a tiny bit of research before posting mate. Geoff321, if you value your sanity then I suggest you avoid any further debate with Mick on this. He can go on like this forever. He'll mentally destroy you until you're nothing but a nervous wreck sitting in the corner of your room in piss-soaked y-fronts.
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Post by geoff321 on Jun 15, 2016 14:17:29 GMT
The English hooligan problem has been contained by strong security measures, how long did that take? We had a problem from the late 1960's which lasted 30+ years, during those years we saw horrendous incidents of violence and thuggery.
My confusion here mick is that if any country should have sympathy for Russia it's England, yet here you are preaching and claiming the moral high ground rather than recognising that in all countries plagued by this disease it's the tiny minority that cause the problem.
In a nutshell I don't think you want Russia to have this Tournament, at least laughing gravy is honest about that.
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Post by mickmillslovechild on Jun 15, 2016 14:30:39 GMT
The English hooligan problem has been contained by strong security measures, how long did that take? We had a problem from the late 1960's which lasted 30+ years, during those years we saw horrendous incidents of violence and thuggery. My confusion here mick is that if any country should have sympathy for Russia it's England, yet here you are preaching and claiming the moral high ground rather than recognising that in all countries plagued by this disease it's the tiny minority that cause the problem. In a nutshell I don't think you want Russia to have this Tournament, at least laughing gravy is honest about that. i have said literally nothing of any of that whatsoever geoff. the reason i don;t have the same sympathy is that we tried to tackle it (and yes it took a long long time), Russia however HAVEN'T tried to tackle it! how hard is that for you to understand. you've come onto this thread disagreeing with virtually everyone whilst making it very clear you know very little on the subject being discussed. how many of our state politicians came out in the 60s saying how proud they were of their nation's hooligans and that they saw nothing wrong with football fans fighting each other? When was the last time a player over here was red carded for making a gesture at fans who were making monkey noises at him (then when he appealed the Russian FA refused to hear his side and then banned him for a further 2 games on top of that for not accepting the punishment). English clubs were banned for several years from European competitions due to an incident that was caused by a minority, i didn't see the rest of the footballing world offering us sympathy for it. why? because if a minority spoil it for the rest then it's up to YOU as a nation (not the current hosts of a tournament, their police or other nations) to sort it out and ensure that minority aren't allowed to continue. Russia HAVE allowed it to continue geoff, that's a simple fact! they've been warned before and not done anything to remedy it; they've now been warned again so of course it's fair if they still sit back and do nothing. I'll ask you again (as you conveniently ignored it last time), you say it isn't fair on the rest of the Russian people to disqualify them...do you think it's fair that because Russia have allowed known hooligans to travel and have done nothing to stamp out doemstic football hooliganism over the decades it's been around, innocent football fans should suffer the consequences of that inaction? that the French police should have to confront organised and trained groups of thugs and that women and children in the stadiums should be afraid of what may happen while they're watching the game? is that fair geoff?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2016 14:41:19 GMT
Well that's another flare they've set off. Against UEFA rules ?
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Post by Lakeland Potter on Jun 15, 2016 14:45:07 GMT
Very true, forgot 3 go through! Well, 3rd place wouldn't go through in our group unless they somehow have more points than 3 other 3rd placed teams from the other groups (who get points from 3 matches and not 2). If Russia get disqualified then Slovakia will be on 0 points after todays game, regardless of the result. Imagine how they will feel if they win and this happens. If we win/draw vs Wales then we would only need a draw vs Slovakia to go through. If we lose vs Wales then we would need to beat Slovakia as our Points and GD would at best be equal to theirs. Cancelling the Russia games would likely favour us since we get two games to score points (from now) whereas Slovakia on zero points currently only get one game to score points. That's how I see it as well.
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Post by geoff321 on Jun 15, 2016 14:58:42 GMT
I'll take fosters advice mick, I feel my ability to think straight is slowly being drained away, let's hope the Russian hooligans cause further problems then we can all look forward to WC 2018 in that wonderful country the USA, after all they at least don't invade other countries, do they?
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Post by mickmillslovechild on Jun 15, 2016 15:13:50 GMT
I'll take fosters advice mick, I feel my ability to think straight is slowly being drained away, let's hope the Russian hooligans cause further problems then we can all look forward to WC 2018 in that wonderful country the USA, after all they at least don't invade other countries, do they? so still putting words into people's mouths that no-one has even said or implied in the hope that if you trot it out enough then people will just believe you (which is pretty pathetic geoff even for you; can't answer the questions posed so you just imply the other poster has said something awful so it detracts from everything else they've written. that's 8 year old's stuff and pretty poor of you to imply i've said ANYWHERE that i hope they cause more trouble)...and still completely ignoring the question i posed you despite it being the same question you asked me and i was courteous enough to answer..and then blaming your complete lack of substance and inability to answer anything posed to you (because you can't google the answer) on other people do me a favour geoff (and no bullshit excuses about your brain being drained etc.) as you have lied about what i have said can you please come up with ANY evidence that i said i hope the Russian hooligans cause further trouble or that i hope they are stripped of the WC? i believe that if you are going to imply i have said those things, it would be pretty disgusting on your part to not back them up with evidence as otherwise you're simply a liar mate! do you genuinely think anyone ever buys any of that from you geoff or do you think everyone thinks "Here we go, geoff again coming up with his googled posts who'll then disappear when a cogent argument pointing out his inaccuracies and illogical responses is thrown at him" well done geoff, yet again your failure to counter anything constructively finds you out
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Post by foster on Jun 15, 2016 15:22:47 GMT
I'll take fosters advice mick, I feel my ability to think straight is slowly being drained away, let's hope the Russian hooligans cause further problems then we can all look forward to WC 2018 in that wonderful country the USA, after all they at least don't invade other countries, do they? so still putting words into people's mouths that no-one has even said or implied in the hope that if you trot it out enough then people will just believe you (which is pretty pathetic geoff even for you; can't answer the questions posed so you just imply the other poster has said something awful so it detracts from everything else they've written. that's 8 year old's stuff and pretty poor of you to imply i've said ANYWHERE that i hope they cause more trouble)...and still completely ignoring the question i posed you despite it being the same question you asked me and i was courteous enough to answer..and then blaming your complete lack of substance and inability to answer anything posed to you (because you can't google the answer) on other people do me a favour geoff (and no bullshit excuses about your brain being drained etc.) as you have lied about what i have said can you please come up with ANY evidence that i said i hope the Russian hooligans cause further trouble or that i hope they are stripped of the WC? i believe that if you are going to imply i have said those things, it would be pretty disgusting on your part to not back them up with evidence as otherwise you're simply a liar mate! do you genuinely think anyone ever buys any of that from you geoff or do you think everyone thinks "Here we go, geoff again coming up with his googled posts who'll then disappear when a cogent argument pointing out his inaccuracies and illogical responses is thrown at him" well done geoff, yet again your failure to counter anything constructively finds you out
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Post by geoff321 on Jun 15, 2016 15:25:45 GMT
I hope mick some people read my posts, I hope sometimes other posters agree but overall I'm only really bothered about saying what I think is right, even if others think it isn't. It's strange you mention courtesy, I think and hope if a poll was done just on the simple issue of courtesy to other posters I might just have the edge over you, but now it's back to the actual football for me.
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Post by mickmillslovechild on Jun 15, 2016 15:35:27 GMT
I hope mick some people read my posts, I hope sometimes other posters agree but overall I'm only really bothered about saying what I think is right, even if others think it isn't. It's strange you mention courtesy, I think and hope if a poll was done just on the simple issue of courtesy to other posters I might just have the edge over you, but now it's back to the actual football for me. geoff, as i asked (and as you're so courteous) i'd appreciate it if you took the trouble of providing the quotes where i implied what you have said i implied please. a simple ask and one i believe you owe me as you've blatantly lied about what any of my posts mean. i have done NOTHING other than counter your points constructively and with FACTS. I haven't insulted you or abused you or used any bad language yet you have not offered the same courtesy whatsoever,at ANY point! you have simply flailed around, tried to change what the discussion actually was and then lied about what i said. how you deem that to be courteous god only knows. Again geoff, either provide the proof that i have implied i hope the Russians cause further trouble, get kicked out and are stripped of the WC or please admit you implied i have said that with no substance, facts, evidence or proof whatsoever. Making up and lying about what other posters say is in no way courteous geoff, particularly when discussing an issue that has led to many serious injuries to innocent people.
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Post by geoff321 on Jun 15, 2016 15:54:18 GMT
This mick is my last reply to you on this thread.
We are both Englishmen and for over 30 years our country and it's football fans were tarnished with the same brush, that was if you're English you're potential trouble, that applied to whatever part of the World you went to watch a football match. In view of this I can identify with those millions of decent Russian folk who are proud of their football team and are desperate to see the WC in Russia and who are being let down by a tiny number of thugs.
You however are acting like judge and jury totally uncaring about those innocent fans and simply out to punish big bad Russia. I think there are many countries in the West who for bogus political reasons would like to see Russia stripped of the World Cup and if valid reasons are found so be it, but to take it off them for having some hooligans is a step too far.
Anyway to prove I'm courteous mick if your reply is longer than three lines I won't read it.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Jun 15, 2016 15:54:50 GMT
I hope mick some people read my posts, I hope sometimes other posters agree but overall I'm only really bothered about saying what I think is right, even if others think it isn't. It's strange you mention courtesy, I think and hope if a poll was done just on the simple issue of courtesy to other posters I might just have the edge over you, but now it's back to the actual football for me. For what it's worth Geoff, from where I'm sitting you haven't remotely got the edge over Millsy with regard to courtesy, in fact you're not even in the same ball park.
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Post by rogerjonesisgod on Jun 15, 2016 15:59:03 GMT
I won't respond to the above posts because this is a football thread. In general though if there are a few people trying to demonize Russia, it's football fans and it's people because they have a few violent thugs then that is not right. In England, mainly through the hard work of a few groups of people, we have contained the hooligan problem but not beaten it, English hooligans have been some of the worst in the World, we should just be a bit more careful in lecturing others about this issue, at least in my opinion. You won't respond because you're wrong. Again. In fact you did respond earlier saying "I know there's another board for general issues but just to say .... " It's not wrong to penalise Russia because of their football hooligan element. Ban them. Send them home. An element of Russians have come to France to cause violence. Indiscriminate violence. To inflict injury or even death on others. They've targeted the English fans because a) we're in the same group and b) they're living in past thinking that causing trouble at football games makes you a big man. The head of the Russian football fans’ union the extreme right Aleksandr Shprigin also comments about the trouble inside the stadium “The entire English sector… just got up and ran away. There were no scuffles, police were standing there. Everything is ok. The police are working well.” The Russian sports minister Vitaly Mutko is filmed cheering and clapping pitch side when the Russian fans are rampaging in the stands above. The same sports minister quotes "There was no clash… that’s being exaggerated,” regarding the fighting at the final whistle. Vladimir Markin, a spokesman for Russia's equivalent of the FBI, claimed his French counterparts were unable to handle Russia's 'normal' football fans in Marseille because they were more used to policing 'gay pride parades'. Sections of the Russian media praises their supporters for fighting. Russian MP Igor Lebedev who sits on the executive committee of the Russian football union and the deputy chairman of the Russian parliament tweets, "“I don’t see anything wrong with the fans fighting, quite the opposite, well done lads, keep it up!” Russian is still banned from the Rio Olympics for a systematic doping programme allegedly from the Government down to the athletes. Our old friend the Russian sports minister Vitaly Mutko was accused by a German documentary as covering up the doping scandal. Vladimir Putin's spokesman denies ministry cover up regarding doping. Here's Vitaly Mutko denying racist chanting and dismissing the use of fireworks back in EURO 2012 Here's Vitaly Mukto denying doping problems with the Russian cycling team
Let's not forget the Russian v Poland violence from EURO 2012 either. They had a six point deduction suspended for three and a half years because of violence at the Czech Republic game at EURO 2012 Hosting a World Cup awarded by the Blatter regime. Laughable. Throw in political assassinations on a national level as a relatively common occurrence. Add the invasion of another sovereign state causing Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17 to get shot down killing 283 passengers, including 80 children, and 15 crew members. A country where homophobia, misogyny and racism are common place. No Geoff, I've got absolutely no problem whatsoever tarring Russia with one brush. From fans to athletes to the media to sports executives to MP's to Government doping scandals. BAN THEM. And sadly what trumps it all is the sad news that Andrew Bache is in a medically induced coma fighting for his life because of Russian thugs Donate Here And no I don't want to discuss this on the other board.
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Post by geoff321 on Jun 15, 2016 16:03:40 GMT
Hello Paul, we didn't agree on Pulis did we?
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Post by geoff321 on Jun 15, 2016 16:09:35 GMT
You seriously think roger that corruption is all about Russia and some other countries don't have issues. You raised invasions, my God the US have invaded 50 countries since 1945, since Obama has been in office he has bombed six countries.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Jun 15, 2016 16:11:13 GMT
Hello Paul, we didn't agree on Pulis did we? It seems that quite often people don't agree you with Geoff ... You dive in feet first into discussions with ill informed and badly thought through arguments and then once you've painted yourself into a corner, you go and try and change the subject. You'd never do that would you Geoff? Oh wait ... you just have.
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Post by geoff321 on Jun 15, 2016 16:16:06 GMT
Good grief, I can't even remember Paul any of your posts in detail, clearly you seem to remember mine, I bet!
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Post by mickmillslovechild on Jun 15, 2016 16:18:37 GMT
This mick is my last reply to you on this thread. We are both Englishmen and for over 30 years our country and it's football fans were tarnished with the same brush, that was if you're English you're potential trouble, that applied to whatever part of the World you went to watch a football match. In view of this I can identify with those millions of decent Russian folk who are proud of their football team and are desperate to see the WC in Russia and who are being let down by a tiny number of thugs. You however are acting like judge and jury totally uncaring about those innocent fans and simply out to punish big bad Russia. I think there are many countries in the West who for bogus political reasons would like to see Russia stripped of the World Cup and if valid reasons are found so be it, but to take it off them for having some hooligans is a step too far. Anyway to prove I'm courteous mick if your reply is longer than three lines I won't read it. i rest my case (not that it needed that to prove to just about everyone on here what a complete joke you actually are)
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Post by geoff321 on Jun 15, 2016 16:21:15 GMT
Stop playing the victim mick, you know that was a light hearted remark.
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Post by mickmillslovechild on Jun 15, 2016 16:25:23 GMT
You seriously think roger that corruption is all about Russia and some other countries don't have issues. You raised invasions, my God the US have invaded 50 countries since 1945, since Obama has been in office he has bombed six countries. wow geoff...it's almost as if you're focussing on just 3 or 4 lines of roger's entire post and then conveniently ignoring the other 85% of it as it shows you have no knowledge of the subject you're discussing. i'm shocked and surprised..that's so unlike you
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Post by mickmillslovechild on Jun 15, 2016 16:26:16 GMT
Stop playing the victim mick, you know that was a light hearted remark. i'm still waiting for you to provide proof of what you implied i said or for you to admit you're a liar geoff. that's what courtesy is all about
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Post by geoff321 on Jun 15, 2016 16:28:25 GMT
Roger raised the invasion of Ukraine earlier today mick, I'm responding to that post.
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Post by mickmillslovechild on Jun 15, 2016 16:31:58 GMT
Roger raised the invasion of Ukraine earlier today mick, I'm responding to that post. ah the post you said he shouldn't have raised so then wouldn't address you mean (as this is a football thread)? then when he posts something else and you have no answer to that post you suddenly decide you actually CAN address the original post instead and ignore the one that actually is related to a football thread? you've embarrassed yourself more than usual here mate, i'd call it a day if i were you....changing the argument, lying about what posters have said, ignoring arguments and facts that counter yours and telling people what they can and can't discuss on a thread depending on what suits you/what answers you have. good job geoff, good job
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Post by geoff321 on Jun 15, 2016 16:41:06 GMT
You need to relax mick, we are discussing football in the main and there will be different opinions, it would be a boring message board if we all agreed on every issue. I have told you what I think about the hooligan issue in relation to Russia and England and unlike you I am not claiming to be right, it's just my view.
Hooligan incidents at soccer matches are often difficult to deal with and to ensure the correct people are charged, as I am typing this message in my living room I'm not in a position to know all about what happened, but I would like Russia to sort out it's hooligan problem and remain in this competition at least for a few days longer and of course to host the World Cup.
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Post by muglump on Jun 15, 2016 20:43:10 GMT
Given whats reportedly going on now, should they be kicked out now?
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Post by muglump on Jun 15, 2016 20:45:14 GMT
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Post by JoeinOz on Jun 15, 2016 22:25:08 GMT
Given whats reportedly going on now, should they be kicked out now? My understanding is Uefa's ruling concerned what occurs in the stadium. So no.
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Post by mailman44 on Jun 16, 2016 2:56:48 GMT
I'll take fosters advice mick, I feel my ability to think straight is slowly being drained away, let's hope the Russian hooligans cause further problems then we can all look forward to WC 2018 in that wonderful country the USA, after all they at least don't invade other countries, do they? We in the USA are just spreading democracy. How can anyone have a problem with that. And The UK has been an excellent partner in our military adventures.
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