|
Post by JoeinOz on Jun 14, 2016 12:19:41 GMT
As this is UEFA's tournament, there is nothing regarding punishments that they could give which would have any automatic input on FIFA and the World Cup itself. It's also very difficult, as UEFA have shown, as the FA here have shown, for issues away from the ground or outside certain timescales to be under their jurisdiction too. In terms of taking the tournament from Russia, I think that would unfairly punish the many law abiding, normal football fans and businesses that would benefit from it. Remember in our non-glorious days (or, according to some, the 'best' days when football violence really counted...) how we'd have felt to have tournaments taken off us because of the actions of a minority? Lets not forget that a Russian student was stabbed to death during 1996 because he was mistaken by the attackers as being German! Notwithstanding, I would actually be supportive of England, in consultation with supporters and police, of getting a vote to withdraw from the tournament if the overall consensus was that our visiting fans would be under such excessive risk. This is especially in light of their fuckheaded ministers who have even congratulated the nutters on their victory!! As someone who never has actually followed England, I wouldn't expect to be consulted or have a say on this - but it's a worthwile step. I imagine that there would be a number of other countries which would also follow. As I have said in my post a bit higher up - I think the fact that the Russian Establishment seem, in some cases, to be actually condoning Russian violence at Euro 2016, is a good enough reason to take the World Cup away from Russia. If Russian politicians and security staff don't see a problem with violence, how are they going to get the message over to those of their population who are hell bent on perpetrating violence. Apparently Russian authorities have retracted the support of the thugs.
|
|
|
Post by metalhead on Jun 14, 2016 12:20:47 GMT
They won't kick them out. Effectively, Russia get off scot free.
|
|
|
Post by foster on Jun 14, 2016 12:25:27 GMT
As this is UEFA's tournament, there is nothing regarding punishments that they could give which would have any automatic input on FIFA and the World Cup itself. It's also very difficult, as UEFA have shown, as the FA here have shown, for issues away from the ground or outside certain timescales to be under their jurisdiction too. In terms of taking the tournament from Russia, I think that would unfairly punish the many law abiding, normal football fans and businesses that would benefit from it. Remember in our non-glorious days (or, according to some, the 'best' days when football violence really counted...) how we'd have felt to have tournaments taken off us because of the actions of a minority? Lets not forget that a Russian student was stabbed to death during 1996 because he was mistaken by the attackers as being German! Notwithstanding, I would actually be supportive of England, in consultation with supporters and police, of getting a vote to withdraw from the tournament if the overall consensus was that our visiting fans would be under such excessive risk. This is especially in light of their fuckheaded ministers who have even congratulated the nutters on their victory!! As someone who never has actually followed England, I wouldn't expect to be consulted or have a say on this - but it's a worthwile step. I imagine that there would be a number of other countries which would also follow. As I have said in my post a bit higher up - I think the fact that the Russian Establishment seem, in some cases, to be actually condoning Russian violence at Euro 2016, is a good enough reason to take the World Cup away from Russia. If Russian politicians and security staff don't see a problem with violence, how are they going to get the message over to those of their population who are hell bent on perpetrating violence. Do you think many people are going to go to Russia for the WC anyway? You'd have to be stupid to risk it. Over there you'll get worse than some punches or kicks to the face. Especially if you're not Caucasian.
|
|
|
Post by RipRoaringPotter on Jun 14, 2016 12:28:52 GMT
According to Sam Borden of the New York Times, there is two bodies handing out punishments. The UEFA Disciplinary Committee handed out this punishment for the violence inside the stadium. The UEFA ExCo can hand out punishments for trouble outside the stadium. It at least explains why UEFA has threatened Russia twice, and England once. Not saying it makes sense, but at least provides some clarity. Cheers for that. It's a good summary of the situation as it stands. Like others on this thread I have my misgivings and doubts as to what will actually happen in the event of further trouble - but at least the journo has drawn together the current pronouncements by UEFA - and their ostensible meaning. If I were FIFA (who have jurisdiction on the World Cup) I'd be very concerned about the way the Russian Authorities (including politicians and police) are not just condoning but actually complimenting the Russian thugs. I'd have said that was a good enough reason to stop Russia hosting the World Cup - but we all know that FIFA won't see it that way. You can imagine what would happen if our establishment said that they "couldn't see anything wrong with fans fighting" - we'd probably be expelled from FIFA. But standards seem to be different where Russia is concerned. The other thing that bugs me is how the security services of a nation which is supposed to be on the highest state of alert against terrorist attacks, can allow flare guns to be taken into a football stadium. And there has not been a word of condemnation of the Police and security failings from EUFA or the French government. I'm not sure I buy into the argument about double-standards and the "If it was us we'd be thrown out" mentality. England fans ran amok at international tournaments for quite some time, and we were never even close to getting kicked out of any tournament (as far as I know). It took scores of people to die for English football to be punished - I would suspect if Russian hooliganism was to cause some deaths they would face a similar punishment.
|
|
|
Post by boskampsflaps on Jun 14, 2016 12:29:26 GMT
So UEFA have again said that they only have jurisdiction over events that take place inside the stadium.
So for what specific offence are they threatening to expel England for?
I thought this when I first saw it, just seemed to me they were worried to point the finger solely at Russia.
|
|
|
Post by Rick Grimes on Jun 14, 2016 12:29:39 GMT
So if Russia lose to Wales on Monday meaning they're out of the tournament and they kick off on the Wales fans inside the stadium at the end of the game, what happens then? Are UEFA going to kick them out of the tournament? Oh hang on ... I sort of hope that Russia's hooligans do kick off at other nations fans....with no one getting seriously injured off course. If it gets them expelled from the tournament then great. I wonder if they're just targeting England to 'knock us of our perch' due to how we've previously been perceived just so they can claim they are now the best or if they are going to go after other fans as well. I don't thinks it's the last the tournamnent will see of these ultras outside the stadiums anyway.
|
|
|
Post by Lakeland Potter on Jun 14, 2016 12:30:28 GMT
As I have said in my post a bit higher up - I think the fact that the Russian Establishment seem, in some cases, to be actually condoning Russian violence at Euro 2016, is a good enough reason to take the World Cup away from Russia. If Russian politicians and security staff don't see a problem with violence, how are they going to get the message over to those of their population who are hell bent on perpetrating violence. Apparently Russian authorities have retracted the support of the thugs. There are some things which you can't really retract the following day and expect to be believed, can you? If you say, as at least one politician and one police chief have said, "we don't see a problem with fans fighting" and "we are glad our fans gave a good account of themselves in battles with the English" - then saying something different the following day doesn't really cut the mustard, does it? Russia has form for this. When the doping authorities proclaimed that there had been systematic doping of Russian athletes - there were categoric denials within hours. Within days, when they realised that the authorities meant business and had provisionally suspended their athletes from Rio, suddenly the Russians found that they hadn't been innocent after all and staretd to make some efforts to reform. I'd provisionally ban them from hosting the World Cup until they could prove that they had changed their attitude to homphobia, racism and fan violence and produced an action plan to make sure that any instances of it would be subject to the full force of the law in the run up to and during the period of the World Cup.
|
|
|
Post by geoff321 on Jun 14, 2016 12:32:51 GMT
Hooliganism/violence has been a scourge on football for many years, as an English person though I would be reluctant to take the moral high ground with any other country who face this problem. It's nothing to do with Governments or political leaders or politics, it's simply loutish behaviour by a small group of yobs.
|
|
|
Post by staffsvilla on Jun 14, 2016 12:35:36 GMT
Cheers for that. It's a good summary of the situation as it stands. Like others on this thread I have my misgivings and doubts as to what will actually happen in the event of further trouble - but at least the journo has drawn together the current pronouncements by UEFA - and their ostensible meaning. If I were FIFA (who have jurisdiction on the World Cup) I'd be very concerned about the way the Russian Authorities (including politicians and police) are not just condoning but actually complimenting the Russian thugs. I'd have said that was a good enough reason to stop Russia hosting the World Cup - but we all know that FIFA won't see it that way. You can imagine what would happen if our establishment said that they "couldn't see anything wrong with fans fighting" - we'd probably be expelled from FIFA. But standards seem to be different where Russia is concerned. The other thing that bugs me is how the security services of a nation which is supposed to be on the highest state of alert against terrorist attacks, can allow flare guns to be taken into a football stadium. And there has not been a word of condemnation of the Police and security failings from EUFA or the French government. I'm not sure I buy into the argument about double-standards and the "If it was us we'd be thrown out" mentality. England fans ran amok at international tournaments for quite some time, and we were never even close to getting kicked out of any tournament (as far as I know). It took scores of people to die for English football to be punished - I would suspect if Russian hooliganism was to cause some deaths they would face a similar punishment. With the exception of Turin in Euro 80, I can't remember England kicking off INSIDE any grounds during tournament's which is the point being made here. I also feel there is double standards in play in France unless you are telling me they could not identify any of the Russian mob from the many photos or videos of the violence over the last week, our 'fans' are getting jailed, theirs are getting deported
|
|
|
Post by GeneralFaye on Jun 14, 2016 12:35:57 GMT
I can't see the crazy Russian's charging the Welsh or Slovakian fans so they won't get kicked out, which is a shame.
|
|
|
Post by dutchstokie on Jun 14, 2016 12:48:58 GMT
Hooliganism/violence has been a scourge on football for many years, as an English person though I would be reluctant to take the moral high ground with any other country who face this problem. It's nothing to do with Governments or political leaders or politics, it's simply loutish behaviour by a small group of yobs. I wouldn't be so bold to say that fella.....as others have alluded to on similar posts, there is more to this than just a few scrotes dishing it out As in other high profile instances recently, other information will be unearthed, such is the gravity of the situation and what's at stake
|
|
|
Post by geoff321 on Jun 14, 2016 12:51:50 GMT
Sorry dutch but I don't understand your last sentence.
|
|
|
Post by foster on Jun 14, 2016 12:59:05 GMT
Sorry dutch but I don't understand your last sentence. Yeah, 2nd part of it reads like something from a political thriller trailer.
|
|
|
Post by Staffsoatcake on Jun 14, 2016 13:02:08 GMT
Just hope they don't kick England out, or Woy could keep his job for another tournament.
|
|
|
Post by mickmillslovechild on Jun 14, 2016 13:18:03 GMT
According to Sam Borden of the New York Times, there is two bodies handing out punishments. The UEFA Disciplinary Committee handed out this punishment for the violence inside the stadium. The UEFA ExCo can hand out punishments for trouble outside the stadium. It at least explains why UEFA has threatened Russia twice, and England once. Not saying it makes sense, but at least provides some clarity. UEFA's rules quite clearly state that disciplinary action can be taken to clubs and associations for trouble inside and around a stadium. Quite what power they think they have for trouble 5km from a stadium is anybody's guess. there was trouble between the english, russian and french fans outside the stadium (as well as in the Old Port area which is further away and happened in the afternoon) before the match. that's why we were threatened with disqualification when the Russians were. the Russians however had this disciplinary due to the trouble caused within the stadium
|
|
|
Post by foster on Jun 14, 2016 13:35:25 GMT
They won't kick them out. Effectively, Russia get off scot free. Like Euro 2016 then.
|
|
|
Post by nicholasjalcock on Jun 14, 2016 13:51:13 GMT
As this is UEFA's tournament, there is nothing regarding punishments that they could give which would have any automatic input on FIFA and the World Cup itself. It's also very difficult, as UEFA have shown, as the FA here have shown, for issues away from the ground or outside certain timescales to be under their jurisdiction too. In terms of taking the tournament from Russia, I think that would unfairly punish the many law abiding, normal football fans and businesses that would benefit from it. Remember in our non-glorious days (or, according to some, the 'best' days when football violence really counted...) how we'd have felt to have tournaments taken off us because of the actions of a minority? Lets not forget that a Russian student was stabbed to death during 1996 because he was mistaken by the attackers as being German! Notwithstanding, I would actually be supportive of England, in consultation with supporters and police, of getting a vote to withdraw from the tournament if the overall consensus was that our visiting fans would be under such excessive risk. This is especially in light of their fuckheaded ministers who have even congratulated the nutters on their victory!! As someone who never has actually followed England, I wouldn't expect to be consulted or have a say on this - but it's a worthwile step. I imagine that there would be a number of other countries which would also follow. As I have said in my post a bit higher up - I think the fact that the Russian Establishment seem, in some cases, to be actually condoning Russian violence at Euro 2016, is a good enough reason to take the World Cup away from Russia. If Russian politicians and security staff don't see a problem with violence, how are they going to get the message over to those of their population who are hell bent on perpetrating violence. I couldn't agree more! How can they hold a world cup when there are illegally occupying territory of two participants i.e. Ukraine, Georgia!
|
|
|
Post by 58Potter on Jun 14, 2016 14:00:02 GMT
So UEFA have again said that they only have jurisdiction over events that take place inside the stadium.
So for what specific offence are they threatening to expel England for?
Exactly this
|
|
|
Post by PotterLog on Jun 14, 2016 14:14:23 GMT
Cheers for that. It's a good summary of the situation as it stands. Like others on this thread I have my misgivings and doubts as to what will actually happen in the event of further trouble - but at least the journo has drawn together the current pronouncements by UEFA - and their ostensible meaning. If I were FIFA (who have jurisdiction on the World Cup) I'd be very concerned about the way the Russian Authorities (including politicians and police) are not just condoning but actually complimenting the Russian thugs. I'd have said that was a good enough reason to stop Russia hosting the World Cup - but we all know that FIFA won't see it that way. You can imagine what would happen if our establishment said that they "couldn't see anything wrong with fans fighting" - we'd probably be expelled from FIFA. But standards seem to be different where Russia is concerned. The other thing that bugs me is how the security services of a nation which is supposed to be on the highest state of alert against terrorist attacks, can allow flare guns to be taken into a football stadium. And there has not been a word of condemnation of the Police and security failings from EUFA or the French government. I'm not sure I buy into the argument about double-standards and the "If it was us we'd be thrown out" mentality. England fans ran amok at international tournaments for quite some time, and we were never even close to getting kicked out of any tournament (as far as I know). It took scores of people to die for English football to be punished - I would suspect if Russian hooliganism was to cause some deaths they would face a similar punishment. We were threatened with expulsion from Euro 2000
|
|
|
Post by dutchstokie on Jun 14, 2016 14:21:09 GMT
Sorry dutch but I don't understand your last sentence. It's very simple.....there's too much at stake. With the Russian sports minister actually endorsing the actions over the last few days, then retracting them, doesn't that say something to you? Other than hes incredibly thick obviously. The billions involved in the world cup is at stake. I sincerely hope it's taken off them but we all know it wont The other high profile cases I mean, refer to hillsbro but this is not the place to discuss this. I can guarantee you one thing- that some journalist or blogger will start to dig around and uncover something....maybe not in the next few weeks but eventually something will be uncovered which leads to governmental involvement
|
|
|
Post by Paul Spencer on Jun 14, 2016 14:51:33 GMT
UEFA's rules quite clearly state that disciplinary action can be taken to clubs and associations for trouble inside and around a stadium. Quite what power they think they have for trouble 5km from a stadium is anybody's guess. there was trouble between the english, russian and french fans outside the stadium (as well as in the Old Port area which is further away and happened in the afternoon) before the match. that's why we were threatened with disqualification when the Russians were. the Russians however had this disciplinary due to the trouble caused within the stadium
So what about them then ...
|
|
|
Post by mickmillslovechild on Jun 14, 2016 14:57:08 GMT
there was trouble between the english, russian and french fans outside the stadium (as well as in the Old Port area which is further away and happened in the afternoon) before the match. that's why we were threatened with disqualification when the Russians were. the Russians however had this disciplinary due to the trouble caused within the stadium
So what about them then ...
presumably we'll no doubt be told that although they were French, they're actually England supporters. to be fair, when they "threatened" us with it it was obvious at the time it was nothing more than a token gesture and a slap on the wrists (which is warranted as there were 6 english fans arrested outside) as the same threat was given to Russia as well but they then announced that a disciplinary would be held against them but nothing against us. it's nothing more than PR so they can be seen to be doing something to all parties involved. the equivalent of boys fighting in a playground but even though the teacher knows who's fault it was, they publicly give both a telling off in front of the crowd shouting "Fight,fight,fight" whilst actually only really punishing the instigator when they're both taken into the headmaster's office.
|
|
|
Post by geoff321 on Jun 14, 2016 15:07:20 GMT
Banning or expelling teams is not the answer because it punishes the innocent, preventing the trouble or arresting the trouble makers and punishing them is.
|
|
|
Post by LDE76 on Jun 14, 2016 15:09:53 GMT
I sort of hope that Russia's hooligans do kick off at other nations fans....with no one getting seriously injured off course. If it gets them expelled from the tournament then great. Point being, in the scenario I've just described mate, they'll already be out of the tournament anyway, so where would be the deterrent for them not to kick off on the Welsh? Personally, I reckon that the second they heard the news of their expulsion, they'd stop mid-charge amid calls of "That's it lads! Back to Belgorod!"
|
|
|
Post by samba :) on Jun 14, 2016 15:13:17 GMT
So a ban... That isnt a ban nice on fifa
|
|
|
Post by mickmillslovechild on Jun 14, 2016 15:36:09 GMT
Banning or expelling teams is not the answer because it punishes the innocent, preventing the trouble or arresting the trouble makers and punishing them is. no-one would disagree with that geoff....but the logistics and practicalities of trying to identify, locate and then arrest people who aren't known to the French authorities (as they're from Russia) or the French people (as they're from Russia) in a very limited timeframe (they're only in France for a few weeks at most) makes all of that a tad more difficult don't you think? in Russia these gangs are known and very well organised, the Russian authorities could therefore act when its on home soil and give the names to the French (but not likely their whereabouts) but given some of the comments from the Russian press and politicians who are proud of them, how likely is it that they're going to help out the French authorities? they need to be searching more people more thoroughly on their way in but realistically there's little else they can do. they can't set off watercannons and tear gas in a stadium of 60,000 people as that may get the perpetrators but will also effect countless innocent victims as well. they tried it with the tear gas at that game but then many innocent bystanders (e.g. our very own Jamie Vardy's wife) were caught in the crossfire and have now complained about it. each FA is responsible for the fans that are taken over to support that team. given the above then the only real option is to "hit them where it hurts" i.e. financial loss for being disqualified and the consequent shame and possible ramifications of them holding the WC. not the ideal but pretty much all they can do as UEFA don't control the French Police force i'm afraid. i don't see why anyone would criticise a footballing body for taking this course of action when the capture and punishment of those involved is not something they could or would be allowed to do anyway. the blame lies with those that carried out these actions, no-one else and as the Russian FA is responsible for them, UEFA are taking the only course of action available to them. Arresting people is not within the remit of UEFA. the police will do what they legally are allowed to do, UEFA will do what they are legally allowed to do and in this instance what else can UEFA do exactly?
|
|
|
Post by enuntio on Jun 14, 2016 15:44:05 GMT
So UEFA have again said that they only have jurisdiction over events that take place inside the stadium.
So for what specific offence are they threatening to expel England for?
Exactly this More to the point, why has France not been cited? According to the -- BBC French locals are mentioned twice in being involved, not just caught up, but by instagating the trouble away from the stadiums with both England and Northern Ireland supporters.
|
|
|
Post by Paul Spencer on Jun 14, 2016 15:45:57 GMT
So what about them then ...
presumably we'll no doubt be told that although they were French, they're actually England supporters. to be fair, when they "threatened" us with it it was obvious at the time it was nothing more than a token gesture and a slap on the wrists (which is warranted as there were 6 english fans arrested outside) as the same threat was given to Russia as well but they then announced that a disciplinary would be held against them but nothing against us. it's nothing more than PR so they can be seen to be doing something to all parties involved. the equivalent of boys fighting in a playground but even though the teacher knows who's fault it was, they publicly give both a telling off in front of the crowd shouting "Fight,fight,fight" whilst actually only really punishing the instigator when they're both taken into the headmaster's office.
That's a good analogy Millsy.
However I'm not sure then that I like to see the England captain and England manager cajoled by our FA into adopting this narrative, if it is indeed nothing more than a token gesture on UEFA'S part.
Also I'm not sure that any England supporters were arrested immediately outside the stadium, as far as I'm aware, they were arrested in the old port area.
From where I'm standing, it just looks like a cluster fuck of incompetency from UEFA (who seem to make it up as they go along), our own FA and particularly from the French security forces.
|
|
|
Post by mickmillslovechild on Jun 14, 2016 15:46:39 GMT
More to the point, why has France not been cited? According to the -- BBC French locals are mentioned twice in being involved, not just caught up, but by instagating the trouble away from the stadiums with both England and Northern Ireland supporters. we were cited for causing trouble outside the stadium the other night. if it's away from the stadium then UEFA have no authority to do anything. that's simply a police matter. presumably the only reason they weren't cited for the trouble outside of the stadium (which they apparently joined in with) is because none of them were arrested so they can't prove they were indeed French (i.e. the press probably named them as french for wearing french shirts but they legged it and got away so no proof)
|
|
|
Post by mickmillslovechild on Jun 14, 2016 15:52:11 GMT
presumably we'll no doubt be told that although they were French, they're actually England supporters. to be fair, when they "threatened" us with it it was obvious at the time it was nothing more than a token gesture and a slap on the wrists (which is warranted as there were 6 english fans arrested outside) as the same threat was given to Russia as well but they then announced that a disciplinary would be held against them but nothing against us. it's nothing more than PR so they can be seen to be doing something to all parties involved. the equivalent of boys fighting in a playground but even though the teacher knows who's fault it was, they publicly give both a telling off in front of the crowd shouting "Fight,fight,fight" whilst actually only really punishing the instigator when they're both taken into the headmaster's office.
That's a good analogy Millsy.
However I'm not sure then that I like to see the England captain and England manager cajoled by our FA into adopting this narrative, if it is indeed nothing more than a token gesture our UEFA'S part.
Also I'm not sure that any England supporters were arrested immediately outside the stadium, as far as I'm aware, they were arrested in the old port area.
From where I'm standing, it just looks like a cluster fuck of incompetency from UEFA (who seem to make it up as they go along), our own FA and particularly from the French security forces.
Completely agree mate....a case of UEFA thinking: "Shit, something bad's gone down we need to react quickly..no meetings, no committees, no time for any of that just say something to make it look like we're mad at them" and getting it all wrong. presumably our FA got those 2 involved using the completely incorrect logic that fans would in some way respect and listen to Woy and Wayne (plus as it was just a slap on the wrists it looks good to UEFA to show we're doing what we can). Dyke's letter however made it clear that in reality, we feel as if we've done nothing to apologise for in that particular episode and that we're not happy about being dragged into any of the blame for that at all. Suppose just a case of Footballers public soundbites for the purpose of lip service to UEFA, whilst the FA then say what they really think behind the scenes in their letter to UEFA themselves.
|
|