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Post by davejohnno1 on Sept 16, 2015 8:02:16 GMT
Without wishing to open up old wounds, about 10 minutes ago on Talksport, Mark Halsey was on discussing last nights unfortunate injury to Luke Shaw.
He went through the rules that referees have to consider, namely excessive force, and concluded that the PSV player should have been sent off.
He then referred to the Shawcross/Ramsey incident and said that he'd spoken to Peter Walton who had said that having run across to see Ramsey's injury, he then sent Shawcross off. He went further and commented that "Pete said that but for the injury to Ramsey, Shawcross wouldn't have been sent off".
I'm not saying that I agree with the interpretation of the law, which is could be taken as meaning that any tackle that injures an opposition player is automatically a red card offence but his comments on Shawcross/Ramsey incident were very illuminating and should put to bed once and for all the matter.
It also serves to highlight how the smear campaign launched by Arsenal Football Club in general and Arsene Wenger specifically was an absolute disgrace and should have seen Stoke City take legal action against both Wenger and Arsenal.
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Post by Jamo on the wing on Sept 16, 2015 8:11:33 GMT
This has always been the issue for me, mate.
If I recall correctly Walton didn't even blow for a foul at first and as Halsey says, only decided to send Ryan off when he realised that Ramsey had been badly injured which has to be wrong.
I have always and adamantly maintained that as sad and awful as the lad's injury was, it was just one of those things that can happen in sport.
Who knows, had Ryan not have been sent off perhaps he wouldn't have been as vilified as he has been.
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Post by Squeekster on Sept 16, 2015 8:13:07 GMT
Walton took an age to send Shawcross off and it was player pressure in the end that got him sent off, he had no intention to send Ryan off at first.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 16, 2015 8:18:18 GMT
Sol Campbell and Fabregas got him sent off. They were so busy trying to get him sent off, it was our Glenn looking after Ramsey - but the Arsenal fans don't seem to remember that..
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Post by Deleted on Sept 16, 2015 8:19:37 GMT
Not sure it puts anything to bed. Could it just mean that the ref didn't think excessive force was used, but then concluded from the injury that it must have been? I didn't hear the interview, so I don't know if any more context was given as to why the decision not to give a red card (or even a free-kick as I recall) was changed.
I'm completely on Ryan's side in this, and detest the way the Arsenal players and Wenger acted on the day and after, but I just don't think this one's ever going to go away.
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Post by Jamo on the wing on Sept 16, 2015 8:20:14 GMT
Sol Campbell and Fabregas got him sent off. They were so busy trying to get him sent off, it was our Glenn looking after Ramsey - but the Arsenal fans don't seem to remember that.. Indeed and all the vitriol could have been put to bed by simply replying with "it wasn't even a foul". Which is wasn't.
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Post by richardparker on Sept 16, 2015 8:21:25 GMT
It would have been interesting to see legal action taken against Arsenal. All those Arsewipes with their placards outside the Law Courts ...
'Wenger did see that' ... 'We didn't say Stoke City set out to maim and mutilate the Arsenal players' ...
And wouldn't a judge favour the big 6 side as much as the referees do?
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Post by sheikhmomo on Sept 16, 2015 8:34:01 GMT
You've got to have an element of sympathy with the ref. He sees Ramsey's shattered leg and must have some doubts about how he's seen the incident. You then have Sol Cuntball in your earhole telling him that Shawcross has to go. It might have been an idea though for him to tell the wider world how he saw it rather than Mark fucking Halsey though.
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Post by werrington on Sept 16, 2015 8:34:57 GMT
But Johnny Evans never got sent off for the tackle on the young Bolton lad ( Holden ) whose career actually ended after that tackle at Old Trafford when his keg was in an appalling state
I'm confused
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Post by Deleted on Sept 16, 2015 8:35:55 GMT
But Johnny Evans never got sent off for the tackle on the young Bolton lad ( Holden ) whose career actually ended after that tackle at Old Trafford I'm confused I thought he was sent off.
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Post by werrington on Sept 16, 2015 8:36:33 GMT
But Johnny Evans never got sent off for the tackle on the young Bolton lad ( Holden ) whose career actually ended after that tackle at Old Trafford I'm confused I thought he was sent off. Did he mate ?........I honestly thought he hadn't It never gets mentioned though even though his career ended whilst Ramsey has gone on
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Post by Deleted on Sept 16, 2015 8:39:43 GMT
I thought he was sent off. Did he mate ?........I honestly thought he hadn't It never gets mentioned though even though his career ended whilst Ramsey has gone on Just checked, and he was definitely sent off. The difference was that neither Holden or Bolton made anything of the incident. I think Holden quickly said it was just one of those things. Some people have class and some don't.
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Stav
Academy Starlet
Posts: 102
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Post by Stav on Sept 16, 2015 8:40:05 GMT
Peter Waltons Dad and I often meet while walking our dogs, he told me several years ago that he regretted the Shawcross sending off, and if he had his time again he would not have been sent off.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 16, 2015 8:40:30 GMT
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Post by sharonbeech21 on Sept 16, 2015 8:40:54 GMT
It's about time that the Ramsey Shawcross incident was put to bed once and for all. But there is always someone on radio or tv bring it all up again .people need to forget about it now because it's getting boring
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Post by tpholloway1 on Sept 16, 2015 8:41:45 GMT
I sit in Row 10 and the incident happened right in front of me. At first I thought the ref was giving us the foul as he had seen Bentner's tug on Ryan which caused the accident.(it would have been the first Arsenal foul he had seen). It was a poor piece of refereeing and appaling behaviour by the Arsenal players and Wenger, who only started his vitriolic attack days later. Stoke should have appealed the red card and complained to the FA about Wenger.
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Post by Jamo on the wing on Sept 16, 2015 8:44:34 GMT
Peter Waltons Dad and I often meet while walking our dogs, he told me several years ago that he regretted the Shawcross sending off, and if he had his time again he would not have been sent off. Fair play to him then, be nice if he came out and said it in the press but maybe that's asking too much. You can't send a player off if they haven't committed an offence just because another player is injured. As Momo said in the heat of the moment and with the Arse players screaming "send the murderer off" I suppose you can understand the situation he was in though.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 16, 2015 8:46:02 GMT
I sit in Row 10 and the incident happened right in front of me. At first I thought the ref was giving us the foul as he had seen Bentner's tug on Ryan which caused the accident.(it would have been the first Arsenal foul he had seen). It was a poor piece of refereeing and appaling behaviour by the Arsenal players and Wenger, who only started his vitriolic attack days later. Stoke should have appealed the red card and complained to the FA about Wenger. I suspect all of Stoke's actions were meant to dampen the flames and let the incident fade to memory as quickly as possible. I can understand the thinking behind this, but it would be interesting to know whether they feel it was the right thing to do with hindsight.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 16, 2015 8:46:05 GMT
Peter Waltons Dad and I often meet while walking our dogs, he told me several years ago that he regretted the Shawcross sending off, and if he had his time again he would not have been sent off. Interesting that. I wonder how Walton feels when he sees Shawcross continually dragged through the mud, knowing that he was feet away from the incident and didn't feel it was a tackle worthy of punishment (and I still hesitate to even call it a tackle, as Ramsey was never in possession of the ball). He must feel some guilt. I don't think it would have changed a thing. Arsenal were whipped into a frenzy when people in the media started to express sympathy for Ryan, that's when it spiralled out of all control.
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Post by rawli on Sept 16, 2015 8:47:58 GMT
Without wishing to open up old wounds, about 10 minutes ago on Talksport, Mark Halsey was on discussing last nights unfortunate injury to Luke Shaw. He went through the rules that referees have to consider, namely excessive force, and concluded that the PSV player should have been sent off. He then referred to the Shawcross/Ramsey incident and said that he'd spoken to Peter Walton who had said that having run across to see Ramsey's injury, he then sent Shawcross off. He went further and commented that "Pete said that but for the injury to Ramsey, Shawcross wouldn't have been sent off". I'm not saying that I agree with the interpretation of the law, which is could be taken as meaning that any tackle that injures an opposition player is automatically a red card offence but his comments on Shawcross/Ramsey incident were very illuminating and should put to bed once and for all the matter. It also serves to highlight how the smear campaign launched by Arsenal Football Club in general and Arsene Wenger specifically was an absolute disgrace and should have seen Stoke City take legal action against both Wenger and Arsenal. Well done. You're definitely not going to reopen the subject.
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Post by Will_75 on Sept 16, 2015 8:55:21 GMT
Sol Campbell and Fabregas got him sent off. They were so busy trying to get him sent off, it was our Glenn looking after Ramsey - but the Arsenal fans don't seem to remember that.. Quite They also don't seem to appreciate that Shawcross would not have been able to carry on anyway because he was utterly distraught.
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Post by Skankmonkey on Sept 16, 2015 8:56:33 GMT
Someone should link this thread on one of the Arse boards. That should quietly put the matter to bed. They seem a reasonable bunch.
<that bloody whistling smiley>
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Post by podolipotter on Sept 16, 2015 9:50:38 GMT
I agree with Will 75. Ryan could not have continued to play because he was so emotionally upset. However, he should have been substituted immediately before the Ref had time to think about a red card. I am sure that Walton would have been glad to see a substitution to help him out of a hole. And, how many more times do we have to say it? Ramsey's leg was going BEFORE Ryan made contact - we have all seen the relevant photograph.
Meantime, I wish young Shaw (ironical name coincidence), the very best of luck for his future and a full and speedy recovery. I think we would all say amen to that.
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Post by PotteringThrough on Sept 16, 2015 10:05:26 GMT
I agree with Will 75. Ryan could not have continued to play because he was so emotionally upset. However, he should have been substituted immediately before the Ref had time to think about a red card. I am sure that Walton would have been glad to see a substitution to help him out of a hole. And, how many more times do we have to say it? Ramsey's leg was going BEFORE Ryan made contact - we have all seen the relevant photograph. Meantime, I wish young Shaw (ironical name coincidence), the very best of luck for his future and a full and speedy recovery. I think we would all say amen to that. I think at the time the Stoke management team & players were more concerned with the injury instead of thinking about subs. Probably never even crossed their minds.
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Post by Jamo on the wing on Sept 16, 2015 10:09:22 GMT
The other thing that has surprised me is how the general consensus is that the challenge last night wasn't really a bad one at all.
Now I'm not saying it was or it wasn't, however there is a stark difference between what happened to Shaw and what happened when Ryan and Aaron Ramsey both went in for a 50/50 ball in middle of the pitch.
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Post by ukcstokie on Sept 16, 2015 10:17:10 GMT
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Post by ukcstokie on Sept 16, 2015 10:35:23 GMT
The other thing that has surprised me is how the general consensus is that the challenge last night wasn't really a bad one at all. Now I'm not saying it was or it wasn't, however there is a stark difference between what happened to Shaw and what happened when Ryan and Aaron Ramsey both went in for a 50/50 ball in middle of the pitch. Totally agree. And I'm still shocked that Stoke fans refer to Ryan's challenge as being dreadful (like on Bearpit TV).
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Post by Lakeland Potter on Sept 16, 2015 11:49:23 GMT
Peter Waltons Dad and I often meet while walking our dogs, he told me several years ago that he regretted the Shawcross sending off, and if he had his time again he would not have been sent off. Fair play to him then, be nice if he came out and said it in the press but maybe that's asking too much. You can't send a player off if they haven't committed an offence just because another player is injured. As Momo said in the heat of the moment and with the Arse players screaming "send the murderer off" I suppose you can understand the situation he was in though. Halsey commented on talksport that "intent" was no longer relevant but that excessive force was. And Walton's comments give some clarity to what happened in his mind. It seems to me that the severity of the injury made him consider that excessive force had been used (when he doesn't appear to have thought that when he saw the incident in "real time") I think his first instinct was right and he should not have changed his mind. Whatever Halsey says, a double fracture does not prove that excessive force was used, it might simply be a case of simple geometry/physics meaning that moderate force can produce a compound fracture. What this emphasises to me is that the idea that referees should not be interviewed after the match is bollox. They should be interviewed in the same way that players and managers are interviewed. If Walton had explained his position as he explained it to Halsey, it would at least have given ammunition to the critics of Wenger's tirade a day or two after the event. Because I don't think anyone in that stadium saw excessive force when they saw the events in real time.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 16, 2015 11:54:07 GMT
I agree with Will 75. Ryan could not have continued to play because he was so emotionally upset. However, he should have been substituted immediately before the Ref had time to think about a red card. I am sure that Walton would have been glad to see a substitution to help him out of a hole. And, how many more times do we have to say it? Ramsey's leg was going BEFORE Ryan made contact - we have all seen the relevant photograph. Meantime, I wish young Shaw (ironical name coincidence), the very best of luck for his future and a full and speedy recovery. I think we would all say amen to that. I think at the time the Stoke management team & players were more concerned with the injury instead of thinking about subs. Probably never even crossed their minds. and the fact they wouldn't have bee able to make the sub anyway as the ref would have to finish dealing with the incident before allowing things like subs to be made
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Post by Bick on Sept 16, 2015 11:58:52 GMT
Ramsay's injury was dreadful, nobody claims otherwise.
The big thing for me was that Campbell and Fabregas were screaming at the referee rather than tending to their injured team mate.
The only player to get down there and help console Ramsay was Glen Whelan. who was trying to calm him down and not let him see the injury.
Somehow, the Arsenal players behaviour seems to go largely unnoticed.
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