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Post by Deleted on Sept 16, 2015 12:00:11 GMT
Ramsay's injury was dreadful, nobody claims otherwise. The big thing for me was that Campbell and Fabregas were screaming at the referee rather than tending to their injured team mate. The only player to get down there and help console Ramsay was Glen Whelan. who was trying to calm him down and not let him see the injury. Somehow, the Arsenal players behaviour seems to go largely unnoticed. would have LOVED it (in a keegan style voice) if elliott had pointed that out to the Arsenal Fan TV bloke on his Bearpit TV interview when they were discussing it! |
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Post by mrcoke on Sept 16, 2015 12:51:51 GMT
If 2 players go for a 50/50 ball and one gets seriously injured how can the other player be guilty of excessive force if both players contributed to the collision (equally)?
When Gaza sustained the knee injury that effectively ended his career as I recall (my grey cells are pretty old) he effectively did it to himself didn't he, the way he went into the tackle?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 16, 2015 13:46:30 GMT
If 2 players go for a 50/50 ball and one gets seriously injured how can the other player be guilty of excessive force if both players contributed to the collision (equally)? When Gaza sustained the knee injury that effectively ended his career as I recall (my grey cells are pretty old) he effectively did it to himself didn't he, the way he went into the tackle? That's always riled me about the challenge. Arsenal had been pumped up in that game and came to Stoke determined to show they wouldn't be bullied. They were dishing it out that day. Ramsey went into that challenge at a faster speed than Ryan - but it was just a collision. Don Howe said either player could have been injured, but neither were using particularly excessive force. There really is very little correlation between the force used and injury sustained. Much of it comes down to whether the leg (and studs) is planted on the ground at the time of impact. We've all seen players jump to their feet after being clattered by a wild challenge, and people suffering horrible breaks after being barely touched. Dijbri Cisse has suffered 2 bad leg breaks from mild challenges. |
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Post by pottersrule on Sept 16, 2015 15:23:38 GMT
Without wishing to open up old wounds, about 10 minutes ago on Talksport, Mark Halsey was on discussing last nights unfortunate injury to Luke Shaw. He went through the rules that referees have to consider, namely excessive force, and concluded that the PSV player should have been sent off. He then referred to the Shawcross/Ramsey incident and said that he'd spoken to Peter Walton who had said that having run across to see Ramsey's injury, he then sent Shawcross off. He went further and commented that "Pete said that but for the injury to Ramsey, Shawcross wouldn't have been sent off". I'm not saying that I agree with the interpretation of the law, which is could be taken as meaning that any tackle that injures an opposition player is automatically a red card offence but his comments on Shawcross/Ramsey incident were very illuminating and should put to bed once and for all the matter. It also serves to highlight how the smear campaign launched by Arsenal Football Club in general and Arsene Wenger specifically was an absolute disgrace and should have seen Stoke City take legal action against both Wenger and Arsenal. I remember Pullis saying Walton had said the same to him when he asked him why Ryan had been sent off.He went on to say they hadn't appealed out of respect for Ramsey and Arsenal.I didn't agree then,or to this day,and feel an appeal would have vindicated Ryan. Unfortunately the respect shown to Arsenal was never reciprocated. |
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Post by lawrieleslie on Sept 16, 2015 15:38:36 GMT
At the time Didn't the club say that, out of respect to Ramsey and his injury, they would not appeal Ryan's red card?
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Post by Jamo on the wing on Sept 16, 2015 15:40:27 GMT
At the time Didn't the club say that, out of respect to Ramsey and his injury, they would not appeal Ryan's red card? That rings a bell. |
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sjb
Lads'n'Dads
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Post by sjb on Sept 16, 2015 15:41:49 GMT
Ramsay's injury was dreadful, nobody claims otherwise. The big thing for me was that Campbell and Fabregas were screaming at the referee rather than tending to their injured team mate. The only player to get down there and help console Ramsay was Glen Whelan. who was trying to calm him down and not let him see the injury. Somehow, the Arsenal players behaviour seems to go largely unnoticed. Perhaps, their anger in the heat of the moment was stronger than any emotions of compassion. It's not out of place. I was once out with my sister who got into an argument with some guy who shoved her to the ground and my first instinct was to swing a punch before I checked she was fine. The impulsive rage at that moment overrides every other emotion. The comparisons with other incidents are poor analogies. There was already a lot of tension between both clubs and that incident brought it all boiling over. If a player like Stones or Blind or Kompany or Lovren made that challenge, the reaction would have been very different. Best to move on from the incident. You can't be complaining about the media's obsession with the incident when you can't stop bringing it up. Both players have moved on, as have the managers. The fans should do the same. |
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Post by pottersrule on Sept 16, 2015 15:42:23 GMT
At the time Didn't the club say that, out of respect to Ramsey and his injury, they would not appeal Ryan's red card? See post above yours |
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Post by ukcstokie on Sept 16, 2015 15:53:28 GMT
If 2 players go for a 50/50 ball and one gets seriously injured how can the other player be guilty of excessive force if both players contributed to the collision (equally)? When Gaza sustained the knee injury that effectively ended his career as I recall (my grey cells are pretty old) he effectively did it to himself didn't he, the way he went into the tackle? The idea that an injury is always caused by an opposition player and that punishment should be proportionate to the injury. In that case, when Mama had his career ending injury at the Brit, should the nearest Spurs player be held culpable? |
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Post by terrorofturfmoor on Sept 16, 2015 16:03:02 GMT
Sol Campbell and Fabregas got him sent off. They were so busy trying to get him sent off, it was our Glenn looking after Ramsey - but the Arsenal fans don't seem to remember that.. Campbell was more concerned that it wasn't a black player Shawcross had Knobbled!!! |
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Post by iplayinthehole on Sept 16, 2015 16:04:40 GMT
Didn't the ref say something at the time like, 'I'm sending you off to protect you' or something to that affect - knowing he wouldn't be able to continue either?
Seems to ring a bell...
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Post by mrcoke on Sept 16, 2015 16:16:56 GMT
Didn't the ref say something at the time like, 'I'm sending you off to protect you' or something to that affect - knowing he wouldn't be able to continue either? Seems to ring a bell... Ryan was distraught and on the point tears as I remember. |
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Post by Spiros on Sept 16, 2015 16:45:14 GMT
I recall the fuss that Stoke made when Rory Delap had an identical injury.
Stoke rotten to the core as they were in those days visited him hospital.
Then the much maligned club played up to their stereotype and honoured a promise to sign him up permanently.
Surely not an honourable thing to do.
Then again Stoke in all sincerity showed the true class that Arsenal could never show.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 16, 2015 18:27:29 GMT
This has always been the issue for me, mate. If I recall correctly Walton didn't even blow for a foul at first and as Halsey says, only decided to send Ryan off when he realised that Ramsey had been badly injured which has to be wrong. I have always and adamantly maintained that as sad and awful as the lad's injury was, it was just one of those things that can happen in sport. Who knows, had Ryan not have been sent off perhaps he wouldn't have been as vilified as he has been. Spot on except Winger would have still persecuted Ryan no matter what the card. Anyone remember David Busst and his injury at Old Trafford I do not recall this type of outcry then with Irwin or Maclair. |
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Post by maninasuitcase on Sept 16, 2015 19:23:36 GMT
What about eduardo getting his leg/foot smashed at brum.
That cunt wenger wanted Martin taylor banned for life.
However Eduardo accepted taylors apology and it was quickly forgotten.
However cos Ramsey was such a cunt towards shawcross attempt to apologise this incident will never go away and for that alone my hatred of arsenal will stay with me to the grave.
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Post by maninasuitcase on Sept 16, 2015 19:24:35 GMT
I recall the fuss that Stoke made when Rory Delap had an identical injury. Stoke rotten to the core as they were in those days visited him hospital. Then the much maligned club played up to their stereotype and honoured a promise to sign him up permanently. Surely not an honourable thing to do. Then again Stoke in all sincerity showed the true class that Arsenal could never show. Amen brother. |
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Post by wrighter on Sept 16, 2015 19:47:17 GMT
I"ve watched " the incident" many times in slow mo, and im still convinced Ramsey"s leg was broken before the tackle.
Just my opinion
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Post by Pretty Little Boother on Sept 16, 2015 19:58:23 GMT
The correct course of action should have been for Ramsey to be taken off, Campbell and Fabregas to be booked for harassing the referee, no action against Shawcross, free kick to Stoke for the shirt grab on Shawcross.
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Post by blurtonboy on Sept 16, 2015 20:26:40 GMT
At the time Didn't the club say that, out of respect to Ramsey and his injury, they would not appeal Ryan's red card? That rings a bell. Quasimodo? |
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Post by potterglen on Sept 16, 2015 20:27:41 GMT
It's about time that the Ramsey Shawcross incident was put to bed once and for all. But there is always someone on radio or tv bring it all up again .people need to forget about it now because it's getting boring Pity the Stoke fans at Saturdays game don't agree with you, the booing started the minute Ramseys face appeared on the team intro. Saturday was the opportunity to finally put the incident to bed but no, the minority started. |
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Post by interestedobserver on Sept 16, 2015 20:31:42 GMT
I think it's absolutely disgraceful the way Shawcross has been treated. I don't really blame Campbell and Fabergas for being upset in the moment. But the fact that Arsenal (and the press) has let this shit persist for years is pathetic.
Compare the persistence of this issue with the reaction to Jonny Evans absolute horror tackle on Stuart Holden -- which essentially ended Holden's career, and for which Holden has publicly forgiven Evans. I don't quite think Evans has had that tackle follow him around like a plague, has he?
Again, I don't really fault any player who blows his cool when a teammate is injured. But to drag Ryan's name through the mud for years is disgraceful and far more unprofessional than the original tackle.
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Post by StoKeith on Sept 17, 2015 5:08:48 GMT
If 2 players go for a 50/50 ball and one gets seriously injured how can the other player be guilty of excessive force if both players contributed to the collision (equally)? When Gaza sustained the knee injury that effectively ended his career as I recall (my grey cells are pretty old) he effectively did it to himself didn't he, the way he went into the tackle? That's always riled me about the challenge. Arsenal had been pumped up in that game and came to Stoke determined to show they wouldn't be bullied. They were dishing it out that day. Ramsey went into that challenge at a faster speed than Ryan - but it was just a collision. Don Howe said either player could have been injured, but neither were using particularly excessive force. There really is very little correlation between the force used and injury sustained. Much of it comes down to whether the leg (and studs) is planted on the ground at the time of impact. We've all seen players jump to their feet after being clattered by a wild challenge, and people suffering horrible breaks after being barely touched. Dijbri Cisse has suffered 2 bad leg breaks from mild challenges. This hits the nail on the head to explain why the injury was so bad. Essentially, Ramsey put himself into a very vulnerable position by diving in recklessly and planting his studs into the ground so that ANY contact with his shin would have the potential to break his leg. Collisional energy has to be dissipated somehow and usually it is dissipated by the withdrawal of the leg. If you put yourself in a position where your studs are planted in the ground at an awkward angle, then quite frankly you're asking for trouble. I suppose I'm glad to hear the ref regrets his decision to send him off. It would be nice if he made that opinion public next time this is in the media (our next home game against Arsenal), although I can't blame him for not saying it as he'd end up being lynched by a bunch of hysterical knicker-wetting Arsenal fans. |
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Post by Northy on Sept 17, 2015 7:07:18 GMT
I"ve watched " the incident" many times in slow mo, and im still convinced Ramsey"s leg was broken before the tackle. Just my opinion it was, he jumped in 2 footed and it snapped as he landed |
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Post by Squeekster on Sept 17, 2015 8:10:34 GMT
I recall the fuss that Stoke made when Rory Delap had an identical injury. Stoke rotten to the core as they were in those days visited him hospital. Then the much maligned club played up to their stereotype and honoured a promise to sign him up permanently. Surely not an honourable thing to do. Then again Stoke in all sincerity showed the true class that Arsenal could never show. Now that was a deliberate tackle to do damage and it wouldn't surprise me if Keane hadn't instigated it as well. |
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Post by Davef on Sept 17, 2015 8:14:56 GMT
I"ve watched " the incident" many times in slow mo, and im still convinced Ramsey"s leg was broken before the tackle. Just my opinion it was, he jumped in 2 footed and it snapped as he landed He didn't jump in two footed. For heaven's sake, we can't go making things up. |
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Post by Lakeland Potter on Sept 17, 2015 8:29:13 GMT
it was, he jumped in 2 footed and it snapped as he landed He didn't jump in two footed. For heaven's sake, we can't go making things up. Correct, if he had jumped in two footed there is a good chance he would not have broken his leg. |
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Post by metalhead on Sept 17, 2015 9:09:51 GMT
I"ve watched " the incident" many times in slow mo, and im still convinced Ramsey"s leg was broken before the tackle. Just my opinion No it wasn't. I've watched it plenty of times too, and to me, it looks as though his leg is twisted slightly, but most importantly, it's planted on the ground with his studs caught in the turf. A combination of horrific bad luck. If his leg was just an inch off the floor, Shawcross would have sent Ramsey 8 foot in the air but he would have probably finished the game with nothing but a heavy bruise. It's the combination of his leg being twisted and also his studs being caught in the turf that when Shawcross hit him, all the force of the challenge went straight through his leg. When you see all these horrific challenges where they're high up, but the player walks after, almost all of them have the same characteristic which is the leg being hit is not usually the standing leg or planted. The momentum is shifted into the air, whereas if the foot is planted the momentum is shifted through the leg into the ground effectively. Shawcross' tackle on Ramsey, really wasn't that bad compared to some challenges we've seen, but suggesting he wasn't at least partly to blame for Ramsey's injury is really not the right way to go about this. |
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Post by ladyinred on Sept 17, 2015 9:48:34 GMT
He didn't jump in two footed. For heaven's sake, we can't go making things up. Correct, if he had jumped in two footed there is a good chance he would not have broken his leg. It wasn't two footed, but he did leap into the challenge, both feet off the floor, landing on his front foot, twisting his ankle as he did so. |
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Post by Northy on Sept 17, 2015 11:32:50 GMT
it was, he jumped in 2 footed and it snapped as he landed He didn't jump in two footed. For heaven's sake, we can't go making things up. Sorry, I meant he jumped with 2 feet off the ground uncontrolled |
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Post by Davef on Sept 17, 2015 11:41:02 GMT
He didn't jump in two footed. For heaven's sake, we can't go making things up. Sorry, I meant he jumped with 2 feet off the ground uncontrolled I really don't agree. Ramsey was stretching and his intention was to nick the loose the ball away. You can find hundreds of still photographs of players in situations where both feet are off the ground as they pass, shoot or even go in for a tackle. It doesn't mean they're out of control. |
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