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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2015 23:29:37 GMT
To be honest though, no government can force any employer to pay someone more than the minimum wage. Any chance of putting pressure on employers to do so was squashed with Browns catastrophic tax credit scheme. There has to be a way for working folk to have a minimum standard of living protected by law. I guess I'm promulgating a pre thatcher era, of price and wage controls. The free market has gone too far. Folk only want a chance, that's all. There is a simple solution to that one , but no government has had the guts (or arguably the initial funding required ) or motivation to do it .... Put all pension funds back into the Public sector and convert them into Pension bonds guaranteed by the state . A non profit making pension fund where profits are accrued and annuitites are designated according to how much has been paid in . In order for this to work in practise , a minimum wage agreement has to be enforced for its entirety and a minimum percentage pension contribution made mandatory for the whole of society . At the moment we have a free market economy which effectively means that private enterprise is taking its cut out of our hard earned .... This can range (from memory ) from 1-3 percent of your annual contribution . It can do fantastically well (depending on the expertise of the fund management team ) or exceptionally shit if it is based on the stock market conditions at the time you decide to take it . By putting all this back into the public sector , it would alleviate such massive discrepancies in market fund values and notional fund fees.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2015 23:33:49 GMT
There has to be a way for working folk to have a minimum standard of living protected by law. I guess I'm promulgating a pre thatcher era, of price and wage controls. The free market has gone too far. Folk only want a chance, that's all. There is a simple solution to that one , but no government has had the guts (or arguably the initial funding required ) or motivation to do it .... Put all pension funds back into the Public sector and convert them into Pension bonds guaranteed by the state . A non profit making pension fund where profits are accrued and annuitites are designated according to how much has been paid in . In order for this to work in practise , a minimum wage agreement has to be enforced for its entirety and a minimum percentage pension contribution made mandatory for the whole of society . At the moment we have a free market economy which effectively means that private enterprise is taking its cut out of our hard earned .... This can range (from memory ) from 1-3 percent of your annual contribution . It can do fantastically well (depending on the expertise of the fund management team ) or exceptionally shit if it is based on the stock market conditions at the time you decide to take it . By putting all this back into the public sector , it would alleviate such massive discrepancies in market fund values and notional fund fees. We already operate a similar scheme ....it's called PAYE and national insurance contributions ..... It just needs extending . I feel sure that some day this will happen ...it will have to , but not before I retire .
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2015 23:58:57 GMT
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Post by JoeinOz on Apr 27, 2015 1:46:18 GMT
Boris could be the next tory leader? Is that right??
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Post by bathstoke on Apr 27, 2015 7:35:57 GMT
Milliband is a disgusting fuckwit who sounds like he's talking through his arse. God help the country if this prick gets in power. Some people have short memories and have already forgotten the total mess the cunts left the country in the last time we trusted them to run the country. They shouldn't be trusted to organise a piss up in a brewery, never mind run the country. Gouranga. I must have a short memory, cause I thought it was the 2008 world economic crisis...
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Post by lawrieleslie on Apr 27, 2015 8:36:03 GMT
My input on zero hours contracts is they are immoral, a tool for exploitation and should be illegal in all forms. Been here before. Zero hours contracts suit many people's life styles, small businesses couldn't function against larger conglomerates without them and some public sectors would not function without them for example NHS banks. Yes there is no doubt much exploitation occurring but outlawing ZHCs would be madness. It would be like labours attempt at banning fox hunting for the sake of saving vermin but ruining businesses, lifestyles and jobs in the process.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2015 8:41:12 GMT
My input on zero hours contracts is they are immoral, a tool for exploitation and should be illegal in all forms. Been here before. Zero hours contracts suit many people's life styles, small businesses couldn't function against larger conglomerates without them and some public sectors would not function without them for example NHS banks. Yes there is no doubt exploitation but outlawing ZHCs would be madness. There has to be another way. The average annual turnover of staff for companies that operate this system is more than 50 % There are no union rights . There is no sick pay . There is no holiday pay . The pay is lower. There is no grievance procedure . There is no pension provision . Good idea....where do I sign .?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2015 8:43:32 GMT
Guess who bails them out when such workers retire with no pension ?
You do !
Short termism.....see Tory central office for further details .!
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Post by lawrieleslie on Apr 27, 2015 8:49:31 GMT
Been here before. Zero hours contracts suit many people's life styles, small businesses couldn't function against larger conglomerates without them and some public sectors would not function without them for example NHS banks. Yes there is no doubt exploitation but outlawing ZHCs would be madness. There has to be another way. The average annual turnover of staff for companies that operate this system is more than 50 % There are no union rights . There is no sick pay . There is no holiday pay . The pay is lower. There is no grievance procedure . There is no pension provision . Good idea....where do I sign .? As I said there is exploitation no doubt about it but you have cherry picked your statistics to suit your agenda. There are many people who's lifestyle suit ZHCs so you cannot possibly paint them all with the same brush. But of course labour are not concerned with businesses operating against large conglomerates are they? Many jobs and businesses will go to the wall if they are outlawed. I repeat that there has to be another way of stopping the exploitation without outlawing ZHCs.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2015 8:55:53 GMT
First off ....."Cherry picked to suit my agenda ....."
No ...this applies to all .
The only people who chose to do this are those who have no other option .....See the GMB Union fact sheet for details
The only cherry picking that's done is by foreign agricultural workers exploited by fruit farmers in Home Counties South . Many lucky to receive the minimum wage . Very popular in East Anglia and South west in particular .
Gang masters 'R' us syndrome
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Post by lawrieleslie on Apr 27, 2015 9:26:24 GMT
First off ....."Cherry picked to suit my agenda ....." No ...this applies to all . The only people who chose to do this are those who have no other option .....See the GMB Union fact sheet for details The only cherry picking that's done is by foreign agricultural workers exploited by fruit farmers in Home Counties South . Many lucky to receive the minimum wage . Very popular in East Anglia and South west in particular . Gang masters 'R' us syndrome Not disagreeing that there is exploitation in many sectors and many areas of the country. But a blanket outlawing of ZHCs would harm jobs and businesses. I've stated before that my son in law operates a fruit and veg farm in the South Hams and issues ZHCs that his local work force are happy with. He pays NMW but offers, at the moment, almost unlimited overtime from 7am until it goes dark because of the good weather that has given s record strawberry and asparagus harvest. This will continue right through the summer and autumn as crops mature. He admits he could at present put his workforce on full time contracts but if the weather changes and crops are minimised or wiped out,as they were three years ago, he would go to the wall with the loss of his business and jobs. He is supplying to wholesalers who in turn are competing against Tesco, Morrisons, Sainsburies so costs have to be kept down to do this and ZHCs is one way of doing this. This is repeated across many crop farms in the South Hams run by decent people and not "Gang Masters" as you put it. I repeat myself again that exploitation of workers is wrong and must be outlawed but not by a blanket outlawing of ZHCs. Perhaps outlawing big supermarket policies of dictating prices paid to farmers may be one way of dealing with exploitation in the agricultural industry. You have to look at the bigger picture and not hide behind Union fact sheets that don't tell the full story.
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Post by salopstick on Apr 27, 2015 9:46:13 GMT
First off ....."Cherry picked to suit my agenda ....." No ...this applies to all . The only people who chose to do this are those who have no other option .....See the GMB Union fact sheet for details The only cherry picking that's done is by foreign agricultural workers exploited by fruit farmers in Home Counties South . Many lucky to receive the minimum wage . Very popular in East Anglia and South west in particular . Gang masters 'R' us syndrome Not disagreeing that there is exploitation in many sectors and many areas of the country. But a blanket outlawing of ZHCs would harm jobs and businesses. I've stated before that my son in law operates a fruit and veg farm in the South Hams and issues ZHCs that his local work force are happy with. He pays NMW but offers, at the moment, almost unlimited overtime from 7am until it goes dark because of the good weather that has given s record strawberry and asparagus harvest. This will continue right through the summer and autumn as crops mature. He admits he could at present put his workforce on full time contracts but if the weather changes and crops are minimised or wiped out,as they were three years ago, he would go to the wall with the loss of his business and jobs. He is supplying to wholesalers who in turn are competing against Tesco, Morrisons, Sainsburies so costs have to be kept down to do this and ZHCs is one way of doing this. This is repeated across many crop farms in the South Hams run by decent people and not "Gang Masters" as you put it. I repeat myself again that exploitation of workers is wrong and must be outlawed but not by a blanket outlawing of ZHCs. Perhaps outlawing big supermarket policies of dictating prices paid to farmers may be one way of dealing with exploitation in the agricultural industry. You have to look at the bigger picture and not hide behind Union fact sheets that don't tell the full story. Some people can't see woods though the trees
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Post by harryburrows on Apr 27, 2015 11:03:33 GMT
Getting your facts from the telegraph now
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2015 11:06:21 GMT
Yes...I'm glad you approve .
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Post by harryburrows on Apr 27, 2015 11:09:13 GMT
Yes...I'm glad you approve .
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2015 11:17:54 GMT
First off ....."Cherry picked to suit my agenda ....." No ...this applies to all . The only people who chose to do this are those who have no other option .....See the GMB Union fact sheet for details The only cherry picking that's done is by foreign agricultural workers exploited by fruit farmers in Home Counties South . Many lucky to receive the minimum wage . Very popular in East Anglia and South west in particular . Gang masters 'R' us syndrome Not disagreeing that there is exploitation in many sectors and many areas of the country. But a blanket outlawing of ZHCs would harm jobs and businesses. I've stated before that my son in law operates a fruit and veg farm in the South Hams and issues ZHCs that his local work force are happy with. He pays NMW but offers, at the moment, almost unlimited overtime from 7am until it goes dark because of the good weather that has given s record strawberry and asparagus harvest. This will continue right through the summer and autumn as crops mature. He admits he could at present put his workforce on full time contracts but if the weather changes and crops are minimised or wiped out,as they were three years ago, he would go to the wall with the loss of his business and jobs. He is supplying to wholesalers who in turn are competing against Tesco, Morrisons, Sainsburies so costs have to be kept down to do this and ZHCs is one way of doing this. This is repeated across many crop farms in the South Hams run by decent people and not "Gang Masters" as you put it. I repeat myself again that exploitation of workers is wrong and must be outlawed but not by a blanket outlawing of ZHCs. Perhaps outlawing big supermarket policies of dictating prices paid to farmers may be one way of dealing with exploitation in the agricultural industry. You have to look at the bigger picture and not hide behind Union fact sheets that don't tell the full story. You paint a very rosey picture of something that you personally have never had to experience yourself . The fact that he pays the national minimum wage says more about his business ethic that anything I could . You see he has a choice to pay more but chosen not too. Very very rarely are crops wiped out and with farmers you never hear about the good times . The guy is a millionaire . He is not the man working 14 hour back breaking shifts for fuck all . That is the reality of the situation . I would never pay the minimum wage to anyone and I run a far smaller operation where there is just as much competition but it's all down to how ruthless and greedy the individual is . I have worked for the NFU and other insurance companies in different roles and Went to Agricultural college when I left school so I have witnessed first hand how many poor farmers and land owners there are ..... But back to Hampshire and gang masters .... www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-15563537
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Post by desman2 on Apr 27, 2015 11:31:11 GMT
Not disagreeing that there is exploitation in many sectors and many areas of the country. But a blanket outlawing of ZHCs would harm jobs and businesses. I've stated before that my son in law operates a fruit and veg farm in the South Hams and issues ZHCs that his local work force are happy with. He pays NMW but offers, at the moment, almost unlimited overtime from 7am until it goes dark because of the good weather that has given s record strawberry and asparagus harvest. This will continue right through the summer and autumn as crops mature. He admits he could at present put his workforce on full time contracts but if the weather changes and crops are minimised or wiped out,as they were three years ago, he would go to the wall with the loss of his business and jobs. He is supplying to wholesalers who in turn are competing against Tesco, Morrisons, Sainsburies so costs have to be kept down to do this and ZHCs is one way of doing this. This is repeated across many crop farms in the South Hams run by decent people and not "Gang Masters" as you put it. I repeat myself again that exploitation of workers is wrong and must be outlawed but not by a blanket outlawing of ZHCs. Perhaps outlawing big supermarket policies of dictating prices paid to farmers may be one way of dealing with exploitation in the agricultural industry. You have to look at the bigger picture and not hide behind Union fact sheets that don't tell the full story. You paint a very rosey picture of something that you personally have never had to experience yourself . The fact that he pays the national minimum wage says more about his business ethic that anything I could . You see he has a choice to pay more but chosen not too. Very very rarely are crops wiped out and with farmers you never hear about the good times . The guy is a millionaire . He is not the man working 14 hour back breaking shifts for fuck all . That is the reality of the situation . I would never pay the minimum wage to anyone and I run a far smaller operation where there is just as much competition but it's all down to how ruthless and greedy the individual is . I have worked for the NFU and other insurance companies in different roles and Went to Agricultural college when I left school so I have witnessed first hand how many poor farmers and land owners there are ..... But back to Hampshire and gang masters .... www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-15563537The fact is they are exploited everywhere. Its not just gangmasters. The unions themselves support the import of foreign workers yet at the same time bitch about low pay. It seems everyone except those who's ears should be open can see whats going on.
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Post by lawrieleslie on Apr 27, 2015 11:41:56 GMT
Not disagreeing that there is exploitation in many sectors and many areas of the country. But a blanket outlawing of ZHCs would harm jobs and businesses. I've stated before that my son in law operates a fruit and veg farm in the South Hams and issues ZHCs that his local work force are happy with. He pays NMW but offers, at the moment, almost unlimited overtime from 7am until it goes dark because of the good weather that has given s record strawberry and asparagus harvest. This will continue right through the summer and autumn as crops mature. He admits he could at present put his workforce on full time contracts but if the weather changes and crops are minimised or wiped out,as they were three years ago, he would go to the wall with the loss of his business and jobs. He is supplying to wholesalers who in turn are competing against Tesco, Morrisons, Sainsburies so costs have to be kept down to do this and ZHCs is one way of doing this. This is repeated across many crop farms in the South Hams run by decent people and not "Gang Masters" as you put it. I repeat myself again that exploitation of workers is wrong and must be outlawed but not by a blanket outlawing of ZHCs. Perhaps outlawing big supermarket policies of dictating prices paid to farmers may be one way of dealing with exploitation in the agricultural industry. You have to look at the bigger picture and not hide behind Union fact sheets that don't tell the full story. You paint a very rosey picture of something that you personally have never had to experience yourself . The fact that he pays the national minimum wage says more about his business ethic that anything I could . You see he has a choice to pay more but chosen not too. Very very rarely are crops wiped out and with farmers you never hear about the good times . The guy is a millionaire . He is not the man working 14 hour back breaking shifts for fuck all . That is the reality of the situation . I would never pay the minimum wage to anyone and I run a far smaller operation where there is just as much competition but it's all down to how ruthless and greedy the individual is . I have worked for the NFU and other insurance companies in different roles and Went to Agricultural college when I left school so I have witnessed first hand how many poor farmers and land owners there are ..... But back to Hampshire and gang masters .... www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-15563537How the flying fuck would you know about his business ethics and that he has a choice to pay more than the NMW you ignorant man! I have already told you that he and many other food producers are up against the supermarkets so have to keep costs down. My son in law is not a millionaire far from it and it's him who takes the risks of investing in his crops, running the risk of poor yield if the weather is bad. yes he did loose most of his crops three years ago.....tomatoes, late strawberries, potatoes, beans, onions and more. But I know ......let's pay everybody in farming £12 and hour regardless of workload, doesn't matter that businesses and jobs will go to the wall because hey this is the utopian socialist ideal everybody earning the same. You need to get into the real world mate instead of your socialist glass house.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2015 13:23:16 GMT
You paint a very rosey picture of something that you personally have never had to experience yourself . The fact that he pays the national minimum wage says more about his business ethic that anything I could . You see he has a choice to pay more but chosen not too. Very very rarely are crops wiped out and with farmers you never hear about the good times . The guy is a millionaire . He is not the man working 14 hour back breaking shifts for fuck all . That is the reality of the situation . I would never pay the minimum wage to anyone and I run a far smaller operation where there is just as much competition but it's all down to how ruthless and greedy the individual is . I have worked for the NFU and other insurance companies in different roles and Went to Agricultural college when I left school so I have witnessed first hand how many poor farmers and land owners there are ..... But back to Hampshire and gang masters .... www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-15563537How the flying fuck would you know about his business ethics and that he has a choice to pay more than the NMW you ignorant man! I have already told you that he and many other food producers are up against the supermarkets so have to keep costs down. My son in law is not a millionaire far from it and it's him who takes the risks of investing in his crops, running the risk of poor yield if the weather is bad. yes he did loose most of his crops three years ago.....tomatoes, late strawberries, potatoes, beans, onions and more. But I know ......let's pay everybody in farming £12 and hour regardless of workload, doesn't matter that businesses and jobs will go to the wall because hey this is the utopian socialist ideal everybody earning the same. You need to get into the real world mate instead of your socialist glass house. Because he pays the lowest crap wages he can get away with like the rest of them do . How many acres did he inherit ? He must be the only person in the county in his line of business who 's not a millionaire ! Edit : Make that 'country' How much did his last tractor cost ? Let's see who's ignorant now eh ? I wonder how many hours of slave labour does it take to buy an £80,000 tractor .? Please see my signature at the bottom for details
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2015 13:30:11 GMT
I wonder what his workers invest in ....3oz of spam and a pair of steel toe caps from Windsor shoes .... But they luv eet .
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Post by lawrieleslie on Apr 27, 2015 14:08:26 GMT
How the flying fuck would you know about his business ethics and that he has a choice to pay more than the NMW you ignorant man! I have already told you that he and many other food producers are up against the supermarkets so have to keep costs down. My son in law is not a millionaire far from it and it's him who takes the risks of investing in his crops, running the risk of poor yield if the weather is bad. yes he did loose most of his crops three years ago.....tomatoes, late strawberries, potatoes, beans, onions and more. But I know ......let's pay everybody in farming £12 and hour regardless of workload, doesn't matter that businesses and jobs will go to the wall because hey this is the utopian socialist ideal everybody earning the same. You need to get into the real world mate instead of your socialist glass house. Because he pays the lowest crap wages he can get away with like the rest of them do . How many acres did he inherit ? He must be the only person in the county in his line of business who 's not a millionaire ! How much did his last tractor cost ? Let's see who's ignorant now eh ? I wonder how many hours of slave labour does it take to buy an £80,000 tractor .? You haven't got a fucking clue have you. He isn't a land owner, he rents. If you knew what he has gone through over the last three years to keep his business and jobs alive then you would have a different view. You are a typical socialist clamouring for the downfall of anybody who tries to make a go if it themselves to create jobs and provide for his own family. If you are so all about regarding farming then you might have some idea that a tractor is an essential tool for working a farm. As I said before you really are an ignorant man. I will bow out if this pointless discussion with you before I say something that will get me banned.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2015 14:12:32 GMT
Are you so rude in real life mumf Do you talk to people this way face to face or is it just the troll in you
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2015 14:14:20 GMT
.........and you are a typical Conservative.
There's quite a few nasty assertions and generalisations you make there . We are not all lazy bastuurds .
The one thing I do know though , is that Tractors don't come cheap and its takes many hours of slave labour to buy . Whether you own the land or rent it is immaterial ...
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Post by salopstick on Apr 27, 2015 14:15:17 GMT
I preferred the right wing, anti immigrant, landlord, mumf
Not this left wing hadn't got a clue version.
You can throw Union facts all day long. Their closed shop policy did as much damage
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2015 14:18:57 GMT
Are you so rude in real life mumf Do you talk to people this way face to face or is it just the troll in you I speak my mind .
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Post by lawrieleslie on Apr 27, 2015 14:30:31 GMT
.........and you are a typical Conservative. There's quite a few nasty assertions and generalisations you make there . We are not all lazy bastuurds . The one thing I do know though , is that Tractors don't come cheap and its takes many hours of slave labour to buy . Whether you own the land or rent it is immaterial ... Yeh....whatever. As I said I'm out of this one it's like talking to a monkey baring its arse up a tree.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2015 14:33:15 GMT
I don't blame you either ,....I've just been googling Tractors prices ....
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Post by lawrieleslie on Apr 27, 2015 14:46:58 GMT
I don't blame you either ,....I've just been googling Tractors prices .... Forgot to mention he has two tractors. Just imagine all those slaves working away from 7am until sunset eating their spam sandwich during their ten minute lunch break and comparing steel toe-capped boots just to pay for those Massey Ferguson beauties
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2015 14:49:55 GMT
As the old adage goes " never a truer word said in jest "
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Post by harryburrows on Apr 27, 2015 15:01:11 GMT
I preferred the right wing, anti immigrant, landlord, mumf Not this left wing hadn't got a clue version. You can throw Union facts all day long. Their closed shop policy did as much damage Of course they did AL but it doesn't suit their bullshit agenda , the communist led unions lost more jobs for working people than any Tory government ever did , labour have never created jobs whilst in office .
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