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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2015 12:24:36 GMT
Have to say I agree with pretty much everything. Tredwell just isn't a Test match spinner. He was comfortably out bowled by Root yesterday - and with a decent attacking spinner we would have had a much better chance of winning. I'd like to see the combination of an off spinner and a leg spinner working in tandem with Ali and Rashid. We need to be encouraging our spinners - and not potentially have them on their second tour without contributing (if they don't play Rashid). Should they drop Trott? It would be out of character of this England setup. I think they'll give him the second test and bring Lythe in for the final test if he fails again. They'll probably replace Tradwell with Ali (because they have to play Ali after flying him out there don't they?). But they need to be braver - but I doubt they will. I don't think they will drop Trott, they have made it obvious that he was wanted back within the set up, his recall has been very obviously fast tracked ...to the extent of promoting him to open the innings , which although I'm a big fan of his I'm don't think he's suited to ....he does not have the technique for opening the batting in my view although he ought to have having batted so much of his career at number three, at the moment he seems to have a very exaggerated movement of the back foot caused by his tendency to fall over towards the offside.....no time between these tests for an out of form player to work on any problems either ....he's just got to either stick it out I the middle if he can and play his way through it or be left out ....I think the former will be most likely outcome ( hopefully ) it remains to be seen if he's able to do it given that he looks so out of Nick at the present.
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Post by partickpotter on Apr 18, 2015 12:55:51 GMT
A thought.
The arguments for the changes we've been discussing are all about picking the best side to win this series.
The argument for making the solitary change (Ali for Treadwell) is more about using this series as preparation for the Ashes. Indeed bringing Ali over at all suggests this is where the management's thinking lies.
Personally I prefer the former although I understand the rationale in the latter which I reckon has served us badly in the recent past, as we've stuck rigidly to selection plans and tactical plans regardless of form or situations. Rigid thinking has become a hugely limiting characteristic of our cricket.
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Post by ukcstokie on Apr 18, 2015 13:04:16 GMT
Have to say I agree with pretty much everything. Tredwell just isn't a Test match spinner. He was comfortably out bowled by Root yesterday - and with a decent attacking spinner we would have had a much better chance of winning. I'd like to see the combination of an off spinner and a leg spinner working in tandem with Ali and Rashid. We need to be encouraging our spinners - and not potentially have them on their second tour without contributing (if they don't play Rashid). Should they drop Trott? It would be out of character of this England setup. I think they'll give him the second test and bring Lythe in for the final test if he fails again. They'll probably replace Tradwell with Ali (because they have to play Ali after flying him out there don't they?). But they need to be braver - but I doubt they will. I don't think they will drop Trott, they have made it obvious that he was wanted back within the set up, his recall has been very obviously fast tracked ...to the extent of promoting him to open the innings , which although I'm a big fan of his I'm don't think he's suited to ....he does not have the technique for opening the batting in my view although he ought to have having batted so much of his career at number three, at the moment he seems to have a very exaggerated movement of the back foot caused by his tendency to fall over towards the offside.....no time between these tests for an out of form player to work on any problems either ....he's just got to either stick it out I the middle if he can and play his way through it or be left out ....I think the former will be most likely outcome ( hopefully ) it remains to be seen if he's able to do it given that he looks so out of Nick at the present. yes...and if they dropped Trott so quickly (when he's obviously part of their project), people would have to ask questions about their perseverance with Cooke after so many failures.
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Post by ukcstokie on Apr 18, 2015 13:08:34 GMT
A thought. The arguments for the changes we've been discussing are all about picking the best side to win this series. The argument for making the solitary change (Ali for Treadwell) is more about using this series as preparation for the Ashes. Indeed bringing Ali over at all suggests this is where the management's thinking lies. Personally I prefer the former although I understand the rationale in the latter which I reckon has served us badly in the recent past, as we've stuck rigidly to selection plans and tactical plans regardless of form or situations. Rigid thinking has become a hugely limiting characteristic of our cricket. Rigid thinking with the emphasis on safety and conservative selection has been holding English cricket back for quite a few years now.
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Post by partickpotter on Apr 18, 2015 15:22:48 GMT
I don't think they will drop Trott, they have made it obvious that he was wanted back within the set up, his recall has been very obviously fast tracked ...to the extent of promoting him to open the innings , which although I'm a big fan of his I'm don't think he's suited to ....he does not have the technique for opening the batting in my view although he ought to have having batted so much of his career at number three, at the moment he seems to have a very exaggerated movement of the back foot caused by his tendency to fall over towards the offside.....no time between these tests for an out of form player to work on any problems either ....he's just got to either stick it out I the middle if he can and play his way through it or be left out ....I think the former will be most likely outcome ( hopefully ) it remains to be seen if he's able to do it given that he looks so out of Nick at the present. yes...and if they dropped Trott so quickly (when he's obviously part of their project), people would have to ask questions about their perseverance with Cooke after so many failures. What to do about Alistair? If his poor run continues through this series and New Zealand it's hard to see him picking it up against Australia's far superior bowling attack. But dropping your captain and opening bat immediately before the Ashes is unthinkable. So what to do? If he is still not scoring at the end of the current series I'd take the captaincy off him for the two tests against NZ. Let him focus purely on his batting. (Bell would replace him as skipper). Still no runs after those games I'd put him on a two match notice v Australia. After that you're out. Ultimately it's in Cook's hands. The above is quite generous based on the fact he has been an awesome player. But that was then, and this is now.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2015 16:00:26 GMT
I don't think they will drop Trott, they have made it obvious that he was wanted back within the set up, his recall has been very obviously fast tracked ...to the extent of promoting him to open the innings , which although I'm a big fan of his I'm don't think he's suited to ....he does not have the technique for opening the batting in my view although he ought to have having batted so much of his career at number three, at the moment he seems to have a very exaggerated movement of the back foot caused by his tendency to fall over towards the offside.....no time between these tests for an out of form player to work on any problems either ....he's just got to either stick it out I the middle if he can and play his way through it or be left out ....I think the former will be most likely outcome ( hopefully ) it remains to be seen if he's able to do it given that he looks so out of Nick at the present. yes...and if they dropped Trott so quickly (when he's obviously part of their project), people would have to ask questions about their perseverance with Cooke after so many failures. Cook's last four innings last summer were 95 , 70 not out , 17 and 76 , so he was running into a bit of form prior to the winter one day pantomime ....I was hoping that the winter rest may have benefited him ....it may yet have done so , we need his runs if we are to win back the ashes . '
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Post by partickpotter on Apr 18, 2015 17:50:01 GMT
yes...and if they dropped Trott so quickly (when he's obviously part of their project), people would have to ask questions about their perseverance with Cooke after so many failures. Cook's last four innings last summer were 95 , 70 not out , 17 and 76 , so he was running into a bit of form prior to the winter one day pantomime ....I was hoping that the winter rest may have benefited him ....it may yet have done so , we need his runs if we are to win back the ashes . ' I remember those innings - he had a huge amount of luck in all those knocks. Remember Jadeja dropping a dolly when Cook was very early in his knock of 95. He got away with a few LBWs as well. He was due some good fortune though and he took advantage (to some degree). I'm not sure he'd actually ran into anything close to form though. He was still scratching around, and needed some good fortune to get him through the early stage of all those innings. I really hoped that those knocks would rebuild his confidence and he'd use the subsequent ODIs to really find his form. Of course that never happened; those limited over innings suggested the scores against India were something of a false dawn. He was still fragile. And still is. But, looking on the bright side. He's got a superb opportunity to get back into nick on this tour. Bell and Ballance did it in the first test. No reason Cook can't in the second. The bowling's friendly(ish). The wickets placid. Frankly I'd be suprised if he doesn't post a big ton in the next test. And when he does I'll be as happy as I was when Ballance got his. It goes without saying. Cook in form is something the Aussies will not welcome.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2015 18:36:41 GMT
Cook's last four innings last summer were 95 , 70 not out , 17 and 76 , so he was running into a bit of form prior to the winter one day pantomime ....I was hoping that the winter rest may have benefited him ....it may yet have done so , we need his runs if we are to win back the ashes . ' I remember those innings - he had a huge amount of luck in all those knocks. Remember Jadeja dropping a dolly when Cook was very early in his knock of 95. He got away with a few LBWs as well. He was due some good fortune though and he took advantage (to some degree). I'm not sure he'd actually ran into anything close to form though. He was still scratching around, and needed some good fortune to get him through the early stage of all those innings. I really hoped that those knocks would rebuild his confidence and he'd use the subsequent ODIs to really find his form. Of course that never happened; those limited over innings suggested the scores against India were something of a false dawn. He was still fragile. And still is. But, looking on the bright side. He's got a superb opportunity to get back into nick on this tour. Bell and Ballance did it in the first test. No reason Cook can't in the second. The bowling's friendly(ish). The wickets placid. Frankly I'd be suprised if he doesn't post a big ton in the next test. And when he does I'll be as happy as I was when Ballance got his. It goes without saying. Cook in form is something the Aussies will not welcome. I didn't say he was back to his best , but he did post a few scores and when you are out of form you will take any piece of luck going , unfortunately as you say it proved to be a little flattering .....hopefully you will be right and he will post that big ton and all will be right with him again .
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Post by ukcstokie on Apr 18, 2015 21:33:28 GMT
I remember those innings - he had a huge amount of luck in all those knocks. Remember Jadeja dropping a dolly when Cook was very early in his knock of 95. He got away with a few LBWs as well. He was due some good fortune though and he took advantage (to some degree). I'm not sure he'd actually ran into anything close to form though. He was still scratching around, and needed some good fortune to get him through the early stage of all those innings. I really hoped that those knocks would rebuild his confidence and he'd use the subsequent ODIs to really find his form. Of course that never happened; those limited over innings suggested the scores against India were something of a false dawn. He was still fragile. And still is. But, looking on the bright side. He's got a superb opportunity to get back into nick on this tour. Bell and Ballance did it in the first test. No reason Cook can't in the second. The bowling's friendly(ish). The wickets placid. Frankly I'd be suprised if he doesn't post a big ton in the next test. And when he does I'll be as happy as I was when Ballance got his. It goes without saying. Cook in form is something the Aussies will not welcome. I didn't say he was back to his best , but he did post a few scores and when you are out of form you will take any piece of luck going , unfortunately as you say it proved to be a little flattering .....hopefully you will be right and he will post that big ton and all will be right with him again . I'm not convinced it's going to take a bit of luck to sort Cooke out. When batsmen are having poor form it's usually turned by one grafting or lucky innings (quite often both). Then it clicks and the batsmen get their game back. Given what Cooke's been through I think we're past that now. I think his technique has developed flaws or he's just been found out (which I doubt after 25 centuries). I think he needs to go away and sort his technique out away from the pressure of Test cricket. I hope I'm wrong and he can get it back for the Ashes. We need him. We really do.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2015 21:42:54 GMT
I didn't say he was back to his best , but he did post a few scores and when you are out of form you will take any piece of luck going , unfortunately as you say it proved to be a little flattering .....hopefully you will be right and he will post that big ton and all will be right with him again . I'm not convinced it's going to take a bit of luck to sort Cooke out. When batsmen are having poor form it's usually turned by one grafting or lucky innings (quite often both). Then it clicks and the batsmen get their game back. Given what Cooke's been through I think we're past that now. I think his technique has developed flaws or he's just been found out (which I doubt after 25 centuries). I think he needs to go away and sort his technique out away from the pressure of Test cricket. I hope I'm wrong and he can get it back for the Ashes. We need him. We really do. He really does not appear to be playing any differently than at any other time in his career ......he went through a similar slump in form in 2010 prior to that years ashes tour ( not as prolonged as the current one I conceed ) ...he was getting out very much the same way outside off stump ....many people concluded that he should not be selected for that Ashes tour .....he was and scored over 700 runs in the series breaking countless records in the process.....my point is that things can quite easily turn around in a short time , but Cook's prolonged period of poor form is one of the games mysteries !
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Post by ukcstokie on Apr 18, 2015 21:56:22 GMT
I'm not convinced it's going to take a bit of luck to sort Cooke out. When batsmen are having poor form it's usually turned by one grafting or lucky innings (quite often both). Then it clicks and the batsmen get their game back. Given what Cooke's been through I think we're past that now. I think his technique has developed flaws or he's just been found out (which I doubt after 25 centuries). I think he needs to go away and sort his technique out away from the pressure of Test cricket. I hope I'm wrong and he can get it back for the Ashes. We need him. We really do. He really does not appear to be playing any differently than at any other time in his career ......he went through a similar slump in form in 2010 prior to that years ashes tour ( not as prolonged as the current one I conceed ) ...he was getting out very much the same way outside off stump ....many people concluded that he should not be selected for that Ashes tour .....he was and scored over 700 runs in the series breaking countless records in the process.....my point is that things can quite easily turn around in a short time , but Cook's prolonged period of poor form is one of the games mysteries ! I do hope you're right. Maybe it's just the psychological thing of getting a hundred. The confidence comes back and we have the old run scoring machine Cooke back. Hopefully it'll be this next test. We'd all be overjoyed (apart from Sydneypotter and a few more "Oh shit" emanating from down under).
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2015 22:07:19 GMT
He really does not appear to be playing any differently than at any other time in his career ......he went through a similar slump in form in 2010 prior to that years ashes tour ( not as prolonged as the current one I conceed ) ...he was getting out very much the same way outside off stump ....many people concluded that he should not be selected for that Ashes tour .....he was and scored over 700 runs in the series breaking countless records in the process.....my point is that things can quite easily turn around in a short time , but Cook's prolonged period of poor form is one of the games mysteries ! I do hope you're right. Maybe it's just the psychological thing of getting a hundred. The confidence comes back and we have the old run scoring machine Cooke back. Hopefully it'll be this next test. We'd all be overjoyed (apart from Sydneypotter and a few more "Oh shit" emanating from down under). Yes indeed ....alas poor Syd !
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Post by partickpotter on Apr 19, 2015 8:31:26 GMT
From the BBC; England's Best Bowler. Turns out to be Matthew Hoggard, followed by Anderson, Broad and Swann. Truman comes in as our ninth best bowler. You'd have thought when they saw the results they might have looked at their methodology to see if their was something that biased results to modern players. And guess what there is - and it's obvious. In other words batsmen are better today than previously because their averages are higher. What nonsense!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2015 8:58:29 GMT
From the BBC; England's Best Bowler. Turns out to be Matthew Hoggard, followed by Anderson, Broad and Swann. Truman comes in as our ninth best bowler. You'd have thought when they saw the results they might have looked at their methodology to see if their was something that biased results to modern players. And guess what there is - and it's obvious. In other words batsmen are better today than previously because their averages are higher. What nonsense! Absoloutely ! The modern batsman has never had it so good ......better pitches ( none of them are uncovered ) The modern bats that they use are out of this world in comparison to just a few years ago, no coincidence that the one day gave has evolved into a big hitting game during the same period , batsmen hit it distances unimaginable nowadays compared to yesteryear .
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Post by ukcstokie on Apr 19, 2015 23:23:23 GMT
From the BBC; England's Best Bowler. Turns out to be Matthew Hoggard, followed by Anderson, Broad and Swann. Truman comes in as our ninth best bowler. You'd have thought when they saw the results they might have looked at their methodology to see if their was something that biased results to modern players. And guess what there is - and it's obvious. In other words batsmen are better today than previously because their averages are higher. What nonsense! Absoloutely ! The modern batsman has never had it so good ......better pitches ( none of them are uncovered ) The modern bats that they use are out of this world in comparison to just a few years ago, no coincidence that the one day gave has evolved into a big hitting game during the same period , batsmen hit it distances unimaginable nowadays compared to yesteryear . ...that does remind me... Derek Underwood - it's often puzzled me why we've don't see spin bowlers bowling at medium pace nowadays (or even since Deadyly)? It seems it was a unique technique - but very effective.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2015 0:02:38 GMT
Absoloutely ! The modern batsman has never had it so good ......better pitches ( none of them are uncovered ) The modern bats that they use are out of this world in comparison to just a few years ago, no coincidence that the one day gave has evolved into a big hitting game during the same period , batsmen hit it distances unimaginable nowadays compared to yesteryear . ...that does remind me... Derek Underwood - it's often puzzled me why we've don't see spin bowlers bowling at medium pace nowadays (or even since Deadyly)? It seems it was a unique technique - but very effective. Derek Underwood .....what a marvelous bowler he was on a rain affected wicket ....unplayable , I'm not sure we should even consider him a spinner .....he used to cut the ball more so than spin it ......would he be so effective in today's game on covered wickets ....I'm not sure ? He was never as successful overseas .....I always found it strange that when Illingworth was captain , Underwood was quite often not selected instead he seemed to have a preference for Norman Gifford !.....Gifford was a good bowler but not the match winner that Underwood could and often was .
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Post by ukcstokie on Apr 21, 2015 14:41:14 GMT
England win the toss and bowl.
Ali in for Treadwell. Predictable and conservative.
Why did they take Rashid out there?
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Post by estrangedsonoffaye on Apr 21, 2015 14:55:17 GMT
Really feel for Tredwell and Rashid to be honest. Ali has got to improve his batting for me, other than his one century against Sri Lanka has shown far too much naivety with the bat in tests particularly against the short ball.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2015 15:06:57 GMT
England win the toss and bowl. Ali in for Treadwell. Predictable and conservative. Why did they take Rashid out there? Typical from our selectors. Rashid for Jordan would have been the right choice, everybody knows it. Three seamers and 3 spin bowlers on West Indian pitches is more than enough. Any confidence the lad had from his excellent season with Yorkshire will have disappeared, good work fellas!
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Post by partickpotter on Apr 21, 2015 15:08:30 GMT
England win the toss and bowl. Ali in for Treadwell. Predictable and conservative. Why did they take Rashid out there? Ditto Lythe! But it's the absence of Rashid that is really annoying. The last test told us we need something "extra" in our bowling attack on these slow, flat pitches. That extra was Rashid. As I said earlier the priority for selection is not winning this series but preparation for the Ashes. Which I think is a shame. But if they want Stokes and Jordan against the Aussies, both need bowling practice and development to raise their games from a second change seamer to a first change one. Neither are that at the moment.
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Post by partickpotter on Apr 21, 2015 15:51:50 GMT
We're off.
We'll sort of! Anderson opening up with an over of sub 80 mph balls. Got an edge - but didn't carry to slip.
Strange. Why so slow?
Edit - Answer with the first ball of his second over; he was softening him up. What a delivery. A huge quick late in swinger. Poor Braithwaite. That was unplayable.
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Post by LGH87 on Apr 21, 2015 15:53:46 GMT
Great ball there from Anderson! couple more now please.
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Post by LGH87 on Apr 21, 2015 16:03:05 GMT
Do we know yet when the next tour of the Windies will be? If I was going to travel anywhere in the world to watch England then a trip around the West Indies is definitely the way I'd want to do it. Edit: I've just googled it. 2017 February-March - England in West Indies (3 ODIs) 2019 February-March - England in West Indies (3 Tests, 5 ODIs, 1 T20) Looks like that's my holiday in 2019 sorted
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Post by estrangedsonoffaye on Apr 21, 2015 17:18:18 GMT
36-2 at lunch.
We got very lucky with the second wicket, Smith hit the ground and was unsure whether he nicked it through to Buttler, decided to walk off thankfully as replays showed he missed it comfortably.
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Post by estrangedsonoffaye on Apr 21, 2015 18:33:56 GMT
West Indies patience wears thin and Bravo chases one off Broad and nicks straight to Cook.
65-3
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Post by estrangedsonoffaye on Apr 21, 2015 18:50:13 GMT
The Crab's gone! Stokes second ball up!
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Post by partickpotter on Apr 21, 2015 18:51:25 GMT
4 Down. Chanderpaul gone to ... Stokes.
Well done fella.
One each for all four quicks. Good day so far.
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Post by estrangedsonoffaye on Apr 21, 2015 20:01:18 GMT
Cook shells a regulation Samuels nick off Jordan.
109-4
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Post by partickpotter on Apr 21, 2015 20:34:37 GMT
Caught a beaut of a Stoke's no ball in the last test. Sometimes you just get the Jonah sign on you!
Edit; Then again - bit of Midas Touch on that review!
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Post by estrangedsonoffaye on Apr 21, 2015 20:36:20 GMT
Gone!
Great review lads!
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