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Post by Deleted on May 1, 2015 9:10:58 GMT
But do we treat every Test Match as a Test Match and play what we think is our strongest side ? .....yes we should ....selection should only be made on merit , I may be old fashioned on this , but you always pick your best team , regardless of age or whatever else ....that's not to say I'm not sympathetic to people like Lyth , if he's good enough his time will come before long ....Trott has been a top class batsman for England ....his record backs it up , we should not be too quick to consign players like him to the scrap heap just for the sake of change .....class as they say is permanent . Consistency in selection is a good thing - but it can be overdone. England, still haunted by the rotation selection policy of the 90s and gripped by a deep conservatism, overplay this to the detriment of everyone. Interesting to hear Bell reflect on getting dropped after scoring a ton in the first test in this series. Joe Root has spoken similarly about how his getting dropped help him improve his game and contributed to how he is playing today. Being dropped doesn't necessarily consign you to the scrap heap. But it does mean you have to work at getting back in. The question is - at what point does poor form change from something you accept as par for the course to becoming a major concern and a reason to drop someone. I reckon a top line batsman should score at least one ton in a five match series or every 10 innings. As a minimum. If you can't do that your place is at risk. Go another 10 innings and your time has run out IMO. Accepting a hard rule can't be applied, and a hundred isn't the best or only indication of a batsman's contribution; this century measure yard stick is flawed. It does though have some merit. Again Root talking recently of scoring Daddy hundreds shows they are vitally important. When would you get worried? 20 innings, 30? 50? My red line is 20 +/-. Trott is currently on 22 innings since his last century. He has scored just 3 in 66 knocks. As mentioned he isn't alone among our senior batsmen. Bell before this series was similar. Cook still is! It's our young guns who have been scoring runs for the past couple of years. Our senior players haven't contributed enough for too long. Trott is in the last chance saloon. He must score well in this test. Cook situation is similar but not quite so desperate although it's well over 20 innings since he got to three figures. If he doesn't score a hundred in this game I'd take the captaincy of him and tell him to focus exclusively on his batting for New Zealand. I don't think you can adopt those kind of time frames of a a certain number of innings as to whether a player is worth his place in the side or not .....all players are not the same and the circumstances are sometimes different regarding how long you are prepared to persevere with some one .Far too much emphasis is placed upon three figures being the be all and end all , Cook has been his own worst enemy to a certain extent by having such a superlative record , it has been expected of him as being the norm , he has been a " run machine " and now his incredibly high standards have dipped to a point where his place is being talked about .....it would be marvelous for him to get a ton in this match , it's certainly a monkey that he needs to get off his back , he comes over as a cool customer but it must be playing on his mind a little bit , I'm sure if it happens we will begin to see the old Cook re-surface , we need him back to his best . As for Trott I would love to see him succeed and hope that he does , but I fear it may not be as an opening batsman , it's difficult to see where he could get into the side at the moment in the middle order where he has had all his success and is clearly far more suited to his technique and temperament ,I agree that this could be his last opportunity in this Test , he needs to score runs and above all score them convincingly......good luck to them both and the team today .
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Post by partickpotter on May 1, 2015 10:13:36 GMT
Consistency in selection is a good thing - but it can be overdone. England, still haunted by the rotation selection policy of the 90s and gripped by a deep conservatism, overplay this to the detriment of everyone. Interesting to hear Bell reflect on getting dropped after scoring a ton in the first test in this series. Joe Root has spoken similarly about how his getting dropped help him improve his game and contributed to how he is playing today. Being dropped doesn't necessarily consign you to the scrap heap. But it does mean you have to work at getting back in. The question is - at what point does poor form change from something you accept as par for the course to becoming a major concern and a reason to drop someone. I reckon a top line batsman should score at least one ton in a five match series or every 10 innings. As a minimum. If you can't do that your place is at risk. Go another 10 innings and your time has run out IMO. Accepting a hard rule can't be applied, and a hundred isn't the best or only indication of a batsman's contribution; this century measure yard stick is flawed. It does though have some merit. Again Root talking recently of scoring Daddy hundreds shows they are vitally important. When would you get worried? 20 innings, 30? 50? My red line is 20 +/-. Trott is currently on 22 innings since his last century. He has scored just 3 in 66 knocks. As mentioned he isn't alone among our senior batsmen. Bell before this series was similar. Cook still is! It's our young guns who have been scoring runs for the past couple of years. Our senior players haven't contributed enough for too long. Trott is in the last chance saloon. He must score well in this test. Cook situation is similar but not quite so desperate although it's well over 20 innings since he got to three figures. If he doesn't score a hundred in this game I'd take the captaincy of him and tell him to focus exclusively on his batting for New Zealand. I don't think you can adopt those kind of time frames of a a certain number of innings as to whether a player is worth his place in the side or not .....all players are not the same and the circumstances are sometimes different regarding how long you are prepared to persevere with some one .Far too much emphasis is placed upon three figures being the be all and end all , Cook has been his own worst enemy to a certain extent by having such a superlative record , it has been expected of him as being the norm , he has been a " run machine " and now his incredibly high standards have dipped to a point where his place is being talked about .....it would be marvelous for him to get a ton in this match , it's certainly a monkey that he needs to get off his back , he comes over as a cool customer but it must be playing on his mind a little bit , I'm sure if it happens we will begin to see the old Cook re-surface , we need him back to his best . As for Trott I would love to see him succeed and hope that he does , but I fear it may not be as an opening batsman , it's difficult to see where he could get into the side at the moment in the middle order where he has had all his success and is clearly far more suited to his technique and temperament ,I agree that this could be his last opportunity in this Test , he needs to score runs and above all score them convincingly......good luck to them both and the team today . Like I said - it's a crude measure. But not without some merit. Sides that win games have batsmen that score hundreds. What's it Boycott says - batsmen set up matches by scoring runs, bowlers win them by taking wickets. I read that the Barbados wicket has some pace and bounce so the bowlers from both sides will get something to work on. Be a good test for Trott if that is the case. Be listening to this on my drive south later today. Makes the time pure fly!
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Post by Staffsoatcake on May 1, 2015 14:16:44 GMT
Because Trott can't stay out in the centre long enough to give a kettle time to boil, Ballance has really been an opening batsman in this series.
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Post by Deleted on May 1, 2015 14:36:37 GMT
I don't think you can adopt those kind of time frames of a a certain number of innings as to whether a player is worth his place in the side or not .....all players are not the same and the circumstances are sometimes different regarding how long you are prepared to persevere with some one .Far too much emphasis is placed upon three figures being the be all and end all , Cook has been his own worst enemy to a certain extent by having such a superlative record , it has been expected of him as being the norm , he has been a " run machine " and now his incredibly high standards have dipped to a point where his place is being talked about .....it would be marvelous for him to get a ton in this match , it's certainly a monkey that he needs to get off his back , he comes over as a cool customer but it must be playing on his mind a little bit , I'm sure if it happens we will begin to see the old Cook re-surface , we need him back to his best . As for Trott I would love to see him succeed and hope that he does , but I fear it may not be as an opening batsman , it's difficult to see where he could get into the side at the moment in the middle order where he has had all his success and is clearly far more suited to his technique and temperament ,I agree that this could be his last opportunity in this Test , he needs to score runs and above all score them convincingly......good luck to them both and the team today . Like I said - it's a crude measure. But not without some merit. Sides that win games have batsmen that score hundreds. What's it Boycott says - batsmen set up matches by scoring runs, bowlers win them by taking wickets. I read that the Barbados wicket has some pace and bounce so the bowlers from both sides will get something to work on. Be a good test for Trott if that is the case. Be listening to this on my drive south later today. Makes the time pure fly! Trott undone by a short one , in no sort of position to play a bouncer by getting himself on the front foot It's sad to see a good player struggling like this.....I think we have to concede that the opening experiment has been a failure , barring runs for him in the second innings ....even then there is doubts about Trott's technique against the new ball, particularly when it's short .
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Post by ukcstokie on May 1, 2015 14:57:24 GMT
Like I said - it's a crude measure. But not without some merit. Sides that win games have batsmen that score hundreds. What's it Boycott says - batsmen set up matches by scoring runs, bowlers win them by taking wickets. I read that the Barbados wicket has some pace and bounce so the bowlers from both sides will get something to work on. Be a good test for Trott if that is the case. Be listening to this on my drive south later today. Makes the time pure fly! Trott undone by a short one , in no sort of position to play a bouncer by getting himself on the front foot It's sad to see a good player struggling like this.....I think we have to concede that the opening experiment has been a failure , barring runs for him in the second innings ....even then there is doubts about Trott's technique against the new ball, particularly when it's short . For a man who left his last Test tour because of pressure - this is not a good place to be. One innings to save his test place. Good luck Trotty.
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Post by Deleted on May 1, 2015 15:36:13 GMT
Trott undone by a short one , in no sort of position to play a bouncer by getting himself on the front foot It's sad to see a good player struggling like this.....I think we have to concede that the opening experiment has been a failure , barring runs for him in the second innings ....even then there is doubts about Trott's technique against the new ball, particularly when it's short . For a man who left his last Test tour because of pressure - this is not a good place to be. One innings to save his test place. Good luck Trotty. I like Trott and would love to see him return to form....I can't see it being at the top of the order though unfortunately
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Post by ukcstokie on May 1, 2015 16:06:15 GMT
For a man who left his last Test tour because of pressure - this is not a good place to be. One innings to save his test place. Good luck Trotty. I like Trott and would love to see him return to form....I can't see it being at the top of the order though unfortunately Me too. He could be a real world class batsman (as he was turning into before his dip in form and other problems). He looks like a fish out of water opening though - is that because he's uncomfortable there or just down to form?
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Post by Deleted on May 1, 2015 16:30:59 GMT
I like Trott and would love to see him return to form....I can't see it being at the top of the order though unfortunately Me too. He could be a real world class batsman (as he was turning into before his dip in form and other problems). He looks like a fish out of water opening though - is that because he's uncomfortable there or just down to form? Well he will obviously be uncomfortable because of his lack of form ......but he has serious technique issues from what I've seen , his feet are all over the place , he's falling over trying to play everything through the onside , you can see that he is being opened up in doing so and consequently unable to play straight , he's also committing himself to the front foot , not the best way to play the new ball , particularly if it's dropped short , when you are on the front foot like that there is nowhere to go .....which is exactly how he was out today.
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Post by ukcstokie on May 1, 2015 17:07:41 GMT
Me too. He could be a real world class batsman (as he was turning into before his dip in form and other problems). He looks like a fish out of water opening though - is that because he's uncomfortable there or just down to form? Well he will obviously be uncomfortable because of his lack of form ......but he has serious technique issues from what I've seen , his feet are all over the place , he's falling over trying to play everything through the onside , you can see that he is being opened up in doing so and consequently unable to play straight , he's also committing himself to the front foot , not the best way to play the new ball , particularly if it's dropped short , when you are on the front foot like that there is nowhere to go .....which is exactly how he was out today. Sometimes it all goes together - confidence - form - technique. Given the runs he bagged in SA with the Lions he shouldn't be in too bad a form? Is it going to be Cook's day? Square cuts and gets an inside edge for 4. That would splattered his stumps on previous days.
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Post by Deleted on May 1, 2015 17:12:16 GMT
Well he will obviously be uncomfortable because of his lack of form ......but he has serious technique issues from what I've seen , his feet are all over the place , he's falling over trying to play everything through the onside , you can see that he is being opened up in doing so and consequently unable to play straight , he's also committing himself to the front foot , not the best way to play the new ball , particularly if it's dropped short , when you are on the front foot like that there is nowhere to go .....which is exactly how he was out today. Sometimes it all goes together - confidence - form - technique. Given the runs he bagged in SA with the Lions he shouldn't be in too bad a form? Is it going to be Cook's day? Square cuts and gets an inside edge for 4. That would splattered his stumps on previous days. That's the strange thing , he doesn't look like he's got a recent double hundred does he ? Over the last couple of games Cook is looking much more like his old self , I hope that doesn't put the mockers on him ! .....Pity about Root going .
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Post by ukcstokie on May 1, 2015 17:25:00 GMT
Sometimes it all goes together - confidence - form - technique. Given the runs he bagged in SA with the Lions he shouldn't be in too bad a form? Is it going to be Cook's day? Square cuts and gets an inside edge for 4. That would splattered his stumps on previous days. That's the strange thing , he doesn't look like he's got a recent double hundred does he ? Over the last couple of games Cook is looking much more like his old self , I hope that doesn't put the mockers on him ! .....Pity about Root going . Yes. Cook is looking good. Bit of a worry that our recent dependables have both gone cheaply (Root and Balance).
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Post by Deleted on May 1, 2015 17:46:50 GMT
That's the strange thing , he doesn't look like he's got a recent double hundred does he ? Over the last couple of games Cook is looking much more like his old self , I hope that doesn't put the mockers on him ! .....Pity about Root going . Yes. Cook is looking good. Bit of a worry that our recent dependables have both gone cheaply (Root and Balance). Yes it was bound to happen at some point though ....both have been scoring heavily , it's up to the Captain and the others this time to post a big score .
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Post by partickpotter on May 1, 2015 18:06:29 GMT
Yes. Cook is looking good. Bit of a worry that our recent dependables have both gone cheaply (Root and Balance). Yes it was bound to happen at some point though ....both have been scoring heavily , it's up to the Captain and the others this time to post a big score . Absolutely - need all our top order to contribute significantly at some point. Good news, touch wood, is Cook is looking good. Also, now is an opportunity for Ali. Go got it boys. Bat the day out. Shame about Trott earlier. It's an experiment that has failed. A decent score in the next innings won't be enough to save him. But fair enough - get back into county cricket, score well and wait for an opportunity. Same rules - as KP might say!
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Post by partickpotter on May 1, 2015 19:04:50 GMT
A wee tea time aside. Bangladesh v Pakistan. Bangladesh 273 - 0 in their second innings at the end of day 4 after Pakistan scored 628 replying to 332.
A day for records tomorrow. Worth keeping an eye on.
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Post by partickpotter on May 1, 2015 19:49:12 GMT
Well that was bloody stupid Alistair!
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Post by Deleted on May 1, 2015 21:20:05 GMT
And so was that last shot .....after so much graft and good work , nevertheless well played the Captain , a deserved century
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Post by Deleted on May 1, 2015 21:27:37 GMT
Very pleased for Cook, finally got the monkey off his back. Awful day from England mind, too many rash shots although Holder and Gabriel bowled pretty well. Just hope Buttler and the tail can cobble another 60-80 runs together to at least give us something to bowl at.....
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Post by Deleted on May 1, 2015 21:27:57 GMT
DOUBLE POST
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Post by salopstick on May 1, 2015 21:27:59 GMT
An inform cook is essential if we are going to beat Australia. I like this test team and I think they are going to surprise a lot of people this summer
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Post by Deleted on May 1, 2015 21:45:53 GMT
An inform cook is essential if we are going to beat Australia. I like this test team and I think they are going to surprise a lot of people this summer Let's hope that proves to be the case .
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Post by Deleted on May 1, 2015 21:53:30 GMT
Yes it was bound to happen at some point though ....both have been scoring heavily , it's up to the Captain and the others this time to post a big score . Absolutely - need all our top order to contribute significantly at some point. Good news, touch wood, is Cook is looking good. Also, now is an opportunity for Ali. Go got it boys. Bat the day out. Shame about Trott earlier. It's an experiment that has failed. A decent score in the next innings won't be enough to save him. But fair enough - get back into county cricket, score well and wait for an opportunity. Same rules - as KP might say! You are right about Trott , but I think this was his only chance of getting his place back .....I don't see him getting back into a settled middle order now, I was keen for him to succeed , but it has to be admitted aside from his fifty in the last Test , he has looked a shadow of the good player that he was , sadly his days of Test Cricket seem to be behind him now .
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Post by estrangedsonoffaye on May 1, 2015 21:56:54 GMT
Not seen any of the play today due to work commitments, looks like we've played a bit loosely and then Cook has had a lapse in concentration at just the wrong moment, still, well played Skipper!
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Post by partickpotter on May 2, 2015 4:21:34 GMT
Not seen any of the play today due to work commitments, looks like we've played a bit loosely and then Cook has had a lapse in concentration at just the wrong moment, still, well played Skipper! Definitely the Windies day. And a poor one from England with the bat. I reckon six of the seven wickets we lost were primarily down to poor cricket from England. Aside from Balance, a combination of bad technique (Trott), poor judgement (Cook in running out Ali) and sloppy shots (the rest) cost us today. Great to see Cook get his ton. And maybe that will be the lasting memory of this game. Very disappointed that he got out at the end. Let's hope for some fireworks tomorrow from Butler and Jordan. Need to get the score well past 300 which looks a tall order now. But not impossible.
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Post by Deleted on May 2, 2015 9:42:58 GMT
Not seen any of the play today due to work commitments, looks like we've played a bit loosely and then Cook has had a lapse in concentration at just the wrong moment, still, well played Skipper! Definitely the Windies day. And a poor one from England with the bat. I reckon six of the seven wickets we lost were primarily down to poor cricket from England. Aside from Balance, a combination of bad technique (Trott), poor judgement (Cook in running out Ali) and sloppy shots (the rest) cost us today. Great to see Cook get his ton. And maybe that will be the lasting memory of this game. Very disappointed that he got out at the end. Let's hope for some fireworks tomorrow from Butler and Jordan. Need to get the score well past 300 which looks a tall order now. But not impossible. I think 300 ish would be a useful score on that pitch , it's clearly not playing as well as people thought , extremely slow hence the low scoring rate yesterday , considerable signs that it may spin significantly as the game progresses albeit slowly.....we may wish that we had taken a gamble in leaving a seamer out ( Jordan for me ) and playing Rashid , although I suppose that was unlikely ever to happen .
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Post by ukcstokie on May 2, 2015 15:21:44 GMT
I think the West Indies have lost Hope now.
I'll get my coat.
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Post by partickpotter on May 2, 2015 16:23:02 GMT
Remarkable stat on TMS; if Broad takes a wicket in his first three overs in an innings, his average is 19, if he doesn't it's 37.
Wow!
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Post by estrangedsonoffaye on May 2, 2015 16:44:18 GMT
Remarkable stat on TMS; if Broad takes a wicket in his first three overs in an innings, his average is 19, if he doesn't it's 37. Wow! That's borderline absurd! Definition of a confidence player.
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Post by estrangedsonoffaye on May 2, 2015 16:44:51 GMT
4 down!
Spin there for Moeen and a regulation edge straight to first slip.
37-4
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Post by estrangedsonoffaye on May 2, 2015 16:49:11 GMT
Regarding strange stats, I found myself watching some highlights of the 2010-2011 Ashes the other day, had a quick glance at quick info and found that the 4th and 5th tests in which we retained and then won the series respectively were the 1986th and 1987th test matches in history.
We had last won the Ashes down under in 1986-87, spooky!
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Post by partickpotter on May 2, 2015 16:58:15 GMT
Regarding strange stats, I found myself watching some highlights of the 2010-2011 Ashes the other day, had a quick glance at quick info and found that the 4th and 5th tests in which we retained and then won the series respectively were the 1986th and 1987th test matches in history. We had last won the Ashes down under in 1986-87, spooky!
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