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Post by mywaydesolzan on Feb 6, 2015 18:00:05 GMT
That's the point though isn't it, they weren't strong enough=their state of mind. When you lose that state of mind, then all bets are off. Anyhow, I have listened to your views and respect your replies, but I am going to have to leave it there. None of them are clinically depressed. None of them would blame depression for the choices they made. Clarke Carlisle, in my opinion, is hiding behind depression as an excuse for his shameful behaviour, and he does nothing to enhance the cause of those who genuinely and tragically suffer chronic mental illnesses. In my opinion of course, which is what I expressed at the start. My view isn't a sweeping generalisation. It is a view of Clarke Carlisle's situation and I don't have sympathy for his current plight. My sympathy is reserved for his wife, his child/children and for the driver of the vehicle that hit him who will be traumatised for the rest of his life. Bloody hell I've got to go. What shameful behaviour, which wouldn't be committed by someone suffering mental health issues.
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Post by davejohnno1 on Feb 6, 2015 18:09:02 GMT
None of them are clinically depressed. None of them would blame depression for the choices they made. Clarke Carlisle, in my opinion, is hiding behind depression as an excuse for his shameful behaviour, and he does nothing to enhance the cause of those who genuinely and tragically suffer chronic mental illnesses. In my opinion of course, which is what I expressed at the start. My view isn't a sweeping generalisation. It is a view of Clarke Carlisle's situation and I don't have sympathy for his current plight. My sympathy is reserved for his wife, his child/children and for the driver of the vehicle that hit him who will be traumatised for the rest of his life. Bloody hell I've got to go. What shameful behaviour, which wouldn't be committed by someone suffering mental health issues. Which is exactly what Clarke Carlisle thinks. He is exonerating, or attempting to exonerate his own behaviour, by hiding behind the banner of depression. He says he became depressed, mentally ill (call it what you like) when his football career was over as he struggled to come to terms with not being a footballer any longer. During his footballing career, he was an alcoholic and a convicted drink driver. He also lost a small fortune gambling and robbed off his pals...all whilst being a footballer which apparently he had no problem with. He was all of those things because he was mentally ill right? Is that what you are saying?
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Post by mywaydesolzan on Feb 6, 2015 18:26:12 GMT
Bloody hell I've got to go. What shameful behaviour, which wouldn't be committed by someone suffering mental health issues. Which is exactly what Clarke Carlisle thinks. He is exonerating, or attempting to exonerate his own behaviour, by hiding behind the banner of depression. He says he became depressed, mentally ill (call it what you like) when his football career was over as he struggled to come to terms with not being a footballer any longer. During his footballing career, he was an alcoholic and a convicted drink driver. He also lost a small fortune gambling and robbed off his pals...all whilst being a footballer which apparently he had no problem with. He was all of those things because he was mentally ill right? Is that what you are saying? It is all related yes one thing leads to another. To have a pop that he is an alcoholic and drink driver. Well he wouldn't be one without the other. and yes I believe the cause is depression.
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Post by davejohnno1 on Feb 6, 2015 18:37:56 GMT
Which is exactly what Clarke Carlisle thinks. He is exonerating, or attempting to exonerate his own behaviour, by hiding behind the banner of depression. He says he became depressed, mentally ill (call it what you like) when his football career was over as he struggled to come to terms with not being a footballer any longer. During his footballing career, he was an alcoholic and a convicted drink driver. He also lost a small fortune gambling and robbed off his pals...all whilst being a footballer which apparently he had no problem with. He was all of those things because he was mentally ill right? Is that what you are saying? It is all related yes one thing leads to another. To have a pop that he is an alcoholic and drink driver. Well he wouldn't be one without the other. and yes I believe the cause is depression. Not all alcoholic's get into a car and drive. Not all drink driving offenders are alcoholics.
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Post by mywaydesolzan on Feb 6, 2015 18:42:31 GMT
It is all related yes one thing leads to another. To have a pop that he is an alcoholic and drink driver. Well he wouldn't be one without the other. and yes I believe the cause is depression. Not all alcoholic's get into a car and drive. Not all drink driving offenders are alcoholics. But they don't choose mate. That is the point.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2015 18:54:38 GMT
I can see both sides here. I don't think anyone on this thread is belittling any form of mental issue or clinical depression, someone I knew well at work had a breakdown and has struggled for years to overcome his demons. It's heartbreaking to watch a guy who was so full of life struggle on a daily basis for reasons he can't rationalise.
But in fairness to davejohnno he's merely suggesting that in Carlisle's case it COULD (and I only say could as I don't know the full facts) be that the depression is a by-product of his previous weak or selfish behaviour (gambling, drink driving, alchoholism) where he has looked back on his actions and become depressed because of it. However if he was struck down with depression first and his reckless behaviour was a by-product of that I can see how someone would say there is a clear distinction between the two.
Chicken and egg situation I guess, ultimately only he and possibly the professionals who have been helping him know which came first, but I can see how the lines are slightly blurred in THIS PARTICULAR CASE.
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Post by davejohnno1 on Feb 6, 2015 19:00:16 GMT
Not all alcoholic's get into a car and drive. Not all drink driving offenders are alcoholics. But they don't choose mate. That is the point. I simply don't agree. I may be misunderstanding you, but from your angle, no-one is culpable for the bad decisions they make because it can all be attributed to some kind of mental imbalance. Diminished responsibility is effectively your defence for everything which is ironic because that is usually the legal defence used when trying to defend the indefensible.
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Post by skip on Feb 6, 2015 20:05:52 GMT
Not everyone by a long chalk that does 'bad things' is depressed or mentally ill but I do believe that huge amounts of 'bad things' are perpetrated by people who cannot cope with their inner thoughts driven by circumstance.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Feb 6, 2015 20:13:44 GMT
Why isn't it? Because it's an Internet message board, primarily for Stoke City related stuff. If I want to learn about quantum physics, I wouldn't go to the local butchers. It's like a pub, you discuss any old bollocks in the pub.
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Post by borat on Feb 6, 2015 20:14:37 GMT
As a sufferer of depression I can relate to what he did, I've wanted do worse in my darkest hour, wouldn't wish it on anybody.
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Post by borat on Feb 6, 2015 20:40:56 GMT
I have no sympathy for Clarke Carlisle whatsoever. He's a weak coward whether by illness or otherwise. I have great sympathy for his wife, child/children who clearly aren't enough to fill his life with joy and the poor driver who was confronted by his suicide bid. I hope you spend the rest of your days being depressed and run in front of a train.
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Post by fullmetaljacket on Feb 6, 2015 20:49:20 GMT
This board needs an ignore feature. Some of the crass, useless replies just aren't worth reading.
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Post by pottersrule on Feb 6, 2015 21:04:36 GMT
As someone who is currently suffering with depression (those who know me may remember that I ran away from home (I'm 53) a year ago - and had suicidal thoughts(running into traffic)(jumping of Blackpool pier)(Slashing wrists)) I find some of these comments staggering. Claims of understanding of the illness are so obviously untrue and perhaps show how little we have come forward on the subject. I have been so offended by the posts of a few members that it was a struggle to read through them all, however I do not agree with those asking for the thread to be binned. This whole subject should be openly discussed and read by as many people as possible. I'm sure most will quickly realise which posters are talking rubbish. As an answer to CobhamStokey - There are many support groups across the country - I attend one at the Britannia Stadium every week (supported by Lou Macari(who obviously does fully understand) Brave post Graig,some of the people posting on here are simply ignorant.As you say the subject is better discussed rather than ignored even if it helps just one person to understand,it's a start.
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Post by Stafford-Stokie on Feb 6, 2015 21:11:57 GMT
As someone who is currently suffering with depression (those who know me may remember that I ran away from home (I'm 53) a year ago - and had suicidal thoughts(running into traffic)(jumping of Blackpool pier)(Slashing wrists)) I find some of these comments staggering. Claims of understanding of the illness are so obviously untrue and perhaps show how little we have come forward on the subject. I have been so offended by the posts of a few members that it was a struggle to read through them all, however I do not agree with those asking for the thread to be binned. This whole subject should be openly discussed and read by as many people as possible. I'm sure most will quickly realise which posters are talking rubbish. As an answer to CobhamStokey - There are many support groups across the country - I attend one at the Britannia Stadium every week (supported by Lou Macari(who obviously does fully understand) Respect to you sir. I am no fan of Carlisle but have seen first hand what this illness can do to people who you think are as hard as nails. I only hope I or my loved ones never get cursed with the condition.
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Post by redsaturday on Feb 6, 2015 21:16:54 GMT
Thing with depression and anxiety is you can't think straight, and you know that you can't, no matter how hard you try. This leads to frustration and escalates tlit so much that eventually you become overwhelmed with despair. A feeling that your head is going to explode and you just can't take it any longer.
If you've never experienced this, hope that you never do it's an incredibly lonely place to be.
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Post by davejohnno1 on Feb 6, 2015 21:34:31 GMT
I have no sympathy for Clarke Carlisle whatsoever. He's a weak coward whether by illness or otherwise. I have great sympathy for his wife, child/children who clearly aren't enough to fill his life with joy and the poor driver who was confronted by his suicide bid. I hope you spend the rest of your days being depressed and run in front of a train. :-) as if that's going to happen. Can you not see how you've just totally contradicted yourself?
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Post by davejohnno1 on Feb 6, 2015 21:41:28 GMT
I have no sympathy for Clarke Carlisle whatsoever. He's a weak coward whether by illness or otherwise. I have great sympathy for his wife, child/children who clearly aren't enough to fill his life with joy and the poor driver who was confronted by his suicide bid. I hope you spend the rest of your days being depressed and run in front of a train. I thought you wouldn't wish it on anyone???
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Post by swampySCFC on Feb 6, 2015 22:18:48 GMT
In fairness where did it all go wrong for Carlisle. Mental illness or not he had a great career but selfish bastard to do that. We all know who Carlisle is but who is the driver????
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Post by borat on Feb 6, 2015 22:52:14 GMT
I hope you spend the rest of your days being depressed and run in front of a train. I thought you wouldn't wish it on anyone??? Except you, why do you think you had 15 dislikes? huh
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Post by davejohnno1 on Feb 6, 2015 23:00:21 GMT
I thought you wouldn't wish it on anyone??? Except you, why do you think you had 15 dislikes? huh Whoopy doo. 15 dislikes? What a bad person I am. I didn't even know about them so I couldn't think about them until now. Clearly though, you lied in your earlier post. Have you read the whole thread or responded only to that one post?
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Post by prettything on Feb 7, 2015 0:36:25 GMT
Dave, I know you're a good bloke, I can see that from the years I've been on this board.
I can also understand where you are coming from.
What you haven't taken into consideration, is empathy for why those, in a different mindset from you, do the things they do. It doesn't have to be depression. It could be murder, stealing, drug taking , giving all your money to charity, anything.
To evolve and go forward as a society, we need to understand why people do the things they do
When a person feels they are worthless, empty inside, lost, hopeless, they think about anybody else. You are on your own. Nobody will miss you, you're a fart in history, nobody cares.
The misunderstanding, by many, to be fair, is that this is selfish. How couldn't this person consider anybody else? Do they not realise they were worth something, missed, mourned?
It's not that that they are selfish. It's that they they are so desperate, so confused, ashamed, and lost. There simply isn't any other way out
That's why we need to help ,rather than judge, this terrible condition.
It's hard to put oneself in somebody else's shoes, buts it's vital to do so, if we are to able to deal with this problem, and move forward.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2015 0:45:28 GMT
I have no sympathy for Clarke Carlisle whatsoever. He's a weak coward whether by illness or otherwise. I have great sympathy for his wife, child/children who clearly aren't enough to fill his life with joy and the poor driver who was confronted by his suicide bid. I hope you spend the rest of your days being depressed and run in front of a train. An expat friend of mine here in Thailand is a train driver, he has had 2 suicides that jumped in front of him and it has affected him massively, he gets depression himself, has massive, and I mean massive mood swings, and frankly finds it difficult relating to people and getting along, pretty much everyone avoids him, especially on the golf course where he is just a freeking nightmare.
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Post by davejohnno1 on Feb 7, 2015 11:59:50 GMT
Dave, I know you're a good bloke, I can see that from the years I've been on this board. I can also understand where you are coming from. What you haven't taken into consideration, is empathy for why those, in a different mindset from you, do the things they do. It doesn't have to be depression. It could be murder, stealing, drug taking , giving all your money to charity, anything. To evolve and go forward as a society, we need to understand why people do the things they do When a person feels they are worthless, empty inside, lost, hopeless, they think about anybody else. You are on your own. Nobody will miss you, you're a fart in history, nobody cares. The misunderstanding, by many, to be fair, is that this is selfish. How couldn't this person consider anybody else? Do they not realise they were worth something, missed, mourned? It's not that that they are selfish. It's that they they are so desperate, so confused, ashamed, and lost. There simply isn't any other way out That's why we need to help ,rather than judge, this terrible condition. It's hard to put oneself in somebody else's shoes, buts it's vital to do so, if we are to able to deal with this problem, and move forward. I have taken those things into consideration and it is my belief that Clarke Carlisle isn't deserving of sympathy. He is, in my opinion, impacting adversely on those who really struggle with this horrible type of illness. To me, Clarke Carlisle seems to be using depression as an excuse to his behaviour and, to me, that isn't right, hence I have no sympathy for him specifically. Edit - reference your comment on murder...let me use Myra Hindley and Ian moores as an example. Both are mentally ill. Should that excuse what they did? Should we seek to understand them, show compassion to them, forgive them and have sympathy for them? They didn't make rational decisions and used mental illness as part of their defence strategy. Is their mental illness affecting their ability to hide the whereabouts of those children whose parents are desperate to fund them and bury them?
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Post by RAF on Feb 7, 2015 12:05:56 GMT
Has Clarke Carlisle actually been diagnosed by a mental health expert as being clinically depressed or has he just said he's depressed? I'd be interested to know.
H
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Post by prettything on Feb 7, 2015 13:07:06 GMT
Yes, we should undoubtedly try to understand them. It's only by this understanding can we treat or spot this behaviour before its carried out. This applies to any kind of unstable/unhealthy behaviour patterns. But don't confuse this with excusing such behaviour.
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Post by davejohnno1 on Feb 7, 2015 14:00:00 GMT
Yes, we should undoubtedly try to understand them. It's only by this understanding can we treat or spot this behaviour before its carried out. This applies to any kind of unstable/unhealthy behaviour patterns. But don't confuse this with excusing such behaviour. Trying to understand can be done without having sympathy for the individual. I have no sympathy for Clarke Carlisle which is what seems to have offended certain people on this thread.
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Post by prettything on Feb 7, 2015 14:26:24 GMT
Without speaking for everyone, it's probably people's astonishment over how somebody couldn't have sympathy for Carlisles predicament .
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Moosehead
Youth Player
Posts: 307
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Post by Moosehead on Feb 7, 2015 14:52:02 GMT
Has Clarke Carlisle actually been diagnosed by a mental health expert as being clinically depressed or has he just said he's depressed? I'd be interested to know. H According to his book he said he was diagnosed a while back (whilst he was still in his prime) and used to manage it with meds/psychologists etc.
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Post by davejohnno1 on Feb 7, 2015 15:03:38 GMT
Without speaking for everyone, it's probably people's astonishment over how somebody couldn't have sympathy for Carlisles predicament . Even people that know him don't have sympathy for him so it shouldn't be that surprising. I'd also ask how a bloke who has attempted to commit suicide by throwing himself in front of a lorry has escaped without a single broken bone and only a few cuts and bruises. Clarke Carlisle should be serving a prison sentence for yet another drink driving conviction and he should be having the arse sued off him by an innocent man who will be scarred for life by what Clarke Carlisle did to him. There are people far more deserving of compassion and sympathy than Clarke Carlisle, some of whom have posted on this thread themselves.
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Post by estrangedsonoffaye on Feb 7, 2015 15:04:17 GMT
Depression and mental illness in this country is not only misunderstood and still astonishingly a source a social stigma, but also possesses some of the worst treatment outcomes of any illness on the NHS. It's completely ignored at worst and people are given shedload of anti-depressants and token/non specific Cognitive Behavioural Therapy for 8 sessions at best.
It's subject to stupid and disrespectful euphemisms like "stress related illness", would a person with cancer be said to have a "cell replication illness"? Any man who is prepared to throw himself under a bus or a train is not well. FACT. This is not an attention thing, it is the corner they find themselves in. My father's cousin committed suicide several years ago and no one had an inkling as to the suffering he felt. People question why depressed people don't seek help, but it is purely down to the fact they'll be judged as "weak" and "cowards" and because treatment is medieval.
In a modern world, to dismiss a person with depression in this manner as "weak" is downright pathetic. As others have said, Suicide is the most common form of death in Males under 25. We live in a pressure society and any person that thinks this won't become a bigger problem as the years go on is deluded in the extreme. I speak with consideration to all mental illness, OCD (horrific, not just putting your forks in size order), Bi-Polar, Depression, Schizophrenia the list goes on and on.
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