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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2015 17:21:20 GMT
Great first post......have you tried the footy board yet?
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Post by harryburrows on Jul 6, 2015 17:22:21 GMT
The received wisdom that Greeks are lazy or profligate or unproductive or overly reliant on benefits (pre-2010) or whatever is precisely that: received wisdom. It's transmitted by banks, big business, mainstream media and compliant politicians and then received and accepted by all too many, despite their being very few supporting facts. In short the majority of urban myths about Greece are just that - myths. Absolute arsewater in terms of facts, lads. Classical Greek myths make for a much better read.
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Post by partickpotter on Jul 6, 2015 17:23:01 GMT
I don't need to regurgitate facts already on this thread, even the guardian article above concedes that they have spent too much. You clearly study/have studied this in some academic capacity, which gives you credence in terms of understanding the position from a theoretical and historical point of view. My views are based on my experiences in the commercial world, gained through interviewing and subsequently employing a lot of people (during the tenure of 7 governments) and understanding their motivations. If you dismiss this as mere "gut feeling" then maybe you are the one clinging to ideological and theoretical arguments. I do not blame the Greek people for the current position, in the same way as I don't blame the inhabitants of a Liverpool sink estate for staying on the dole because its pays them to do so. I blame the politicians (Greek, UK and EU) who have pursued policies to increase their own power and influence, who thrust their ideology forward as "the" solution without listening to the people who actually generate wealth or looking at the consequences past their next election. The EU has become a gigantic playground for some to make a career whilst generating no money whatsoever. I imagine you are happy with this, as according to you consumption is the answer. So lets pay everyone 100k from the public purse and get them to spend in every restaurant on the street. He certainly sounds like an academic. Completely unable to put forward a simple argument. You've summed him up perfectly - consumption is the answer. Well it is if the question is how do you create crippling double digit inflation. The point of course is capitalism isn't the answer to all the problems in the world. It has fundamental flaws. It is however better than the state controlled economy that underpins socialism. Note to our academic friend. Try and make your points sharper.
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Post by partickpotter on Jul 6, 2015 17:24:25 GMT
The received wisdom that Greeks are lazy or profligate or unproductive or overly reliant on benefits (pre-2010) or whatever is precisely that: received wisdom. It's transmitted by banks, big business, mainstream media and compliant politicians and then received and accepted by all too many, despite their being very few supporting facts. In short the majority of urban myths about Greece are just that - myths. Absolute arsewater in terms of facts, lads. Classical Greek myths make for a much better read. Beware Greeks demanding gifts.
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Post by harryburrows on Jul 6, 2015 17:28:43 GMT
The received wisdom that Greeks are lazy or profligate or unproductive or overly reliant on benefits (pre-2010) or whatever is precisely that: received wisdom. It's transmitted by banks, big business, mainstream media and compliant politicians and then received and accepted by all too many, despite their being very few supporting facts. In short the majority of urban myths about Greece are just that - myths. Absolute arsewater in terms of facts, lads. Classical Greek myths make for a much better read. Beware Greeks demanding gifts. Those Trojans were sneaky bastards
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2015 17:32:16 GMT
Beware Greeks demanding gifts. Those Trojans were sneaky bastards The Greeks were sneakier .....they hid inside the gift
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2015 17:33:19 GMT
The received wisdom that Greeks are lazy or profligate or unproductive or overly reliant on benefits (pre-2010) or whatever is precisely that: received wisdom. It's transmitted by banks, big business, mainstream media and compliant politicians and then received and accepted by all too many, despite their being very few supporting facts. In short the majority of urban myths about Greece are just that - myths. Absolute arsewater in terms of facts, lads. Classical Greek myths make for a much better read. Read the link above about pensions. That isn't a myth ....
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Post by harryburrows on Jul 6, 2015 17:34:48 GMT
Those Trojans were sneaky bastards The Greeks were sneakier .....they hid inside the gift I was talking about a little known myth bish , you probably haven't come across it
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2015 17:36:34 GMT
The Greeks were sneakier .....they hid inside the gift I was talking about a little known myth bish , you probably haven't come across it I probably have
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Post by verbalkant on Jul 6, 2015 17:36:38 GMT
The received wisdom that Greeks are lazy or profligate or unproductive or overly reliant on benefits (pre-2010) or whatever is precisely that: received wisdom. It's transmitted by banks, big business, mainstream media and compliant politicians and then received and accepted by all too many, despite their being very few supporting facts. In short the majority of urban myths about Greece are just that - myths. Absolute arsewater in terms of facts, lads. Classical Greek myths make for a much better read. Beware Greeks demanding gifts. It's okay there aren't any mate. They're just demanding a bit of dignity and common sense.
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Post by harryburrows on Jul 6, 2015 17:43:14 GMT
I was talking about a little known myth bish , you probably haven't come across it I probably have This was a story about a condom
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2015 17:45:20 GMT
I probably have This was a story about a condom In that case you may be right .....
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2015 17:58:00 GMT
The posts were so long to point out to the collective Oatcakes Branes Trust that actually the reality is much more complex than the arguments that were being put forward.
If one is to tackle economics, one must use the language of the economist, which is to understand the models and the assumptions that underlie them. After all, it is the thought process which policy-makers follow.
I think my point has been made that people are all too happy to rabidly make points they do not understand when the consumption argument has been attributed as my ideology. A point I stated I probably favour, but am not totally persuaded by (I did post that I "won't cling to it for dear life" about six times if you were paying attention). I pointed out that it was not necessarily desirable, but the period in which driving consumption was the prevailing economic rationale, we did not face such egregious market failure as we see now. It followed a war which provided a particular climate granted, but it was stable. An intellectual war has waged for decades over the correct way to view the macroeconomy. My assertion is that the neoliberal experiment will be seen to be a costly (socially and financially) experiment in years to come, with something entirely new replacing it. Let's also not forget that ongoing deficits were not really such a big thing until comparatively recently.
It is easy to dismiss the argument for driving using consumption (or at least it is if you know what you're talking about...), but it is not necessarily worse than the current arrangement. You could ironically spin it as the real politics of envy if you were so inclined.
Which brings me on to the naysayers on here. I am very well-educated, especially in the field which we are all pontificating on, but that's not to say that I have never worked, employed people, or faced the grim realities of life. It is so typical of people from Stoke on Trent to criticise anyone seeking to learn though. "Go learn a trade, son. Spout a load of shite about immigrants in the pub, no one will know if you're talking shite because they won't have a clue either."
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Post by Northy on Jul 6, 2015 17:59:49 GMT
The received wisdom that Greeks are lazy or profligate or unproductive or overly reliant on benefits (pre-2010) or whatever is precisely that: received wisdom. It's transmitted by banks, big business, mainstream media and compliant politicians and then received and accepted by all too many, despite their being very few supporting facts. In short the majority of urban myths about Greece are just that - myths. Absolute arsewater in terms of facts, lads. Classical Greek myths make for a much better read. Dont they retire at 61 and pay more out in pensions than the UK but have a far smaller population? In the last 10 years they paid out £8billion in fraudulent pensions, in an audit last year in 1 month alone they found 1500 people receiving pensions who were dead, so who was collecting the pensions ? Pity they didnt start auditing 10 years ago Sent from my SM-G850F using proboards
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Post by harryburrows on Jul 6, 2015 18:01:27 GMT
The posts were so long to point out to the collective Oatcakes Branes Trust that actually the reality is much more complex than the arguments that were being put forward. If one is to tackle economics, one must use the language of the economist, which is to understand the models and the assumptions that underlie them. After all, it is the thought process which policy-makers follow. I think my point has been made that people are all too happy to rabidly make points they do not understand when the consumption argument has been attributed as my ideology. A point I stated I probably favour, but am not totally persuaded by (I did post that I "won't cling to it for dear life" about six times if you were paying attention). I pointed out that it was not necessarily desirable, but the period in which driving consumption was the prevailing economic rationale, we did not face such egregious market failure as we see now. It followed a war which provided a particular climate granted, but it was stable. An intellectual war has waged for decades over the correct way to view the macroeconomy. My assertion is that the neoliberal experiment will be seen to be a costly (socially and financially) experiment in years to come, with something entirely new replacing it. Let's also not forget that ongoing deficits were not really such a big thing until comparatively recently. It is easy to dismiss the argument for driving using consumption (or at least it is if you know what you're talking about...), but it is not necessarily worse than the current arrangement. You could ironically spin it as the real politics of envy if you were so inclined. Which brings me on to the naysayers on here. I am very well-educated, especially in the field which we are all pontificating on, but that's not to say that I have never worked, employed people, or faced the grim realities of life. It is so typical of people from Stoke on Trent to criticise anyone seeking to learn though. "Go learn a trade, son. Spout a load of shite about immigrants in the pub, no one will know if you're talking shite because they won't have a clue either." So to summarise don't spend more than you earn
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Post by partickpotter on Jul 6, 2015 18:07:53 GMT
The posts were so long to point out to the collective Oatcakes Branes Trust that actually the reality is much more complex than the arguments that were being put forward. If one is to tackle economics, one must use the language of the economist, which is to understand the models and the assumptions that underlie them. After all, it is the thought process which policy-makers follow. I think my point has been made that people are all too happy to rabidly make points they do not understand when the consumption argument has been attributed as my ideology. A point I stated I probably favour, but am not totally persuaded by (I did post that I "won't cling to it for dear life" about six times if you were paying attention). I pointed out that it was not necessarily desirable, but the period in which driving consumption was the prevailing economic rationale, we did not face such egregious market failure as we see now. It followed a war which provided a particular climate granted, but it was stable. An intellectual war has waged for decades over the correct way to view the macroeconomy. My assertion is that the neoliberal experiment will be seen to be a costly (socially and financially) experiment in years to come, with something entirely new replacing it. Let's also not forget that ongoing deficits were not really such a big thing until comparatively recently. It is easy to dismiss the argument for driving using consumption (or at least it is if you know what you're talking about...), but it is not necessarily worse than the current arrangement. You could ironically spin it as the real politics of envy if you were so inclined. Which brings me on to the naysayers on here. I am very well-educated, especially in the field which we are all pontificating on, but that's not to say that I have never worked, employed people, or faced the grim realities of life. It is so typical of people from Stoke on Trent to criticise anyone seeking to learn though. "Go learn a trade, son. Spout a load of shite about immigrants in the pub, no one will know if you're talking shite because they won't have a clue either." No - your posts are so long because you think you're so much more intelligent than other folk and waffling on for ever and a day instead of coming to the point is your way of showing this. This is a message board, not some pretend-academic dick measuring contest. Try and be more succinct and stop showing off. Because it's very true that all thoughts on this subject are most welcome - particularly from someone who has something different to say.
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Post by partickpotter on Jul 6, 2015 18:12:03 GMT
Beware Greek politicians demanding gifts. It's okay there aren't any mate. They're just demanding a bit of dignity and common sense. Just edited it. Btw - agree with you about some dignity and respect for the Greek people. Their country is in trouble and they are suffering. Let's just hope they get some political leadership that sorts out their problems. Not sure I see that happening any time soon though.
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Post by verbalkant on Jul 6, 2015 18:14:20 GMT
The received wisdom that Greeks are lazy or profligate or unproductive or overly reliant on benefits (pre-2010) or whatever is precisely that: received wisdom. It's transmitted by banks, big business, mainstream media and compliant politicians and then received and accepted by all too many, despite their being very few supporting facts. In short the majority of urban myths about Greece are just that - myths. Absolute arsewater in terms of facts, lads. Classical Greek myths make for a much better read. Read the link above about pensions. That isn't a myth .... I agree that Greek pensions need restructuring mate absolutely. But then so do all pensions in the developed/Western world, where ageing populations and extending life expectancies are set to cause economic havoc. Do the rich and powerful queue up to take a pop at the Japanese for being lazy, retiring too early or living beyond their means though? Of course not. (Also according to the OECD, the average Greek retirement age is actually slightly above the one in Germany. ) And between 1990-2011, social expenditure as a percentage of GDP across the EU-21 rose from 20.6% to 24.9%. In Greece it rose from 16.6% to 23.5%. In other words, their pensions and benefits expenditure was just comparative to everyone else's in the EU. The reality is that Germany and the world's corporate financial bods turned a blind eye to Greece falsifying its accounts - with help from KPMG, Goldman Sachs and so on - because by allowing Greece, Spain, Portugal etc to join the Euro, the currency could be devalued and German exports went through the roof. Greece was promised an impossible utopia and is now being expected to carry the can for what was ultimately just short term greedy lending practices.
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Jul 6, 2015 18:50:42 GMT
In the sense that economics are currently skewed to the rich and powerful, yes. Or you could say towards the creation of wealth. As compared to spending it - the domain of the left. But you, like all your lefty pals, choose to ignore this simple rule of economics; to spend money you have to have it. So you either make cash or borrow it. Of course you do both, but get them out of kilter and you destroy your countries economy. Which is what has happened to Greece - who have been allowed to enter a perfect storm by appalling Givernment and an over indulgent EU protecting a Euro member. Keeping borrowing does not fix issues. It piles them up for the future when they are significantly worse. It is the politics of the coward. Looking for someone else to pick up the tab. Sound familiar? This is a desperate situation and it's not helped by the type of fantasy economics your original post proposed. The only solution is a Greek exit from the Euro and allow them to manage their own affairs. The only "fantasy economics" going on is the creation of money out of nothing by the main banks who loan this "money" at interest. The ordinary people of Greece just like us here in the UK had nothing to do with the failure of the casino style banking system. Yet they like us are expected to bail them out with our hard earned money while they carry on screwing us all. Truth hurts or is difficult to comprehend to some, honestly thought you better than your last response.
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Jul 6, 2015 18:51:33 GMT
Here's in a nutshell what happened.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2015 18:56:08 GMT
Here's in a nutshell what happened. Well I have to say that I think that's pretty Rich Huddy .
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Jul 6, 2015 19:01:28 GMT
Some more truth...
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Post by partickpotter on Jul 6, 2015 19:17:42 GMT
Or you could say towards the creation of wealth. As compared to spending it - the domain of the left. But you, like all your lefty pals, choose to ignore this simple rule of economics; to spend money you have to have it. So you either make cash or borrow it. Of course you do both, but get them out of kilter and you destroy your countries economy. Which is what has happened to Greece - who have been allowed to enter a perfect storm by appalling Givernment and an over indulgent EU protecting a Euro member. Keeping borrowing does not fix issues. It piles them up for the future when they are significantly worse. It is the politics of the coward. Looking for someone else to pick up the tab. Sound familiar? This is a desperate situation and it's not helped by the type of fantasy economics your original post proposed. The only solution is a Greek exit from the Euro and allow them to manage their own affairs. The only "fantasy economics" going on is the creation of money out of nothing by the main banks who loan this "money" at interest. The ordinary people of Greece just like us here in the UK had nothing to do with the failure of the casino style banking system. Yet they like us are expected to bail them out with our hard earned money while they carry on screwing us all. Truth hurts or is difficult to comprehend to some, honestly thought you better than your last response. You just love quoting bams don't you. You slag off banks for lending money recklessly - and quite rightly. But you don't seem to have a concern with reckless Governments spending money they don't have and relying on reckless bank lending with ever increasing terms. It's the economics of the mad house. What the Greeks need is a Government that will prioritise wealth creation and enforce taxation. Greece has massive systemic issues to address - rated in 2014 155th in the World for Enforcing Contracts (that's 2 spots ahead of Zimbabwe) and 170th for registering property is shocking for an advanced Western economy. These are key indices for ease of doing business in other words creating the environment for business growth. Easy money is not the answer to systemic issues. It just builds up problems for later.
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Post by kbillyh on Jul 6, 2015 19:21:48 GMT
The posts were so long to point out to the collective Oatcakes Branes Trust that actually the reality is much more complex than the arguments that were being put forward. If one is to tackle economics, one must use the language of the economist, which is to understand the models and the assumptions that underlie them. After all, it is the thought process which policy-makers follow. I think my point has been made that people are all too happy to rabidly make points they do not understand when the consumption argument has been attributed as my ideology. A point I stated I probably favour, but am not totally persuaded by (I did post that I "won't cling to it for dear life" about six times if you were paying attention). I pointed out that it was not necessarily desirable, but the period in which driving consumption was the prevailing economic rationale, we did not face such egregious market failure as we see now. It followed a war which provided a particular climate granted, but it was stable. An intellectual war has waged for decades over the correct way to view the macroeconomy. My assertion is that the neoliberal experiment will be seen to be a costly (socially and financially) experiment in years to come, with something entirely new replacing it. Let's also not forget that ongoing deficits were not really such a big thing until comparatively recently. It is easy to dismiss the argument for driving using consumption (or at least it is if you know what you're talking about...), but it is not necessarily worse than the current arrangement. You could ironically spin it as the real politics of envy if you were so inclined. Which brings me on to the naysayers on here. I am very well-educated, especially in the field which we are all pontificating on, but that's not to say that I have never worked, employed people, or faced the grim realities of life. It is so typical of people from Stoke on Trent to criticise anyone seeking to learn though. "Go learn a trade, son. Spout a load of shite about immigrants in the pub, no one will know if you're talking shite because they won't have a clue either." No - your posts are so long because you think you're so much more intelligent than other folk and waffling on for ever and a day instead of coming to the point is your way of showing this. This is a message board, not some pretend-academic dick measuring contest. Try and be more succinct and stop showing off. Because it's very true that all thoughts on this subject are most welcome - particularly from someone who has something different to say. I'm struggling to keep up with the depth and complexity of this argument so i think i'll just accuse those that i'm incapable of understanding of "showing off" because they "think they are so much more intelligent than everyone else". I'll then follow up with some advice on how i'd prefer the debate to be laid out. That should show em. Blinking smart arses, coming round here with their facts and stuff, makes me feel all inadequate it does.
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Jul 6, 2015 19:22:58 GMT
The only "fantasy economics" going on is the creation of money out of nothing by the main banks who loan this "money" at interest. The ordinary people of Greece just like us here in the UK had nothing to do with the failure of the casino style banking system. Yet they like us are expected to bail them out with our hard earned money while they carry on screwing us all. Truth hurts or is difficult to comprehend to some, honestly thought you better than your last response. You just love quoting bams don't you. You slag off banks for lending money recklessly - and quite rightly. But you don't seem to have a concern with reckless Governments spending money they don't have and relying on reckless bank lending with ever increasing terms. It's the economics of the mad house. What the Greeks need is a Government that will prioritise wealth creation and enforce taxation. Greece has massive systemic issues to address - rated in 2014 155th in the World for Enforcing Contracts (that's 2 spots ahead of Zimbabwe) and 170th for registering property is shocking for an advanced Western economy. These are key indices for ease of doing business in other words creating the environment for business growth. Easy money is not the answer to systemic issues. It just builds up problems for later. I do have serious concerns with reckless Governments lending money and then being profligate with it. To suggest I don't is incorrect. It's the whole issue of how money is created that needs reforming, until it is addressed expect similar crises in other countries. It's the banks that abuse their privilege that has led us into this mess. How can you possibly attach blame to the ordinary people of Greece or anywhere else for that matter?
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Post by partickpotter on Jul 6, 2015 19:23:42 GMT
No - your posts are so long because you think you're so much more intelligent than other folk and waffling on for ever and a day instead of coming to the point is your way of showing this. This is a message board, not some pretend-academic dick measuring contest. Try and be more succinct and stop showing off. Because it's very true that all thoughts on this subject are most welcome - particularly from someone who has something different to say. I'm struggling to keep up with the depth and complexity of this argument so i think i'll just accuse those that i'm incapable of understanding of "showing off" because they "think they are so much more intelligent than everyone else". I'll then follow up with some advice on how i'd prefer the debate to be laid out. That should show em. Blinking smart arses, coming round here with their facts and stuff, makes me feel all inadequate it does. Well that contribution was certainly succinct. You seem to also believe that the length of a post somehow determines its quality. Not something I follow, and certainly not the case in the above instance. Less is More.
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Post by partickpotter on Jul 6, 2015 19:26:34 GMT
You just love quoting bams don't you. You slag off banks for lending money recklessly - and quite rightly. But you don't seem to have a concern with reckless Governments spending money they don't have and relying on reckless bank lending with ever increasing terms. It's the economics of the mad house. What the Greeks need is a Government that will prioritise wealth creation and enforce taxation. Greece has massive systemic issues to address - rated in 2014 155th in the World for Enforcing Contracts (that's 2 spots ahead of Zimbabwe) and 170th for registering property is shocking for an advanced Western economy. These are key indices for ease of doing business in other words creating the environment for business growth. Easy money is not the answer to systemic issues. It just builds up problems for later. I do have serious concerns with reckless Governments lending money and then being profligate with it. To suggest I don't is incorrect. It's the whole issue of how money is created that needs reforming, until it is addressed expect similar crises in other countries. It's the banks that abuse their privilege that has led us into this mess. How can you possibly attach blame to the ordinary people of Greece or anywhere else for that matter? I'm not attaching blame to the people of Greece, I feel they've been well and truely shat on. By the Eurocrats and their Euro project prioritising a political ideology over economic realities and a shocking series of Governments in Greece that have failed their people.
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Jul 6, 2015 19:33:05 GMT
Here's a picture of Greece's finance minister at the London Conference of 1953, signing a treaty agreeing to cancel 50% of Germany's debt. Because it was the right thing to do. Just posting it, you know, for no reason.
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Jul 6, 2015 19:33:56 GMT
I do have serious concerns with reckless Governments lending money and then being profligate with it. To suggest I don't is incorrect. It's the whole issue of how money is created that needs reforming, until it is addressed expect similar crises in other countries. It's the banks that abuse their privilege that has led us into this mess. How can you possibly attach blame to the ordinary people of Greece or anywhere else for that matter? I'm not attaching blame to the people of Greece, I feel they've been well and truely shat on. By the Eurocrats and their Euro project prioritising a political ideology over economic realities and a shocking series of Governments in Greece that have failed their people. In agreement there.
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Post by boothenboy75 on Jul 6, 2015 19:46:32 GMT
The only "fantasy economics" going on is the creation of money out of nothing by the main banks who loan this "money" at interest. The ordinary people of Greece just like us here in the UK had nothing to do with the failure of the casino style banking system. Yet they like us are expected to bail them out with our hard earned money while they carry on screwing us all. Truth hurts or is difficult to comprehend to some, honestly thought you better than your last response. You just love quoting bams don't you. You slag off banks for lending money recklessly - and quite rightly. But you don't seem to have a concern with reckless Governments spending money they don't have and relying on reckless bank lending with ever increasing terms. It's the economics of the mad house. What the Greeks need is a Government that will prioritise wealth creation and enforce taxation. Greece has massive systemic issues to address - rated in 2014 155th in the World for Enforcing Contracts (that's 2 spots ahead of Zimbabwe) and 170th for registering property is shocking for an advanced Western economy. These are key indices for ease of doing business in other words creating the environment for business growth. Easy money is not the answer to systemic issues. It just builds up problems for later. C4's dispatches was on a similar subject tonight. It was on about long term loans, called Lobo's, that local authorities have taken out over the past 15 years or so. The interest rates they pay go up to about 7.5%! The banks have made about £1 billion. The independent experts the councils have used have had commision from the banks. Oh and communities up and down the country have paid the price. The programme said that if all lobo's could be refinanced then there would be savings of £750 million for the country, can't happen though, one penalty highlighted was a charge of £15 million for early repayment of a £25 million loan. All in all, the banks have stitched up the local authorities as the local authorities were too thick to notice. They paid independent advisors who were taking commision from the banks. Nobody was at fault on either side though. All brilliant stuff for the taxpayers. A dozen councils even took out loans where they paid more when interest rates were cut, and you don't need an economics degree to work out that's turned out a poor deal.
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