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Post by prettything on Oct 24, 2014 23:23:22 GMT
The thread is about Harry Roberts and what he did. Murder.
To compare,or bring up historical or contemporary incidents of police brutality or murder done to others, to counter this case, is missing the point. He was found guilty of murder, to defend or try to rationalise this, with examples of illegal police behaviour, is not relevant to this individual case.
My opinion?
He's served his time. If he's not deemed a threat to society, so be it.
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Post by sheikhmomo on Oct 25, 2014 0:27:03 GMT
The thread is about Harry Roberts and what he did. Murder. To compare,or bring up historical or contemporary incidents of police brutality or murder done to others, to counter this case, is missing the point. He was found guilty of murder, to defend or try to rationalise this, with examples of illegal police behaviour, is not relevant to this individual case. My opinion? He's served his time. If he's not deemed a threat to society, so be it. That's not really what happened on this thread though is it and why I suspect the thread is still on the main board. It was posted on here because the chant was a common one for twenty years or more and wasn't limited to a just dozen head the balls. It was chanted loudly and proudly at every home game for years, You can only conclude that Police behaviour at the time and more contemporary was entirely relevant.
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Post by prettything on Oct 25, 2014 0:37:35 GMT
I understand the point.
I don't understand how police behaviour made it acceptable for what Roberts was found guilty of doing
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Post by sheikhmomo on Oct 25, 2014 0:40:44 GMT
I understand the point. I don't understand how police behaviour made it acceptable for what Roberts was found guilty of doing I don't think anyone has said that have they? It's an understanding of where the chant emanated from. You don't really think people are justifying the action rather than the chant do you?!
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Post by prettything on Oct 25, 2014 0:47:45 GMT
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Post by Stafford-Stokie on Oct 25, 2014 7:29:54 GMT
It is still sang in pubs home and away when the plod stroll in like billy big bollox. It is great to see them stroll straight back out again with their bollox in a sling. It is not about condoning what he did but it is about giving the plod a bit of what they feel they can do to people just because their passion is football. Harry Roberts is indeed our friend, well in song on a match day anyway.
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Post by enuntio on Oct 25, 2014 7:54:28 GMT
It was a different time and place when the song was sung. Football fans were all treated like shit and the old bill treated everyone like drunken hooligans and pushed us around like cattle. This was just an anti-authoritarian chant. Yes. That's it in a nutshell. And don't forget that police officers have got away with murder on numerous occasions and treated some honest, peaceful football fans with complete disdain
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Post by stokiesteve on Oct 25, 2014 8:26:19 GMT
My problem with this kind of vile chanting is simple.
And it is the same as what you would post on the internet.
If you wouldn't stand in front of those coppers families chanting this vile song, or other people who have been subject to vile chanting in the name of football hatred, then don't stand in a football ground screaming vile either.
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Post by geoff321 on Oct 25, 2014 8:26:34 GMT
It wasn't police brutality that kept decent people from going to football matches, it was the yobs.
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Post by stokiesteve on Oct 25, 2014 8:37:25 GMT
It is still sang in pubs home and away when the plod stroll in like billy big bollox. It is great to see them stroll straight back out again with their bollox in a sling. It is not about condoning what he did but it is about giving the plod a bit of what they feel they can do to people just because their passion is football. Harry Roberts is indeed our friend, well in song on a match day anyway. You are really showing your true colours here stafford. Most of them are people doing a job.
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Post by bathstoke on Oct 25, 2014 8:41:00 GMT
It wasn't police brutality that kept decent people from going to football matches, it was the yobs. & Grossly overpriced tickets & the betrayal of the core supporter keeps them away now. How many kids can afford to go to the game on their pocket money...
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Post by crapslinger on Oct 25, 2014 9:28:05 GMT
It is still sang in pubs home and away when the plod stroll in like billy big bollox. It is great to see them stroll straight back out again with their bollox in a sling. It is not about condoning what he did but it is about giving the plod a bit of what they feel they can do to people just because their passion is football. Harry Roberts is indeed our friend, well in song on a match day anyway. You are really showing your true colours here stafford. Most of them are people doing a job.
I have the misfortune to have relatives who serve in the police service, one in particular would sell his mother to get on I have also met the few mates he has(all pigs) they to are all arrogant tossers in my opinion of course, upon joining the service he grassed up quite a few of his old mates(Stoke fans) tried to deny it but the truth came out as he was the accuser, they seem to have massive ego's and tiny brain cells hiding behind a uniform big hard men out of uniform snivelling cowards, there is a reason that the majority of the country has lost faith and respect in this so called service.
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Post by Stafford-Stokie on Oct 25, 2014 9:28:05 GMT
It is still sang in pubs home and away when the plod stroll in like billy big bollox. It is great to see them stroll straight back out again with their bollox in a sling. It is not about condoning what he did but it is about giving the plod a bit of what they feel they can do to people just because their passion is football. Harry Roberts is indeed our friend, well in song on a match day anyway. You are really showing your true colours here stafford. Most of them are people doing a job. It's all about banter and wind up. Not all but a lot of coppers stroll in and out of pubs full of footie fans giving it the big un and trying to wind every fucker up. I very much doubt a single fan would consider killing a copper but a good wind up is very much on the cards.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 25, 2014 9:29:16 GMT
My problem with this kind of vile chanting is simple. And it is the same as what you would post on the internet. If you wouldn't stand in front of those coppers families chanting this vile song, or other people who have been subject to vile chanting in the name of football hatred, then don't stand in a football ground screaming vile either. as an avid away traveler in the 80's & 90's i can quite easily see why stoke fans [and other clubs fans] would sing this to the police,you were talked to and treated like scum by the very people you pay your taxes too to protect and serve you.the chant allways sat a little bit uneasy with me[as does the munich song] but thats just my preference.
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Post by rogerjonesisgod on Nov 12, 2014 10:09:07 GMT
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Post by Staffsoatcake on Nov 12, 2014 11:00:50 GMT
He is hardly a threat to anybody now is he? I would be more concerned about paedophiles walking free on our streets.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2014 15:27:10 GMT
Convicted murderers should never be released to walk the streets again .
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Post by lawrieleslie on Nov 12, 2014 16:10:15 GMT
You are really showing your true colours here stafford. Most of them are people doing a job.
I have the misfortune to have relatives who serve in the police service, one in particular would sell his mother to get on I have also met the few mates he has(all pigs) they to are all arrogant tossers in my opinion of course, upon joining the service he grassed up quite a few of his old mates(Stoke fans) tried to deny it but the truth came out as he was the accuser, they seem to have massive ego's and tiny brain cells hiding behind a uniform big hard men out of uniform snivelling cowards, there is a reason that the majority of the country has lost faith and respect in this so called service.
With respect that is bollox. You are painting the whole British Police with the same brush as your experience of a relative and his mates who are clearly bad police officers. My own experience is probably just as relevant....my daughter is a police officer and a good one at that. She was respected by the community she served in Plymouth and gained high praise from her superiors for the way she dealt with miscreants on her patch. She has gained similar respect on the Isle of Scilly where she now polices. In addition, I have met many of her colleagues and all are dedicated police officers with the same aim of bringing serious criminals to justice while dealing with minor miscreants with a good old fashioned feeling their collar. I totally disagree with your statement "the majority of the country has lost faith and respect in this so called service."
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Post by bathstoke on Nov 12, 2014 17:56:39 GMT
So much for Army Discipline making a man of you...
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Post by crapslinger on Nov 12, 2014 21:09:52 GMT
I have the misfortune to have relatives who serve in the police service, one in particular would sell his mother to get on I have also met the few mates he has(all pigs) they to are all arrogant tossers in my opinion of course, upon joining the service he grassed up quite a few of his old mates(Stoke fans) tried to deny it but the truth came out as he was the accuser, they seem to have massive ego's and tiny brain cells hiding behind a uniform big hard men out of uniform snivelling cowards, there is a reason that the majority of the country has lost faith and respect in this so called service.
With respect that is bollox. You are painting the whole British Police with the same brush as your experience of a relative and his mates who are clearly bad police officers. My own experience is probably just as relevant....my daughter is a police officer and a good one at that. She was respected by the community she served in Plymouth and gained high praise from her superiors for the way she dealt with miscreants on her patch. She has gained similar respect on the Isle of Scilly where she now polices. In addition, I have met many of her colleagues and all are dedicated police officers with the same aim of bringing serious criminals to justice while dealing with minor miscreants with a good old fashioned feeling their collar. I totally disagree with your statement "the majority of the country has lost faith and respect in this so called service." Bollox in your opinion not in mine, you may disagree but my opinions are formed from past and recent experience there is no consistency in the way certain groups are dealt with by the police service, a few years back a man was shot dead in the Meir area by the police for carrying a wooden object can not recall what it was exactly, today an man armed with a handgun was walking around Longton brandishing the weapon in public however he was not shot dead by the police, the difference well apart from both probably suffering mental health issues one was white one was black guess which one was black.
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Post by borat on Nov 12, 2014 21:21:57 GMT
Convicted murderers should never be released to walk the streets again . 10 yeaRs ago I would have agreed but people change and grow up as they get older, NO WAY his harry roberts a danger to society anymore.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2014 21:54:46 GMT
Convicted murderers should never be released to walk the streets again . 10 yeaRs ago I would have agreed but people change and grow up as they get older, NO WAY his harry roberts a danger to society anymore. There are more than one like " Harry Roberts " that are now free ......can we ever be sure that they are all no longer a threat to society ?
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Post by lawrieleslie on Nov 13, 2014 8:07:08 GMT
With respect that is bollox. You are painting the whole British Police with the same brush as your experience of a relative and his mates who are clearly bad police officers. My own experience is probably just as relevant....my daughter is a police officer and a good one at that. She was respected by the community she served in Plymouth and gained high praise from her superiors for the way she dealt with miscreants on her patch. She has gained similar respect on the Isle of Scilly where she now polices. In addition, I have met many of her colleagues and all are dedicated police officers with the same aim of bringing serious criminals to justice while dealing with minor miscreants with a good old fashioned feeling their collar. I totally disagree with your statement "the majority of the country has lost faith and respect in this so called service." Bollox in your opinion not in mine, you may disagree but my opinions are formed from past and recent experience there is no consistency in the way certain groups are dealt with by the police service, a few years back a man was shot dead in the Meir area by the police for carrying a wooden object can not recall what it was exactly, today an man armed with a handgun was walking around Longton brandishing the weapon in public however he was not shot dead by the police, the difference well apart from both probably suffering mental health issues one was white one was black guess which one was black. The killing of Phillip Marsden of Meir in 2005 was very unfortunate but justified by IPCC. In their report it stated ""Despite clear warnings from the officers Mr Marsden deliberately aimed his imitation weapon at the police officers." He was carrying weapons not a weapon. Wooden object indeed. But, fair do's, if that suits your agenda. Has it occurred to you that the police fire arms officers are probably better trained now and that is why the black guy was not shot. You cannot play the arguement both ways. We either have a trigger happy police armed response or they are highly trained to quickly assess situations before opening fire. I would prefer the latter which I know we have have. The Longton and Meir incidents support this.
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Post by crapslinger on Nov 13, 2014 8:18:03 GMT
Bollox in your opinion not in mine, you may disagree but my opinions are formed from past and recent experience there is no consistency in the way certain groups are dealt with by the police service, a few years back a man was shot dead in the Meir area by the police for carrying a wooden object can not recall what it was exactly, today an man armed with a handgun was walking around Longton brandishing the weapon in public however he was not shot dead by the police, the difference well apart from both probably suffering mental health issues one was white one was black guess which one was black. The killing of Phillip Marsden of Meir in 2005 was very unfortunate but justified by IPCC. In their report it stated ""Despite clear warnings from the officers Mr Marsden deliberately aimed his imitation weapon at the police officers." He was carrying weapons not a weapon. Wooden stick indeed. But, fair do's, if that suits your agenda. I have no agenda I was just stating a fact, one man shot dead for carrying a wooden imitation wooden weapon which he deliberately aimed at police officers, one man was walking around in public brandishing a handgun in Longton town centre, maybe the reason he was not shot dead was that he was not threatening police officers with the weapon, that must have been the difference not very consistent though is it.
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Post by lawrieleslie on Nov 13, 2014 10:04:26 GMT
The killing of Phillip Marsden of Meir in 2005 was very unfortunate but justified by IPCC. In their report it stated ""Despite clear warnings from the officers Mr Marsden deliberately aimed his imitation weapon at the police officers." He was carrying weapons not a weapon. Wooden stick indeed. But, fair do's, if that suits your agenda. I have no agenda I was just stating a fact, one man shot dead for carrying a wooden imitation wooden weapon which he deliberately aimed at police officers, one man was walking around in public brandishing a handgun in Longton town centre, maybe the reason he was not shot dead was that he was not threatening police officers with the weapon, that must have been the difference not very consistent though is it. Ok I agree they aren't consistent outcomes but was the guy in Longton directly threatening the public or police? Also the two incidents are 9 years apart and as I said earlier police armed response officers are now far better trained. Let's make it clear that if someone takes up a fire arm or replica and makes threats to police or public there is likely to be only one outcome if that person does not respond to police warnings. We are both arguing from exteme ends of this particular spectrum and I respect your views and opinions I doubt we will ever find common ground.
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Post by wizzardofdribble on Nov 13, 2014 13:24:17 GMT
In 1966 the Police Force was very different from what it is now. Corruption in the Metropolitan Police Force was rife..half the Vice Squad had been suspended or sacked and Coppers were retiring with more money in the bank than they had earned in an entire lifetime.
Now, the Police Force is supposed to be more accountable, and it is good to see how many of these are currently under investigation regarding Historic Child Abuse cases, CSE's and other issues.
But that in no way diminishes the fact that Roberts murdered 3 people and left 3 families without Fathers, Brothers and Husbands.
How anyone can see this bloke as some form of Hero is beyond my comprehension.
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Post by crapslinger on Nov 13, 2014 13:29:37 GMT
I have no agenda I was just stating a fact, one man shot dead for carrying a wooden imitation wooden weapon which he deliberately aimed at police officers, one man was walking around in public brandishing a handgun in Longton town centre, maybe the reason he was not shot dead was that he was not threatening police officers with the weapon, that must have been the difference not very consistent though is it. Ok I agree they aren't consistent outcomes but was the guy in Longton directly threatening the public or police? Also the two incidents are 9 years apart and as I said earlier police armed response officers are now far better trained. Let's make it clear that if someone takes up a fire arm or replica and makes threats to police or public there is likely to be only one outcome if that person does not respond to police warnings. We are both arguing from exteme ends of this particular spectrum and I respect your views and opinions I doubt we will ever find common ground. The incident is now being reported in the Sentinel, he was indeed threatening members of the public with a loaded weapon albeit an air powered weapon, the difference therefore is that this guy had a real weapon not a replica and he was not directly a threat to police officers, armed police were deployed but and this is where it all gets a little strange he was not fired upon , but as you say we are never going to reach any compromise on this subject so
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Post by crapslinger on Nov 13, 2014 13:39:00 GMT
In 1966 the Police Force was very different from what it is now. Corruption in the Metropolitan Police Force was rife..half the Vice Squad had been suspended or sacked and Coppers were retiring with more money in the bank than they had earned in an entire lifetime. Now, the Police Force is supposed to be more accountable, and it is good to see how many of these are currently under investigation regarding Historic Child Abuse cases, CSE's and other issues. But that in no way diminishes the fact that Roberts murdered 3 people and left 3 families without Fathers, Brothers and Husbands. How anyone can see this bloke as some form of Hero is beyond my comprehension. Murder is murder whoever commits it to whoever, the fact is that it is deemed a worse crime if committed on a police officer than against any other member of society why , I still stand by capital punishment for all murderers if the evidence is 100% irrefutable, the men who killed Lee Rigby for instance both now incarcerated for life do you believe they will serve a full life sentence ?, the police should have done the job properly and slotted the pair of them, Harry Roberts is a murderer and should never be worshipped as a hero, the chant was and still is used to betray the lack of respect/trust from members of the general public.
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Post by wizzardofdribble on Nov 13, 2014 13:56:51 GMT
In 1966 the Police Force was very different from what it is now. Corruption in the Metropolitan Police Force was rife..half the Vice Squad had been suspended or sacked and Coppers were retiring with more money in the bank than they had earned in an entire lifetime. Now, the Police Force is supposed to be more accountable, and it is good to see how many of these are currently under investigation regarding Historic Child Abuse cases, CSE's and other issues. But that in no way diminishes the fact that Roberts murdered 3 people and left 3 families without Fathers, Brothers and Husbands. How anyone can see this bloke as some form of Hero is beyond my comprehension. Murder is murder whoever commits it to whoever, the fact is that it is deemed a worse crime if committed on a police officer than against any other member of society why , I still stand by capital punishment for all murderers if the evidence is 100% irrefutable, the men who killed Lee Rigby for instance both now incarcerated for life do you believe they will serve a full life sentence ?, the police should have done the job properly and slotted the pair of them, Harry Roberts is a murderer and should never be worshipped as a hero, the chant was and still is used to betray the lack of respect/trust from members of the general public. Fair point. I'd bring back the Death Penalty now if it was up to me, mate.
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Post by lawrieleslie on Nov 13, 2014 15:22:28 GMT
In 1966 the Police Force was very different from what it is now. Corruption in the Metropolitan Police Force was rife..half the Vice Squad had been suspended or sacked and Coppers were retiring with more money in the bank than they had earned in an entire lifetime. Now, the Police Force is supposed to be more accountable, and it is good to see how many of these are currently under investigation regarding Historic Child Abuse cases, CSE's and other issues. But that in no way diminishes the fact that Roberts murdered 3 people and left 3 families without Fathers, Brothers and Husbands. How anyone can see this bloke as some form of Hero is beyond my comprehension. Murder is murder whoever commits it to whoever, the fact is that it is deemed a worse crime if committed on a police officer than against any other member of society why , I still stand by capital punishment for all murderers if the evidence is 100% irrefutable, the men who killed Lee Rigby for instance both now incarcerated for life do you believe they will serve a full life sentence ?, the police should have done the job properly and slotted the pair of them, Harry Roberts is a murderer and should never be worshipped as a hero, the chant was and still is used to betray the lack of respect/trust from members of the general public. Thats a difficult one carslayer. If the evidence is not 100% irrefutable then a jury cannot bring a guilty verdict. What you are advocating are "levels of guilt" which cannot happen under our current justice system. I understand you sentiments though but what I think you are trying to say is that some murders are more heinous than others such as Lee Rigby as you mention. And their are many others that would fit this catagory. But of course going down this road would be very dangerous because a murder is a heinous crime to somebody if you are personally affected. And of course there is the issue of wrongful execution if the person is later to be found innocent as happens often in USA. Look at the Innocence Project website and see the hundreds of convicts who have escaped execution because of new evidence and some did not and were wrongly executed. IMO murder should be life in prison with no chance of early release and you stay there until you die. I know people will shout why should the tax payer support a killer. My answer is that is the price of a civilised society.
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