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Post by ParaPsych on Oct 19, 2014 22:47:26 GMT
Cameron is clearly a very different type of player to Whelan. It's not really about who is best at this that and the other and more about what sort of players we want in there. How do we want our midfield to be structured? Which compromises do we want to make? I think there are positives and negatives to all of our midfielders.
Apart from Palacios, who has no purpose.
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Post by StokieAsh13 on Oct 19, 2014 22:48:19 GMT
Its not about a 20 minute cameo tho Rob. He did it for 120 against Belgium. He was outstanding. I like Whelan, he has become a different player under Hughes. However like I said on another thread all DM's are different. Geoff not only has the vision to create/pick a pass going forward but the athleticism to get up & down the pitch. He also is good on the ball and had great awareness. I think them 2 seasons at full back will of helped massively. Which is absolutely right - See the Korean lad for Swansea today. Exactly my point. DMs can be versatile.
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Post by StokieAsh13 on Oct 19, 2014 22:50:29 GMT
Its not about a 20 minute cameo tho Rob. He did it for 120 against Belgium. He was outstanding. I like Whelan, he has become a different player under Hughes. However like I said on another thread all DM's are different. Geoff not only has the vision to create/pick a pass going forward but the athleticism to get up & down the pitch. He also is good on the ball and had great awareness. I think them 2 seasons at full back will of helped massively. I didn't think he was outstanding in that game either Ash. I'm happy for him to get a go there at Southampton though. I think we can agree on the last bit Rob. I just felt when he came on he brought some calmness with him. I felt he should of started with Adam in the advanced role.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Oct 19, 2014 22:51:36 GMT
There's not one person on here who said he was irreplaceable mate. More, a lot of (indeed most) of the people on here appreciate him, when you (openly admit that) you don't rate him. I don't rate him no, i've said that position could do more than Whelan offers which was PROVEN today in a 20 minute spell by Geoff Cameron (who I don't rate that highly either!!!) Ah right got yer - Geoff Cameron proved today in 20 minutes that your opinion of Glenn Whelan is correct! Awesome stuff Pugs.
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Post by Pugsley on Oct 19, 2014 22:58:11 GMT
I don't rate him no, i've said that position could do more than Whelan offers which was PROVEN today in a 20 minute spell by Geoff Cameron (who I don't rate that highly either!!!) Ah right got yer - Geoff Cameron proved today in 20 minutes that your opinion of Glenn Whelan is correct! Awesome stuff Pugs. Yep, it took all of 20 minutes to show what was possible in that position by another player. And the Korean lad showed it for Swansea. Oh, and i'll think you'll find that people WERE saying he was irreplaceable or nigh on irreplaceable on the Whelan Injured thread. Pretty awesome indeed.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Oct 19, 2014 23:09:25 GMT
Ah right got yer - Geoff Cameron proved today in 20 minutes that your opinion of Glenn Whelan is correct! Awesome stuff Pugs. Yep, it took all of 20 minutes to show what was possible in that position by another player. Â And the Korean lad showed it for Swansea. Oh, and i'll think you'll find that people WERE saying he was irreplaceable or nigh on irreplaceable on the Whelan Injured thread. Pretty awesome indeed. You really are completely and utterly blinkered towards him. I know you see it as some badge of honour because you are (specifically) consistent in your (negative) opinion of him and won't ever flinch in that regard (indeed you said exactly this last week) but I don't find it awesome at all, not one bit.
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Post by fortressbritannia on Oct 19, 2014 23:11:00 GMT
For the vast majority of the time Whelan and Nzonzi do their brilliantly. To be frank nobody else has really staked their claim to replace either of them, until today. Geoff has now given Whelan and Nzonzi a warning.
It's a fair criticism of Whelan to say that he could drive forward more (equally for Nzonzi), he's gotten away with it to an extent because he's so good at breaking up play. I also think its a fair criticism for Nzonzi to say that playing next Whelan in front of the back 4, he could be more effective in breaking up play and offering a bit more aggression at times in support of Glen.
What Cameron now gives us is choice and competition, something of which we should all be glad of. It gives us flexibility to mould tactic ect. based on opposition, form and so on. In fairness with hindsight we were probably crying out to have both Whelan and Cameron in midfield instead of Nzonzi. It isn't a matter of Nzonzi-Cameron or Cameron-Whelan, its a question of all 3.
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Post by Pugsley on Oct 19, 2014 23:13:59 GMT
Yep, it took all of 20 minutes to show what was possible in that position by another player. And the Korean lad showed it for Swansea. Oh, and i'll think you'll find that people WERE saying he was irreplaceable or nigh on irreplaceable on the Whelan Injured thread. Pretty awesome indeed. You really are completely and utterly blinkered towards him. I know you see it as some badge of honour because you are (specifically) consistent in your (negative) opinion of him and won't ever flinch in that regard (indeed you said exactly this last week) but I don't find it awesome at all, not one bit. You know jack shit sunshine. It's OK for you to consistently slate other players but not OK for other people to do the same? How did that little plan of yours to move Wilson into midfield to ultimately force him out of the side fair? Did Cameron and Ki prove today that the DM role can be more positive? We're now into personal insults from the oatcake mafia.
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Post by fortressbritannia on Oct 19, 2014 23:15:19 GMT
Cameron is clearly a very different type of player to Whelan. It's not really about who is best at this that and the other and more about what sort of players we want in there. How do we want our midfield to be structured? Which compromises do we want to make? I think there are positives and negatives to all of our midfielders. Apart from Palacios, who has no purpose. Please with all due respect bugger off with your sane and sensible response its not welcome here. What it does is give us the option to structure our midfield differently, it gives us the option to have different qualities in there.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Oct 19, 2014 23:19:40 GMT
You really are completely and utterly blinkered towards him. I know you see it as some badge of honour because you are (specifically) consistent in your (negative) opinion of him and won't ever flinch in that regard (indeed you said exactly this last week) but I don't find it awesome at all, not one bit. You know jack shit sunshine. Â It's OK for you to consistently slate other players but not OK for other people to do the same? Â How did that little plan of yours to move Wilson into midfield to ultimately force him out of the side fair? Did Cameron and Ki prove today that the DM role can be more positive? We're now into personal insults from the oatcake mafia. There appears to be just one person dishing out personal insults fella - lord knows why you feel that you're left with that as your only option. Then again ...
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Post by Pugsley on Oct 19, 2014 23:22:57 GMT
You know jack shit sunshine. It's OK for you to consistently slate other players but not OK for other people to do the same? How did that little plan of yours to move Wilson into midfield to ultimately force him out of the side fair? Did Cameron and Ki prove today that the DM role can be more positive? We're now into personal insults from the oatcake mafia. There appears to be just one person dishing out personal insults fella - lord knows why you feel you're left with that as your only option. Then again ... Really? Where are the insults from me? Why don't you answer the questions...?
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Post by Paul Spencer on Oct 19, 2014 23:31:12 GMT
There appears to be just one person dishing out personal insults fella - lord knows why you feel you're left with that as your only option. Then again ... Really? Â Where are the insults from me? Why don't you answer the questions...? First sentence of your post. You yourself said that you thought Huth should replace Wilson and Mark Bowen seemed to indicate that that was going to happen until Rob pulled his calf. Playing Adam and Ireland in the same midfield won't work - I've said it consistently. Just because Geoff had a good game today doesn't prove your theory that Whelan isn't any good there, they're BOTH good midfield players.
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Post by Pugsley on Oct 19, 2014 23:37:39 GMT
Really? Where are the insults from me? Why don't you answer the questions...? First sentence of your post. You yourself said that you thought Huth should replace Wilson and Mark Bowen seemed to indicate that that was going to happen until Rob pulled his hamstring. Playing Adam and Ireland in the same midfield won't work - I've said it consistently. Just because Geoff had a good game today doesn't prove your theory that Whelan isn't any good there, they're BOTH good midfield players. Me saying you know jack shit is an insult? Yeah OK.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Oct 19, 2014 23:43:53 GMT
First sentence of your post. You yourself said that you thought Huth should replace Wilson and Mark Bowen seemed to indicate that that was going to happen until Rob pulled his hamstring. Playing Adam and Ireland in the same midfield won't work - I've said it consistently. Just because Geoff had a good game today doesn't prove your theory that Whelan isn't any good there, they're BOTH good midfield players. Me saying you know jack shit is an insult? Â Yeah OK. Erm, I think it was YOU Pugs who started getting all sensitive (about personal insults that weren't there) in the first place, wasn't it? About those points you were so eager to discuss ...
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Post by mickstupp on Oct 19, 2014 23:54:43 GMT
Cameron has earned the right to start next week, i like the look of him in a midfield three with N'Zonzi and Adam.
I real stern test awaits against a rampant Southampton though.......
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Post by stokemanusa on Oct 19, 2014 23:58:22 GMT
If we could bring in that young RB from Burnley, I'd be interested to see Cameron and N'Zonzi at Holding Mids really allowing our front four to attack and even getting forward when they have the chance themselves. But we need to continue to be active from our RB and LB, and Cameron is definitely active. Sorry but i'm not having Cameron in central midfield. What a good idea that'd be, drop Whelan and put Cameron in his place. I don't get it, sorry. I'll apologise again, sorry. Where's Hancock?
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Post by Pugsley on Oct 20, 2014 6:42:09 GMT
Me saying you know jack shit is an insult? Yeah OK. Erm, I think it was YOU Pugs who started getting all sensitive (about personal insults that weren't there) in the first place, wasn't it? About those points you were so eager to discuss ...
I went to bed mate.
You were making stuff up about me - saying you 'know' this and that which you don't. So you know jack shit about me.
Give me Huth of 3 seasons ago then yes I would like to see him back in, but I don't think he'll ever be back totally fit. He's had a serious injury and no doubt his latest one is linked. In the cup against Sunderland he was done by Altidore for their goal. If Wilson had done that it would have been meltdown on here.
Adam and Ireland in midfield? It can't work but I never said it can. I like Ireland, he's a good intelligent footballer but he needs to add some urgency to his game. Adam shades it for me as he carries a goal threat but his fitness is a concern.
The Whelan point is proven, as other people have alluded to. TWO players proved yesterday that the position can offer a lot more but I don't think Whelan can offer more.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2014 6:55:48 GMT
I like Glenn, been a different player underHughes. However Cameron does back up the point that a DM can drive forward & make things happen as well as furfilling his defensive duties. Perfect example was against Belgium in the world cup. He never cost 25 mil either. It was a good 20 minute cameo in which 7 of his 15 passes still went backwards. Can't help feeling people are getting carried away. It was a brilliant 20 minute showing that completely changed the game. We haven't got many on the bench that can come on and change it like that.
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Post by Lakeland Potter on Oct 20, 2014 7:16:48 GMT
I like Glenn, been a different player underHughes. However Cameron does back up the point that a DM can drive forward & make things happen as well as furfilling his defensive duties. Perfect example was against Belgium in the world cup. He never cost 25 mil either. It was a good 20 minute cameo in which 7 of his 15 passes still went backwards. Can't help feeling people are getting carried away. Rob - yesterday Cameron never looked to be in any danger of slowing the game down - and you can't always say that about NZonzi, for example. Whether his pass was forwards, sideways or back, the pass never stalled the high tempo of the game we were trying to play at that point. Basically, Cameron tried to play the RIGHT pass. And a pass in any direction can be a killer pass. As I recall, the pass, after he nicked the ball of Boney, which started the build up to the winning goal was a sideways pass.
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Post by fca47 on Oct 20, 2014 7:34:31 GMT
We gave Sigurdsson the freedom of the park in the first half. There was never anyone anywhere near him, luckily for us their finishing was inept. Can't understand why Hughes didn't alter things more quickly. We got that win yesterday because of their poor finishing rather than our good play. Could have been a different game if Cameron had started. We need a driving midfielder in my opinion, and he gave us that, whether he is the answer in the long run is the question. Ireland is just a reactive player, he doesn't tackle or get around the pitch with any enthusiasm.
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Post by thepremierbanksy on Oct 20, 2014 7:50:33 GMT
Mmmm I'll have to disagree there. I thought Shawcross(penalty aside,which I need to see again) and Wilson were superb and kept Bony pretty quiet to be honest. They looked a good side going forward at times but Bony never looked like scoring. Both centre halves were shit scared of going near him and Swansea built every attack through him. He had oceans of space to pick out his man every time. Cameron used his footballing brain to suss out that Bony is useless on the deck when you come through the side of him quickly to knick the ball away, rather than playing in to him by going up his backside where he can and will roll you, or con a foul out of the ref. The result? Swansea couldn't hold the ball up anywhere near as much and started using the flanks more. Bony dropped deeper where Cameron could pick him up even easier and he ended up with a yellow after giving away a foul because he was rattled. Perfection. In all fairness as a centre half Wilson can't come at Bony from the side when he has his back to goal, if he fucks it up Bony is clean through. Thought Wilson did pretty well against Bony and was a bit surprised that we didn't have Shawcross on him instead, although he had the equally difficult task of picking up Sigurdsson.
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Post by chiefdelilah on Oct 20, 2014 8:07:26 GMT
It was a good 20 minute cameo in which 7 of his 15 passes still went backwards. Can't help feeling people are getting carried away. Rob - yesterday Cameron never looked to be in any danger of slowing the game down - and you can't always say that about NZonzi, for example. Whether his pass was forwards, sideways or back, the pass never stalled the high tempo of the game we were trying to play at that point. Basically, Cameron tried to play the RIGHT pass. And a pass in any direction can be a killer pass. As I recall, the pass, after he nicked the ball of Boney, which started the build up to the winning goal was a sideways pass. I'm not criticising him LP, merely pointing out to those bulling up Geoff as the next Zidane (as a convenient stick with which to beat Whelan) that he did a similar job - playing the sensible ball, even if it meant going backwards or sideways.
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Post by mtrstudent on Oct 20, 2014 8:32:59 GMT
Cameron has earned the right to start next week, i like the look of him in a midfield three with N'Zonzi and Adam. I real stern test awaits against a rampant Southampton though....... Id be happy to see that. Adam played very well yesterday but Ireland wws useless in that position. Geoff has shown he has a lot more technical ability than Whelan, he also works 'ard enough that I want to see him given a go at CDM. Next week alongside Nzonzi for me.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2014 8:45:06 GMT
Rob - yesterday Cameron never looked to be in any danger of slowing the game down - and you can't always say that about NZonzi, for example. Whether his pass was forwards, sideways or back, the pass never stalled the high tempo of the game we were trying to play at that point. Basically, Cameron tried to play the RIGHT pass. And a pass in any direction can be a killer pass. As I recall, the pass, after he nicked the ball of Boney, which started the build up to the winning goal was a sideways pass. I'm not criticising him LP, merely pointing out to those bulling up Geoff as the next Zidane (as a convenient stick with which to beat Whelan) that he did a similar job - playing the sensible ball, even if it meant going backwards or sideways. I wasn't intended it to be a criticism of Whelan, although I do think there are genuine comparisons to be made. As for the passing stats, that doesn't tell the whole picture. If you receive the ball and immediately knock it sideways, that passing stat will show the same as one where a player wins the ball, drives us forward 20 yards and then knocks it sideways. As you know mate, the stats don't always tell the whole story. I just thought Cameron brought another dimension to our play and he looked to push us on and his positivity breathed fresh impetus into our play. It was his positivity that overturned possession and set us on our way for the winner. For what it's worth, I've already said I'd bring Whelan back when fit. I'd be tempted to give Geoff a go in NZonzi's role.
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Post by jarvinski on Oct 20, 2014 8:57:57 GMT
After Geoffs display yesterday, I can see him replacing whelan,
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Post by albundy on Oct 20, 2014 9:12:06 GMT
Cameron had a great 20 mins yesterday. Lets hope that he can build on that and cement his place in the side while Glenn is injured. I'm not getting too carried away yet but LMH has obviously used him there in training and been impressed or he would have brought Sidwell on yesterday.
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Post by jimmygscfc on Oct 20, 2014 9:16:07 GMT
Well done Geoff, but I think we're all getting carried away here. If Whelan is unavailable next week then Cameron deserves to play instead of Ireland and stake his claim over 90 minutes. I found it just as interesting to deduce that Sidwell is pretty far from a game although I guess Hughes felt GC was more adept at the shielding role.
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Post by trickydicky73 on Oct 20, 2014 9:54:05 GMT
Cameron should retain the shirt now. I can't remember the last time a centre midfielder was that influential for us. It's one thing breaking up the play, it's another to break forward and have a positive impact. A joy to watch. I agree. I've always liked Cameron and I am glad we didn't sell him. Who would you drop for him, though?
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Post by dozintheseventees on Oct 20, 2014 10:08:47 GMT
Cameron was very good. Intelligent, kept the ball well, used it well. Just what we'd been missing for the first hour or so. Anyone who thinks Whelan doesn't influence games doesn't know anything about football. The first 70 minutes made it pretty clear that he does. Wilson had his usual game. Solid for the vast majority then a couple of dodgy moments where Ryan had to rescue him. I often feel that I'm watching a different game to some but freely admit that 'it could be me'. However, IMO Ryan was the defender marking Bony for the whole of the first half but there was a clear shift in the second when Wilson had (IMO) clearly been given that job. Bony had far less effect in the second half when Wilson was picking him up. Is it only me that saw that happen?
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Post by sheikhmomo on Oct 20, 2014 10:15:35 GMT
Cameron's cameo suggested one thing. Steve Sidwell will be lucky to play another game all season.
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