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Post by followyoudown on Aug 21, 2014 12:18:31 GMT
Me neither Mick..he's either stupid or a shit stirrer... judging by another post he's written today (Saying the "sooner Tan fucks off back to Malaysia the better" on the Malky Mackay thread) then i'm going to take a stab at both Huddy To give the benefit here Tan's exit would lesson the chances of a baadiff return to the premiership and most likely lead to their financial implosion as Vincent seems to know how to hold a grudge so in that sense if that is where he is coming from i'd welcome the same thing although i'd phrase it differently mind!
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Post by wizzardofdribble on Aug 21, 2014 13:17:06 GMT
Even in this thread there are more people concerned with defending Muslims than condemning these atrocious acts and the people supporting them/carrying them out. If the general public is more interested in avoiding offence than dealing with a sensitive issue then its only going to get worse. who's done that then? no-one at all from what i can see i think the trap you've fallen into is presuming that because some people haven't condemned the ENTIRE Islamic faith that apparently therefore means they're defending muslim extremists which just isn't true at all and extremely duplicitous of you to even suggest that's what people are doing. Spot on Mick..Extremely duplicitous.
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Post by boothenboy75 on Aug 21, 2014 13:18:37 GMT
You can have no possible idea if his parents were "totally sound migrants" or not, whatever thats supposed to mean. If I was a betting man though I'd put money on them being one of the more insular migrants. In my mind this can be the only possible reasoning behind them raising a cold blooded murderer. i presume you are aware that there are literally hundreds, no thousands of "Cold blooded murderers" throughout the ages that were brought up by perfectly good, normal, rational people who had no issues or problems with being insular in their societies at all aren't you? or is this kind of presumption on your part only reserved for murderers who happen to be Muslim or migrants as apparently migrants can't be the same kind of people as you, me and everyone else so there must therefore be different reasons for why THEY became "cold blooded murderers". just a lazy and cheap throwaway excuse unless you have anything to back it up really He's a migrant....no he was born and bred British Well, his parents were probably wrong 'uns.....no they were good people Well, er, um, they must have been insular then....how many straws do you want to grab at exactly? the simple fact is that it's not because he's British...it's not because he's muslim....it's because he's a muslim extremist. the nationality of him and his family for generations beforehand is, as salop says, completely irrelevant. don't blame the religion the nutters are hiding behind (all religions have them including christianity), don't blame the country they came from.blame the extremist organisation behind it and the individual that carried out the crime itself otherwise you're simply not dealing with the real problem at all, you're just dressing it up as something else entirely that looks like a quick fix and solving that won't eradicate what's actually the cause in the first place. Seeing as you ask I'd say most murderers and/or criminals actions will be at least in part due to their upbringing. At no point do I try to make out that it's solely a Muslim upbringing that can produce murderers/criminals. I was responding to a comment about a Muslim Jihadist, in which it's claimed his parents are sound. This sort of assumption though is fine I presume? Whoever this monster is, I'm sure we'll eventually find that he received a balanced education in a well integrated community who value other cultures.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2014 13:23:53 GMT
i presume you are aware that there are literally hundreds, no thousands of "Cold blooded murderers" throughout the ages that were brought up by perfectly good, normal, rational people who had no issues or problems with being insular in their societies at all aren't you? or is this kind of presumption on your part only reserved for murderers who happen to be Muslim or migrants as apparently migrants can't be the same kind of people as you, me and everyone else so there must therefore be different reasons for why THEY became "cold blooded murderers". just a lazy and cheap throwaway excuse unless you have anything to back it up really He's a migrant....no he was born and bred British Well, his parents were probably wrong 'uns.....no they were good people Well, er, um, they must have been insular then....how many straws do you want to grab at exactly? the simple fact is that it's not because he's British...it's not because he's muslim....it's because he's a muslim extremist. the nationality of him and his family for generations beforehand is, as salop says, completely irrelevant. don't blame the religion the nutters are hiding behind (all religions have them including christianity), don't blame the country they came from.blame the extremist organisation behind it and the individual that carried out the crime itself otherwise you're simply not dealing with the real problem at all, you're just dressing it up as something else entirely that looks like a quick fix and solving that won't eradicate what's actually the cause in the first place. Seeing as you ask I'd say most murderers and/or criminals actions will be at least in part due to their upbringing. At no point do I try to make out that it's solely a Muslim upbringing that can produce murderers/criminals. I was responding to a comment about a Muslim Jihadist, in which it's claimed his parents are sound. This sort of assumption though is fine I presume? Whoever this monster is, I'm sure we'll eventually find that he received a balanced education in a well integrated community who value other cultures. my point is simply that you dismissed the post you were responding to out of hand because he never knew anything of the situation and replaced it with your own opinion based on pop pyschology despite you knowing nothing of the situation either. i was merely pointing out that there ARE pkenty of people out there who have committed atrocious crimes that had nothing to do with their upbringing...psycopaths, sociopaths etc. tend to be most likely to carry out the worst atrocities (on individual levels rather than wars etc.) and those illnesses have nothing to do with upbringing. i simply find it distasteful to presume someone is wrong and your opinion is more valid when it has nothing as of yet to support it, it's based on as little knowledge of the situation as the post you were responding to and relies upon you not only presuming what the murderer was like but now also his family and upbringing.
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Post by desman2 on Aug 21, 2014 13:51:23 GMT
Wonder who we will blame when these nutters start doing stuff like this either here or in other parts of Europe.
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Aug 21, 2014 13:56:45 GMT
Wonder who we will blame when these nutters start doing stuff like this either here or in other parts of Europe. Who would you like to blame?
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Post by desman2 on Aug 21, 2014 14:01:58 GMT
Mainly our spineless politicians for sucking up to these scum and not having the balls to confront those that fester in this country.
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Post by thevoid on Aug 21, 2014 14:14:54 GMT
Wonder who we will blame when these nutters start doing stuff like this either here or in other parts of Europe. Who would you like to blame? The left and their 'appeasement'.
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Post by followyoudown on Aug 21, 2014 14:17:10 GMT
Mainly our spineless politicians for sucking up to these scum and not having the balls to confront those that fester in this country. Intriguing i'm not really aware of any politician sucking up to ISIS or Al Queda maybe you could tell us which politician you're on about?
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Post by followyoudown on Aug 21, 2014 14:18:34 GMT
Who would you like to blame? The left and their 'appeasement'. I'm all for blaming the left but who have they being appeasing exactly?
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Post by desman2 on Aug 21, 2014 14:30:58 GMT
Since 9/11 politicians here and in the western nations have sucked up to anything connected with islamics. Only since then have these problems seriously taken off. These vermin have piggy backed this religion and our politicians have made it so easy for them to do so, by enacting stupid legislation which is intended to do nothing more than shut you (and me) up. It must have been like a new toy at christmas as all these so called leaders like Blair and Bush decided that people getting concerned at things like this wasn,t good for the world, so we,ll turn anyone who shows that concern vocally into a crminal. If these dirtbags are in the UK, and maybe getting ready to inflict some atrocity on someone at some point then that makes a very dangerous situation and being a decent guy (which im sure you are), dosnt mean that you will be overlooked.
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Post by desman2 on Aug 21, 2014 14:33:12 GMT
The left and their 'appeasement'. I'm all for blaming the left but who have they being appeasing exactly? They are appeasing that religion which in turn allows their extremists to attach themselves to it in the knowledge that no one will say anything because the laws are stacked against doing so.
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Post by followyoudown on Aug 21, 2014 14:47:25 GMT
Since 9/11 politicians here and in the western nations have sucked up to anything connected with islamics. Only since then have these problems seriously taken off. These vermin have piggy backed this religion and our politicians have made it so easy for them to do so, by enacting stupid legislation which is intended to do nothing more than shut you (and me) up. It must have been like a new toy at christmas as all these so called leaders like Blair and Bush decided that people getting concerned at things like this wasn,t good for the world, so we,ll turn anyone who shows that concern vocally into a crminal. If these dirtbags are in the UK, and maybe getting ready to inflict some atrocity on someone at some point then that makes a very dangerous situation and being a decent guy (which im sure you are), dosnt mean that you will be overlooked. You mean only since 9/11 after invading Iraq and Afghanistan have these problems seriously taken off I'm afraid i'm not sure what you are on about when you say you are turned into a criminal or being shut up, show me the law that says you can't criticise the killers of lee rigby or any of the murderers. They have been dirtbgs in the UK for many years and I don't remember this level of hysteria when the IRA were bombing and murdering all over the country, maybe you are too young to remember but the government tried cracking down hard on the IRA and its debatable whether it worked or reenforced support for them.
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Post by RichieBarkerOut! on Aug 21, 2014 14:48:04 GMT
Our "leaders" will continue to be spineless whilst we are reliant on Saudi oil and investment.
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Post by desman2 on Aug 21, 2014 14:51:52 GMT
Since 9/11 politicians here and in the western nations have sucked up to anything connected with islamics. Only since then have these problems seriously taken off. These vermin have piggy backed this religion and our politicians have made it so easy for them to do so, by enacting stupid legislation which is intended to do nothing more than shut you (and me) up. It must have been like a new toy at christmas as all these so called leaders like Blair and Bush decided that people getting concerned at things like this wasn,t good for the world, so we,ll turn anyone who shows that concern vocally into a crminal. If these dirtbags are in the UK, and maybe getting ready to inflict some atrocity on someone at some point then that makes a very dangerous situation and being a decent guy (which im sure you are), dosnt mean that you will be overlooked. You mean only since 9/11 after invading Iraq and Afghanistan have these problems seriously taken off I'm afraid i'm not sure what you are on about when you say you are turned into a criminal or being shut up, show me the law that says you can't criticise the killers of lee rigby or any of the murderers. They have been dirtbgs in the UK for many years and I don't remember this level of hysteria when the IRA were bombing and murdering all over the country, maybe you are too young to remember but the government tried cracking down hard on the IRA and its debatable whether it worked or reenforced support for them. To young to remember. I spent three tours in Northern Ireland in the 70s. As for the cracking down. Tell me about it.
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Post by followyoudown on Aug 21, 2014 14:55:53 GMT
I'm all for blaming the left but who have they being appeasing exactly? They are appeasing that religion which in turn allows their extremists to attach themselves to it in the knowledge that no one will say anything because the laws are stacked against doing so. I'm afraid thats just verging on bollocks mate, you really think the extremists give a flying what you think you can and can not say about them, what they want is the exact reaction you are giving fear and suspicion of ALL muslims - do you actually know any muslims ? I've worked all over the country with quite a few, from my experience they are no different to people of any other religion, some are knobs some are sound, the more people you meet the more you find that out about all races, nationalities etc etc
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Post by desman2 on Aug 21, 2014 15:02:08 GMT
They are appeasing that religion which in turn allows their extremists to attach themselves to it in the knowledge that no one will say anything because the laws are stacked against doing so. I'm afraid thats just verging on bollocks mate, you really think the extremists give a flying what you think you can and can not say about them, what they want is the exact reaction you are giving fear and suspicion of ALL muslims - do you actually know any muslims ? I've worked all over the country with quite a few, from my experience they are no different to people of any other religion, some are knobs some are sound, the more people you meet the more you find that out about all races, nationalities etc etc No it allows them to attach themselves to cause division.
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Post by followyoudown on Aug 21, 2014 15:02:26 GMT
You mean only since 9/11 after invading Iraq and Afghanistan have these problems seriously taken off I'm afraid i'm not sure what you are on about when you say you are turned into a criminal or being shut up, show me the law that says you can't criticise the killers of lee rigby or any of the murderers. They have been dirtbgs in the UK for many years and I don't remember this level of hysteria when the IRA were bombing and murdering all over the country, maybe you are too young to remember but the government tried cracking down hard on the IRA and its debatable whether it worked or reenforced support for them. To young to remember. I spent three tours in Northern Ireland in the 70s. As for the cracking down. Tell me about it. Well you should know then all about what went on in northern ireland, illicit support for loyalist paramilitaries, collusion in murders by the spooks, the hunger strikes etc etc. all of it reenforced support for the IRA and probably dragged the troubles on.
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Post by thevoid on Aug 21, 2014 15:06:24 GMT
Since 9/11 politicians here and in the western nations have sucked up to anything connected with islamics. Only since then have these problems seriously taken off. These vermin have piggy backed this religion and our politicians have made it so easy for them to do so, by enacting stupid legislation which is intended to do nothing more than shut you (and me) up. It must have been like a new toy at christmas as all these so called leaders like Blair and Bush decided that people getting concerned at things like this wasn,t good for the world, so we,ll turn anyone who shows that concern vocally into a crminal. If these dirtbags are in the UK, and maybe getting ready to inflict some atrocity on someone at some point then that makes a very dangerous situation and being a decent guy (which im sure you are), dosnt mean that you will be overlooked. You mean only since 9/11 after invading Iraq and Afghanistan have these problems seriously taken off I'm afraid i'm not sure what you are on about when you say you are turned into a criminal or being shut up, show me the law that says you can't criticise the killers of lee rigby or any of the murderers. They have been dirtbgs in the UK for many years and I don't remember this level of hysteria when the IRA were bombing and murdering all over the country, maybe you are too young to remember but the government tried cracking down hard on the IRA and its debatable whether it worked or reenforced support for them. You can hardly compare the IRA with jihadists. The IRA's beef is/was with Britain and Britain alone, not anyone who isn't Irish or Catholic. Same with ETA and the Spanish. What's happening in Iraq and Syria is in a whole new league- a barbarian horde who will never see reason.
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Post by followyoudown on Aug 21, 2014 15:06:31 GMT
I'm afraid thats just verging on bollocks mate, you really think the extremists give a flying what you think you can and can not say about them, what they want is the exact reaction you are giving fear and suspicion of ALL muslims - do you actually know any muslims ? I've worked all over the country with quite a few, from my experience they are no different to people of any other religion, some are knobs some are sound, the more people you meet the more you find that out about all races, nationalities etc etc No it allows them to attach themselves to cause division. Sorry just not getting your point, the extremists have attached themselves already as it is their religion just like the IRA were catholics. I really don't get what you think you are stopped from saying that would put them off being extremists.
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Post by followyoudown on Aug 21, 2014 15:09:45 GMT
You mean only since 9/11 after invading Iraq and Afghanistan have these problems seriously taken off I'm afraid i'm not sure what you are on about when you say you are turned into a criminal or being shut up, show me the law that says you can't criticise the killers of lee rigby or any of the murderers. They have been dirtbgs in the UK for many years and I don't remember this level of hysteria when the IRA were bombing and murdering all over the country, maybe you are too young to remember but the government tried cracking down hard on the IRA and its debatable whether it worked or reenforced support for them. You can hardly compare the IRA with jihadists. The IRA's beef is/was with Britain and Britain alone, not anyone who isn't Irish or Catholic. What's happening in Iraq and Syria is in a whole new league- a barbarian horde who will never reason. You might have a point if we were say Norwegian or something but as I'm british living in britain, they pose just as much threat to me as the IRA did. The majority of people killed in Iraq and Syria by ISIS are I believe muslims by the way.
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Post by desman2 on Aug 21, 2014 15:13:01 GMT
OK the wider view is that most muslims are sensible ordinary folk. Those who oppose the way of life here and who live here dont want any sensible muslims having anything in relation to us so they demand things, get offended easily, and in extreme cases kill people. This then causes many people to start resenting the whole religion as one of violence and irrationality. Theyve then caused an us and them division.
As for it already being their religion, that guy on that press story up above here begs to differ.
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Post by desman2 on Aug 21, 2014 15:15:39 GMT
You can hardly compare the IRA with jihadists. The IRA's beef is/was with Britain and Britain alone, not anyone who isn't Irish or Catholic. What's happening in Iraq and Syria is in a whole new league- a barbarian horde who will never reason. You might have a point if we were say Norwegian or something but as I'm british living in britain, they pose just as much threat to me as the IRA did. The majority of people killed in Iraq and Syria by ISIS are I believe muslims by the way. Youve just explained then why it should be eradicated ruthlessly and without mercy here. Unless of course it would deemed to be racist.
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Post by followyoudown on Aug 21, 2014 15:25:49 GMT
OK the wider view is that most muslims are sensible ordinary folk. Those who oppose the way of life here and who live here dont want any sensible muslims having anything in relation to us so they demand things, get offended easily, and in extreme cases kill people. This then causes many people to start resenting the whole religion as one of violence and irrationality. Theyve then caused an us and them division. As for it already being their religion, that guy on that press story up above here begs to differ. They were muslims before they became extremists is my point although in some cases like 7/7 it is converts who were involved, if you have a way to detect these extremists you'll be a very rich man but unfortunately we have to rely on the security services catching and imprisoning such people and unfortunately they will not catch everyone just like they didn't with the IRA.
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Post by followyoudown on Aug 21, 2014 15:32:31 GMT
You might have a point if we were say Norwegian or something but as I'm british living in britain, they pose just as much threat to me as the IRA did. The majority of people killed in Iraq and Syria by ISIS are I believe muslims by the way. Youve just explained then why it should be eradicated ruthlessly and without mercy here. Unless of course it would deemed to be racist. Setting aside a fairly important part of being british (innocent until proven guilty), you can't eradicate what a few misguided fools think and if you are talking about state sponsored executions or assasinations you'll simply be reinforcing what these fools think. To answer your question islam is a religion not a race so it would be more likely to fall foul of religious hate laws however if your view is all terrorists should be executed you have nothing to fear, it would only be a problem if you only wanted muslim terrorists executed.
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Post by lawrieleslie on Aug 21, 2014 15:41:20 GMT
So do we continue to throw bags of rice to help those who are being slaughtered by these thugs or do we create smoke and mirrors in an "are we aren't we" going to get involved in military action. The dilema is that with the conflicts currently in Ukraine, Syria, Palestine and Libya such action could easily kick off global conflict. But to do nothing smacks of appeasement and we may end up paying a heavy price. We need strong leaders who will make decisions and then allow them to be followed through without continual micro management as Blair did in Iraq. This is not a time for fannying around waiting for UN and EU sanctions because our own security is very much under threat.
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Post by britsabroad on Aug 21, 2014 16:35:06 GMT
Even in this thread there are more people concerned with defending Muslims than condemning these atrocious acts and the people supporting them/carrying them out. If the general public is more interested in avoiding offence than dealing with a sensitive issue then its only going to get worse. who's done that then? no-one at all from what i can see i think the trap you've fallen into is presuming that because some people haven't condemned the ENTIRE Islamic faith that apparently therefore means they're defending muslim extremists which just isn't true at all and extremely duplicitous of you to even suggest that's what people are doing. Think youre getting confused. Irrespective of anyones opinions, plenty of posters keen to comment that its not all Muslims etc, without a word on the act itself. Its as simple as that really.
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Post by britsabroad on Aug 21, 2014 16:39:55 GMT
Even in this thread there are more people concerned with defending Muslims than condemning these atrocious acts and the people supporting them/carrying them out. If the general public is more interested in avoiding offence than dealing with a sensitive issue then its only going to get worse. Applying your logic I could assume you are offended by the beheading of an American journalist in Iraq but seem to have been remarkably ambivalent to the killing and in some cases beheading of hundreds if not thousands of iraqi Muslims, Christians and other minorities by the same group as you have stayed silent. I won't as like most sane people i'll assume you're against the murder of people of any creed or colour perhaps you should try the same.... But this thread isnt about them, is it. Its about the beheading of the single journalist. Start another thread about them if you want me to comment on them
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Post by thevoid on Aug 21, 2014 17:15:45 GMT
You can hardly compare the IRA with jihadists. The IRA's beef is/was with Britain and Britain alone, not anyone who isn't Irish or Catholic. What's happening in Iraq and Syria is in a whole new league- a barbarian horde who will never reason. You might have a point if we were say Norwegian or something but as I'm british living in britain, they pose just as much threat to me as the IRA did. The majority of people killed in Iraq and Syria by ISIS are I believe muslims by the way. Funny you should mention Norway, there are Muslims in Norway demanding a seperate Sharia state there.
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Post by Nick1984 on Aug 21, 2014 18:14:06 GMT
Just looking at the faces on the Daily Mail.
Not a single one looks Arabic, no doubt Pakistani and a great product of Britain's mosques.
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