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Post by ColonelMustard on Jul 26, 2014 8:37:17 GMT
to say neither side wants peace is bollocks - of course many Palestinians will express anger and want vengeance right now, but in the long run I think they want a life with some rights and some freedoms much more than vengeance - the general level of tolerance and patience ('peace') by Palestinians is astonishing in the face of the land grabbing, military law, random night raids, arrests without trial, the ID card society, the lack of freedom of movement, the complete control of civil society, the endless lies and misrepresentations blah blah blah - if you watch them go through the pointless morning checkpoints on the way to work, being shouted at by gun toting teenagers, you realise they are nation that has learned patience on a level we dont understand. generally their patience and their belief to what they believe is right are massively impressive. obviously there is anger and obviously there will be expressions of violence. the Palestinians don't have the option of Peace - they have nothing to bargain with, they have conceded and lost virtually everything. the fact that Israel now admits Hamas did not kidnap the 3 settlers (and be under no illusion if they were Palestinians there would have been no fuss) means that the act of arresting hundreds of Hamas related people and rearresting prisoners released as part of a deal was the aggressive act in this situation. the kidnap was not wht its about and the fucking rockets are not what its about, but even if they stop them they do not return to peace, they return to a siege and occupation that we will all fucking ignore/ legitimise again. they want peace, but right now maybe not as much as they want the world to see what is happening to them
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Post by ColonelMustard on Jul 26, 2014 8:40:00 GMT
This week's R4 Moral Maze, Just War and Gaza, is well worth listening to. My take from the program is the "moral" argument sort of distilled itself down to this conundrum; Hamas seek to kill civilians through indiscriminate rocket fire, only they aren't very good at it. Ie they don't kill many people Israel seek to avoid killing civilians through targeted strikes, only they also aren't very good at it. Ie they kill lots of people. A couple of the participants (no surprise Melanie Phillips being one) felt this showed that Israel were on the moral high ground and that the scale of deaths wasn't relevant. The other two participants didn't agree; you can't separate morality from outcome. I'm with this last view. I thought one closing comment from one contributor was interesting; the leadership of both sides will be very happy with the outcome of this latest episode; Hamas in that they will got lots of positive PR, Israel because they have again shown to the world they won't be pushed around. But the citizens of their countries won't be so happy - they, as ever, carry the can. A very good and honest assessment of the situation. I'm in neither camp but the thing that tips the scales is the proportionate force for me. I have no doubt whatsoever that if Hamas had the same weaponry then we would be facing the same situation as we are now. this is the bottom line, although I doubt that they would get in were conditions better - the Palestinians would vote for a UN force tomorrow
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Post by wizzardofdribble on Jul 26, 2014 8:50:05 GMT
This week's R4 Moral Maze, Just War and Gaza, is well worth listening to. My take from the program is the "moral" argument sort of distilled itself down to this conundrum; Hamas seek to kill civilians through indiscriminate rocket fire, only they aren't very good at it. Ie they don't kill many people Israel seek to avoid killing civilians through targeted strikes, only they also aren't very good at it. Ie they kill lots of people. A couple of the participants (no surprise Melanie Phillips being one) felt this showed that Israel were on the moral high ground and that the scale of deaths wasn't relevant. The other two participants didn't agree; you can't separate morality from outcome. I'm with this last view. I thought one closing comment from one contributor was interesting; the leadership of both sides will be very happy with the outcome of this latest episode; Hamas in that they will got lots of positive PR, Israel because they have again shown to the world they won't be pushed around. But the citizens of their countries won't be so happy - they, as ever, carry the can. Israel lost all rights to the 'moral higher ground' with the Sabra and Shatilla Palestinian refugee camp massacres of the early 1980s...atrocities that they've repeated ever since. .if there's ever a case of poacher turned gamekeeper its Israel. Melanie Philips is also a case of poacher turned gamekeeper..a decent objective journalist in her youth..now just an Israeli Apologist..backing whatever they do without question. Not all Israelis are so morally ambivalent though...not all agree with what their Government are doing in their name Given their own History some find their Governments actions absolutely repugnant. But on it's own this is not enough..there needs to be external pressure on Israel. .but that can only come from The West now..The USSR is no longer a player. It will be interesting to see how China inteprets Israeli actions and hkw that affects their future potential middle eastern interests. To say nothing of Palestinian extremists who will whip up popular support with yet another example of Israeli atrocities aided and abetted by The USA/UK...attracting all manner of disaffected youth on a Global scale. Now we have the internet spreading propaganda it makes the Israeli/ Palestinian question even more explosive. A question that in over two thousand years has failed to produce an anwser. One piece of Land which two distinct and seperate groups of people fight over. That. .in essence...is the problem. Whoever controls the land controls the Economic, Political, Social and Religous Systems.
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Post by redstriper on Jul 27, 2014 9:03:03 GMT
With thousands of years of conflict between them it's no surprise that this is still happening, but it appears that Israel have altered their traditional "eye for an eye" and replaced it with "a hundred eyes for an eye".
I wonder what would the worlds reaction have been if the British government had adopted a similar policy in Northern Ireland in the seventies when the IRA were killing innocent people in pubs in Birmingham ?, one thing is for sure, rockets into the falls road would not have helped us reach the (admittedly still uneasy) peace that we now have.
I agree with mmumf, the UK should stand well clear of intervening and taking sides. But a U.N. led initiative is surely overdue, and not voting for it looks pretty shameful in my view. A solution has been found in Cyprus which has maintained a peaceful position for a generation, if these things can hold for three generations so that those who lost loved ones become history, then peace takes a hold.
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Jul 27, 2014 12:15:49 GMT
For those still thinking it's not our problem, I beg you to watch this...
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Post by starkiller on Jul 28, 2014 23:31:32 GMT
The Child Slaughterers have now hit a hospital and playground.
Not a word from Cameron in this Zionist controlled country.
Just remember this when they try the humanitarian crisis argument for another invasion.
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Jul 29, 2014 1:38:13 GMT
Those supporting Israel seem to have gone mighty quiet...
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Post by britsabroad on Jul 29, 2014 7:25:51 GMT
Those supporting Israel seem to have gone mighty quiet... I havent seen anyone supporting Israel in this thread, just those with enough sense to see both sides to a story .
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2014 7:27:41 GMT
Those supporting Israel seem to have gone mighty quiet... I havent seen anyone supporting Israel in this thread, just those with enough sense to see both sides to a story . ""He just doesn't get it " does he ?
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Jul 29, 2014 9:30:48 GMT
Those supporting Israel seem to have gone mighty quiet... I havent seen anyone supporting Israel in this thread, just those with enough sense to see both sides to a story . Both sides?
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Post by partickpotter on Jul 29, 2014 11:41:23 GMT
I havent seen anyone supporting Israel in this thread, just those with enough sense to see both sides to a story . Both sides? Yes indeed there are two sides. Let's have a look at the score; Israel 700, Hamas 3 That's civilians killed. Total deaths score; Israel 1,080, Hamas 55
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Post by The Drunken Communist on Jul 29, 2014 11:47:45 GMT
So the barbaric, evil, scumbags of Hamas have a 95% strike rate of killing enemy soliders, and the peaceful good guys of Israel, who're only defending themselves & targetting terrorists, have a 75% strikerate of killing civilians.
God them Palestinian's make me sick. Go Israel!
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Post by mermaidsal on Jul 29, 2014 12:28:43 GMT
The Child Slaughterers have now hit a hospital and playground. Not a word from Cameron in this Zionist controlled country. Just remember this when they try the humanitarian crisis argument for another invasion. Sometimes the paranoid are the only ones talking sense. Tragically I see no lasting solution to this that deosn't involve the obliteration of Israel and hell will freeze over before that happens
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2014 12:41:57 GMT
I'm sure that if this conflict gets miraculously resolved peacefully , then another one or three will break out nearby soon.
It's how things are ...it's in the Jeans or is it genes ?
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Post by wizzardofdribble on Jul 29, 2014 13:09:43 GMT
The Child Slaughterers have now hit a hospital and playground. Not a word from Cameron in this Zionist controlled country. Just remember this when they try the humanitarian crisis argument for another invasion. Sometimes the paranoid are the only ones talking sense. Tragically I see no lasting solution to this that deosn't involve the obliteration of Israel and hell will freeze over before that happens There doesn't seem to be a solution Sal..two groups of people fighting over the same piece of Land. Although a similar position is true in Northern Ireland. .Nationalists (Catholics) want a United Ireland, whilst Loyalists (Protestants) want to remain part of the UK. Two into one won't go but a 'solution' has been found with a form of power sharing between Dublin & London. Protestants are told they are still part of the UK whilst Nationalists are told they are in a ' transformation' to a United Ireland. This has only happened because of pressure from the USA who have always backed the Nationalists. .Clinton met Gerry Adams on The Falls Road remember. .NORAID raised millions for the IRA. But this isn't the case in Israel..the USA doesn't back the Historically dispossessed it supports the aggressor..Israel..who occupied Palestinian land in 1947 and have done ever since ..armed to the teeth with the latest hi tech USA weapon systems. Hence the importance of emerging powers like China..only they have the clout to make the USA question their role in Israel..abd until that happens the Israelis will continue slaughtering Palestinians especially more moderate groups. .a Policy they've employed for decades..leaving the more extreme groups to launch suicide bombs etc etc giving the Israelis even greater ' justification' to commit more atrocities.
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Post by starkiller on Jul 29, 2014 22:41:23 GMT
For those not totally desensitised to children being massacred, children were killed in public gardens today whilst playing on swings. Total for today is 100 dead.
And the word from the complicit UK Government is ...
Anyone still in any doubt which psychopaths control this country (virtually the whole world) and its foreign policy?
Gaza's sole power plant now destroyed. What kind of medical care can be given, with virtually no supplies and now no electricity for the 7000 children maimed?
There is no war between Gaza and Israel. Israel is conducting Genocide against the Palestinian people who are locked into the concentration camp that is Gaza. This is a war crime and all who are complicit are war criminals.?
Genocide - the deliberate and systematic extermination of a national, racial, political, or cultural group.
Coming up next. More child-killing throughout the night and tomorrow...
Edit: Starkiller, As relevant as those photographs may be to your argument, I'm afraid this is not the place to post them. - Admin
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2014 23:34:15 GMT
Is all this information you have provided come by way of western media sources who you don't trust and ridicule on a regular basis as liars etc ?
Are we supposed to now believe them because it suits ?
I'm going to do what you normally do and doubt their authenticity as to their reporting of violence etc...
So there you go....a man who has destroyed his own argument is now preaching by way of the ';resident evil press' from the west,
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Jul 29, 2014 23:50:55 GMT
Is all this information you have provided come by way of western media sources who you don't trust and ridicule on a regular basis as liars etc ? Are we supposed to now believe them because it suits ? I'm going to do what you normally do and doubt their authenticity as to their reporting of violence etc... So there you go....a man who has destroyed his own argument is now preaching by way of the ';resident evil press' from the west, Did you watch the Jon Snow video I posted? Are you calling Jon Snow a liar too? You really don't get it do you?
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Post by starkiller on Jul 30, 2014 0:07:27 GMT
Is all this information you have provided come by way of western media sources who you don't trust and ridicule on a regular basis as liars etc ? Are we supposed to now believe them because it suits ? I'm going to do what you normally do and doubt their authenticity as to their reporting of violence etc... So there you go....a man who has destroyed his own argument is now preaching by way of the ';resident evil press' from the west, If think this is information from the 10 o'clock news or any of the daily rag websites, try again. You have won your own argument in your head. Well done.
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Post by lastoftheldk on Jul 30, 2014 0:22:56 GMT
And lsrael have rejected another cease fire proposal tonight, UN are useless,
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2014 6:24:02 GMT
Is all this information you have provided come by way of western media sources who you don't trust and ridicule on a regular basis as liars etc ? Are we supposed to now believe them because it suits ? I'm going to do what you normally do and doubt their authenticity as to their reporting of violence etc... So there you go....a man who has destroyed his own argument is now preaching by way of the ';resident evil press' from the west, Did you watch the Jon Snow video I posted? Are you calling Jon Snow a liar too? You really don't get it do you? I'm doing a 'star killer'. I'm mocking him . I'm mocking his mistrust of the media as I have never doubted news reports from the area. Now I'm going to mock you too for thinking that I thought Jon snow was a liar. " you just don't get it ,do you ?" One dead child's picture is as bad as the next. You're warped..very warped. Both of you infact.
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Post by starkiller on Jul 30, 2014 10:12:17 GMT
Another thing that continues not to be mentioned in the media is how HAMAS was actually created by the Israeli secret service, Mossad.
Israel never has any intention of peace. They need the constant Hamas rockets (fireworks) to justify the continued genocide and land theft.
Another UN school bombed - 43 dead.
Zionists run the world and have been behind every major conflict for at least the last 100 years. Responsible for hundreds of millions of deaths.
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Post by britsabroad on Jul 30, 2014 11:25:55 GMT
Another thing that continues not to be mentioned in the media is how HAMAS was actually created by the Israeli secret service, Mossad. Israel never has any intention of peace. They need the constant Hamas rockets (fireworks) to justify the continued genocide and land theft. Another UN school bombed - 43 dead. Zionists run the world and have been behind every major conflict for at least the last 100 years. Responsible for hundreds of millions of deaths. I'll bite. How exactly were Zionists responsible for World War 2? Or do you mean Hitler started it because he hated them so much?
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Jul 30, 2014 11:42:41 GMT
Did you watch the Jon Snow video I posted? Are you calling Jon Snow a liar too? You really don't get it do you? I'm doing a 'star killer'. I'm mocking him . I'm mocking his mistrust of the media as I have never doubted news reports from the area. Now I'm going to mock you too for thinking that I thought Jon snow was a liar. " you just don't get it ,do you ?" One dead child's picture is as bad as the next. You're warped..very warped. Both of you infact. I wouldn't say warped..I'd say we have a better understanding of the way the world is governed. It's you that doesn't get it mumf..and for an intelligent man like yourself that's disappointing.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2014 11:46:19 GMT
Just explain to me what it is I don't get exactly.
Your argument is one sided .
Tell me where I'm going wrong.
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Post by followyoudown on Jul 30, 2014 13:40:42 GMT
Another thing that continues not to be mentioned in the media is how HAMAS was actually created by the Israeli secret service, Mossad. Israel never has any intention of peace. They need the constant Hamas rockets (fireworks) to justify the continued genocide and land theft. Another UN school bombed - 43 dead. Zionists run the world and have been behind every major conflict for at least the last 100 years. Responsible for hundreds of millions of deaths. Hamas was "created" as an alternative to the PLO who were engaged in a terror campaign against Israel, it's well documented and known so why are you pretending otherwise ? They were not created to attack Israel to suggest otherwise is on a par with your Twin Towers theories. You seem vehmantly against this conflict and continue to criticise the UK government for doing nothing yet when the UK government led the action that saved many thousands of lives in Libya you mocked that as being all about the oil. In my opinion, you can draw a line on this back to Syria, the decision by the west to do nothing there has emboldened nut jobs like Putin and Netanyahu to advance on the paths they have chosen with the knowledge the world will let them get on with it.
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Post by santy on Jul 30, 2014 13:59:45 GMT
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Post by starkiller on Jul 30, 2014 14:38:08 GMT
Another thing that continues not to be mentioned in the media is how HAMAS was actually created by the Israeli secret service, Mossad. Israel never has any intention of peace. They need the constant Hamas rockets (fireworks) to justify the continued genocide and land theft. Another UN school bombed - 43 dead. Zionists run the world and have been behind every major conflict for at least the last 100 years. Responsible for hundreds of millions of deaths. Hamas was "created" as an alternative to the PLO who were engaged in a terror campaign against Israel, it's well documented and known so why are you pretending otherwise ? They were not created to attack Israel to suggest otherwise is on a par with your Twin Towers theories. You seem vehmantly against this conflict and continue to criticise the UK government for doing nothing yet when the UK government led the action that saved many thousands of lives in Libya you mocked that as being all about the oil. In my opinion, you can draw a line on this back to Syria, the decision by the west to do nothing there has emboldened nut jobs like Putin and Netanyahu to advance on the paths they have chosen with the knowledge the world will let them get on with it. So you admit Hamas has an Israeli origin yet cannot comprehend these organisations are created in knowledge they can be used again further down the line? You insult the intelligence of the masterminds behind a long term agenda. Or is all secret service activity done off the cuff? Al-Qaeda is another one. Call me paranoid and I'll call you naive, at best. Answer me this, is Hamas stopping the Israeli agenda, or is it actually helping it? If it walks like a duck ... The smoke and mirrors of the ”news" we are given has led to many folk actually blinded to the obvious right in front of their eyes.
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Post by starkiller on Jul 30, 2014 14:52:08 GMT
Another thing that continues not to be mentioned in the media is how HAMAS was actually created by the Israeli secret service, Mossad. Israel never has any intention of peace. They need the constant Hamas rockets (fireworks) to justify the continued genocide and land theft. Another UN school bombed - 43 dead. Zionists run the world and have been behind every major conflict for at least the last 100 years. Responsible for hundreds of millions of deaths. I'll bite. How exactly were Zionists responsible for World War 2? Or do you mean Hitler started it because he hated them so much? They funded both sides, just for a start ...
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2014 14:57:02 GMT
Another thing that continues not to be mentioned in the media is how HAMAS was actually created by the Israeli secret service, Mossad. Israel never has any intention of peace. They need the constant Hamas rockets (fireworks) to justify the continued genocide and land theft. Another UN school bombed - 43 dead. Zionists run the world and have been behind every major conflict for at least the last 100 years. Responsible for hundreds of millions of deaths. i blame all the fucking lizard people myself!
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