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Post by partickpotter on Jul 25, 2014 5:55:46 GMT
Again...you really don't get it. This does appear to be a standard argument for someone who is in disagreement with you Huddy ....it's always you don't get it ....perhaps some of us do ...and it's you who are failing to " get it " The problem is, of course, there is rarely a simple truth. Most arguments fall down because folk are arguing different but valid points. Apples and Oranges. And, of course, when you start digging around in what is behind the current crisis you find a murky mess. Bad things are everywhere. There are plenty of opposed positions people can justify with rationale (albeit not always strongly!). But that isn't to say simple truths do not exist - and when you find one, accept it for what it is. And one can be found in the current situation. The killing of civilians is wrong. The killing of children morally repugnant.Israel's policy of disproportionate response in Gaza directly leads to the slaughter of innocents. It really is that simple - and that wrong.
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Post by partickpotter on Jul 25, 2014 6:11:38 GMT
Talking of differing opinion here is what one writer has to say in support of Israel's military policy; Israel's critics don't want a proportionate response in Gaza. They want no response at all. Which includes this in its justification; I assure you it's not satire. Actually it probably needs Freud to analyse it noting the author, former Labour Party MP and GMB trade union official now Telegraph columnist Dan Hodges, is the son of Glenda Jackson. You can't help feeling he's suffering from some form of Oedipus Complex. It's like he wrote it simply to annoy mummy! But, you folks make your own minds up.
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Post by britsabroad on Jul 25, 2014 6:17:15 GMT
This does appear to be a standard argument for someone who is in disagreement with you Huddy ....it's always you don't get it ....perhaps some of us do ...and it's you who are failing to " get it " But that isn't to say simple truths do not exist - and when you find one, accept it for what it is. And one can be found in the current situation. The killing of civilians is wrong. The killing of children morally repugnant.Israel's policy of disproportionate response in Gaza directly leads to the slaughter of innocents. It really is that simple - and that wrong. Hamas's indiscriminate rocket attacks also directly lead to the slaughter of innocents. The ONLY difference between the two sides at this point is that Israel has bigger guns. Pretending like this is evil Zionist Israel picking on innocent little Gaza is both wrong and only serves to back Israel even further into a corner, from which they will fight even more aggressively.
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Post by britsabroad on Jul 25, 2014 6:17:47 GMT
This does appear to be a standard argument for someone who is in disagreement with you Huddy ....it's always you don't get it ....perhaps some of us do ...and it's you who are failing to " get it " But that isn't to say simple truths do not exist - and when you find one, accept it for what it is. And one can be found in the current situation. The killing of civilians is wrong. The killing of children morally repugnant.Israel's policy of disproportionate response in Gaza directly leads to the slaughter of innocents. It really is that simple - and that wrong. Hamas's indiscriminate rocket attacks also directly lead to the slaughter of innocents. The ONLY difference between the two sides at this point is that Israel has bigger guns. Pretending like this is evil Zionist Israel picking on innocent little Gaza is both wrong and only serves to back Israel even further into a corner, from which they will fight even more aggressively.
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Post by ColonelMustard on Jul 25, 2014 7:32:03 GMT
But that isn't to say simple truths do not exist - and when you find one, accept it for what it is. And one can be found in the current situation. The killing of civilians is wrong. The killing of children morally repugnant.Israel's policy of disproportionate response in Gaza directly leads to the slaughter of innocents. It really is that simple - and that wrong. Hamas's indiscriminate rocket attacks also directly lead to the slaughter of innocents. The ONLY difference between the two sides at this point is that Israel has bigger guns. Pretending like this is evil Zionist Israel picking on innocent little Gaza is both wrong and only serves to back Israel even further into a corner, from which they will fight even more aggressively. while I don't necesarily agree, in this light, we can at least see some moral and diplomatic equivalence and condemn both sides as 'terrorists' for targeting civilian population
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Post by partickpotter on Jul 25, 2014 7:38:42 GMT
But that isn't to say simple truths do not exist - and when you find one, accept it for what it is. And one can be found in the current situation. The killing of civilians is wrong. The killing of children morally repugnant.Israel's policy of disproportionate response in Gaza directly leads to the slaughter of innocents. It really is that simple - and that wrong. Hamas's indiscriminate rocket attacks also directly lead to the slaughter of innocents. The ONLY difference between the two sides at this point is that Israel has bigger guns. Pretending like this is evil Zionist Israel picking on innocent little Gaza is both wrong and only serves to back Israel even further into a corner, from which they will fight even more aggressively. I think that you've demonstrated my point - there is bad all over the place and sadly little good; particularly among the leadership of both sides. This makes it hard to identify anything you can consider absolute and creates teh sort of asymetric arguments you see in the media and also on this thread. But, in regards killing of civilians; consider this... Number of Israeli Civilians killed: 2 Number of Palestinian Civilians killed: 775 including 160 children And think again about that expression "slaughter of innocents". BTW - what's with this "evil Zionist" comment. Why say that? It's a stupid (and unjustified) thing to say - at least in response to what I've written.
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Post by heavysoul on Jul 25, 2014 8:19:59 GMT
But that isn't to say simple truths do not exist - and when you find one, accept it for what it is. And one can be found in the current situation. The killing of civilians is wrong. The killing of children morally repugnant.Israel's policy of disproportionate response in Gaza directly leads to the slaughter of innocents. It really is that simple - and that wrong. Hamas's indiscriminate rocket attacks also directly lead to the slaughter of innocents. The ONLY difference between the two sides at this point is that Israel has bigger guns. Pretending like this is evil Zionist Israel picking on innocent little Gaza is both wrong and only serves to back Israel even further into a corner, from which they will fight even more aggressively. Very naive comment ! There is no defence of Israel's current action in Gaza the facts speak for themselves.! You could also say by by backing the Palestinians into a corner will make them fight more aggressively.
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Post by starkiller on Jul 25, 2014 8:28:02 GMT
But that isn't to say simple truths do not exist - and when you find one, accept it for what it is. And one can be found in the current situation. The killing of civilians is wrong. The killing of children morally repugnant.Israel's policy of disproportionate response in Gaza directly leads to the slaughter of innocents. It really is that simple - and that wrong. Hamas's indiscriminate rocket attacks also directly lead to the slaughter of innocents. The ONLY difference between the two sides at this point is that Israel has bigger guns. Pretending like this is evil Zionist Israel picking on innocent little Gaza is both wrong and only serves to back Israel even further into a corner, from which they will fight even more aggressively. Look at a map and tell me who is backed into a corner. Where is Mr Camoron's frown of concern for the massacre of Palestinian children and his fake statesman act? This country is not just supportive of Zionists but shanefully under the control of them. Not one world leader steps in. The silence is deafening ...
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2014 8:49:11 GMT
Hamas's indiscriminate rocket attacks also directly lead to the slaughter of innocents. The ONLY difference between the two sides at this point is that Israel has bigger guns. Pretending like this is evil Zionist Israel picking on innocent little Gaza is both wrong and only serves to back Israel even further into a corner, from which they will fight even more aggressively. Very naive comment ! There is no defence of Israel's current action in Gaza the facts speak for themselves.! You could also say by by backing the Palestinians into a corner will make them fight more aggressively. The nativity and irony ward in this debate is yours. You are right about there being no defence for Israels actions , however the concept of palestininians fighting even more aggressively is a complete non runner. They have neither the man power or resourses to do so. The gulf between the two so wide that it isn't worth a moments reflection. Unless you consider catapults or spears , then the Palestininans are not capable of much else , but if they did have that weaponry, then rest assured that the balance of equilibrium would be restored in terms on innocent deaths. The killing of innocent civilians or the targeting of such is no new concept . It was used very successfully by Bomber Harris in the campaign over Dresden where 25000 were wiped out in one night. There was also the two nuclear bombs over Japan too. We can all be deeply dismayed by Israels actions , but in the grand scheme of things , it's nothing that one would not expect in such heavily populated areas. The facts as you say ..."speak for themselves"
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Jul 25, 2014 8:59:18 GMT
Again...you really don't get it. This does appear to be a standard argument for someone who is in disagreement with you Huddy ....it's always you don't get it ....perhaps some of us do ...and it's you who are failing to " get it " Perhaps you'd care to tell me what it is I don't get?
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Post by starkiller on Jul 25, 2014 10:20:36 GMT
The UK Government is complicit in this massacre - condoning and encouraging the slaughter of children by saying nothing. Just like Zionist puppets Kerry and (Mr Peace Prize) Obama.
They have had every opportunity to speak out against this outrage. They were falling over themselves to do their bullshit statesman act for the cameras about the Malaysian plane.
This country is shamefully sold out to Zionists.
People are desensitised to the heartbreak of this real-life mass snuff movie.
More children will be slaughtered today and the only defence the Palestinians really have is to protest on the streets against being missiled.
Jon Snow's report from last night.
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Post by britsabroad on Jul 25, 2014 10:51:13 GMT
Hamas's indiscriminate rocket attacks also directly lead to the slaughter of innocents. The ONLY difference between the two sides at this point is that Israel has bigger guns. Pretending like this is evil Zionist Israel picking on innocent little Gaza is both wrong and only serves to back Israel even further into a corner, from which they will fight even more aggressively. I think that you've demonstrated my point - there is bad all over the place and sadly little good; particularly among the leadership of both sides. This makes it hard to identify anything you can consider absolute and creates teh sort of asymetric arguments you see in the media and also on this thread. But, in regards killing of civilians; consider this... Number of Israeli Civilians killed: 2 Number of Palestinian Civilians killed: 775 including 160 children And think again about that expression "slaughter of innocents". BTW - what's with this "evil Zionist" comment. Why say that? It's a stupid (and unjustified) thing to say - at least in response to what I've written. The evil Zionist comment is in relation to others in this thread and the general media, not your post.
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Post by britsabroad on Jul 25, 2014 11:00:00 GMT
Hamas's indiscriminate rocket attacks also directly lead to the slaughter of innocents. The ONLY difference between the two sides at this point is that Israel has bigger guns. Pretending like this is evil Zionist Israel picking on innocent little Gaza is both wrong and only serves to back Israel even further into a corner, from which they will fight even more aggressively. Look at a map and tell me who is backed into a corner. You could argue either side. From the Palestinian point of view theyre having what they think is their land taken away, and want to eradicate Israel entirely. From the Israeli point of view this is the only home the Jewish people have and they will defend it as vigorously as they can. I dont expect the sort of media you get your information from is interested in looking at both sides of any situation though.
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Post by heavysoul on Jul 25, 2014 11:07:12 GMT
Very naive comment ! There is no defence of Israel's current action in Gaza the facts speak for themselves.! You could also say by by backing the Palestinians into a corner will make them fight more aggressively. The nativity and irony ward in this debate is yours. You are right about there being no defence for Israels actions , however the concept of palestininians fighting even more aggressively is a complete non runner. They have neither the man power or resourses to do so. The gulf between the two so wide that it isn't worth a moments reflection. Unless you consider catapults or spears , then the Palestininans are not capable of much else , but if they did have that weaponry, then rest assured that the balance of equilibrium would be restored in terms on innocent deaths. The killing of innocent civilians or the targeting of such is no new concept . It was used very successfully by Bomber Harris in the campaign over Dresden where 25000 were wiped out in one night. There was also the two nuclear bombs over Japan too. We can all be deeply dismayed by Israels actions , but in the grand scheme of things , it's nothing that one would not expect in such heavily populated areas. The facts as you say ..."speak for themselves" Maybe if Hamas had the capability to attack civilians they would? But they don't ! And I would also say that was wrong. You cannot compare the 2nd world war to this war! It is no where near the same level. Palestinians do not have the fire power to take on the Israelis. there is an embargo in place by the Israelis do you not remember a few months ago when a Turkish ship tried to deliver supplies and was intercepted by the Israeli navy and boarded? There is a strangle hold on Gaza and West Bank.
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Post by starkiller on Jul 25, 2014 13:59:54 GMT
Next time our overlords stand stern-faced at a microphone, using the words "humanitarian crisis" to justify their next invasion and sacrifice of lives please remember this current situation in Palestine.
And please see our leaders for what they are - deeply evil, blackhearted warmongering cowards, with no humanity or empathy, there to serve the war machine and sell the idea to the public.
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Post by britsabroad on Jul 25, 2014 14:27:12 GMT
The nativity and irony ward in this debate is yours. You are right about there being no defence for Israels actions , however the concept of palestininians fighting even more aggressively is a complete non runner. They have neither the man power or resourses to do so. The gulf between the two so wide that it isn't worth a moments reflection. Unless you consider catapults or spears , then the Palestininans are not capable of much else , but if they did have that weaponry, then rest assured that the balance of equilibrium would be restored in terms on innocent deaths. The killing of innocent civilians or the targeting of such is no new concept . It was used very successfully by Bomber Harris in the campaign over Dresden where 25000 were wiped out in one night. There was also the two nuclear bombs over Japan too. We can all be deeply dismayed by Israels actions , but in the grand scheme of things , it's nothing that one would not expect in such heavily populated areas. The facts as you say ..."speak for themselves" Maybe if Hamas had the capability to attack civilians they would? But they don't ! And I would also say that was wrong. You cannot compare the 2nd world war to this war! It is no where near the same level. Palestinians do not have the fire power to take on the Israelis. there is an embargo in place by the Israelis do you not remember a few months ago when a Turkish ship tried to deliver supplies and was intercepted by the Israeli navy and boarded? There is a strangle hold on Gaza and West Bank. Yes they do. They may not be very good at it, but they try their very best. I don't think you really understand why Israel are doing what they're doing. Hamas indiscriminately fire rockets at anyone, military or otherwise. They also dig tunnels into Israel and kidnap/kill IDF soldiers and civilians. Israel are fully justified in attacking Hamas. What they're not justified in is the extent to which they're doing it.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2014 14:32:44 GMT
Next time our overlords stand stern-faced at a microphone, using the words "humanitarian crisis" to justify their next invasion and sacrifice of lives please remember this current situation in Palestine. And please see our leaders for what they are - deeply evil, blackhearted warmongering cowards, with no humanity or empathy, there to serve the war machine and sell the idea to the public. Next time our overlords stand stern-faced at a microphone , using the words ""humanitarian crisis " to justify the invasion of Isis or some other ragbag gang of terrorists like that seen in Iraq I hope that you think to yourself , " fuck em..fuck the lot of them ...serves the evil little shits right , they're killing their own people and if the west intervene then I'll be angry and warped as usual"' And then we will see what this latest gang of fuzzy terrorist is - deeply evil , black hearted warmongering cowards ,with no humanity or empathy , there to serve the fuzzy mentality. A "fuzzy" is any fucker who is prepared to bear arms at the command of his fellow tribesman or religious leader and kill or maim his own people. A devious treacherous little bastuurd who dresses how he pleases and flouts the rules of the Geneva Convention as a matter of course. Something akin to those Muslim shitbags who have left these shores to take part in terrorist activity abroad. You should have joined them Starkiller....instead of fucking about on here extolling the virtues of such shit you could have seen real action and shot some American soldier serving his country. Yipeeeeeeee that's what you'd like isn't it.... Kill the west ....they're the evil ones. You've just fucking said so.! Mumf
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Post by starkiller on Jul 25, 2014 15:31:24 GMT
Next time our overlords stand stern-faced at a microphone, using the words "humanitarian crisis" to justify their next invasion and sacrifice of lives please remember this current situation in Palestine. And please see our leaders for what they are - deeply evil, blackhearted warmongering cowards, with no humanity or empathy, there to serve the war machine and sell the idea to the public. Next time our overlords stand stern-faced at a microphone , using the words ""humanitarian crisis " to justify the invasion of Isis or some other ragbag gang of terrorists like that seen in Iraq I hope that you think to yourself , " fuck em..fuck the lot of them ...serves the evil little shits right , they're killing their own people and if the west intervene then I'll be angry and warped as usual"' And then we will see what this latest gang of fuzzy terrorist is - deeply evil , black hearted warmongering cowards ,with no humanity or empathy , there to serve the fuzzy mentality. A "fuzzy" is any fucker who is prepared to bear arms at the command of his fellow tribesman or religious leader and kill or maim his own people. A devious treacherous little bastuurd who dresses how he pleases and flouts the rules of the Geneva Convention as a matter of course. Something akin to those Muslim shitbags who have left these shores to take part in terrorist activity abroad. You should have joined them Starkiller....instead of fucking about on here extolling the virtues of such shit you could have seen real action and shot some American soldier serving his country. Yipeeeeeeee that's what you'd like isn't it.... Kill the west ....they're the evil ones. You've just fucking said so.! Mumf You're talking like a Sun comment again. Decades of evidence shows they create or infiltrate their own enemies through secret services to keep the war machine going. And there's plenty who'll join these groups. If you haven't worked it out yet they positively need enemies to keep the Orwellian endless wars going and to maintain the system we have. Worse than extremists are extremists that are manufactured. I provided plenty to read about on terms of secret service links to recent "terrorist” incidents, not from nutcase conspiracy sites but daily newspapers. And decades of puppet leaders imposed on the people of the middle east, Africa, etc by the west. Have a look at that. The West are not the evil ones but their fucking Governments certainly are, in fact they are the criminally insane in a suit. I expect you still believe the childhood fairytale that they're looking after you. As for the Geneva convention, that you continue mention. Don't make laugh. Have a look a the deformed kids in Iraq as a result of US use of banned depleted uranium weapons. I also expect you think the rape, sexual abuse and torture of women and children is allowed under this convention. Oh, it wasn't mentioned on the impartial BBC, was it? And you still have no answer to the silence of our loving compassionate leaders in the face of the worst man made humanitarian crisis since the last time we invaded and blew the shit out of innocent civilians? I expect you think those kids with limbs blown off or their insides hanging out are going to travel over and blow you up. These are people that would want to grow up and raise a family in peace, like anybody else, given half a chance. Destroy the war machine and we might be closer to a better world...
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Post by britsabroad on Jul 25, 2014 16:15:08 GMT
Next time our overlords stand stern-faced at a microphone, using the words "humanitarian crisis" to justify their next invasion and sacrifice of lives please remember this current situation in Palestine. And please see our leaders for what they are - deeply evil, blackhearted warmongering cowards, with no humanity or empathy, there to serve the war machine and sell the idea to the public. You should have joined them Starkiller....instead of fucking about on here extolling the virtues of such shit you could have seen real action and shot some American soldier serving his country. Yipeeeeeeee that's what you'd like isn't it.... Kill the west ....they're the evil ones. You've just fucking said so.! Mumf Don't give the security services any more reason to keep an eye on him with posts like that I would be astounded if he's not on some watch list somewhere by now. He fucking should be.
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Post by starkiller on Jul 25, 2014 16:54:44 GMT
You should have joined them Starkiller....instead of fucking about on here extolling the virtues of such shit you could have seen real action and shot some American soldier serving his country. Yipeeeeeeee that's what you'd like isn't it.... Kill the west ....they're the evil ones. You've just fucking said so.! Mumf Don't give the security services any more reason to keep an eye on him with posts like that I would be astounded if he's not on some watch list somewhere by now. He fucking should be. Yes. Having anti-war ideas in this day and age is probably enough to have committed "thought-crime."
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Post by elsidibe on Jul 25, 2014 17:07:15 GMT
You should have joined them Starkiller....instead of fucking about on here extolling the virtues of such shit you could have seen real action and shot some American soldier serving his country. Yipeeeeeeee that's what you'd like isn't it.... Kill the west ....they're the evil ones. You've just fucking said so.! Mumf Don't give the security services any more reason to keep an eye on him with posts like that I would be astounded if he's not on some watch list somewhere by now. He fucking should be. Just out of interest why, in a democracy, would you advocate monitoring people simply because they have views that don't align with yours? Or are you anti-democracy?
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Post by britsabroad on Jul 25, 2014 17:12:44 GMT
Don't give the security services any more reason to keep an eye on him with posts like that I would be astounded if he's not on some watch list somewhere by now. He fucking should be. Just out of interest why, in a democracy, would you advocate monitoring people simply because they have views that don't align with yours? Or are you anti-democracy? There is having different views, and there is having dangerous views.
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Post by The Drunken Communist on Jul 25, 2014 17:24:28 GMT
There is having different views, and there is having dangerous views. Believing war is bad, & thinking that people being slaughtered so that their land can be illegally taken over, are dangerous views? It's no wonder you're firmly on Israel's side.
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Post by elsidibe on Jul 25, 2014 17:26:40 GMT
Just out of interest why, in a democracy, would you advocate monitoring people simply because they have views that don't align with yours? Or are you anti-democracy? There is having different views, and there is having dangerous views. That's exactly what flat-earth types used to say in the middle ages.
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Jul 25, 2014 17:28:26 GMT
Just out of interest why, in a democracy, would you advocate monitoring people simply because they have views that don't align with yours? Or are you anti-democracy? There is having different views, and there is having dangerous views. And none more dangerous than your narrow minded ones.
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Post by kbillyh on Jul 25, 2014 21:44:47 GMT
You should have joined them Starkiller....instead of fucking about on here extolling the virtues of such shit you could have seen real action and shot some American soldier serving his country. Yipeeeeeeee that's what you'd like isn't it.... Kill the west ....they're the evil ones. You've just fucking said so.! Mumf Don't give the security services any more reason to keep an eye on him with posts like that I would be astounded if he's not on some watch list somewhere by now. He fucking should be. Prize fucking tools you pair.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2014 22:25:59 GMT
Don't give the security services any more reason to keep an eye on him with posts like that I would be astounded if he's not on some watch list somewhere by now. He fucking should be. Prize fucking tools you pair. For a minute there I thought you were referring to the two 16 year old Oldham girls who flew out of Manchester to marry Jihadists for the cause.... Tens of thousands of pounds later they have been located posing with a Kalashnikov rifle...(At the taxpayers expense of course) Apparently its the favourite tool of war... mumf
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Post by britsabroad on Jul 26, 2014 2:07:36 GMT
There is having different views, and there is having dangerous views. Believing war is bad, & thinking that people being slaughtered so that their land can be illegally taken over, are dangerous views? It's no wonder you're firmly on Israel's side. I think most normal people think war and slaughter of innocent people is bad. I'm not on either side. I personally think the Israelis are a dangerous bunch of bastards with the world's largest chip on their shoulder. But I can look at the Gaza situation from their eyes as well as from the Palestinians. Its a dangerous view when you hold the same view no matter what the occasion or what the reason. It could be the Gaza situation or the inflated price of chocolate bars, in certain posters eyes its all the fault of the establishment. They are evil and need to be brought down, period. When youre smart enough to run with an idea someone's planted in your head but not smart enough to question it, thats when it becomes dangerous.
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Post by partickpotter on Jul 26, 2014 8:07:28 GMT
This week's R4 Moral Maze, Just War and Gaza, is well worth listening to. My take from the program is the "moral" argument sort of distilled itself down to this conundrum; Hamas seek to kill civilians through indiscriminate rocket fire, only they aren't very good at it. Ie they don't kill many people Israel seek to avoid killing civilians through targeted strikes, only they also aren't very good at it. Ie they kill lots of people. A couple of the participants (no surprise Melanie Phillips being one) felt this showed that Israel were on the moral high ground and that the scale of deaths wasn't relevant. The other two participants didn't agree; you can't separate morality from outcome. I'm with this last view. I thought one closing comment from one contributor was interesting; the leadership of both sides will be very happy with the outcome of this latest episode; Hamas in that they will got lots of positive PR, Israel because they have again shown to the world they won't be pushed around. But the citizens of their countries won't be so happy - they, as ever, carry the can.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2014 8:21:38 GMT
This week's R4 Moral Maze, Just War and Gaza, is well worth listening to. My take from the program is the "moral" argument sort of distilled itself down to this conundrum; Hamas seek to kill civilians through indiscriminate rocket fire, only they aren't very good at it. Ie they don't kill many people Israel seek to avoid killing civilians through targeted strikes, only they also aren't very good at it. Ie they kill lots of people. A couple of the participants (no surprise Melanie Phillips being one) felt this showed that Israel were on the moral high ground and that the scale of deaths wasn't relevant. The other two participants didn't agree; you can't separate morality from outcome. I'm with this last view. I thought one closing comment from one contributor was interesting; the leadership of both sides will be very happy with the outcome of this latest episode; Hamas in that they will got lots of positive PR, Israel because they have again shown to the world they won't be pushed around. But the citizens of their countries won't be so happy - they, as ever, carry the can. A very good and honest assessment of the situation. I'm in neither camp but the thing that tips the scales is the proportionate force for me. I have no doubt whatsoever that if Hamas had the same weaponry then we would be facing the same situation as we are now.
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