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Post by stokemanusa on Jun 17, 2014 19:34:03 GMT
In your eyes. Huth's knees are gone, I don't see him starting unless he goes on a terminator rehab stint in the Austrian mountains. I can see Wilson start but give it a week for him to fuck it up and the Oatcake slag him off and with Bardsley possibly starting at RB. You got Geoff and Muni and Wilson to choose from... Lescott? naw I'd be surprised if we landed him. Hughes will mostly use Wilson and Geoff I reckon with Muni a third option. He's been training this summer already. I don't think Wilson will be starting, I think it'll be Huth or Lescott. Wilson and Cameron very similar-dodgy. Muni is better than the both of them, by far. I don't disagree with this but I am still iffy on Huth's knee, perhaps this is why there is all this Lescott talk? Muni is god, my favorite player and I think he's the future with a Ryan type CB at his side. I think Geoff in a CB role is better than wilson IMO, but dodgy yes at times those two look like they have their feet tied but playing against a Lukaku or Van Persie anyone would.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Jun 17, 2014 19:37:44 GMT
If Cameron plays regularly at centre back next season and regularly plays well, I'm equally convinced that he won't get criticised.
I think it's pretty rare for players to be playing well regularly but for them to still get criticised - maybe Whelan is the exception.
I remember at the start of last season, a lot of people were critical of Cameron at right back, then he went through a good run of games there and many of the people who had been criticising him, held their hands up and said maybe they'd actually got it wrong, just a pity that he went back to not being very good there in the second half of the season.
Well for not playing your main position most of the season I thought he did better than expected and excelled at times especially in the first half of the season. In the second half of the season the fitness level dropped off and it showed with decision making. With Bardsley as either cover or a another starter to rotate at RB. I don't stoke will have a problem with cover at the back like we had with Wilko and shotton coming in to attempt to play the modern game. I think Whelan got more praise than stick this season than any other infact, I praised him so much it was weird. It was the style that suited him unlike hoofball. We had a whelan is god thread after everymatch by the usual suspects and for the most part it was due. We equaly had the Geoff cameron or Wilson is at fault with Walters in there aswell. So I don't know where your getting that from. Infact a few of our hidden gems that made our season this year got more stick, ie Arnie and Oussama, Wilson, Geoff, Ireland/Adam that combo for most of the season at different times just some more than others... Geoff though was easily singled out as was Wilson for being defensive players with more on their plate. There is this idea that the second half of the season Geoff completely disappeared, he had a few great games aswell in the second half of the season and was equally bad at times but for playing every game at RB as a CB by trade it was a commendable defensive performance by anyone in this league.
Whelan was MOTM in a game last season yet that didn't stop one of his regular haters STARTING a thread saying how crap he was in the game - that's where I'm getting that from.
However in the main I don't think players are getting too much criticism when they play well, Cameron and Wilson included.
When they don't play well they do get criticised of course and Cameron had a lot of games last season where he didn't play well, ergo he received quite a lot of criticism.
That's not an attack on the guy, I've never met him and don't feel any need to attack him, it's just a fact, plain and simple.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Jun 17, 2014 19:38:36 GMT
He's been training this summer already. I don't think Wilson will be starting, I think it'll be Huth or Lescott. Wilson and Cameron very similar-dodgy. Muni is better than the both of them, by far. I don't disagree with this but I am still iffy on Huth's knee, perhaps this is why there is all this Lescott talk? Muni is god, my favorite player and I think he's the future with a Ryan type CB at his side. I think Geoff in a CB role is better than wilson IMO, but dodgy yes at times those two look like they have their feet tied but playing against a Lukaku or Van Persie anyone would. I think so re Lescott. I definitely don't trust Wilson at centre half and Cameron didn't alleviate my fears I have of him there last night. I can see one of Huth, Cameron or Wilson being sold tbh.
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Post by stokemanusa on Jun 17, 2014 19:39:56 GMT
I don't disagree with this but I am still iffy on Huth's knee, perhaps this is why there is all this Lescott talk? Muni is god, my favorite player and I think he's the future with a Ryan type CB at his side. I think Geoff in a CB role is better than wilson IMO, but dodgy yes at times those two look like they have their feet tied but playing against a Lukaku or Van Persie anyone would. I think so re Lescott. I definitely don't trust Wilson at centre half and Cameron didn't alleviate my fears I have of him there last night. I can see one of Huth, Cameron or Wilson being sold tbh. Really? heh. Well see, I think it will be Huth first then a 50/50 between geoff and marc.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Jun 17, 2014 19:43:44 GMT
I think so re Lescott. I definitely don't trust Wilson at centre half and Cameron didn't alleviate my fears I have of him there last night. I can see one of Huth, Cameron or Wilson being sold tbh. Really? heh. Well see, I think it will be Huth first then a 50/50 between geoff and marc. I just don't see the evidence for Hughes playing Cameron at centre back. Maybe that's why he's signed Bardsley so Cameron can shift inside? We shall see I guess.
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Post by thedeadlyshart on Jun 17, 2014 19:49:12 GMT
I don't disagree with this but I am still iffy on Huth's knee, perhaps this is why there is all this Lescott talk? Muni is god, my favorite player and I think he's the future with a Ryan type CB at his side. I think Geoff in a CB role is better than wilson IMO, but dodgy yes at times those two look like they have their feet tied but playing against a Lukaku or Van Persie anyone would. I think so re Lescott. I definitely don't trust Wilson at centre half and Cameron didn't alleviate my fears I have of him there last night. I can see one of Huth, Cameron or Wilson being sold tbh. of those three I think Cameron would get us the most money, especially if he has two more decent games against Portugal and Germany. But that would really suck if Bardsley then turns out to be a lemon.
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Post by stokemanusa on Jun 17, 2014 19:50:11 GMT
Well for not playing your main position most of the season I thought he did better than expected and excelled at times especially in the first half of the season. In the second half of the season the fitness level dropped off and it showed with decision making. With Bardsley as either cover or a another starter to rotate at RB. I don't stoke will have a problem with cover at the back like we had with Wilko and shotton coming in to attempt to play the modern game. I think Whelan got more praise than stick this season than any other infact, I praised him so much it was weird. It was the style that suited him unlike hoofball. We had a whelan is god thread after everymatch by the usual suspects and for the most part it was due. We equaly had the Geoff cameron or Wilson is at fault with Walters in there aswell. So I don't know where your getting that from. Infact a few of our hidden gems that made our season this year got more stick, ie Arnie and Oussama, Wilson, Geoff, Ireland/Adam that combo for most of the season at different times just some more than others... Geoff though was easily singled out as was Wilson for being defensive players with more on their plate. There is this idea that the second half of the season Geoff completely disappeared, he had a few great games aswell in the second half of the season and was equally bad at times but for playing every game at RB as a CB by trade it was a commendable defensive performance by anyone in this league.
Whelan was MOTM in a game last season yet that didn't stop one of his regular haters STARTING a thread saying how crap he was in the game - that's where I'm getting that from.
However in the main I don't think players are getting too much criticism when they play well, Cameron and Wilson included.
When they don't play well they do get criticised of course and Cameron had a lot of games last season where he didn't play well, ergo he received quite a lot of criticism.
That's not an attack on the guy, I've never met him and don't feel any need to attack him, it's just a fact, plain and simple.
Ohh christ, we had people blaming Cameron for goals he wasn't even near or never at fault for, infact Whelan was at fault for a couple that his lover boys just couldn't get past... You have to remember these are individuals opinions and there were many games where Whelan was bad aswell but those can't be criticized? There is no such thing on here with "unbaised" forum topics to say the least. Just witch hunts. I can remember several times when Muniesa had an amazing game, Geoff played well and there was not one forum topic started but there were always Whelan threads and that's a plain fact, even if he was sup-par people where calling for MoM... I started the muni thread instantly after his amazing stand-in for pieters... I've never met the lil spainard but thats pretty sad the usual posters took time to make a whelan thread and a usual walters sucks thread and just forgo the actual best performer that day. Muniesa, I'm not disagreeing with you, but I'm still waiting for the "Geoff Cameron will never start for Stoke" crowd to eat that humble pie... They never will, because they individually have an agenda and flock to others who go to that tune. I prefer to give credit where it is due.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Jun 17, 2014 19:53:47 GMT
I think so re Lescott. I definitely don't trust Wilson at centre half and Cameron didn't alleviate my fears I have of him there last night. I can see one of Huth, Cameron or Wilson being sold tbh. of those three I think Cameron would get us the most money, especially if he has two more decent games against Portugal and Germany. But that would really suck if Bardsley then turns out to be a lemon. I aren't sure, I think TP would pay 5+ million for Wilson, we wouldn't get that for Cameron would we?
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Post by stokemanusa on Jun 17, 2014 19:56:47 GMT
of those three I think Cameron would get us the most money, especially if he has two more decent games against Portugal and Germany. But that would really suck if Bardsley then turns out to be a lemon. I aren't sure, I think TP would pay 5+ million for Wilson, we wouldn't get that for Cameron would we? No way... 4 max if it were for both to a side in need at best, but who knows TP brought Geoff and Marc here he might be tempted...
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Post by thedeadlyshart on Jun 17, 2014 19:59:04 GMT
of those three I think Cameron would get us the most money, especially if he has two more decent games against Portugal and Germany. But that would really suck if Bardsley then turns out to be a lemon. I aren't sure, I think TP would pay 5+ million for Wilson, we wouldn't get that for Cameron would we? i don't know if we'd get 5 for either. But Sunderland put a couple million up for Cameron in January, so I could see a newly promoted team, or a MLS squad making an offer on him. If TP comes sniffing around for any of his former favorites I hope we make him over pay big time!
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Post by bayernoatcake on Jun 17, 2014 20:01:07 GMT
I aren't sure, I think TP would pay 5+ million for Wilson, we wouldn't get that for Cameron would we? No way... 4 max if it were for both to a side in need at best, but who knows TP brought Geoff and Marc here he might be tempted... He's already spent 6 million on Wilson effectively, I don't see why with a decent contract situation, a good age and much more experience he wouldn't again. Cameron a couple of years older but too should have added value to what we bought him for.
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Post by stokemanusa on Jun 17, 2014 20:02:43 GMT
No way... 4 max if it were for both to a side in need at best, but who knows TP brought Geoff and Marc here he might be tempted... He's already spent 6 million on Wilson effectively, I don't see why with a decent contract situation, a good age and much more experience he wouldn't again. Cameron a couple of years older but too should have added value to what we bought him for. I think if he came for Walters there would be a Oatcake riot good and bad. lol
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Post by Gods on Jun 17, 2014 21:20:23 GMT
Yes I was. My supposition is that perhaps the Bardsley signing was impetuous, he came unexpectedly available and we snapped him up. I have no idea in practice if that was the case of course. What is your rationale as to why we signed him so soon after offering Wilko a new contract when we already had Cameron? It may well be better than mine and if it is I'll gladly take it on board!
I think the rationale that we only signed Bardsley because he suddenly became available unexpectedly doesn't make any sense.
As I already said, Hughes would have identified the positions that needed addressing ages ago, we would have been completely aware that Bardsley's contract was about to end at Sunderland and as Bayern has already said we tried to sign him in January, at a point when Cameron had apparently just had a blinding first half to the season.
The most logical conclusion is that Hughes signed Bardsley and gave Wilko a new contract because he doesn't see Cameron as first or second choice right back next season, doesn't mean I'm right but at the moment there isn't any other scenario that is more logical.
Wow, it never even occurred to me that Cameron might be behind both Bardsley and Wilko in the pecking order. Sheer, brain-dead madness but it would at least explain the sequence of events.
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Post by stokemanusa on Jun 17, 2014 21:34:53 GMT
I think the rationale that we only signed Bardsley because he suddenly became available unexpectedly doesn't make any sense.
As I already said, Hughes would have identified the positions that needed addressing ages ago, we would have been completely aware that Bardsley's contract was about to end at Sunderland and as Bayern has already said we tried to sign him in January, at a point when Cameron had apparently just had a blinding first half to the season.
The most logical conclusion is that Hughes signed Bardsley and gave Wilko a new contract because he doesn't see Cameron as first or second choice right back next season, doesn't mean I'm right but at the moment there isn't any other scenario that is more logical.
Wow, it never even occurred to me that Cameron might be behind both Bardsley and Wilko in the pecking order. Sheer, brain-dead madness but it would at least explain the sequence of events. He brought them in and gave wilko a contract so we can push for a Cup. Simples.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Jun 17, 2014 21:48:23 GMT
Wow, it never even occurred to me that Cameron might be behind both Bardsley and Wilko in the pecking order. Sheer, brain-dead madness but it would at least explain the sequence of events. He brought them in and gave wilko a contract so we can push for a Cup. Simples.
Really?
So Mark Hughes thinks I've got Bardsley and Cameron as regular first/second choices AND I've got Wilson and Shotton who can play there if it's really necessary, so let's give Wilko a new contract as well?
I-T- D-O-E-S-N-'-T- M-A-K-E- S-E-N-S-E.
If we had three specialist players for every position in the team we would need to be allowed a 33 man squad.
Do you not think the more logical suggestion would be that Cameron has been told he won't be first choice next season and he isn't happy about just being a back-up but Wilko is prepared to accept that role?
Just step back and think about it logically for a moment.
Maybe Hughes has just given Wilko a new contract for giggles but realistically he's not going to do that is he?
Either Cameron is hoping to play somewhere else in the team regularly or he's hoping to play somewhere else entirely, regularly and there's nothing wrong with wanting to do that.
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Post by Gods on Jun 17, 2014 21:56:14 GMT
He brought them in and gave wilko a contract so we can push for a Cup. Simples.
Really?
So Mark Hughes thinks I've got Bardsley and Cameron as regular first/second choices AND I've got Wilson and Shotton who can play there if it's really necessary, so let's give Wilko a new contract as well?
I-T- D-O-E-S-N-'-T- M-A-K-E- S-E-N-S-E.
If we had three specialist players for every position in the team we would need to be allowed a 33 man squad.
Do you not think the more logical suggestion would be that Cameron has been told he won't be first choice next season and he isn't happy about just being a back-up but Wilko is prepared to accept that role?
Just step back and think about it logically for a moment.
Maybe Hughes has just given Wilko a new contract for giggles but realistically he's not going to do that is he?
Either Cameron is hoping to play somewhere else in the team regularly or he's hoping to play somewhere else entirely, regularly and there's nothing wrong with wanting to do that.
Never mind what Cameron thinks, what do you think Hughes has planned for Cameron?
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Post by davejohnno1 on Jun 17, 2014 22:03:29 GMT
Really?
So Mark Hughes thinks I've got Bardsley and Cameron as regular first/second choices AND I've got Wilson and Shotton who can play there if it's really necessary, so let's give Wilko a new contract as well?
I-T- D-O-E-S-N-'-T- M-A-K-E- S-E-N-S-E.
If we had three specialist players for every position in the team we would need to be allowed a 33 man squad.
Do you not think the more logical suggestion would be that Cameron has been told he won't be first choice next season and he isn't happy about just being a back-up but Wilko is prepared to accept that role?
Just step back and think about it logically for a moment.
Maybe Hughes has just given Wilko a new contract for giggles but realistically he's not going to do that is he?
Either Cameron is hoping to play somewhere else in the team regularly or he's hoping to play somewhere else entirely, regularly and there's nothing wrong with wanting to do that.
Never mind what Cameron thinks, what do you think Hughes has planned for Cameron? Hopefully a spell on the bench. He's a fine athlete but he's a shit footballer. He won't be first choice in any position come the start of the season so he will have to fight his way into the reckoning somehow. If Bardsley remains injury free I don't fancy his chances.
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Post by Gods on Jun 17, 2014 22:05:56 GMT
Never mind what Cameron thinks, what do you think Hughes has planned for Cameron? Hopefully a spell on the bench. He's a fine athlete but he's a shit footballer. He won't be first choice in any position come the start of the season so he will have to fight his way into the reckoning somehow. If Bardsley remains injury free I don't fancy his chances. Well according to Paul he is 3rd choice behind Bardlsey and Wilko so I would imagine he envisages a fate worse than a spell on the bench for him. BTW he is better than Bardsley.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Jun 17, 2014 22:06:16 GMT
Really?
So Mark Hughes thinks I've got Bardsley and Cameron as regular first/second choices AND I've got Wilson and Shotton who can play there if it's really necessary, so let's give Wilko a new contract as well?
I-T- D-O-E-S-N-'-T- M-A-K-E- S-E-N-S-E.
If we had three specialist players for every position in the team we would need to be allowed a 33 man squad.
Do you not think the more logical suggestion would be that Cameron has been told he won't be first choice next season and he isn't happy about just being a back-up but Wilko is prepared to accept that role?
Just step back and think about it logically for a moment.
Maybe Hughes has just given Wilko a new contract for giggles but realistically he's not going to do that is he?
Either Cameron is hoping to play somewhere else in the team regularly or he's hoping to play somewhere else entirely, regularly and there's nothing wrong with wanting to do that.
Never mind what Cameron thinks, what do you think Hughes has planned for Cameron?
Logic (based on the signing of Bardsley and the fact that he's just given a Wilko a brand new contract) would suggest that he is either expecting Cameron to leave or he believes that he will fit somewhere else into the team.
I could be wrong and he will end up playing a ton of games at right back next season but based on the evidence we've got at the moment, that doesn't seem like the logical conclusion to draw does it?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 17, 2014 22:07:13 GMT
Hopefully a spell on the bench. He's a fine athlete but he's a shit footballer. He won't be first choice in any position come the start of the season so he will have to fight his way into the reckoning somehow. If Bardsley remains injury free I don't fancy his chances. Well according to Paul he is 3rd choice behind Bardlsey and Wilko so I would imagine he envisages a fate worse than a spell on the bench for him. BTW he is better than Bardsley. And you're basing that purely on Bardsley being 'short and stocky'?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 17, 2014 22:10:04 GMT
If Hughes was perfectly happy with his first choice right back, he wouldn't have signed another experienced, well-remunerated specialist right back. He'd already have what, three available to him even discounting Shotton, and we're watching the pennies.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 17, 2014 22:26:52 GMT
If Hughes was perfectly happy with his first choice right back, he wouldn't have signed another experienced, well-remunerated specialist right back. He'd already have what, three available to him even discounting Shotton, and we're watching the pennies. Yes...Quite right you are too. I think Cameron is very good however but ultimately trust Mark Hughes' judgement. This debate is specifically to do with if Cameron deserves MOM . Personally I think he did really well , but he wasn't the best on the pitch. Hughes may squad rotate he and Bardsley...there's not much between them.
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Post by Sergeant Muttley on Jun 17, 2014 22:30:59 GMT
Next season right back priority imo 1st choice Bardsley 2nd choice Cameron 3rd choice Wilson 4th choice Wilko
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Post by Gods on Jun 17, 2014 22:34:36 GMT
Well according to Paul he is 3rd choice behind Bardlsey and Wilko so I would imagine he envisages a fate worse than a spell on the bench for him. BTW he is better than Bardsley. And you're basing that purely on Bardsley being 'short and stocky'? And this lot too: From whoscored.com: * Strengths, weaknesses and style of play are calculated from player statistics in domestic league games this season and last Phil Bardsley's Characteristics * Strengths Dribbling Strong Blocking the ball Strong * Weaknesses Crossing Weak Passing Weak Holding on to the ball Weak Discipline Weak Phil Bardsley's Style of Play Indirect set-piece threat Likes to play long balls Plays the ball off the ground often © WhoScored.com Of course I am sure you take all this with a pinch of salt as I do but I love the way on here that because Bardsley is the new man he is going to be much better than the previous incumbent but I'm not convinced.
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Post by Olgrligm on Jun 17, 2014 22:42:04 GMT
It's weird that centre-back appears to be Cameron's best position (because he was dreadful for the entire season at right back, regardless of what some posters have bizarrely claimed) but Pulis never tried him there when the opportunity presented itself and he seems to be fifth choice centre back for Hughes, behind Shawcross, Huth, Wilson and Muniesa.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 17, 2014 22:42:33 GMT
And you're basing that purely on Bardsley being 'short and stocky'? And this lot too: From whoscored.com: * Strengths, weaknesses and style of play are calculated from player statistics in domestic league games this season and last Phil Bardsley's Characteristics * Strengths Dribbling Strong Blocking the ball Strong * Weaknesses Crossing Weak Passing Weak Holding on to the ball Weak Discipline Weak Phil Bardsley's Style of Play Indirect set-piece threat Likes to play long balls Plays the ball off the ground often © WhoScored.com Of course I am sure you take all this with a pinch of salt as I do but I love the way on here that because Bardsley is the new man he is going to be much better than the previous incumbent but I'm not convinced. How do Geoff's compare, given that he was the third most dribbled round full back in the league last season (stats are fun aren't they). I've seen plenty of Bardsley and though he's not a world beater from what I've seen he's solid enough defensively, gets forward well and actually plays like a right back. He isn't a square peg. It's not a question of him just being the new man but then you seem to have decided he's inferior based on even shakier logic than that!
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Post by Gods on Jun 17, 2014 22:50:02 GMT
And this lot too: From whoscored.com: * Strengths, weaknesses and style of play are calculated from player statistics in domestic league games this season and last Phil Bardsley's Characteristics * Strengths Dribbling Strong Blocking the ball Strong * Weaknesses Crossing Weak Passing Weak Holding on to the ball Weak Discipline Weak Phil Bardsley's Style of Play Indirect set-piece threat Likes to play long balls Plays the ball off the ground often © WhoScored.com Of course I am sure you take all this with a pinch of salt as I do but I love the way on here that because Bardsley is the new man he is going to be much better than the previous incumbent but I'm not convinced. How do Geoff's compare, given that he was the third most dribbled round full back in the league last season (stats are fun aren't they). I've seen plenty of Bardsley and though he's not a world beater from what I've seen he's solid enough defensively, gets forward well and actually plays like a right back. He isn't a square peg. It's not a question of him just being the new man but then you seem to have decided he's inferior based on even shakier logic than that! Here you go. Very crudely 4 strengths and 2 weaknesses versus 2 strengths and 4 weaknesses although he does have one super-weakness! Neither of them can pass it seems Geoff Cameron's Characteristics + Strengths Dribbling Strong Tackling Strong Ball interception Strong Concentration Strong - Weaknesses Holding on to the ball Very Weak Passing Weak Geoff Cameron's Style of Play Plays the ball off the ground often Likes to dribble Likes to tackle © WhoScored.com * Strengths, weaknesses and style of play are calculated from player statistics in domestic league games this season and last
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Post by bayernoatcake on Jun 17, 2014 22:50:40 GMT
Concentration?
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Post by mailman44 on Jun 17, 2014 22:52:42 GMT
I wouldn't say hammer, just very quick to downplay his efforts and damn him with faint praise. I'd like to know what solutions the Golfing fraternity have come up with to solve the Rooney dilemma though. Woy should seek their counsel... the way I see it, if that had been Shawcross in an England shirt, we would all calling it a defensive masterclass. Starting to think there's an anti USA undertone on the oatcake Well I have been thinking it for awhile. Cameron gets stick from some of the cunts on this board because he is an "Ahmericaaan". Leave it to a few of the myopic geezers on here to have a go at a lad who plays out of position to help the side. He was a pillar of strength last night in his second position and had Gyan in his pocket for 90% of the match but heaven forbid some of you lot would be objective and judge him as a player and not as an American.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Jun 17, 2014 22:57:42 GMT
And you're basing that purely on Bardsley being 'short and stocky'? And this lot too: From whoscored.com: * Strengths, weaknesses and style of play are calculated from player statistics in domestic league games this season and last Phil Bardsley's Characteristics * Strengths Dribbling Strong Blocking the ball Strong * Weaknesses Crossing Weak Passing Weak Holding on to the ball Weak Discipline Weak Phil Bardsley's Style of Play Indirect set-piece threat Likes to play long balls Plays the ball off the ground often © WhoScored.com Of course I am sure you take all this with a pinch of salt as I do but I love the way on here that because Bardsley is the new man he is going to be much better than the previous incumbent but I'm not convinced.
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