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Post by miltonstokie on Apr 13, 2014 21:06:40 GMT
Not in the top 5 agreed .. Hows that bollocks ??
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Post by lastoftheldk on Apr 13, 2014 23:22:17 GMT
Who's in your top five then? If you're under 50 then I would suggest that only Denis Smith or Alan Bloor can match Ryan's achievement of playing so consistently well for six seasons at the top level for our club. I've seen other other great centre halves like Mike Doyle and Dave Watson, but they didn't give us the service Ryan has given us. He's a Stoke City legend as far as I'm concerned. Smith, Dodd, Bloor, Bould, Huth, Doyle, Watson are better Cranson ,Overson, Berry, Faye, Shawcross etc are on the next level down
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Post by greenbaize on Apr 14, 2014 0:37:23 GMT
These comparisons are impossible, although that doesn't mean they are not interesting. The 1974/75 side was (in the context of the time) on a different planet from the current team. Much more skill. Nevertheless, I think the current team would take its 70s predecessor apart - bigger, faster, fitter, more muscular and more athletic. You might apply a similar comparison between Smith (and Bluto/Doddy) and Shawcross. But having done that, Smithy gets my vote - and aside from anything else his scoring rate was very good. Who can forget the FA Cup QF replay in 72, when (ruled out of the game by a crippling back injury) he arrived at the ground at 7.00 (having had a huge plate of steak and chips for tea) he got out of the car - rectifying the back by some miracle. 30 minutes later he was on the pitch. And 90 minutes after that, he had scored in an epic match - and put Man Utd to the sword in the process. Hero. his wife dropped him off somewhere near the railway station as I recall and he walked the rest of the way into the ground then helped us dick the shit, can you imagine the modern day player doing that. Smith, Bloor and Doddy for me but if Ryan stays with us for the next few years then he can be mentioned in the same breath, ps franklin was before my time
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Post by str8outtahampton on Apr 14, 2014 7:25:29 GMT
These comparisons are impossible, although that doesn't mean they are not interesting. The 1974/75 side was (in the context of the time) on a different planet from the current team. Much more skill. Nevertheless, I think the current team would take its 70s predecessor apart - bigger, faster, fitter, more muscular and more athletic. You might apply a similar comparison between Smith (and Bluto/Doddy) and Shawcross. But having done that, Smithy gets my vote - and aside from anything else his scoring rate was very good. Who can forget the FA Cup QF replay in 72, when (ruled out of the game by a crippling back injury) he arrived at the ground at 7.00 (having had a huge plate of steak and chips for tea) he got out of the car - rectifying the back by some miracle. 30 minutes later he was on the pitch. And 90 minutes after that, he had scored in an epic match - and put Man Utd to the sword in the process. Hero. his wife dropped him off somewhere near the railway station as I recall and he walked the rest of the way into the ground then helped us dick the shit, can you imagine the modern day player doing that. Smith, Bloor and Doddy for me but if Ryan stays with us for the next few years then he can be mentioned in the same breath, ps franklin was before my time No you can't. I prefer your version of the story, and even if the detail is unclear, there is no doubt about Smith's attitude and approach. And the same goes for most players at that time. Incidentally, I like your turn of phrase. "Helping D the S". Right there you've given Smithy a title for his autobiography.
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Post by okeydokeystokie2 on Apr 14, 2014 8:00:28 GMT
Obviously never saw him play, but my Dad also reckons Franklin was one of the best footballers he had ever seen, never mind centre half.
In a lot of people's all time England team, he would be there with Moore.
He also re-invented the position, and was maybe the first of the ball playing "footballing" centre halves, before Moore and Beckenbauer etc.
One for the oldies, I seem to think that Frankie Soo was a centre half, and also supposed to be a terrific player in the post war nearly men team.
My memories of Stevie Bould are of him coming into the first team as a tall, gangly right back, who struggled to keep the ball in play and was a bit of a liability. It was only when he moved inside to centre half that he flourished. The absolute master of the near post corner flick on.
Ryan is an excellent Premier League defender, and his distribution definitely seems to be improving. Definitely in the top 5 for us in my opinion. Can he get even better?
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Post by chiswickpotter on Apr 14, 2014 9:21:30 GMT
Good shout, he'd be my 4th after a fantastic top 3. mumf would you seriously say Roy McFarland was a better CB than Smithy? Early to mid-70s who else was ahead of Smithy in the England possibles? Till Phil Thompson I don't think of that as a great era for CBs. I could name 10 centre halves better than Denis Smith at the time. Don't confuse guts , hardness and determination over style against overall ability. ten better, who were they ?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2014 9:27:46 GMT
Yes, the best.
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Post by Davef on Apr 14, 2014 9:29:52 GMT
Who's in your top five then? If you're under 50 then I would suggest that only Denis Smith or Alan Bloor can match Ryan's achievement of playing so consistently well for six seasons at the top level for our club. I've seen other other great centre halves like Mike Doyle and Dave Watson, but they didn't give us the service Ryan has given us. He's a Stoke City legend as far as I'm concerned. Smith, Dodd, Bloor, Bould, Huth, Doyle, Watson are better Cranson ,Overson, Berry, Faye, Shawcross etc are on the next level down Bould rarely, if ever, played at centre half for Stoke in the top flight and as outstanding as they were, Watson and Doyle didn't give Stoke half the service Ryan has given us. Ryan has stepped up to the plate in Huthy's absence to prove that he is the better player in my view. I'm not quite sure what your problem is with Ryan Shawcross but you clearly have something against him.
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Post by vahl on Apr 14, 2014 9:54:54 GMT
I always find it hard with these comparison threads/conversations because it's hard to judge it fairly.
I personally believe that this current squad of players (and almost certainly the current consistent starting 11) are the best in Stoke City history. We've had our stand out players, like all clubs do but, man-for-man we're in a place that we have never been before.
The other thing is that we're talking about virtually an entirely different make-up of the same sport nowadays. The modernisation of the sport (especially fitness & dietary requirements) basically gave us all new history books to write in terms of overall player and team quality - on this basis alone I find it is very hard to say 'X is better than Y' when it comes to era comparison etc.
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Post by mrcoke on Apr 14, 2014 10:04:31 GMT
When Wright, Matthews, and Finney all say Franklin was the best ever you have to concede he must have been truly brilliant. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neil_FranklinWhilst I am a huge fan of the defenders Stoke had in the 60s and 70s, when men were men, I do wonder how long they would stay on the pitch in today's game, with referees leaning over backwards to protect forwards and goal keepers, and a totally different interpretation of what constitutes a tackle. Plus forwards who have developed getting tripped over into an art form by trailing their leg, etc. I can think of a number of 60s defenders who would only have been elbowed or bitten once - it wouldn't have happened a second time. I always thought what would have happened if instead of spitting at Tony Allen, Pat/Paddy Crerand had spit at Calvin Palmer, Eddie Stamp, or Maurice Setters, what would have happened next?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2014 10:07:47 GMT
Tony allen played for England
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Post by MadMarko10 on Apr 14, 2014 11:35:35 GMT
Smith, Dodd, Bloor, Bould, Huth, Doyle, Watson are better Cranson ,Overson, Berry, Faye, Shawcross etc are on the next level down Bould rarely, if ever, played at centre half for Stoke in the top flight and as outstanding as they were, Watson and Doyle didn't give Stoke half the service Ryan has given us. Ryan has stepped up to the plate in Huthy's absence to prove that he is the better player in my view. I'm not quite sure what your problem is with Ryan Shawcross but you clearly have something against him. Add to that the fact that he thinks Wilson's a better CB than him and that it could be a Huth/Wilson partnership next year and one can only conclude that the man's a fucking moron with a strange agenda against our skipper.
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Post by Fenparkpotter on Apr 14, 2014 11:43:37 GMT
Although I wouldn't argue that Abdoulaye is in our top 5 centre halves.. his influence on our team that first year, and probably one of the reasons why Ryan has developed so well, make him one of my favourites
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Post by davethebass on Apr 14, 2014 13:13:07 GMT
his wife dropped him off somewhere near the railway station as I recall and he walked the rest of the way into the ground then helped us dick the shit, can you imagine the modern day player doing that. Smith, Bloor and Doddy for me but if Ryan stays with us for the next few years then he can be mentioned in the same breath, ps franklin was before my time No you can't. I prefer your version of the story, and even if the detail is unclear, there is no doubt about Smith's attitude and approach. And the same goes for most players at that time. Incidentally, I like your turn of phrase. "Helping D the S". Right there you've given Smithy a title for his autobiography. My version of the story: Smithy couldn't train 'cause his back was out so off his own bat he took the league cup round loads of schools to show the kids. It was in a heavy old leather bound wooden box. Getting back in his car with said heavy box, his back clicked and he was fine to play again. Instant karma for his good deed we thought. And yes, I did hoist that 3 handled cup in the air So proud, a fantastic memory, top bloke.
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Post by thestatusquo on Apr 14, 2014 15:04:05 GMT
Who's in your top five then? If you're under 50 then I would suggest that only Denis Smith or Alan Bloor can match Ryan's achievement of playing so consistently well for six seasons at the top level for our club. I've seen other other great centre halves like Mike Doyle and Dave Watson, but they didn't give us the service Ryan has given us. He's a Stoke City legend as far as I'm concerned. I'm glad someone has mentioned Mike Doyle. A great player.
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Post by pedro23 on Apr 14, 2014 15:29:02 GMT
When Wright, Matthews, and Finney all say Franklin was the best ever you have to concede he must have been truly brilliant. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neil_FranklinWhilst I am a huge fan of the defenders Stoke had in the 60s and 70s, when men were men, I do wonder how long they would stay on the pitch in today's game, with referees leaning over backwards to protect forwards and goal keepers, and a totally different interpretation of what constitutes a tackle. Plus forwards who have developed getting tripped over into an art form by trailing their leg, etc. I can think of a number of 60s defenders who would only have been elbowed or bitten once - it wouldn't have happened a second time. I always thought what would have happened if instead of spitting at Tony Allen, Pat/Paddy Crerand had spit at Calvin Palmer, Eddie Stamp, or Maurice Setters, what would have happened next? I read on a regular basis how players from the 70's would not survive in the modern game. However, instead of bringing those players of the 60s and 70s forward and judged on the way football is now played, why not turn it around and ask the question how many of todays super healthy, super fast players would survive back then. In my view it would be like an amateur Gliding club. I also think whilst the increase in pace has certainly happened, I don't think there has been much of increase in technique. The average quality of crossing in the modern game is piss poor, look how every one is raving about Arnie's performance on Saturday, with 5 quality crosses.
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Post by jarvinski on Apr 14, 2014 20:08:09 GMT
He is certainly in the top 3, along with Neil franklin and smithy
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Post by BrummiePotter on Apr 14, 2014 20:47:56 GMT
What about Big Brendan O'Callaghan - one minute a centre-forward, the next a towering centre-back. How many goals did we used to score with near post flick-ons from corners when BIg Bren was in the box?
More recently, Gerry Taggart - not the best defender admittedly but he led the team immensely.
I even thought Private Whittle and Clint Hill weren't too bad, for the divisions we were in at the time!
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Post by JoeinOz on Apr 15, 2014 3:19:46 GMT
One thing about Shawcy is how we improved with him in the team. When we first got him we were a decent Championship side. We are now decent Premier league side. Shawcy has been a big part of that growth.
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Post by Jamo on the wing on Apr 15, 2014 6:10:52 GMT
Ryan Shawcross is now a Stoke legend and we are very lucky to have him here.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2014 8:08:42 GMT
Quiet and unassuming off the pitch but on the pitch he becomes a completely different animal.
Natural born leader who never shies away from responsibility and if there's something to be said or encouragement to be given then he says and gives it.
In short a fantastic player, he's ours and I wouldn't swap him for anyone in the world.
Legend.
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Post by werrington on Apr 15, 2014 9:23:53 GMT
Quiet and unassuming off the pitch but on the pitch he becomes a completely different animal. Natural born leader who never shies away from responsibility and if there's something to be said or encouragement to be given then he says and gives it. In short a fantastic player, he's ours and I wouldn't swap him for anyone in the world. Legend. I agree with this Taz Nurse nurse
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Post by robwahlmann on Apr 15, 2014 15:47:48 GMT
I think it's very difficult to compare players from different eras, but Ryan is solid as a rock that's for sure!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2014 17:26:34 GMT
Quiet and unassuming off the pitch but on the pitch he becomes a completely different animal. Natural born leader who never shies away from responsibility and if there's something to be said or encouragement to be given then he says and gives it. In short a fantastic player, he's ours and I wouldn't swap him for anyone in the world. Legend. I agree with this Taz Nurse nurse Guess it must be meds time.
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Post by wokinghampotter on Apr 15, 2014 17:47:55 GMT
As above Veritas. My father always told me that when watching Neil Franklin it was a master class. For me Denis Smith and Ryan are the ones.
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Post by senojbor on Apr 15, 2014 17:54:16 GMT
Denis Smith is the best Centre half I've seen in a Stoke shirt.
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Post by robwahlmann on Apr 15, 2014 18:00:09 GMT
I actually think there are no better central defender in the PL for Stoke than Ryan Shawcross! People will always mention Kompany, but I must say he has done awfully many mistakes this season to be so amazing as many think! Look at the other top clubs like Lpool with Skertl and Agger, Chelsea with Cahill, Terry and Luiz, Arsenal with Mertesacher and Kochelny! I wouldn't swap Ryan for any of these players! The most impressive defender alongside Ryan to me this season is Distin at Everton and he is around 35 years old!
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Post by OldStokie on Apr 15, 2014 21:05:04 GMT
I've seen every one since 1950, and IMO Ryan can hold his head up in any centre half company. Some people talk of centre halves in the past as if they were gods, but they all made mistakes. Ryan is playing in a league that now has many of the world's best strikers in it, and very few can make a fool of him. Folk thought he was just a big-boot player until Hughes gave him the freedom to really express his talents, and he's become an awesome centre half. He reads the game brilliantly... just as well as Micky Doyle and Doddy and Dave Watson and Ken Thompson could; he's as quick as any I've seen, and he's as hard as Smithy. Only when/if he leaves us will some of you understand his true value and ability. Is he the best we've ever had? If he stays with us he could well be.
OS.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2014 21:13:19 GMT
I've seen every one since 1950, and IMO Ryan can hold his head up in any centre half company. Some people talk of centre halves in the past as if they were gods, but they all made mistakes. Ryan is playing in a league that now has many of the world's best strikers in it, and very few can make a fool of him. Folk thought he was just a big-boot player until Hughes gave him the freedom to really express his talents, and he's become an awesome centre half. He reads the game brilliantly... just as well as Micky Doyle and Doddy and Dave Watson and Ken Thompson could; he's as quick as any I've seen, and he's as hard as Smithy. Only when/if he leaves us will some of you understand his true value and ability. Is he the best we've ever had? If he stays with us he could well be. OS. It's great to see him burst out of defence at times now as well. It doesn't always end in a great final pass or cross but it's how he drives us forward at times when we fall a bit flat. The crowd react when he does it and it's as if he's dragging his team mates forwardd in the process. Like all great leaders, he does so by example. Inspirational.
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Post by Godo on Apr 16, 2014 13:16:22 GMT
Never saw Neil Franklin but by all accounts was one of the best in the world................
But there is a quite a bit of competition that I have seen - Smithy was scarier and more fun to watch, Bloor was a silent assassin and a great reader of the game and Mike Doyle and Dave Watson could play and were HARD. Alan Dodd at one stage when he broke through into the team looked like our version of Franz Beckenbauer. Sergei Shtaniuk could have played at a much higher level. Setting aside the players who weren't here for very long you'd have to say that Ryan is currently about 4th best centre back we've had, which is some achievement and the bloke continues to improve. So who knows where he may end in the pantheon of our greatest players? (unless he goes back to the Shit next season!)
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