|
Post by lastoftheldk on Apr 12, 2014 22:19:41 GMT
No, not in the top five
|
|
|
Post by Olgrligm on Apr 12, 2014 22:27:42 GMT
It's a shame that we've now reached a stage where there are very, very few people left who saw Franklin (and Matthews) play for Stoke in their prime and no footage exists for the rest of us to enjoy their talents.
|
|
|
Post by Davef on Apr 12, 2014 23:36:19 GMT
Who's in your top five then? If you're under 50 then I would suggest that only Denis Smith or Alan Bloor can match Ryan's achievement of playing so consistently well for six seasons at the top level for our club. I've seen other other great centre halves like Mike Doyle and Dave Watson, but they didn't give us the service Ryan has given us. He's a Stoke City legend as far as I'm concerned.
|
|
|
Post by onionman on Apr 12, 2014 23:57:38 GMT
We can only compare fairly after his Stoke career is over, and at that stage I suspect the only debate will be between Shawcross and Franklin.
|
|
|
Post by ukcstokie on Apr 13, 2014 0:27:19 GMT
There was an article in the Times on Neil Franklin a couple of weeks ago (mention on their podcast).
|
|
raven
Academy Starlet
Posts: 118
|
Post by raven on Apr 13, 2014 7:20:49 GMT
NO, Neil Franklin or Ken Thomson was.
|
|
|
Post by str8outtahampton on Apr 13, 2014 8:48:06 GMT
These comparisons are impossible, although that doesn't mean they are not interesting.
The 1974/75 side was (in the context of the time) on a different planet from the current team. Much more skill. Nevertheless, I think the current team would take its 70s predecessor apart - bigger, faster, fitter, more muscular and more athletic.
You might apply a similar comparison between Smith (and Bluto/Doddy) and Shawcross. But having done that, Smithy gets my vote - and aside from anything else his scoring rate was very good. Who can forget the FA Cup QF replay in 72, when (ruled out of the game by a crippling back injury) he arrived at the ground at 7.00 (having had a huge plate of steak and chips for tea) he got out of the car - rectifying the back by some miracle. 30 minutes later he was on the pitch. And 90 minutes after that, he had scored in an epic match - and put Man Utd to the sword in the process.
Hero.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2014 8:58:37 GMT
Huth isn't quite at Ryan's level, but interesting that he's not really getting a mention for top 5. There was a time when it was thought that Ryan looked so outstanding because of his partner.
|
|
|
Post by Bagwash on Apr 13, 2014 10:34:45 GMT
I would say that Denis Smith just shades it from Ryan but Ryan is well on his way to becoming a Stoke legend. Top bloke and a perfect footballing role model for kids.
|
|
|
Post by PerCyfilth ....Captains Log on Apr 13, 2014 10:38:50 GMT
Billy Wright 105 caps for England stated if Neil Franklin had stayed in England he would not have had anywhere near 50 caps let alone 105. Nuff said.
|
|
|
Post by arniepieinthesky on Apr 13, 2014 10:58:11 GMT
I dont know how people think they can make a fair comparison, the game is forever changing.....its so much quicker than it was 15 years ago, never mind 30...40.....50 years ago.
In a straight match up, making no allowances for the change in game, players from the prev era's 70's and before would not live in the modern game, they wouldn't come close. Not through talent, but sheer fitness.
In addition, it's far easier to showcase talent in a slow moving game, as opposed to the game we see today. Which really shows you how good the likes of Messi, Ronaldo and even Bale are, to have such control under such speed and pace. Its the way life goes, we get quicker, stronger as the era's pass. Better nutrition, supplements and equitment is constently being designed to improve performance.
|
|
|
Post by AlliG on Apr 13, 2014 11:01:40 GMT
My Dad watched us from 1936 to 2008 and he always said that Neil Franklin wasn't just the best centre-half he had ever seen, he was the best player he had ever seen. He had some great tales of his calmness and composure in his own penalty area and that unusually for defenders of his time his first thought whenever he won the ball was to take a touch, consider his options and then pick the right pass.
Ryan is well on his way (if he isn't already) to being one of those players we will still be reminiscing about over a pint in 25/30 years time.
I hope in 10 years time we are writing the eulogies when he hangs up his boota as one of Stoke's longest serving & best players.
|
|
|
Post by AlliG on Apr 13, 2014 11:05:20 GMT
I dont know how people think they can make a fair comparison, the game is forever changing.....its so much quicker than it was 15 years ago, never mind 30...40.....50 years ago. In a straight match up, making no allowances for the change in game, players from the prev era's 70's and before would not live in the modern game, they wouldn't come close. Not through talent, but sheer fitness. In addition, it's far easier to showcase talent in a slow moving game, as opposed to the game we see today. Which really shows you how good the likes of Messi, Ronaldo and even Bale are, to have such control under such speed and pace. Its the way life goes, we get quicker, stronger as the era's pass. Better nutrition, supplements and equitment is constently being designed to improve performance. But it is also so much easier to showcase your talents on a pitch like a billiard table. To paraphrase a popular statement. Could Messi do it on a Baseball Ground pitch on a wet February day when there was only 1 blade of grass, the mud was 6 inches deep and Dave Mackay was kicking him around the ground?
|
|
|
Post by Davef on Apr 13, 2014 11:06:17 GMT
I dont know how people think they can make a fair comparison, the game is forever changing.....its so much quicker than it was 15 years ago, never mind 30...40.....50 years ago. In a straight match up, making no allowances for the change in game, players from the prev era's 70's and before would not live in the modern game, they wouldn't come close. Not through talent, but sheer fitness. In addition, it's far easier to showcase talent in a slow moving game, as opposed to the game we see today. Which really shows you how good the likes of Messi, Ronaldo and even Bale are, to have such control under such speed and pace. Its the way life goes, we get quicker, stronger as the era's pass. Better nutrition, supplements and equitment is constently being designed to improve performance. But it is also so much easier to showcase your talents on a pitch like a billiard table. To paraphrase a popular statement. Could Messi do it on a Baseball Ground pitch on a wet February day when there was only 1 blade of grass, the mud was 6 inches deep and Dave Mackay was kicking him around the ground? Huddy managed it.
|
|
|
Post by Laughing Gravy on Apr 13, 2014 11:13:43 GMT
In my era (1970 onwards) I'd say he's neck and neck with Smithy who's one of my all-time heroes. I never saw Franklin play so it's hard to say but Billy Wright was a fairly astute footballing man. So probably joint second (at the moment).
|
|
|
Post by Mr_DaftBurger on Apr 13, 2014 11:15:35 GMT
If Smithy, Pej, Jackie and Bluto were in our defence today Arsenal wouldn't even leave the tunnel! I think Doddy would be more suited to today's game than any of them.
|
|
|
Post by salopstick on Apr 13, 2014 11:16:46 GMT
Segei shtaniuk was some player , all be it in lower leagues I loved the big shit
|
|
|
Post by sheikhmomo on Apr 13, 2014 11:18:30 GMT
I think the serious answer to the opening question is no, however Shawcross is the most important part of this team by a mile and is virtually irreplaceable. There surely has to be serious big club interest in him in the summer.
|
|
|
Post by silverdollar on Apr 13, 2014 11:18:56 GMT
Don't forget George Kinnell!
|
|
|
Post by pedro23 on Apr 13, 2014 11:27:50 GMT
Very difficult to compare. Not only do you have the different levels of fitness and pace at which the game is played at, you also have to take into account the bowling green type surfaces which Premiership football is now played on, a plastic ball compared to a leather one, the romantic aspect of nostalgia watching top players in your youth making a big and lasting impression, and changes in the rules of the game. For example whenever I see Ryan play, the vast majority of contact he has with the ball is with his head, or when he picks up a pass from the Keeper and he plays it long to Crouchie. My memories of Smithy in particular were of crunching, but fair tackles, sometimes from behind of course. In my view the truly great players don't get that from coaching, would a young George Best arriving in the new Stoke Academy still make it in the modern game, I happen to think he would. If Ryan stays and performs at his current level for another few Years, then for me he will be up there with the best of them. For the moment I am going with the lad from Meir
|
|
|
Post by lawrieleslie on Apr 13, 2014 11:55:05 GMT
Bearing in mind I never saw Franklin, who has to be number 1, play and only saw Smithy in his later years (plus I was only a young girl), I would put Ryan and Smithy neck and neck at 2=... very different players, both unlucky not to have become international regulars at the right age, what they have in common is unbelievable commitment. I wouldn't . Shawxross is better. Smithy wasn't unlucky....he wasn't good enough , whereas Shawxross has been 'unlucky'. That's a tad harsh on Denis. I agree he wasn't good enough but that was due to England having good defenders such as Jack Charlton, Bobby Moore , Roy MacFarland and Brian Labone. Had it not been for this then Smithy would have been an England regular IMO. Perhaps Ryan is suffering the same as Woy considers Cahill, Jagielka and Dawson as his top centre backs above Ryan.
|
|
|
Post by silverdollar on Apr 13, 2014 12:01:25 GMT
I personally don't think you can compare players across generations as human performance has improved considerably as well as diet, training and life style. How were our centre halves rated within their time may give a better indication. In those terms Neil Franklin was considered the best of his generation by greats such Billy Wright. Denis Smith was my hero but could not make the England team. It is a very similar situation with Shawcross. I'm pleased he plays in the Stoke team but at the moments he isn't ranked highly by his peers. Probably good but not exceptional. For these reasons I would have to say Franklin has to be selected as our greatest ever centre half.
|
|
|
Post by tuum on Apr 13, 2014 12:33:54 GMT
Alan Dodd was something special in his prime Good shout, he'd be my 4th after a fantastic top 3. mumf would you seriously say Roy McFarland was a better CB than Smithy? Early to mid-70s who else was ahead of Smithy in the England possibles? Till Phil Thompson I don't think of that as a great era for CBs. Didn't Smithy admit that McFarland was the only better CH playing at the time...or maybe it was the best ball-playing CH. I can't quite remember
|
|
|
Post by nononsense on Apr 13, 2014 12:37:20 GMT
After another fantastically solid performance today, yes he can still improve, however, Ryan has become one of the most consistent players in the premier league. Having watched Stoke for over 40 years, I believe that Ryan has to be up there as the best centre half in Stoke City's history, yes I know Denis Smith & Alan Bloor were iconic, but they played in an era where foreign players were very rare indeed, the premier league has been graced with some of the very best strikers in the world over the past 6 seasons and Ryan is getting better and becoming a fantastic defender. I was wondering where you would rate him and whom you think is better? - Discuss NO !! Dennis Smith is !
|
|
|
Post by march4 on Apr 13, 2014 12:37:47 GMT
Good shout, he'd be my 4th after a fantastic top 3. mumf would you seriously say Roy McFarland was a better CB than Smithy? Early to mid-70s who else was ahead of Smithy in the England possibles? Till Phil Thompson I don't think of that as a great era for CBs. Didn't Smithy admit that McFarland was the only better CH playing at the time...or maybe it was the best ball-playing CH. I can't quite remember Denis was the better defender, but McFarland and Todd were better on the ball.
|
|
|
Post by nononsense on Apr 13, 2014 12:40:51 GMT
Oh yeah, Alan Bloor was just as good as Shawcross too imo
|
|
|
Post by mermaidsal on Apr 13, 2014 13:04:10 GMT
Don't forget George Kinnell! That's not you is it dear much-missed hudson/kinnell/how many more names involved here?? ) PM if it is you... xx
|
|
|
Post by mermaidsal on Apr 13, 2014 13:08:11 GMT
NO, Neil Franklin or Ken Thomson was. raven tell us more about Ken Thomson please??
|
|
|
Post by AlliG on Apr 13, 2014 20:40:14 GMT
But it is also so much easier to showcase your talents on a pitch like a billiard table. To paraphrase a popular statement. Could Messi do it on a Baseball Ground pitch on a wet February day when there was only 1 blade of grass, the mud was 6 inches deep and Dave Mackay was kicking him around the ground? Huddy managed it. I know and I was there to watch him do it! That is the point, I don't think the comparison between today's players and their predecessors is quite so one=sided and clear cut as sometimes is suggested. I am sure that the likes of Hudson, Conroy, Greenhoff, Best etc etc would have loved the opportunity to play every week on a beautifully smooth and slick playing surface where the ball rolls perfectly and where the defender can't give you a good early kicking to "test you out". For example, I wonder how some of our modern superstars would cope with some of the treatment Pele had to take in the 1966 World Cup
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2014 20:42:18 GMT
|
|