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Post by Deleted on Jun 4, 2014 11:50:19 GMT
Sureky though Milner at full back simply emphasises the muddled thinking behind the squad in the first place? not really Jones will be backup to Johnson but Jones isn't 100% so presumably he's just checking he has another option for cover just in case personally i'd have fucked Jones and Smalling out of the squad from the start and made room to take Flanagan as RB back up
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Post by geoff321 on Jun 4, 2014 12:02:41 GMT
I think there were four major reasons why we won the world cup in 1966.
1. It was played in England.
2. We had a world class manager.
3. We had three world class players in Charlton, Banks and Moore, who would have been selected in a world best eleven.
4. Ramsey had a radical tactical system at the time, which in effect had no orthodox wingers.
None of the above factors apply to this world cup, if Hodgson can get us through the group stage he will have done a good job.
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Post by dirtygary69 on Jun 4, 2014 12:15:41 GMT
Leaving Rooney out of our starting line-up at the World Cup would be brave and potentially very stupid. Where has all of this nonsense about Rooney come from anyway? He was one the only players to have had a decent season at Man United and, although he's not yet scored at a World Cup, he's still by far our most gifted player.
All this negativity isn't going to help anybody. Let him get on with playing football.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 4, 2014 12:22:26 GMT
Leaving Rooney out of our starting line-up at the World Cup would be brave and potentially very stupid. Where has all of this nonsense about Rooney come from anyway? He was one the only players to have had a decent season at Man United and, although he's not yet scored at a World Cup, he's still by far our most gifted player. All this negativity isn't going to help anybody. Let him get on with playing football. scored 96 goals in 4 seasons and top scorer for England in qualifiers. injured at last 2 World cups so the lazy media give this lazy bullshit about him bottling it at big tournaments whilst conveniently ignoring that when he was fully fit in 2004 Euros he was far and away our best player.....people then latch onto that and ignore the facts because if they say something controversial and against the grain they hope it convinces people they must know something more than anyone else.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Jun 4, 2014 12:32:21 GMT
The only thing lacking with Rooney is match time. He is renowned for taking a while to get going after a lay-off. Fergie stated that he was the sort of player who had to be playing regularly to get the best out of him. Tonight's game is all about getting on pitch leg time into the players who need it. Nothing more, nothing less. Rooney will start every game in the middle and where he can be most influential as should our best player. Imagining he is not or anything else will happen is frankly people kidding themselves in my opinion.
Really disagree with you here Mark.
In my (and many other people's) opinion Rooney neither has the stamina nor the discipline to play in the hole for England in a 4-2-3-1, you either have him leading the line in a 4-3-3 or you don't play him at all - as has already been debated at length on this thread.
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Post by geoff321 on Jun 4, 2014 12:33:10 GMT
I don't have a problem with the press discussing Rooney's form, if you are an England player and earn £300k a week, you are going to get good and bad press.
In one sense it may help England and Rooney, that at least we are not getting the over hyping that goes with most tournaments England compete in.
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Post by str8outtahampton on Jun 4, 2014 12:35:52 GMT
I think there were four major reasons why we won the world cup in 1966. 1. It was played in England. 2. We had a world class manager. 3. We had three world class players in Charlton, Banks and Moore, who would have been selected in a world best eleven. 4. Ramsey had a radical tactical system at the time, which in effect had no orthodox wingers. None of the above factors apply to this world cup, if Hodgson can get us through the group stage he will have done a good job. You can add the following to your reasons (a couple related to your first): 5. England were not required to qualify - qualification has rarely been a foregone conclusion 6. All games played at the same venue - Wembley 7. Brazil (and especially Pele) were subject to some brutal treatment - by Bulgaria I think 8. There were only 16 teams taking part 9. An element of luck in that Hurst's second was not over the line. Notwithstanding that, it was a very good side. One which could afford to start without Greaves, amazingly. In the context of the time and opposition it was massively superior to the current team.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Jun 4, 2014 12:35:58 GMT
Sureky though Milner at full back simply emphasises the muddled thinking behind the squad in the first place? not really Jones will be backup to Johnson but Jones isn't 100% so presumably he's just checking he has another option for cover just in case personally i'd have fucked Jones and Smalling out of the squad from the start and made room to take Flanagan as RB back up
That would kind of make sense if Jones wasn't starting tonight but actually he IS starting isn't he, at centre back?
I think Sheikhy is right, if Jones is the principal back up for Johnson and Roy wants to give all the players a run out in the positions they're covering for, then why not start him at right back?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 4, 2014 12:40:08 GMT
The only thing lacking with Rooney is match time. He is renowned for taking a while to get going after a lay-off. Fergie stated that he was the sort of player who had to be playing regularly to get the best out of him. Tonight's game is all about getting on pitch leg time into the players who need it. Nothing more, nothing less. Rooney will start every game in the middle and where he can be most influential as should our best player. Imagining he is not or anything else will happen is frankly people kidding themselves in my opinion.
Really disagree with you here Mark.
In my (and many other peoples) opinion Rooney neither has the stamina nor the discipline to play in the hole for England in a 4-2-3-1, you either have him leading the line in a 4-3-3 or you don't play him at all - as has already been debated at length on this thread.
I can't remember the last time I saw Rooney play well in any position other than up front on his own as an out and out striker. I think he was still playing in a withdrawn role quite well a few years ago, but as Paul Scholes said recently, and as many others are saying, he doesn't seem to be physically capable anymore. Paul Scholes knows him well I would have thought. Indeed, I don't think Rooney ever has any impact on a game anymore when he is playing deep. I think Hodgson has made this decision to give him ammunition to drop Rooney. The decision for Hodgson to REALLY make is to play Rooney or Sturridge in the lone striker role (assuming Hodgson is as inflexible as ever and won't depart from his 4-2-3-1). Rooney will be rubbish as always playing on the left and may even be dropped for the Italy game. This is Pulis-type machiavellian team selection in my opinion. Ih he really wanted Rooney to get sharp and in form he would be more concerned with playing Rooney in his best position rather than Lambert or Barkley wouldn't he? Lambert is only ever going to be a sub in the world cup so why would he be so bothered at playing him as lone striker and rooney on the left? Rooney hates that position. He's hanging him out to dry that's why
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Post by Deleted on Jun 4, 2014 13:10:08 GMT
not really Jones will be backup to Johnson but Jones isn't 100% so presumably he's just checking he has another option for cover just in case personally i'd have fucked Jones and Smalling out of the squad from the start and made room to take Flanagan as RB back up
That would kind of make sense if Jones wasn't starting tonight but actually he IS starting isn't he, at centre back?
I think Sheikhy is right, if Jones is the principal back up for Johnson and Roy wants to give all the players a run out in the positions they're covering for, then why not start him at right back?
presumably Smalling and Jones will start at CB (as they're both seen as backups there as well) so that way both get a run out and are kept fresh (and in Jones' case he gets some game time) so that would mean there needs to be an alternative at RB Re: Milner from Hodgson earlier “He’s got the qualities to play there. There may be moments in the World Cup when we’d like to use him there. This will give him some experience. He’s in the squad as a right- or left-sided midfield player and that’s where we see him mostly, but it will be interesting to see how he gets on.” that's the thing really, Jones is seen as a backup for CB or RB and he can't play both tonight. he obviously wants to rest Jags and Cahill and there's no real point letting Stones go at CB as he isn't part of the 23 anyway. it makes sense to be fair
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Post by Paul Spencer on Jun 4, 2014 13:49:48 GMT
That would kind of make sense if Jones wasn't starting tonight but actually he IS starting isn't he, at centre back?
I think Sheikhy is right, if Jones is the principal back up for Johnson and Roy wants to give all the players a run out in the positions they're covering for, then why not start him at right back?
presumably Smalling and Jones will start at CB (as they're both seen as backups there as well) so that way both get a run out and are kept fresh (and in Jones' case he gets some game time) so that would mean there needs to be an alternative at RB Re: Milner from Hodgson earlier “He’s got the qualities to play there. There may be moments in the World Cup when we’d like to use him there. This will give him some experience. He’s in the squad as a right- or left-sided midfield player and that’s where we see him mostly, but it will be interesting to see how he gets on.” that's the thing really, Jones is seen as a backup for CB or RB and he can't play both tonight. he obviously wants to rest Jags and Cahill and there's no real point letting Stones go at CB as he isn't part of the 23 anyway. it makes sense to be fair
I don't think it makes sense mate.
It's going to be a highly unusual situation for Hodgson to lose BOTH Cahill and Jags at the same time but he could lose Johnson quite easily, the logical thing if he really is just giving everybody a run out, would be to start Jones at right back, to make sure he's sharp in that position, with him being first choice cover there.
However I'm not convinced that Hodgson is entirely comfortable with Johnson there anyway - he shouldn't be!
At the end of the day we're all just trying to second guess Roy's motives with this team selection but I'm inclined to go with some of the journo's who think there might be a little more than first meets the eye to the choice of Milner and Rooney this evening.
None of us can be completely sure of course.
We'll all find out soon enough I guess.
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Post by okeydokeystokie2 on Jun 4, 2014 13:53:45 GMT
I'm not sure it's that straightforward.
Johnson had a proper mare against Peru, and all the old doubts about positioning, tactical discipline and basic defensive ability re-surfaced.
To me, Phil Jones has done nothing in the last couple of years to make me think he is even a back-up international full back. In fact he seems to have gone backwards since he left Blackburn, and also looks injury prone.
In fairness to Roy, we are desperately short of English right backs. I think Milner has the opportunity to be considered as first choice right back. I wouldn't mind this. He is proven at international level, has had a decent season, is tactically disciplined and will do the job asked of him, can get up and down and is as fit as a fiddle.
There are so many issues with our defence its worrying. The squad is unbalanced. Not sure how fit Jagielka or Jones are (to say nothing of Rooney, Wilshere and Chambo), Shaw is a rookie, Smalling is sub standard and we haven't really got any recognised defensive midfielders.
We know what Lampard can do, and he is surely only back up if we have an injury crisis. We know that Lambert's plan B. We're going to chuck him on for the last 20 if we're chasing and go 2 up. So do this in this game. The best thing to do in my amateur hour opinion would be to play Barkley behind Rooney up front and look at some viable options.
It looks like Roy's trying to give everybody a game as a squad harmony exercise, but I'm not sure if there is time.
Edit: Sorry Paul, beat me to it - again. I wouldn't be surprised to see Milner play at RB in this tournament - he could be the best of a bad job.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 4, 2014 13:56:31 GMT
presumably Smalling and Jones will start at CB (as they're both seen as backups there as well) so that way both get a run out and are kept fresh (and in Jones' case he gets some game time) so that would mean there needs to be an alternative at RB Re: Milner from Hodgson earlier “He’s got the qualities to play there. There may be moments in the World Cup when we’d like to use him there. This will give him some experience. He’s in the squad as a right- or left-sided midfield player and that’s where we see him mostly, but it will be interesting to see how he gets on.” that's the thing really, Jones is seen as a backup for CB or RB and he can't play both tonight. he obviously wants to rest Jags and Cahill and there's no real point letting Stones go at CB as he isn't part of the 23 anyway. it makes sense to be fair
I don't think it makes sense mate.
It's going to be a highly unusual situation for Hodgson to lose BOTH Cahill and Jags at the same time but he could lose Johnson quite easily, the logical thing if he really is just giving everybody a run out, would be to start Jones at right back, to make sure he's sharp in that position, with him being first choice cover there.
However I'm not convinced that Hodgson is entirely comfortable with Johnson there anyway - he shouldn't be!
At the end of the day we're all just trying to second guess Roy's motives with this team selection but I'm inclined to go with some of the journo's who think there might be a little more than first meets the eye to the choice of Milner and Rooney this evening.
None of us can be completely sure of course.
We'll all find out soon enough I guess.
it makes sense if he's doing what i presume he is but in terms of common sense then i agree it's baffling! personally i'd start Jones at RB and just rest Cahill as Jags needs some gametime under his belt too. then again, i'd never have taken Jones anyway, i'd have had Smalling as CB cover and take Flanagan and Johnson for RB (i agree Johnson shouldn't even be anywhere near the squad in an ideal world but we're just so short in that area nowadays) like you say, none of us will really know the why's or wherefore's but i don't really think it's that important in what is basically a kick about to keep players fresh. if we wanted to be tested and give our players a proper go in terms of experimenting we wouldn't pick this kind of opposition. we always play crap sides for the last couple of friendlies before a Cup and all the squad tend to get a run out in them just to keep them interested/make them feel part of the setup more than anything else. i think the paper stories are nothing but over-sensationalising things in the way they do before every major tournament to keep the public's interest high and make sure it's a continuous wave of interest throughout the build up now we're so close. these are the same papers that build us up to be inevitable contenders every tournament with no justification then slate them when they come back and tell us how useless we all knew they'd be before it all started anyway. if they just came out and said "The formation tonight means fuck all and doesn't have any bearing on the Italy game, it's just to acclimatise them to conditions" then their editor would go bezerk...nothing more than that to these stories if you ask me. it'll be a crappy game and we'll play crap as it's a B-side we're fielding but the media will still use it as a way to gauge us for 10 days time even though our 11 that day will be nothing like this..they know that full well but they have to create an interesting story if there isn't actually really one there for them to grip onto and run with.
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Post by okeydokeystokie2 on Jun 4, 2014 14:02:20 GMT
I think he knows he's got a problem at Right Back. Johnson too prone to go wandering off on his own. I don't see Jones as a right back and I think Milner may have played there before. At least he'll keep our shape and get back when he should.
It could be a way of waking up Glen Johnson and saying you've got to listen to what we're telling you. All this talk of the Liverpool way is OK, but they conceded 50 goals in 38 matches.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 4, 2014 14:09:12 GMT
I think he knows he's got a problem at Right Back. Johnson too prone to go wandering off on his own. I don't see Jones as a right back and I think Milner may have played there before. At least he'll keep our shape and get back when he should. It could be a way of waking up Glen Johnson and saying you've got to listen to what we're telling you. All this talk of the Liverpool way is OK, but they conceded 50 goals in 38 matches. you're right there okey, he was undoubtedly the weak link in the "Liverpool way" this season
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Post by vahl on Jun 4, 2014 15:29:39 GMT
What I find more baffling is, why would he play this team against Ecuador and not Honduras. Would it not be more beneficial for us to play our best team against Ecuador? Ecuador are not so bad as it happens and are certainly closer to the level of Uruguay than Honduras are.
Surely he can't still be iffing and arring about the team?
Jagielka could do with game time and yet he wont play? At the age of 32 we know what Lambert can do (I also fear that playing Lambert will automatically encourage us to play in a specific way (long) far too often, which is always going to get found out.) Milner at right-back is a car crash waiting to happen but will be interesting to see. No Raheem Sterling again?
None of Woy's decisions makes sense this close to a World Cup. Square pegs in round holes again.
Hopefully there's a method to his madness.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 4, 2014 15:34:18 GMT
What I find more baffling is, why would he play this team against Ecuador and not Honduras. Would it not be more beneficial for us to play our best team against Ecuador? Ecuador are not so bad as it happens and are certainly closer to the level of Uruguay than Honduras are. Surely he can't still be iffing and arring about the team? Jagielka could do with game time and yet he wont play? At the age of 32 we know what Lambert can do (I also fear that playing Lambert will automatically encourage us to play in a specific way (long) far too often, which is always going to get found out.) Milner at right-back is a car crash waiting to happen but will be interesting to see. No Raheem Sterling again? None of Woy's decicions makes sense this close to a World Cup. Square pegs in round holes again. Hopefully there's a method to his madness. same happens at every WC though mate...we play shit teams and the managers give the whole squad a run out in those friendlies. it's not trying new formations,strategies etc. it's just keeping all the players interested, keeping them fresh and making them all feel they're part of the setup to get some togetherness. it's not as if this is the first time we've fielded a B side with dodgy formations in a pre WC friendly against a shit second rate side. we've had 2 years to play against teams that are the same quality as Ururguay and for him to nail down his starting 11 and strategy, this is a nice, easy warm up against a crap side so players get a run out but no-one gets injured. no need for people to read anything more into it than that IMO
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Post by Deleted on Jun 4, 2014 15:36:22 GMT
Think Milner could offer more mobility and attacking threat than an unfit Jones while still doing all the covering work.
Worth a go.
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Post by vahl on Jun 4, 2014 15:39:58 GMT
What I find more baffling is, why would he play this team against Ecuador and not Honduras. Would it not be more beneficial for us to play our best team against Ecuador? Ecuador are not so bad as it happens and are certainly closer to the level of Uruguay than Honduras are. Surely he can't still be iffing and arring about the team? Jagielka could do with game time and yet he wont play? At the age of 32 we know what Lambert can do (I also fear that playing Lambert will automatically encourage us to play in a specific way (long) far too often, which is always going to get found out.) Milner at right-back is a car crash waiting to happen but will be interesting to see. No Raheem Sterling again? None of Woy's decicions makes sense this close to a World Cup. Square pegs in round holes again. Hopefully there's a method to his madness. same happens at every WC though mate...we play shit teams and the managers give the whole squad a run out in those friendlies. it's not trying new formations,strategies etc. it's just keeping all the players interested, keeping them fresh and making them all feel they're part of the setup to get some togetherness. it's not as if this is the first time we've fielded a B side with dodgy formations in a pre WC friendly against a shit second rate side. we've had 2 years to play against teams that are the same quality as Ururguay and for him to nail down his starting 11 and strategy, this is a nice, easy warm up against a crap side so players get a run out but no-one gets injured. no need for people to read anything more into it than that IMO I do get what you're saying. I am more inclined to go with your view as well, based on the fact I'm sat scratching my head at Woy.
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Post by pyrus on Jun 4, 2014 15:41:49 GMT
And today's musical interlude is brought to you by Lily Allen's unofficial World Cup song as leaked on SoundCloud: Bass Like Home
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Post by Deleted on Jun 4, 2014 15:48:02 GMT
same happens at every WC though mate...we play shit teams and the managers give the whole squad a run out in those friendlies. it's not trying new formations,strategies etc. it's just keeping all the players interested, keeping them fresh and making them all feel they're part of the setup to get some togetherness. it's not as if this is the first time we've fielded a B side with dodgy formations in a pre WC friendly against a shit second rate side. we've had 2 years to play against teams that are the same quality as Ururguay and for him to nail down his starting 11 and strategy, this is a nice, easy warm up against a crap side so players get a run out but no-one gets injured. no need for people to read anything more into it than that IMO I do get what you're saying. I am more inclined to go with your view as well, based on the fact I'm sat scratching my head at Woy. that's what i'm saying though...the media have built up this "What's Roy playing at?" despite them knowing full well that every England manager does it before World Cups in 2010 when we played Mexico the likes of Ledley King, Leighton Baines (who was nowehre near an england started back then), Walcott (same as Baines), Adam johnson, Tom Huddlestone all played in 2002 when we played Korea as a warm up we had Nigel Martyn in goal and Danny Mills, Martin Keown, Trevor Sinclair, Danny Murphy and Darius Vassell playing it's not a one off occurrence or something exclusive to Woy
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Post by str8outtahampton on Jun 4, 2014 16:05:24 GMT
And today's musical interlude is brought to you by Lily Allen's unofficial World Cup song as leaked on SoundCloud: Bass Like Home Thanks Mr Pyrus. Not quite up to the standard of her father's chef d'oeuvre World in Motion. But better than many of the other offerings. My personal all time favourite is "I Have a Dream" by John Gordon "Gregory's Girl" Sinclair, to accompany Scotland's campaign in Spain 82. Honourable mention for Germany's "Fussball ist nach Hause angekommen", however.
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Post by MarkWolstanton on Jun 4, 2014 18:23:39 GMT
The only thing lacking with Rooney is match time. He is renowned for taking a while to get going after a lay-off. Fergie stated that he was the sort of player who had to be playing regularly to get the best out of him. Tonight's game is all about getting on pitch leg time into the players who need it. Nothing more, nothing less. Rooney will start every game in the middle and where he can be most influential as should our best player. Imagining he is not or anything else will happen is frankly people kidding themselves in my opinion.
Really disagree with you here Mark.
In my (and many other people's) opinion Rooney neither has the stamina nor the discipline to play in the hole for England in a 4-2-3-1, you either have him leading the line in a 4-3-3 or you don't play him at all - as has already been debated at length on this thread.
Its all about opinions Paul but for me if Rooney is lacking in stamina in any shape or form he has done a damn good job of hiding it for a long, long time. We are talking about the player who is constantly seen (and even criticised) for chasing back as he does, aren't we? The discipline thing is different. He has an edge that many top players possess and arguably it is a way in which they are defined. It may have all been debated on this thread but at this point I doubt it is a topic of conversation within the England squad. Ive lost track of the number of England's best players who have their right to a starting place challenged by a few over the years,
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Post by Paul Spencer on Jun 4, 2014 18:38:24 GMT
Really disagree with you here Mark.
In my (and many other people's) opinion Rooney neither has the stamina nor the discipline to play in the hole for England in a 4-2-3-1, you either have him leading the line in a 4-3-3 or you don't play him at all - as has already been debated at length on this thread.
Its all about opinions Paul but for me if Rooney is lacking in stamina in any shape or form he has done a damn good job of hiding it for a long, long time. We are talking about the player who is constantly seen (and even criticised) for chasing back as he does, aren't we? The discipline thing is different. He has an edge that many top players possess and arguably it is a way in which they are defined. It may have all been debated on this thread but at this point I doubt it is a topic of conversation within the England squad. Ive lost track of the number of England's best players who have their right to a starting place challenged by a few over the years,
I'd just be going over old ground discussed earlier in the thread mate - I think Rooney should start but I think he should be leading the line not playing in the hole, it's been debated to death, so probably best not to go over it again.
Anyway, the match is about to start!
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Post by FullerMagic on Jun 5, 2014 10:12:22 GMT
6.A player listed on the final list may only be replaced in the event of serious injury up until 24 hours before the kick-off of his team’s first match. The replacement players do not need to be limited to the release list.
If the Ox is ruled out, will Woy go with
a midfielder from the stand-by players (Cleverley, Carrick) a player who's with the squad and in full-training (Stones, Flanagan)
or take a punt on a more like-for-like Ox replacement from outside the initial 30 like Nathan Redmond who was in full training as recently as last week with the U-21s?
Smart money seems to be on Stones amongst the press.
Shame as Ox seemed to be flying last night. He's as injury-cursed as his dad.
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Post by vahl on Jun 5, 2014 10:19:53 GMT
6.A player listed on the final list may only be replaced in the event of serious injury up until 24 hours before the kick-off of his team’s first match. The replacement players do not need to be limited to the release list.If the Ox is ruled out, will Woy go with a midfielder from the stand-by players (Cleverley, Carrick) a player who's with the squad and in full-training (Stones, Flanagan) or take a punt on a more like-for-like Ox replacement from outside the initial 30 like Nathan Redmond who was in full training as recently as last week with the U-21s? Smart money seems to be on Stones amongst the press. Shame as Ox seemed to be flying last night. He's as injury-cursed as his dad. It wouldn't surprise me if Carrick is the one who gets the nod. It's so Hodgson.
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Post by jimmygscfc on Jun 5, 2014 10:41:17 GMT
All that I gleaned from last night is that Jack Wilshere should never start a game for England....ever. I can't get over how absolutely crap he was and is.
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Post by gonk on Jun 5, 2014 12:13:44 GMT
For anyone who does match stats ,how long does he spend on is arse in a match.
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Post by FullerMagic on Jun 5, 2014 13:21:45 GMT
Wonder if they'll replace him? Could've been worse
Sky Sources: Alex Oxlade-Chamberlain ruled out for 10 days to 3 weeks with knee injury
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2014 13:33:29 GMT
Wonder if they'll replace him? Could've been worse Sky Sources: Alex Oxlade-Chamberlain ruled out for 10 days to 3 weeks with knee injuryif that means he'll be fully fit again in a couple of weeks ago then i don't see the need to swap him really, Sterling can do just as good a job in his place anyway. swapping him with the likes of Carrick or cleverley changes the whole setup then as neither are as direct as Ox and we have to start mucking about and trying new tactics with just a week to go. if he's going to be ok by the last 2 group games or so then i'd keep him in
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