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Post by Deleted on Apr 30, 2013 14:38:14 GMT
jstoke you're right...my bad i just feel the gamble may have paid off if he'd actually bloody tried any of them out at some point
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Post by Deleted on Apr 30, 2013 14:38:30 GMT
People talk about producing young players as if all you need is a good coaching and scouting structure. Although that will help it is not as simple as that. In the 1950's Man. United produced great young players, the average age of the team that won two Division 1 titles was 22. In the 60's, 70's and 80's they produced few young players and were mainly a buying club. Then in the 90's came a batch of talented youngsters and United went from strength to strength. Over the last few years though they have again been a buying club in the main. For me the message here is that even the best clubs cannot produce top class youngsters on a regular basis and so clubs like Stoke would find that even harder to do. Tony Pulis is right in my view that you shouldn't throw money at the Academy, at the expense of the first team squad. So because Man Utd's current crop isn't as good as their crop of 20 years ago, no other team can produce any decent youngsters. What planet are you on?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 30, 2013 14:39:54 GMT
rob, calm down...this is geoff "Most of what i write comes straight from the pages of Wikipedia as i try in vain to be seen as some kind of Gary Neville footballing mastermind but in reality get pretty much everything i say completely wrong" 321 remember
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Post by Deleted on Apr 30, 2013 14:44:51 GMT
Wouldn't Arismendi, Cuvelier and Shea be classed as young players?
One thing I like about Cuvelier is his attitude, unlike the "last in, first out of training" types that we've had with us in the past...
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Post by Deleted on Apr 30, 2013 14:49:35 GMT
Wouldn't Arismendi, Cuvelier and Shea be classed as young players? One thing I like about Cuvelier is his attitude, unlike the "last in, first out of training" types that we've had with us in the past... Yep. Number of league appearances for Stoke between them?
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Post by boskampsflaps on Apr 30, 2013 14:49:58 GMT
If I was Coats I wouldn't take the risk and would keep TP in the job, considering that he's kept stoke in the league quite comfortably (maybe not this one but if we win another couple the table will look that way) every season. If I was coats I'd be wondering when it was going to warm up so I could take the summer off. Just a thought. He's probably warm enough with the amount of money he gets with Stoke staying in the prem
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Post by alster on Apr 30, 2013 14:53:20 GMT
If I was coats I'd be wondering when it was going to warm up so I could take the summer off. Just a thought. He's probably warm enough with the amount of money he gets with Stoke staying in the prem Last time I checked the pockets there was fook all in mine (coat).
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Post by geoff321 on Apr 30, 2013 14:57:13 GMT
rob,
If you read every word of my post you will see I say a good coaching and scouting system will help develop young players. The point I am making is that clubs can go decades without producing good young players though. Stoke themselves are a good example of this. In the 1970's there was Pejic, Skeels, Smith Bloor, Allen, Conroy, Marsh etc. All young and mainly local lads, but nothing like those young players has been produced since.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 30, 2013 14:59:02 GMT
Wouldn't Arismendi, Cuvier and Shea be classed as young players? One thing I like about Cuvier is his attitude, unlike the "last in, first out of training" types that we've had with us in the past... Yep. Number of league appearances for Stoke between them? Arismendi has gone, Cuvelier has been out on loan like most under 21s tend to do, Shea only joined this season. You don't just turn up as a young player and start playing for the first eleven, like I said before it's also about attitudes, Flo seems to be doing well in his loan spells which is encouraging..
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Post by Deleted on Apr 30, 2013 15:05:54 GMT
Yep. Number of league appearances for Stoke between them? Arismendi has gone, Cuvelier has been out on loan like most under 21s tend to do, Shea only joined this season. You don't just turn up as a young player and start playing for the first eleven, like I said before it's also about attitudes, Flo seems to be doing well in his loan spells which is encouraging.. With Pulis you rarely get further than that though. Players hungry to play don't want to risk stunting ther development waiting til they're 25. There's also an argument that how we play isn't great for a young player's development.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 30, 2013 15:06:56 GMT
rob, If you read every word of my post you will see I say a good coaching and scouting system will help develop young players. The point I am making is that clubs can go decades without producing good young players though. Stoke themselves are a good example of this. In the 1970's there was Pejic, Skeels, Smith Bloor, Allen, Conroy, Marsh etc. All young and mainly local lads, but nothing like those young players has been produced since. Of course it takes time Geoff. That doesn't mean it's not worth doing.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 30, 2013 15:09:46 GMT
Yep. Number of league appearances for Stoke between them? Arismendi has gone, Cuvelier has been out on loan like most under 21s tend to do, Shea only joined this season. You don't just turn up as a young player and start playing for the first eleven, like I said before it's also about attitudes, Flo seems to be doing well in his loan spells which is encouraging.. one thing you seem to be forgetting though Kryten.....these aren't players who have come up through the academy from the age of 11 and just haven't made the grade, they are players we brought in to play for Stoke! so how much longer does Cuvelier have to do well on loan for Kryten? not as if he's only been on loan for a month or two where he's done well is it but STILL not even a sniff of coming back to his club to be given an opportunity Arismendi is someone we paid money for so presumably a player Pulis liked the look of..again, not a player who graduated through the Stoke set up from an early age.this either spells awful business by buying a player who simply wasn't good enough or simply Pulis not knowing how to manage him..either way, a sad indictment on both our transfer AND youth strategy!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 30, 2013 15:17:55 GMT
God knows how many years it will take for any of the academy players to break through into the first team.....CRAZY.
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Post by alster on Apr 30, 2013 15:21:03 GMT
Arismendi has gone, Cuvelier has been out on loan like most under 21s tend to do, Shea only joined this season. You don't just turn up as a young player and start playing for the first eleven, like I said before it's also about attitudes, Flo seems to be doing well in his loan spells which is encouraging.. With Pulis you rarely get further than that though. Players hungry to play don't want to risk stunting ther development waiting til they're 25. There's also an argument that how we play isn't great for a young player's development. The way we play is not really great for any players development. Keepers and defenders are the most suited they're constantly under pressure and work on their positional discipline and other defensive qualities that are the sole focus of our team. Even then you've got to feel that the way they have to play to order hampers their development somewhat ie Shawcross. Even Bego to a certain extent is limited by having to keep punting the ball aimlessly upfield when better teams and International sides would be more likely to look for quick distribution to a full back. Creative/attacking players usually flounder and lose their way in a Pulis team, most end up leaving far worse players than when they signed. The man sucks the life out of football, footballers and football fans alike.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 30, 2013 15:28:08 GMT
Arismendi has gone, Cuvelier has been out on loan like most under 21s tend to do, Shea only joined this season. You don't just turn up as a young player and start playing for the first eleven, like I said before it's also about attitudes, Flo seems to be doing well in his loan spells which is encouraging.. With Pulis you rarely get further than that though. Players hungry to play don't want to risk stunting ther development waiting til they're 25. There's also an argument that how we play isn't great for a young player's development. He's actually given players younger than 25 a run in the team, I do agree with you about the style of play, the whole misconception about Shawcross's distribution being the most obvious. I'm not saying that everything's perfect, far from it but I think a few things are conveniently overlooked when criticizing the lack of younger players. God knows how many years it will take for any of the academy players to break through into the first team.....CRAZY. How long has this Premier League standard academy actually been setup?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 30, 2013 15:32:33 GMT
With Pulis you rarely get further than that though. Players hungry to play don't want to risk stunting ther development waiting til they're 25. There's also an argument that how we play isn't great for a young player's development. He's actually given players younger than 25 a run in the team, I do agree with you about the style of play, the whole misconception about Shawcross's distribution being the most obvious. I'm not saying that everything's perfect, far from it but I think a few things are conveniently overlooked when criticizing the lack of younger players. such as?? as has been pointed out regularly, the only "Young" players that have had regular run outs for the first team are players that Pulis initially tried to get rid of! and it still doesn't answer why we bring players like Arismendi and Cuvelier over her to play for Stoke then simply give them no chance whatsoever..if they weren't up to it then why did he bring them in? he may as well have just ignored them in the same way he ignores our own "Local" lads from the academy. i'm genuinely confused as to what it is exactly we're "Conveniently Overlooking" whilst you completely overlook the facts we've put forward?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 30, 2013 15:32:58 GMT
With Pulis you rarely get further than that though. Players hungry to play don't want to risk stunting ther development waiting til they're 25. There's also an argument that how we play isn't great for a young player's development. He's actually given players younger than 25 a run in the team, I do agree with you about the style of play, the whole misconception about Shawcross's distribution being the most obvious. I'm not saying that everything's perfect, far from it but I think a few things are conveniently overlooked when criticizing the lack of younger players. God knows how many years it will take for any of the academy players to break through into the first team.....CRAZY. How long has this Premier League standard academy been setup? It's pretty fair to say he prizes experience much, much more highly than youth.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 30, 2013 16:04:17 GMT
He's actually given players younger than 25 a run in the team, I do agree with you about the style of play, the whole misconception about Shawcross's distribution being the most obvious. I'm not saying that everything's perfect, far from it but I think a few things are conveniently overlooked when criticizing the lack of younger players. How long has this Premier League standard academy been setup? It's pretty fair to say he prizes experience much, much more highly than youth. There's no doubt about that, but at least he's started looking players under 30 ; ) Young players aren't going to jump into the side playing at the top level and excel straight away, but i get the impression that some here seem to think that.. Shotton is a good example of this, he's actually improved a lot this season at RB by simply playing regularly, but when he's made mistakes he's been branded as the worst player to ever wear a Stoke shirt on here many times over, yet he's got less than two seasons of Premiership experience under his belt..
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Post by jstoke7 on Apr 30, 2013 16:33:39 GMT
It's pretty fair to say he prizes experience much, much more highly than youth. There's no doubt about that, but at least he's started looking players under 30 ; ) Young players aren't going to jump into the side playing at the top level and excel straight away, but i get the impression that some here seem to think that.. Shotton is a good example of this, he's actually improved a lot this season at RB by simply playing regularly, but when he's made mistakes he's been branded as the worst player to ever wear a Stoke shirt on here many times over, yet he's got less than two seasons of Premiership experience under his belt.. And if he had been given this experience at a younger age when he was in his earlier stages of developing as a player he may have been an even better player. Just a thought like... Of course young players aren't necessarily going to jump the the top level, but generally they are given sub appearances, little chances to show their stuff, to prove to the manager they are good enough, or when a player is injured they are given a chance. Pulis just doesn't do this, and has no interest in doing this.
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Post by Old School Stokie on Apr 30, 2013 16:34:33 GMT
Better the devil you know. Peter Coates Cautious Stability means a great deal - Everton & Man U - Instability uncertainly - take your pick If it aint broke don't fix it - would you risk your money? TP - has delivered from a business plan and business strategy Any Gilt Edge replacements? Even Benitez struggled at times with a pot of gold at his disposal Who would have thought MON would ever be sacked! On balance there is only one common sense decision for next season. Only thing that might change that is PC's siblings who lets face it are getting richer by the minute and are in the gambling business. They (Denise by all accounts) made a brave decision in the direction of Bet365, a decision that was not without risks. The decision will not be made lightly and will take NO ACCOUNT OF WHAT PEOPLE SAY ON HERE or at the ground from supporters
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Post by boskampsflaps on Apr 30, 2013 16:38:15 GMT
He's actually given players younger than 25 a run in the team, I do agree with you about the style of play, the whole misconception about Shawcross's distribution being the most obvious. I'm not saying that everything's perfect, far from it but I think a few things are conveniently overlooked when criticizing the lack of younger players. such as?? as has been pointed out regularly, the only "Young" players that have had regular run outs for the first team are players that Pulis initially tried to get rid of! and it still doesn't answer why we bring players like Arismendi and Cuvelier over her to play for Stoke then simply give them no chance whatsoever..if they weren't up to it then why did he bring them in? he may as well have just ignored them in the same way he ignores our own "Local" lads from the academy. i'm genuinely confused as to what it is exactly we're "Conveniently Overlooking" whilst you completely overlook the facts we've put forward? I'm not overly convinced Arismendi was his signing tbh, also did Pulis sign Cuvelier or was it one of the youth coaches etc? I don't really know how things work, who's responsible for signing the kids etc.
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Post by march4 on Apr 30, 2013 16:39:57 GMT
If it was me, then TP would leave the dugout at the end of the season, but who to bring in is the puzzle. Big Sam appears to be staying at WHam and he would be my first choice.
However, I don't think Peter Coates is going to want any extra hassle at his age and I expect his decision will be; TP to stay in post with Kempy replacing JR and a new face brought in as Assistant Manager.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 30, 2013 16:58:17 GMT
If it was me, then TP would leave the dugout at the end of the season, but who to bring in is the puzzle. Big Sam appears to be staying at WHam and he would be my first choice. However, I don't think Peter Coates is going to want any extra hassle at his age and I expect his decision will be; TP to stay in post with Kempy replacing JR and a new face brought in as Assistant Manager. What would be the point of that march?
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Post by surreystokie on Apr 30, 2013 18:33:18 GMT
Who are these people who genuinely believe that TP will actually listen to PC or anyone else? Are you for real?
I was wondering,last night, what on earth he and PC were thinking, as Villa's kiddies rampaged all over Sunderland. TP should have been at least considering a change, at worst utterly embarrassed. He can't play a fit team, never mind a talented one and seems not to understand his own shortcomings. Above all he is the top PL manager for sheer stubbornness. And that will be his undoing.
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Post by march4 on Apr 30, 2013 18:50:15 GMT
If it was me, then TP would leave the dugout at the end of the season, but who to bring in is the puzzle. Big Sam appears to be staying at WHam and he would be my first choice. However, I don't think Peter Coates is going to want any extra hassle at his age and I expect his decision will be; TP to stay in post with Kempy replacing JR and a new face brought in as Assistant Manager. What would be the point of that march? Change for the sake of it Rob. I think there should be a change in manager, but I am predicting what a man approaching 80 years of age will do when I am approaching the same landmark. I'm also thinking of the most recent statements to come out of the club. I sense they are preparing us for this sort of announcement.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 30, 2013 18:56:29 GMT
What would be the point of that march? Change for the sake of it Rob. I think there should be a change in manager, but I am predicting what a man approaching 80 years of age will do when I am approaching the same landmark. I'm also thinking of the most recent statements to come out of the club. I sense they are preparing us for this sort of announcement. They seem to be preparing the ground for an altogether bigger change march, involving the manager.
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Post by spongebobflathead on Apr 30, 2013 18:58:49 GMT
The last telling statement that came from Coates was along the lines of " tony pulis has been here for seven years and i think almost everyone would say they have been seven good years " this was at a time when we couldn't buy a win , now he's delivered another year of prem football is Coates going to sack him ? Honestly !
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Post by spongebobflathead on Apr 30, 2013 19:01:02 GMT
The last telling statement that came from Coates was along the lines of " tony pulis has been here for seven years and i think almost everyone would say they have been seven good years " this was at a time when we couldn't buy a win , now he's delivered another year of prem football is Coates going to sack him ? Honestly ! Edit : he hardly sounds like a man who wants his pound of flesh , does he ?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 30, 2013 19:01:28 GMT
The last telling statement that came from Coates was along the lines of " tony pulis has been here for seven years and i think almost everyone would say they have been seven good years " this was at a time when we couldn't buy a win , now he's delivered another year of prem football is Coates going to sack him ? Honestly ! So what's going to happen in the summer Spongy?
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Post by spongebobflathead on Apr 30, 2013 19:12:52 GMT
In my opinion rob , I think Coates is too calculated to gamble on giving him the chop !
I think he will give him another year , I just haven't seen enough compelling evidence to the contrary rob !
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