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Post by geoff321 on Apr 23, 2013 15:17:35 GMT
thesandbankskid,
It was not me who mentioned Schalke 04. Look in the present financial set up in football it would in my opinion be almost impossible for Stoke to finish in the top four. If you went back to the days of a maximum wage that might alter things significantly, but that won't happen. In Italy, Spain, England and most other major leagues, just a few big clubs dominate every year. I wish that could change but it is highly unlikely.
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Post by dozintheseventees on Apr 23, 2013 15:20:33 GMT
In terms of size of club, support and ability to attract players, Schalke are MASSIVE compared to Stoke. Moyes has stated his desire to manage abroad and has specifically mentioned Germany. It's not just about 'winning things'.
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Post by thesandbankskid on Apr 23, 2013 15:23:32 GMT
Massive spending budgets? At first glance maybe, the bigger picture says it isn't. If we want to stay in the Premiership then Moyes will as good as guarantee it along with the £60M T.V revenue a year that comes with it, so where is the "massive Spending" if we give him say £150M over 5 years? There would still be £150M remaining. Massive spending is keeping someone like Pulis who hasn't got a clue of what to do with it but continues to spunk it in the hope something will stick. So £150 Million on players? How much on wages for these 'top' players? How much on all the other 'hidden costs' of signing top players? And all of this assumes success, which is NEVER guaranteed. Sorry mate, for a club like Stoke it's unrealistic talk and pretty dangerous at worst. All quite apart from the fact that Moyes will go to a bigger club than Stoke if he moves at all. We have just given Pulis £100Million over 5 years and that's without the increased revenue? I do think it is fairly safe to say Moyes would do more than keep with that.
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Post by dozintheseventees on Apr 23, 2013 15:32:03 GMT
So £150 Million on players? How much on wages for these 'top' players? How much on all the other 'hidden costs' of signing top players? And all of this assumes success, which is NEVER guaranteed. Sorry mate, for a club like Stoke it's unrealistic talk and pretty dangerous at worst. All quite apart from the fact that Moyes will go to a bigger club than Stoke if he moves at all. We have just given Pulis £100Million over 5 years and that's without the increased revenue? I do think it is fairly safe to say Moyes would do more than keep with that. So, despite our Chairman stating publicly that our spending over the past 5 years is UNSUSTAINABLE for a club of our size and that we need to be cutting our cloth accordingly, you feel that a massive 50% INCREASE in that spending and (I assume) a huge hike in our wage bill since we will be getting better quality players, is a reasonable way to go? It's not going to happen and, for the sake of the club, I'm glad it isn't.
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Post by ohbottom on Apr 23, 2013 15:39:40 GMT
So £150 Million on players? How much on wages for these 'top' players? How much on all the other 'hidden costs' of signing top players? And all of this assumes success, which is NEVER guaranteed. Sorry mate, for a club like Stoke it's unrealistic talk and pretty dangerous at worst. All quite apart from the fact that Moyes will go to a bigger club than Stoke if he moves at all. We have just given Pulis £100Million over 5 years and that's without the increased revenue? I do think it is fairly safe to say Moyes would do more than keep with that. I can't understand why so many people assume Stoke will suddenly be swimming with cash if we stay up. Yes, there is a massive increase in TV revenue. But right from the first days of the PL and the first big non-terrestrial TV deals, history shows that every time there's a new, bigger TV deal, the extra cash quickly gets swallowed up by increased wage bills, inflated transfer fees and increased payments to agents. This is why nearly every PL club operates at a loss, and will continue to do so. Yes Pulis has been given £100m to spend, Coates / B365 have subsidised Stoke at least £50m-£60m in that time. Coates has gone on record numerous times saying that's not sustainable. So if you say that just because we'll get £XX million more from TV means we can give a new manager £XX million more to spend, then I'm afraid you'll be sadly disappointed.
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Post by thesandbankskid on Apr 23, 2013 16:02:28 GMT
We have just given Pulis £100Million over 5 years and that's without the increased revenue? I do think it is fairly safe to say Moyes would do more than keep with that. So, despite our Chairman stating publicly that our spending over the past 5 years is UNSUSTAINABLE for a club of our size and that we need to be cutting our cloth accordingly, you feel that a massive 50% INCREASE in that spending and (I assume) a huge hike in our wage bill since we will be getting better quality players, is a reasonable way to go? It's not going to happen and, for the sake of the club, I'm glad it isn't. As long as we have more coming in than going out it's 'cushty' as Derek would say. I think somebody needs to be asked some questions if in the next 5 years we will be needing to cut our cloth accordingly from our current position given the revenue is about to double.
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Post by mightymike on Apr 23, 2013 16:05:27 GMT
We have just given Pulis £100Million over 5 years and that's without the increased revenue? I do think it is fairly safe to say Moyes would do more than keep with that. Premier League revenue > Championship revenue
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Post by stokeramblers on Apr 23, 2013 16:10:46 GMT
Some people's knowledge of football on the continent is pretty shocking. Schalke are a huge club compared to us and have a history littered with honours. But who are they compared to the mighty potters eh! ;D
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Post by dozintheseventees on Apr 23, 2013 16:14:36 GMT
So, despite our Chairman stating publicly that our spending over the past 5 years is UNSUSTAINABLE for a club of our size and that we need to be cutting our cloth accordingly, you feel that a massive 50% INCREASE in that spending and (I assume) a huge hike in our wage bill since we will be getting better quality players, is a reasonable way to go? It's not going to happen and, for the sake of the club, I'm glad it isn't. As long as we have more coming in than going out it's 'cushty' as Derek would say. I think somebody needs to be asked some questions if in the next 5 years we will be needing to cut our cloth accordingly from our current position given the revenue is about to double. Not that simple mate and WAGES are the big problem. Take Samba, for instance......decent enough player with a £10 Million transfer fee but wages well in excess of £100,000 a week. Over a 4 year contract that is a total outlay over the 4 years of well over £30 Million on ONE PLAYER, not counting any 'other' financial outlay involved in signing the player. THAT's why QPR face financial meltdown next season and it's a road we need to steer well clear of.
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Post by march4 on Apr 23, 2013 16:18:59 GMT
Don't look any further than former managers.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Apr 23, 2013 16:20:01 GMT
So £150 Million on players? How much on wages for these 'top' players? How much on all the other 'hidden costs' of signing top players? And all of this assumes success, which is NEVER guaranteed. Sorry mate, for a club like Stoke it's unrealistic talk and pretty dangerous at worst. All quite apart from the fact that Moyes will go to a bigger club than Stoke if he moves at all. We have just given Pulis £100Million over 5 years and that's without the increased revenue? I do think it is fairly safe to say Moyes would do more than keep with that. You're not looking it at it from Moyes' point of view though Pasa. On a personal level, what could he ever hope to achieve at Stoke that he hasn't already achieved at Everton? If he took us to our absolute zenith in terms of potential, we'd be looking at 6th or 7th place finishes - he's done that. If he went to Schalke he'd become a Champions League manager instantly and would be able to measure just how good he is against the cream of Europe's other managers.
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Post by thesandbankskid on Apr 23, 2013 16:21:51 GMT
As long as we have more coming in than going out it's 'cushty' as Derek would say. I think somebody needs to be asked some questions if in the next 5 years we will be needing to cut our cloth accordingly from our current position given the revenue is about to double. Not that simple mate and WAGES are the big problem. Take Samba, for instance......decent enough player with a £10 Million transfer fee but wages well in excess of £100,000 a week. Over a 4 year contract that is a total outlay over the 4 years of well over £30 Million on ONE PLAYER, not counting any 'other' financial outlay involved in signing the player. THAT's why QPR face financial meltdown next season and it's a road we need to steer well clear of. That's now, Samba arrived at Blackburn as an unknown on I would imagine less than a 3rd of that figure, it's about getting the right manager who will find such players, coincidentally Mark Hughes is no mug at this either, as he was the one who bought him to England in the first place wheras TP has been handing out lovely contracts to average Premiership nobodies. It's simple really you have a clause in players contracts who are the bigger earners that says upon a relegation they will be released from the club as a free agent. Where is the loss, afterall it was the increased Premiership revenue that bought them in the first place? Or am I missing something?
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Post by thesandbankskid on Apr 23, 2013 16:23:21 GMT
Who is to say Moyes is what Schalke are looking for?
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Post by Paul Spencer on Apr 23, 2013 16:25:20 GMT
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Post by mightymike on Apr 23, 2013 16:26:56 GMT
"It's simple really you have a clause in players contracts who are the bigger earners that says upon a relegation they will be released from the club as a free agent. Where is the loss, afterall it was the increased Premiership revenue that bought them in the first place? Or am I missing something?"
Why would you let a £10million asset leave for nothing? Surely they would be better off selling him for his value?
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Post by dozintheseventees on Apr 23, 2013 16:27:30 GMT
Not that simple mate and WAGES are the big problem. Take Samba, for instance......decent enough player with a £10 Million transfer fee but wages well in excess of £100,000 a week. Over a 4 year contract that is a total outlay over the 4 years of well over £30 Million on ONE PLAYER, not counting any 'other' financial outlay involved in signing the player. THAT's why QPR face financial meltdown next season and it's a road we need to steer well clear of. That's now, Samba arrived at Blackburn as an unknown on I would imagine less than a 3rd of that figure, it's about getting the right manager who will find such players, coincidentally Mark Hughes is no mug at this either, as he was the one who bought him to England in the first place wheras TP has been handing out lovely contracts to average Premiership nobodies. It's simple really you have a clause in players contracts who are the bigger earners that says upon a relegation they will be released from the club as a free agent. Where is the loss, afterall it was the increased Premiership revenue that bought them in the first place? Or am I missing something? I think you are massively over-estimating players' willingness to write off 2 or 3 years of a huge contract. I doubt any top player would sign that kind of contract. They want the best of both worlds mate i.e a watertight 4 year contract on crazy money but a clause that allows them to leave on relegation PROVIDED they get all that they are owed. The only hope the selling club have is that they can do some kind of 'deal' with the buying club to slightly soften the massive loss they have to take.
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Post by thesandbankskid on Apr 23, 2013 16:28:04 GMT
We have just given Pulis £100Million over 5 years and that's without the increased revenue? I do think it is fairly safe to say Moyes would do more than keep with that. You're not looking it at it from Moyes' point of view though Pasa. On a personal level, what could he ever hope to achieve at Stoke that he hasn't already achieved at Everton? If he took us to our absolute zenith in terms of potential, we'd be looking at 6th or 7th place finishes - he's done that. If he went to Schalke he'd become a Champions League manager instantly and would be able to measure just how good he is against the cream of Europe's other managers. So where is the scope for Moyes to improve Schalke if he will become an instant Champions League manager with them, they are hardly likely to win it are they and if they are a ~Champions League club allready then they have to be doing well in the Bundesliga, so he is on a hiding to nothing whereas at Stoke with good backing he will only go one way.
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Post by thesandbankskid on Apr 23, 2013 16:30:25 GMT
"It's simple really you have a clause in players contracts who are the bigger earners that says upon a relegation they will be released from the club as a free agent. Where is the loss, afterall it was the increased Premiership revenue that bought them in the first place? Or am I missing something?"Why would you let a £10million asset leave for nothing? Surely they would be better off selling him for his value? If they and there wages become a possible lead weight around the ankles of a relegated club it would be only sensible to cut your losses and if not for free sell them at a fraction of their market value to get them off the wage bill. It's down to bad planning that QPR will find themselves deep in the shit, not because they bought the players but because they have no clauses in their contracts.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Apr 23, 2013 16:31:31 GMT
You're not looking it at it from Moyes' point of view though Pasa. On a personal level, what could he ever hope to achieve at Stoke that he hasn't already achieved at Everton? If he took us to our absolute zenith in terms of potential, we'd be looking at 6th or 7th place finishes - he's done that. If he went to Schalke he'd become a Champions League manager instantly and would be able to measure just how good he is against the cream of Europe's other managers. So where is the scope for Moyes to improve Schalke if he will become an instant Champions League manager with them, they are hardly likely to win it are they and if they are a ~Champions League club allready then they have to be doing well in the Bundesliga, so he is on a hiding to nothing whereas at Stoke with good backing he will only go one way. What a crazy logic. That's like saying if he was offered the ManU job he should turn it down because he wouldn't be able to improve them.
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Post by dozintheseventees on Apr 23, 2013 16:32:31 GMT
You're not looking it at it from Moyes' point of view though Pasa. On a personal level, what could he ever hope to achieve at Stoke that he hasn't already achieved at Everton? If he took us to our absolute zenith in terms of potential, we'd be looking at 6th or 7th place finishes - he's done that. If he went to Schalke he'd become a Champions League manager instantly and would be able to measure just how good he is against the cream of Europe's other managers. So where is the scope for Moyes to improve Schalke if he will become an instant Champions League manager with them, they are hardly likely to win it are they and if they are a ~Champions League club allready then they have to be doing well in the Bundesliga, so he is on a hiding to nothing whereas at Stoke with good backing he will only go one way. He will have only "Gone one way" by joining them mate and, as Paul rightly points out, even if he takes us as high as is reasonably possible.....he's already done that at a bigger club than us.
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Post by thesandbankskid on Apr 23, 2013 16:33:00 GMT
That's now, Samba arrived at Blackburn as an unknown on I would imagine less than a 3rd of that figure, it's about getting the right manager who will find such players, coincidentally Mark Hughes is no mug at this either, as he was the one who bought him to England in the first place wheras TP has been handing out lovely contracts to average Premiership nobodies. It's simple really you have a clause in players contracts who are the bigger earners that says upon a relegation they will be released from the club as a free agent. Where is the loss, afterall it was the increased Premiership revenue that bought them in the first place? Or am I missing something? I think you are massively over-estimating players' willingness to write off 2 or 3 years of a huge contract. I doubt any top player would sign that kind of contract. They want the best of both worlds mate i.e a watertight 4 year contract on crazy money but a clause that allows them to leave on relegation PROVIDED they get all that they are owed. The only hope the selling club have is that they can do some kind of 'deal' with the buying club to slightly soften the massive loss they have to take. Who said anything about 'Huge contracts' anyway? Why not stick with the increased signing on fee like we have been doing. I personally wouldn't want any player at Stoke earning £100k + a week, it's a pisstake to the average working man. I highly doubt anybody at Everton earns that and that is down to sensible management.
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Post by thesandbankskid on Apr 23, 2013 16:35:43 GMT
So where is the scope for Moyes to improve Schalke if he will become an instant Champions League manager with them, they are hardly likely to win it are they and if they are a ~Champions League club allready then they have to be doing well in the Bundesliga, so he is on a hiding to nothing whereas at Stoke with good backing he will only go one way. What a crazy logic. That's like saying if he was offered the ManU job he should turn it down because he wouldn't be able to improve them. Yes maybe so, he won't be offered the Man U job anyway Mourhinio will go there, guaranteed. Even so, I agree he would take it. Ity depends what floats his boat, if it was me I'd like the opportunity to develop a club with a good board and nice transfer kitty than be an overnight Champions League manager.
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Post by thesandbankskid on Apr 23, 2013 16:37:47 GMT
So where is the scope for Moyes to improve Schalke if he will become an instant Champions League manager with them, they are hardly likely to win it are they and if they are a ~Champions League club allready then they have to be doing well in the Bundesliga, so he is on a hiding to nothing whereas at Stoke with good backing he will only go one way. He will have only "Gone one way" by joining them mate and, as Paul rightly points out, even if he takes us as high as is reasonably possible.....he's already done that at a bigger club than us. All I'm going to say to this is no champions league club has come in for him yet, so what makes you so sure one will? Are you reading this Spencer?
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Post by Paul Spencer on Apr 23, 2013 16:39:57 GMT
What a crazy logic. That's like saying if he was offered the ManU job he should turn it down because he wouldn't be able to improve them. Yes maybe so, he won't be offered the Man U job anyway Mourhinio will go there, guaranteed. Even so, I agree he would take it. Ity depends what floats his boat, if it was me I'd like the opportunity to develop a club with a good board and nice transfer kitty than be an overnight Champions League manager. It'd be like him being offered the Spurs job here mate. There'd be plenty of room for him to improve them - they could go on to win the Bundesliga for the first time in ages or he could take them deep in the Champions League. It's a miles more attractive proposition than coming to Stoke on virtually every level.
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Post by dozintheseventees on Apr 23, 2013 16:40:35 GMT
I think you are massively over-estimating players' willingness to write off 2 or 3 years of a huge contract. I doubt any top player would sign that kind of contract. They want the best of both worlds mate i.e a watertight 4 year contract on crazy money but a clause that allows them to leave on relegation PROVIDED they get all that they are owed. The only hope the selling club have is that they can do some kind of 'deal' with the buying club to slightly soften the massive loss they have to take. Who said anything about 'Huge contracts' anyway? Why not stick with the increased signing on fee like we have been doing. I personally wouldn't want any player at Stoke earning £100k + a week, it's a pisstake to the average working man. I highly doubt anybody at Everton earns that and that is down to sensible management. The end result is exactly the same. Crouch got a huge signing on fee so that we could proclaim to the world that we are paying him within our wage structure. It's all smoke and mirrors and Crouch moved to Stoke in a fantastic deal and a very expensive one for Stoke. Should he leave this summer we will have lost a huge amount of money on him and will have to ensure he is financially happy to accept another club's offer. This is exactly the point I'm trying to make. Good players want very good contracts or they don't sign for you (even if David Moyes is the manager).
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Post by thesandbankskid on Apr 23, 2013 16:46:45 GMT
Who said anything about 'Huge contracts' anyway? Why not stick with the increased signing on fee like we have been doing. I personally wouldn't want any player at Stoke earning £100k + a week, it's a pisstake to the average working man. I highly doubt anybody at Everton earns that and that is down to sensible management. The end result is exactly the same. Crouch got a huge signing on fee so that we could proclaim to the world that we are paying him within our wage structure. It's all smoke and mirrors and Crouch moved to Stoke in a fantastic deal and a very expensive one for Stoke. Should he leave this summer we will have lost a huge amount of money on him and will have to ensure he is financially happy to accept another club's offer. This is exactly the point I'm trying to make. Good players want very good contracts or they don't sign for you (even if David Moyes is the manager). Well Moyes has managed to get a squad full of very good players at Everton so how do you explain that then? Don't tell me they are on huge amounts of money at Everton because I'm not having it mate.
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Post by thesandbankskid on Apr 23, 2013 16:50:47 GMT
I think when you look at QPR and players on massive contracts you will find that they were on massive contracts because they sold their soles for a more than possible relegation. Why else do you sign for a Bottom of the League club if it's not for over inflated wages. The aim would be to make Stoke an attractive place to come (League standing & manager) and buy sensibly with players towards the end of their contracts who are not in the position to hold you to Ransom, simply because we would not be in the desperate position to need to pay it.
Common Sense really.
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Post by dozintheseventees on Apr 23, 2013 16:54:44 GMT
The end result is exactly the same. Crouch got a huge signing on fee so that we could proclaim to the world that we are paying him within our wage structure. It's all smoke and mirrors and Crouch moved to Stoke in a fantastic deal and a very expensive one for Stoke. Should he leave this summer we will have lost a huge amount of money on him and will have to ensure he is financially happy to accept another club's offer. This is exactly the point I'm trying to make. Good players want very good contracts or they don't sign for you (even if David Moyes is the manager). Well Moyes has managed to get a squad full of very good players at Everton so how do you explain that then? Don't tell me they are on huge amounts of money at Everton because I'm not having it mate. Well we'd soon find out if we tried to sign any one of about 8 of them mate. My bet is, we couldn't afford the wages they want, the length of contract on that sort of money or (least importantly) the transfer fee. Don't believe all the crap you hear about poor little Everton. They are a big club and will be paying good wages (well in excess of ours). They have paid good money for players several times but just can't compete with those who are prepared to pay more, and more often. I'm CERTAIN that the likes of Fellaini and Baines are on far more than any of our players but Everton will have to 'break the bank' in terms of wages to keep them this summer.
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Post by mickstupp on Apr 23, 2013 16:56:31 GMT
Don't look any further than former managers. Brian Little is coming back?
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Post by thesandbankskid on Apr 23, 2013 16:57:15 GMT
Well Moyes has managed to get a squad full of very good players at Everton so how do you explain that then? Don't tell me they are on huge amounts of money at Everton because I'm not having it mate. Well we'd soon find out if we tried to sign any one of about 8 of them mate. My bet is, we couldn't afford the wages they want, the length of contract on that sort of money or (least importantly) the transfer fee. Don't believe all the crap you hear about poor little Everton. They are a big club and will be paying good wages (well in excess of ours). They have paid good money for players several times but just can't compete with those who are prepared to pay more, and more often. We have signed 2 players, one for more than £8M and one for £8M, one of which we don't feel the need to play so we can't be that skint. Both come from Spurs who are renowned for a massive wage compared to ours. Also, again this is before the increased revenue which is going to double.
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