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Whelan
Jan 12, 2013 23:24:09 GMT
Post by Beardy200 on Jan 12, 2013 23:24:09 GMT
I appreciate that Rob but no risk passes are hardly enough to claim he has 'good distribution'. We could all make most of the passes he attempts. As i said, if you look at stats alone and don't take into account the difficulty then Carragher would be a better passer than Beckham. I think we both know that isn't the case. What makes Whelan a good player for us is his positioning and discipline and not his passing skills. He's no world beater when it comes to passing but people singling him out as shit at it don't know what they're talking about.I also don't think it's quite as easy as you're making out (Deano and even Rory, who I love to pieces, certainly make hard work of it). Our midfielders are given a remit and Glenn shines when he's given a bit more freedom. We can agree on that Rob. I just refuse to base my opinions on stats without looking deeper into them. I would never suggest that Rory and Deano are as good at passing as Whelan but i would also never look at stats and decide he can out-pass N'Zonzi. When Glenn is under pressure or attempts to try more difficult passes he is often found wanting.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2013 23:28:03 GMT
He's no world beater when it comes to passing but people singling him out as shit at it don't know what they're talking about.I also don't think it's quite as easy as you're making out (Deano and even Rory, who I love to pieces, certainly make hard work of it). Our midfielders are given a remit and Glenn shines when he's given a bit more freedom. We can agree on that Rob. I just refuse to base my opinions on stats without looking deeper into them. I would never suggest that Rory and Deano are as good at passing as Whelan but i would also never look at stats and decide he can out-pass N'Zonzi. When Glenn is under pressure or attempts to try more difficult passes he is often found wanting. Nzonzi's far and away the better player Beardy, I just take issue with the 'Whelan's not good enough' brigade when he's barely put a foot wrong this season and he's been criminally underrated over the past two seasons as well.
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Whelan
Jan 12, 2013 23:37:53 GMT
Post by Beardy200 on Jan 12, 2013 23:37:53 GMT
We can agree on that Rob. I just refuse to base my opinions on stats without looking deeper into them. I would never suggest that Rory and Deano are as good at passing as Whelan but i would also never look at stats and decide he can out-pass N'Zonzi. When Glenn is under pressure or attempts to try more difficult passes he is often found wanting. Nzonzi's far and away the better player Beardy, I just take issue with the 'Whelan's not good enough' brigade when he's barely put a foot wrong this season and he's been criminally underrated over the past two seasons as well. I agree again Rob but i would try and come up with something better than bare passing statistics which can be incredibly misleading if you rarely make any difficult ones. As i said, it's his positioning and discipline to follow the manager's instructions that get him on the team sheet and not his range of passing which definitely has it's limitations.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2013 23:40:52 GMT
Nzonzi's far and away the better player Beardy, I just take issue with the 'Whelan's not good enough' brigade when he's barely put a foot wrong this season and he's been criminally underrated over the past two seasons as well. I agree again Rob but i would try and come up with something better than bare passing statistics which can be incredibly misleading if you rarely make any difficult ones. As i said, it's his positioning and discipline to follow the manager's instructions that get him on the team sheet and not his range of passing which definitely has it's limitations. I think his range of passing is underrated as well to be honest, but given his job is to keep it simple and keep the ball and the stats suggest he does that I don't see the problem. I'm not arguing he's Glenn Hoddle, just that this idea that he's shit at passing and can't find another Stoke player is total rubbish. If the vast vast majority of his passes - more than those of any other Stoke player - find their target, however basic, than that obviously isn't the case.
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Whelan
Jan 12, 2013 23:43:46 GMT
Post by fca47 on Jan 12, 2013 23:43:46 GMT
Not mobile enough, hasn't been bad this season but had a poor game today.
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Whelan
Jan 13, 2013 0:01:48 GMT
Post by werrington on Jan 13, 2013 0:01:48 GMT
Check the stats against the major sides in our 5 prem seasons....especially at home We do well against top sides at home however Whelan looks hopelessly outclassed when up against top players, wezza. I'm not advocating dropping him or anything but its painful to watch him against real good players. Again mate i ask you to look at the results against the major sides. Please tell me who has outclassed him?
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Whelan
Jan 13, 2013 0:07:08 GMT
Post by Beardy200 on Jan 13, 2013 0:07:08 GMT
I agree again Rob but i would try and come up with something better than bare passing statistics which can be incredibly misleading if you rarely make any difficult ones. As i said, it's his positioning and discipline to follow the manager's instructions that get him on the team sheet and not his range of passing which definitely has it's limitations. I think his range of passing is underrated as well to be honest, but given his job is to keep it simple and keep the ball and the stats suggest he does that I don't see the problem. I'm not arguing he's Glenn Hoddle, just that this idea that he's shit at passing and can't find another Stoke player is total rubbish. If the vast vast majority of his passes - more than those of any other Stoke player - find their target, however basic, than that obviously isn't the case. Does Whelan have a better passing accuracy rate than N'Zonzi? Yes Is Whelan a better passer than N'Zonzi? - No Is Carragher a better passer than Beckham? - No My point is stats are unreliable, nothing more and nothing less. You can have your argument with everybody else about how good Whelan is as we are agreeing on the rest. Just don't trot out the "he has the best statistics" line as some sort of proof because it isn't. You need to come up with something else. I can't keep rewording it and make it any clearer than that Rob. ;D
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Whelan
Jan 13, 2013 0:12:22 GMT
Post by y_oh_y_delilah on Jan 13, 2013 0:12:22 GMT
Fact is, he's not great but he isn't that bad either, he's, well, he's just Whelan.
There have been hundreds of better players over the years, but by the same token hundreds of worse players.
He's lucky because of the here and now, a player that fits the Pulis bill in midfield, a player that works hard, a player that doesn't score goals but first and foremost a player the manager can trust.
We won't mourn the passing of Glenn Whelan, but we won't be celebrating either, because well, he's just Whelan!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 13, 2013 10:34:01 GMT
I think his range of passing is underrated as well to be honest, but given his job is to keep it simple and keep the ball and the stats suggest he does that I don't see the problem. I'm not arguing he's Glenn Hoddle, just that this idea that he's shit at passing and can't find another Stoke player is total rubbish. If the vast vast majority of his passes - more than those of any other Stoke player - find their target, however basic, than that obviously isn't the case. Does Whelan have a better passing accuracy rate than N'Zonzi? Yes Is Whelan a better passer than N'Zonzi? - No Is Carragher a better passer than Beckham? - No My point is stats are unreliable, nothing more and nothing less. You can have your argument with everybody else about how good Whelan is as we are agreeing on the rest. Just don't trot out the "he has the best statistics" line as some sort of proof because it isn't. You need to come up with something else. I can't keep rewording it and make it any clearer than that Rob. ;D But I'm not using the stats to argue he's a great passer beardy. I'm using them to show he's not a shit one. I thought that was pretty clear as well?
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Whelan
Jan 13, 2013 12:49:48 GMT
Post by Beardy200 on Jan 13, 2013 12:49:48 GMT
Does Whelan have a better passing accuracy rate than N'Zonzi? Yes Is Whelan a better passer than N'Zonzi? - No Is Carragher a better passer than Beckham? - No My point is stats are unreliable, nothing more and nothing less. You can have your argument with everybody else about how good Whelan is as we are agreeing on the rest. Just don't trot out the "he has the best statistics" line as some sort of proof because it isn't. You need to come up with something else. I can't keep rewording it and make it any clearer than that Rob. ;D But I'm not using the stats to argue he's a great passer beardy. I'm using them to show he's not a shit one. I thought that was pretty clear as well? And i'm saying it proves nothing if the vast majority of them are very simple ones we could all make. Those should be struck off the list where statistical comparisons of passing ability are being made and only the more difficult ones should be counted. We can't do that so better to not use the stat at all. It's almost worthless apart from showing you how often a player gets on the ball. He completes lots of passes but his passing range is poor at this level i.e when he attempts more difficult or long range passes he gives it away too often. Also being better at it than Whitehead and Delap is of no value at all as that pair are arguably the 2 worst in the league. Stats or no stats - in my opinion his passing is well below average at this level but he has other assets to his game that have made him well worthy of his place all season.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 13, 2013 12:54:05 GMT
But I'm not using the stats to argue he's a great passer beardy. I'm using them to show he's not a shit one. I thought that was pretty clear as well? And i'm saying it proves nothing if the vast majority of them are very simple ones we could all make. Those should be struck off the list where statistical comparisons of passing ability are being made and only the more difficult ones should be counted (we can't do that so better to not use the stat at all). He completes lots of passes but his passing range is poor at this level i.e when he attempts more difficult or long range passes he gives it away too often. Also being better at it than Whitehead and Delap is of no value at all as that pair are arguably the 2 worst in the league. Stats or no stats - in my opinion his passing is well below average at this level but he has other assets to his game that have made him well worthy of his place all season. But he's not in the team for his 'range' beardy. He's not asked to ping it about. It's his job to keep it simple and he does - on the one hand you're saying they're passes we could all make but then you're saying being better than Rory and Deano means nothing - how does that work? So long as he's doing his job and regularly making those simple passes then it can't be argued that he's shit at passing.
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Whelan
Jan 13, 2013 12:55:47 GMT
Post by thehoof on Jan 13, 2013 12:55:47 GMT
He's not one of the 5 worst Stoke players ever, but he is desperately mediocre - poor touch, not a very accurate passer when he tries to pass forward (which does not happen often), offers no sort of attacking threat at all, and is reallly very slow. Lampard looked streets quicker, brighter and more inventive. He is what he is - an honest grafter that tries, but for £500k, that's all you can expect, and all that we get.
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Whelan
Jan 13, 2013 12:55:56 GMT
Post by AlbertTatlock on Jan 13, 2013 12:55:56 GMT
Whelan is a decent enough mid-table Championship player (although I can’t remember saying that too much about him when we were a mid-table championship side), he has the odd good game for us but I can honestly say he’s never put in a MOM performance IMO in the 5 years he’s been at Stoke. It’s one of those Pulis conundrums why he is almost an ever present in our team when we clearly have better players warming the bench or not even getting the opportunity to get on the bench. Pulis’ insistence on picking him for every match he’s fit for and never subbing him is one big reason we’re not moving forward as a team. Gouranga.
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Whelan
Jan 13, 2013 13:05:48 GMT
Post by Beardy200 on Jan 13, 2013 13:05:48 GMT
And i'm saying it proves nothing if the vast majority of them are very simple ones we could all make. Those should be struck off the list where statistical comparisons of passing ability are being made and only the more difficult ones should be counted (we can't do that so better to not use the stat at all). He completes lots of passes but his passing range is poor at this level i.e when he attempts more difficult or long range passes he gives it away too often. Also being better at it than Whitehead and Delap is of no value at all as that pair are arguably the 2 worst in the league. Stats or no stats - in my opinion his passing is well below average at this level but he has other assets to his game that have made him well worthy of his place all season. But he's not in the team for his 'range' beardy. He's not asked to ping it about. It's his job to keep it simple and he does - on the one hand you're saying they're passes we could all make but then you're saying being better than Rory and Deano means nothing - how does that work? So long as he's doing his job and regularly making those simple passes then it can't be argued that he's shit at passing. I can argue that and i just did. Whether you want to ignore that argument is completely up to you. In my opinion Carragher's passing is shit and yet once upon a time THE STATS said he was the best in the league. The reason being because he passed it sideways over and over again more than any player in the league. Whelan does this more than most so his 'stats' will be more complimentary than somebody who is trying to pass through or over defenders. Passing stats are bollocks and worth fuck all. That's my whole argument and where i sign off.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 13, 2013 13:09:23 GMT
But he's not in the team for his 'range' beardy. He's not asked to ping it about. It's his job to keep it simple and he does - on the one hand you're saying they're passes we could all make but then you're saying being better than Rory and Deano means nothing - how does that work? So long as he's doing his job and regularly making those simple passes then it can't be argued that he's shit at passing. I can argue that and i just did. Whether you want to ignore that argument is completely up to you. In my opinion Carragher's passing is shit and yet once upon a time THE STATS said he was the best in the league. The reason being because he passed it sideways over and over again more than any player in the league. Whelan does this more than most so his 'stats' will be more complimentary than somebody who is trying to pass through or over defenders. Passing stats are bollocks and worth fuck all. That's my whole argument and where i sign off. But I'm not arguing that he's a good passer! That's what you're ignoring! I'm disagreeing with the view that he's a shit one who constantly gives the ball away. And the stats there surely have some relevance because they show he doesn't constantly give it away and since it's not his job to ping balls everywhere but to tidy up and keep it simple I don't see where the 'he's shit at passing' things come from. There's a world of grey area between 'not amazing' and 'shit'.
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Whelan
Jan 13, 2013 13:48:21 GMT
Post by scfcbiancorossi on Jan 13, 2013 13:48:21 GMT
I can argue that and i just did. Whether you want to ignore that argument is completely up to you. In my opinion Carragher's passing is shit and yet once upon a time THE STATS said he was the best in the league. The reason being because he passed it sideways over and over again more than any player in the league. Whelan does this more than most so his 'stats' will be more complimentary than somebody who is trying to pass through or over defenders. Passing stats are bollocks and worth fuck all. That's my whole argument and where i sign off. But I'm not arguing that he's a good passer! That's what you're ignoring! I'm disagreeing with the view that he's a shit one who constantly gives the ball away. And the stats there surely have some relevance because they show he doesn't constantly give it away and since it's not his job to ping balls everywhere but to tidy up and keep it simple I don't see where the 'he's shit at passing' things come from. There's a world of grey area between 'not amazing' and 'shit'. With Whelan it's not how often he gives it away but where he gives it away. You can't give it away in dangerous areas at this level, simple as that. Whelan has never really been the answer to our midfield woes. I thought Cameron would be but TP won't play him there. We need to move on from Whelan now we really do. I'd argue that Whitehead is a far more effective player than Whelan. If Whitehead was better going forward he'd have been at a top club. Whelan is a top end championship/ low end premier league midfielder. Nothing more nothing less.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 13, 2013 13:53:34 GMT
But I'm not arguing that he's a good passer! That's what you're ignoring! I'm disagreeing with the view that he's a shit one who constantly gives the ball away. And the stats there surely have some relevance because they show he doesn't constantly give it away and since it's not his job to ping balls everywhere but to tidy up and keep it simple I don't see where the 'he's shit at passing' things come from. There's a world of grey area between 'not amazing' and 'shit'. With Whelan it's not how often he gives it away but where he gives it away. You can't give it away in dangerous areas at this level, simple as that. Whelan has never really been the answer to our midfield woes. I thought Cameron would be but TP won't play him there. We need to move on from Whelan now we really do. I'd argue that Whitehead is a far more effective player than Whelan. If Whitehead was better going forward he'd have been at a top club. Whelan is a top end championship/ low end premier league midfielder. Nothing more nothing less. Whitehead offers nothing on the ball and is half the footballer Whelan is.
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Whelan
Jan 13, 2013 13:57:04 GMT
Post by scfcbiancorossi on Jan 13, 2013 13:57:04 GMT
With Whelan it's not how often he gives it away but where he gives it away. You can't give it away in dangerous areas at this level, simple as that. Whelan has never really been the answer to our midfield woes. I thought Cameron would be but TP won't play him there. We need to move on from Whelan now we really do. I'd argue that Whitehead is a far more effective player than Whelan. If Whitehead was better going forward he'd have been at a top club. Whelan is a top end championship/ low end premier league midfielder. Nothing more nothing less. Whitehead offers nothing on the ball and is half the footballer Whelan is. Rob that's a bit of a wild statement. Defensively Whitehead is streets ahead of Whelan and offers twice as much mobility ( which we lack as you know). He's wank in front of goal granted but Whelan is atrocious going forward too.
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Whelan
Jan 13, 2013 13:57:25 GMT
Post by alexk on Jan 13, 2013 13:57:25 GMT
You really have to worry about the sanity of people who think Whitehead is better than Whelan on any level.
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Whelan
Jan 13, 2013 14:05:40 GMT
Post by fca47 on Jan 13, 2013 14:05:40 GMT
It wasn't til Nzonzi came into midfield, that you can really see how bad our midfield has been, and he's no world beater. Glen has been a good player for us and is a good steady player, but upgrading from him would vastly improve the side with someone who could run and pick a pass.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 13, 2013 14:07:38 GMT
Whitehead offers nothing on the ball and is half the footballer Whelan is. Rob that's a bit of a wild statement. Defensively Whitehead is streets ahead of Whelan and offers twice as much mobility ( which we lack as you know). He's wank in front of goal granted but Whelan is atrocious going forward too. We need midfielders who can do the defensive stuff and be decent on the ball. Only one of those applies to Whitehead. If you look back at our very best performances since promotion you'll struggle to find one that Deano started I reckon.
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Whelan
Jan 13, 2013 14:55:47 GMT
Post by scfcbiancorossi on Jan 13, 2013 14:55:47 GMT
Rob that's a bit of a wild statement. Defensively Whitehead is streets ahead of Whelan and offers twice as much mobility ( which we lack as you know). He's wank in front of goal granted but Whelan is atrocious going forward too. We need midfielders who can do the defensive stuff and be decent on the ball. Only one of those applies to Whitehead. If you look back at our very best performances since promotion you'll struggle to find one that Deano started I reckon. Compared to premier league standard midfielders...Glenn Whelan most certainly isnt "decent on the ball".
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Post by Deleted on Jan 13, 2013 15:00:56 GMT
We need midfielders who can do the defensive stuff and be decent on the ball. Only one of those applies to Whitehead. If you look back at our very best performances since promotion you'll struggle to find one that Deano started I reckon. Compared to premier league standard midfielders...Glenn Whelan most certainly isnt "decent on the ball". But compared to Dean Whitehead he is. Very much so.
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Whelan
Jan 13, 2013 15:29:54 GMT
Post by stokemanusa on Jan 13, 2013 15:29:54 GMT
He's been okay for me but his losing the ball from indecision this season has.annoyed me he like all our Midfielders is inconsistent and needs improving. When Wilson gets back is like to see Geoff get a spell in Midfield with nzonzi and Ethers and kites... We need counter attack pace if KJ or Jerome are on.
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Whelan
Jan 13, 2013 15:31:11 GMT
Post by scfcbiancorossi on Jan 13, 2013 15:31:11 GMT
Compared to premier league standard midfielders...Glenn Whelan most certainly isnt "decent on the ball". But compared to Dean Whitehead he is. Very much so. In fairness to Deano hes only really played for us alongside Rory or Whelan which isnt particularly inspirational stuff to play with ;D It would be interesting to see how he would get on alongside Nzonzi who is more comfortable than Whelan in possession.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 13, 2013 15:37:07 GMT
But compared to Dean Whitehead he is. Very much so. In fairness to Deano hes only really played for us alongside Rory or Whelan which isnt particularly inspirational stuff to play with ;D It would be interesting to see how he would get on alongside Nzonzi who is more comfortable than Whelan in possession. Didn't look anything special at Villa.
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Whelan
Jan 13, 2013 15:38:24 GMT
Post by stokemanusa on Jan 13, 2013 15:38:24 GMT
You really have to worry about the sanity of people who think Whitehead is better than Whelan on any level. He is on goal difference this season. Whelan has lost possession more times this season as well. And defensively Whitehead is miles better. Logically for our current state of affairs might be a better option.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 13, 2013 15:41:57 GMT
You really have to worry about the sanity of people who think Whitehead is better than Whelan on any level. He is on goal difference this season. Whelan has lost possession more times this season as well. And defensively Whitehead is miles better. Logically for our current state of affairs might be a better option. Whelan on average hasn't lost possession more times than Whitehead this season.
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Whelan
Jan 13, 2013 15:44:41 GMT
Post by stokemanusa on Jan 13, 2013 15:44:41 GMT
But I'm not arguing that he's a good passer! That's what you're ignoring! I'm disagreeing with the view that he's a shit one who constantly gives the ball away. And the stats there surely have some relevance because they show he doesn't constantly give it away and since it's not his job to ping balls everywhere but to tidy up and keep it simple I don't see where the 'he's shit at passing' things come from. There's a world of grey area between 'not amazing' and 'shit'. With Whelan it's not how often he gives it away but where he gives it away. You can't give it away in dangerous areas at this level, simple as that. Whelan has never really been the answer to our midfield woes. I thought Cameron would be but TP won't play him there. We need to move on from Whelan now we really do. I'd argue that Whitehead is a far more effective player than Whelan. If Whitehead was better going forward he'd have been at a top club. Whelan is a top end championship/ low end premier league midfielder. Nothing more nothing less. Well said, Whelan has been a liability on the ball notice nzonzi playing farther back when he or Adam is on the pitch if Whitehead is on nzonzi moves up and walters up the wing. I can't see any contribution from Adam or Whelan since the break and now walters in a spell... Ugh. Either nzonzi starts running at people (which is why tone wanted him and for his passing /ball skills) or Whitehead on nzonzi infront of him and cameron kites in midfield...
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Whelan
Jan 13, 2013 15:52:06 GMT
Post by stokemanusa on Jan 13, 2013 15:52:06 GMT
He is on goal difference this season. Whelan has lost possession more times this season as well. And defensively Whitehead is miles better. Logically for our current state of affairs might be a better option. Whelan on average hasn't lost possession more times than Whitehead this season. He has, you watch the wigan game? lol mcarthy took it off his feet 3 times.. Whelan has had more passes, but has lost the ball at his feet more than any stoke player... Look at the tape. Wigan, Tottenham, lots of examples...
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