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Post by mcf on Nov 18, 2011 10:53:05 GMT
That somebody would be overlooked for a job because of his or her colour is truly outrageous and unacceptable in a civilised society.
That is a completely different issue to the John Terry saga - he verbally abused somebody in the heat of the moment while he was playing football.
I think the issue is that if you are going to ban people from playing or even watching for racial abuse, then why not for general abuse?
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Post by smokey on Nov 18, 2011 11:00:20 GMT
How does that differ from a red head or blonde being overlooked for a job because of the colour of their hair or a short guy being overlooked? Oooops
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Post by Lakeland Potter on Nov 18, 2011 11:05:05 GMT
Surely mcf, if a fan can be banned for three years for racial abuse in the stands "in the heat of the moment" a footballer can hardly complain if he gets banned for a few games? Indeed, compared to the ban the fan gets, the footballer is getting off lightly.
One difference between racial abuse and other forms of abuse is that whilst other forms of abuse abuse "may" be a crime racial abuse IS a crime under British Law and the punishment tends to reflect this in the case of the fan but, strangely, not always in the case of the player.
As to why racial abuse is a crime - as said above it is because it is the thin end of a very long wedge. Maybe if fat people or ginger people had been enslaved (under the law) and lynched in the past, then insulting ginger or fat people would attract harsher punishments than it does?
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Post by Stafford-Stokie on Nov 18, 2011 11:11:11 GMT
I am with mcf and smokey on this. I think society is over the top on what is racist and what isn't. Sorry but changing things like company logo's (robinsons jam) and descriptions such as black board because some nutter see's them as being racist was the thin end of the wedge.
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Post by greyman on Nov 18, 2011 11:40:38 GMT
Those things never happened though. The blackboard story is a load of shite bandied around by racist idiots.
If I found an employee of mine calling somebody else a 'nigger' even if it was 'in the heat of the moment', they'd be out on their arse before they'd had chance to draw breath. It's no good trying to combat racism in the sport if players are allowed to racially abuse each other. It's staggering anybody could be arguing different.
And if you don't agree, I'm happy to follow you around with a camera while you call black people nigger in the street, then offer to shake their hand and forget all about it.
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Post by Stafford-Stokie on Nov 18, 2011 11:48:58 GMT
And where did anyone say it was ok to call black people nigger? The black board story is quite true because we were told by a teacher that they were now called chalk boards in case it caused offence. It has now done full circle and they are now interactive white boards. No complaints about that.
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Post by andychk on Nov 18, 2011 11:56:42 GMT
Lakeland about the Stephen Lawrence murder, what pisses me off is its happened in the past and will in the future where a white person gets attacked or murdered by people of different race and there is only ever a small article in the press then forgotten about.Good post Maniche
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Post by PotterLog on Nov 18, 2011 11:58:39 GMT
And where did anyone say it was ok to call black people nigger? The black board story is quite true because we were told by a teacher that they were now called chalk boards in case it caused offence. It has now done full circle and they are now interactive white boards. No complaints about that. Glad you've done some thorough research and are quoting truly reliable sources to back up your stories SS. ;D Such gullibility would be funny if it wasn't so dangerous.
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Post by greyman on Nov 18, 2011 12:02:51 GMT
And where did anyone say it was ok to call black people nigger? The black board story is quite true because we were told by a teacher that they were now called chalk boards in case it caused offence. It has now done full circle and they are now interactive white boards. No complaints about that. Well if it's not OK, what are you arguing about? Ban them, Fuck them. They've said it and they should deal with the consequences. I'll be out in Manchester tomorrow, if you want to prove to me that a handshake is all that is needed to get somebody to forget you've just racially abused them.
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Post by drwhom on Nov 18, 2011 12:08:03 GMT
How on earth is this thread still open after Potter Log posted the Stewart Lee clip? I can only imagine that some people *cough* Stafford-Stokie *cough* didn't watch it.
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Post by mcf on Nov 18, 2011 12:17:33 GMT
And if you don't agree, I'm happy to follow you around with a camera while you call black people nigger in the street, then offer to shake their hand and forget all about it.
To be fair though, you could replace the n word with cunt and you would still get the same response.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Nov 18, 2011 12:21:11 GMT
That somebody would be overlooked for a job because of his or her colour is truly outrageous and unacceptable in a civilised society. That is a completely different issue to the John Terry saga - he verbally abused somebody in the heat of the moment while he was playing football. I think the issue is that if you are going to ban people from playing or even watching for racial abuse, then why not for general abuse? Merk do you agree that you and I are due just as much rights as a footballer and that we should be treated equally in terms of punishment for being racist in a football ground?
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Post by Lakeland Potter on Nov 18, 2011 12:28:50 GMT
Lakeland about the Stephen Lawrence murder, what pisses me off is its happened in the past and will in the future where a white person gets attacked or murdered by people of different race and there is only ever a small article in the press then forgotten about.Good post Maniche The reason the Stephen Lawrence murder is still "news" after nearly 20 years is that inept, racist, police cocked up the investigation. If they had done their job the murderers would probably have been convicted at the time and the case would be history. You must be unlucky living where you do. Most murders in towns and cities where I have lived have attacted press coverage based on the interesting/shocking/unusual aspects of the case not on the relative colours of the people involved.
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Post by vahl on Nov 18, 2011 12:29:15 GMT
Is calling a black person a 'black bastard' worse than calling a fat person a 'fat bastard' ?
Is calling a pakistani native a 'paki bastard' worse than calling a disabled person a '****' or a 'spaz' ?
We could sit here all day and rip into each other for how different we all look, odd shaped bodies, weird birth marks, even having something like one fucking bollock.
Point is, I don't think it matters what is said, people will be people and react to what they find offensive. It's what is taught to us to be offensive that is the problem imo.
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Post by foxysgloves on Nov 18, 2011 12:36:07 GMT
It's actually pretty scary how many people seem to see racism as akin to calling someone "ginger", "fat", etc. Despite all the efforts to get rid of racism both in football and the wider world it doesn't seem to have had a major effect.
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Post by vahl on Nov 18, 2011 12:37:34 GMT
It's actually pretty scary how many people seem to see racism as akin to calling someone "ginger", "fat", etc. Despite all the efforts to get rid of racism both in football and the wider world it doesn't seem to have had a major effect. Go and ask a ginger, fat, skinny, disabled person what they feel inside when being discriminated against. Then go and ask a black person what they feel inside when they've been racially abused. I bet they both give you the same answer.
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Post by foxysgloves on Nov 18, 2011 12:41:49 GMT
So lets get this 100% clear you think those who slated Dave Kitson as a ginger tosser are deserving of the same treatment as those who offer monkey chants to opposing black players?
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Post by vahl on Nov 18, 2011 12:46:22 GMT
So lets get this 100% clear you think those who slated Dave Kitson as a ginger tosser are deserving of the same treatment as those who offer monkey chants to opposing black players? So they're not both forms of hate towards another persons appearance? Of course there's a link. Don't get me wrong, there's various degrees of racism and discrimination but for me personally they all fall under the same umbrella.
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Post by mcf on Nov 18, 2011 12:52:19 GMT
Spence
Not really.
To be honest, I'm really not sure what the answers are.
Logic tells me that abuse is abuse.
Experience tells me that things said on a football field go way beyond what you would normally experience and consider acceptable on a street or in an office.
For example, if I just happened to get kicked badly by an opposition player and then told him that he was a thick, docile cunt and I'd happily shit down his neck then I'd expect him to brick it a bit or get abuse back where he may tell me I was gay, fat puff and that I shagged dogs. I would then expect to shake hands at the end of the game.
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Post by foxysgloves on Nov 18, 2011 12:54:03 GMT
So lets get this 100% clear you think those who slated Dave Kitson as a ginger tosser are deserving of the same treatment as those who offer monkey chants to opposing black players? So they're not both forms of hate towards another persons appearance? Of course there's a link. Don't get me wrong, there's various degrees of racism and discrimination but for me personally they all fall under the same umbrella. Fair enough but you're wrong.....they don't fall under the same umbrella. If you don't get it then I suggest you do a bit of googling and research the history of some ethnic minorities.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 18, 2011 13:31:36 GMT
nice debate lads and lasses but...... should we be talking about Disproportionate punishments at the moment or rather Disporoportionate lengthy threads around two individuals that haven't actually been found guilty as of yet?
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Post by Paul Spencer on Nov 18, 2011 13:32:37 GMT
Spence Not really. To be honest, I'm really not sure what the answers are. Logic tells me that abuse is abuse. Experience tells me that things said on a football field go way beyond what you would normally experience and consider acceptable on a street or in an office. For example, if I just happened to get kicked badly by an opposition player and then told him that he was a thick, docile cunt and I'd happily shit down his neck then I'd expect him to brick it a bit or get abuse back where he may tell me I was gay, fat puff and that I shagged dogs. I would then expect to shake hands at the end of the game. Ah I see - you're in the victims of racist abuse on a football field should just 'take it like a man' camp and if they simply manned up a bit, then it wouldn't even be an issue.
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Post by amancalledhorse on Nov 18, 2011 13:36:01 GMT
Spence Not really. To be honest, I'm really not sure what the answers are. Logic tells me that abuse is abuse. Experience tells me that things said on a football field go way beyond what you would normally experience and consider acceptable on a street or in an office. For example, if I just happened to get kicked badly by an opposition player and then told him that he was a thick, docile cunt and I'd happily shit down his neck then I'd expect him to brick it a bit or get abuse back where he may tell me I was gay, fat puff and that I shagged dogs. I would then expect to shake hands at the end of the game. Ah I see - you're in the victims of racist abuse on a football field should just 'take it like a man' camp and if they simply manned up a bit, then it wouldn't even be an issue. The typical honky response.
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Post by greyman on Nov 18, 2011 13:43:33 GMT
So they're not both forms of hate towards another persons appearance? Of course there's a link. Don't get me wrong, there's various degrees of racism and discrimination but for me personally they all fall under the same umbrella. Fair enough but you're wrong.....they don't fall under the same umbrella. If you don't get it then I suggest you do a bit of googling and research the history of some ethnic minorities. Thats not true because the FA have charged Suarez and John Terry is on video using racist language and is now trying to explain it. Not only that we have the President of FIFA trying to tell us that players should be allowed to call each other whatever they like but it's different for fans.
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timmis
Youth Player
HUGHES OUT!
Posts: 459
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Post by timmis on Nov 18, 2011 13:55:07 GMT
I think in todays society we disproportionately punish people for racism - and before anyone accuses me of being a racist stop right there because I am not at all. I have many friends from many different backgrounds quote] = some of my best friends are black
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Post by Countydog on Nov 18, 2011 16:12:42 GMT
Good grief you make a comment on a topical subject that is currenly in the news and you get hammered with all sorts - Kylelightbourne says im an idiot, ive been branded sad and stupid - the oatcake message board is an unforgiving place.
Anyway ill stick to my original comments thank you very much - it seems some people cannot exchange views without being insulting. Im not ignorant, I am not racist, im not stupid or an idiot - i have a view and if you don't agree fine. No need to resort to childish insults.
The point I wanted to make is the punishment should fit the crime - life bans etc is a disproportionate punishment in my opinion. Things need to be put into a little bit of perspective - noone has been killed, raped etc.................
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Post by mcf on Nov 18, 2011 16:15:04 GMT
Possibly Spence
TBH, I don't have an absolute opinion on this as I'm pretty much undecided/uneasy about it all.
Yep, you probably having me right in thinking that players perhaps should man up a bit and I kind of see where Blatter is coming from.
That said, the stuff that Terry comes out with is pretty grim....and one thing is for certain - I don't think it has a place on the terraces.
The one thing I do have issue though is where abuse is given out but then the minute 'fire' is returned then people go hopping about playing the race card (maybe they are right to do so, I'm not sure). People often say things in the heat of the moment that they don't mean just to wind someone up, or when they lose their temper.
I just think it is a tricky subject and society at large has bigger issues to worry about than some millionaire footballer being abused.
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Post by AlbertTatlock on Nov 18, 2011 16:32:47 GMT
What’s all the fuss about? All John Terry said was “fucking black cunt” (allegedly) which part of it isn’t true? I wouldn’t go blarting if someone called me a fit handsome twat. Gouranga.
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Post by AlbertTatlock on Nov 18, 2011 16:40:04 GMT
As for Saurez does anyone care what the stumpy little cheating dego buck toothed wanker said to mardy arsed Evra? Gouranga.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 18, 2011 16:43:35 GMT
I agree, but in the same way as someone thumping you is assault and then the same person kills you, clearly there are different levels. You may thump someone in the heat of the moment , but only a nutter would kill someone.
Seems to me we pride our country because ANYONE can live here FREE from persecution from colour, religion or sexuality. Isn't that what we fought 2 world wars for?
I'm Nordic decent so if anyone wants to call me a fucking viking be my guest. I'm sure most of you will be Saxon, Celtic, Norman, Angles or like me Nordic so the problem here is not race it's colour or religion, something that marks a man/woman as being different, something Visual.
Seems small minded to me I thought we were all flesh and blood.
We've had a thousand years to integrate into what is now called Britain, that's the key to it for me integration, becoming the accepted norm.
Then perhaps we can get back to discussing our pastimes, like football. A love we all share irrespective of colour.
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