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Post by Lakeland Potter on Jun 3, 2011 15:40:47 GMT
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Post by MarkWolstanton on Jun 3, 2011 15:54:08 GMT
As one of the least likely to use or benefit from a standing area at the Brit, John your interest and support is either commendable or baffling!  ;D |
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Post by TheBra1n on Jun 3, 2011 16:21:47 GMT
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Post by Lakeland Potter on Jun 3, 2011 16:29:07 GMT
As one of the least likely to use or benefit from a standing area at the Brit, John your interest and support is either commendable or baffling! ;D I'd happily stand if we had a standing area, Mark. Just as I do at most of the away games I go to. Perhaps you are confusing me with my paraplaegic twin? |
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jackr40
Academy Starlet
Gooeendine th' pub fer a parnt
Posts: 167
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Post by jackr40 on Jun 3, 2011 16:43:24 GMT
Surely having a safe standing area is better than having people stand up in areas where they could get hurt?
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Post by Lakeland Potter on Jun 3, 2011 16:48:04 GMT
Surely having a safe standing area is better than having people stand up in areas where they could get hurt? I agree - I think a safe standing option at all grounds is a no brainer. Sadly, a lot of people including some who govern the country and some who run football (including our own Tony Scholes) don't agree. |
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jackr40
Academy Starlet
Gooeendine th' pub fer a parnt
Posts: 167
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Post by jackr40 on Jun 3, 2011 16:50:05 GMT
Apparently it improves the atmosphere as well...
This is largest standing area in European football!
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Post by MarkWolstanton on Jun 3, 2011 17:57:09 GMT
As one of the least likely to use or benefit from a standing area at the Brit, John your interest and support is either commendable or baffling! ;D I'd happily stand if we had a standing area, Mark. Just as I do at most of the away games I go to. Perhaps you are confusing me with my paraplaegic twin? No I was linking you with the bloke Gunnar Gislason asked to stand up at a fans meeting when he already was!  You wouldn't see a bloody thing! Can't even begin to understand why so much hot air is being expelled on this subject to be honest. Lots of people might say they want the return of standing areas but do they really give a toss? I'm not hearing QPR fans stating they wouldn't mind paying 40% more if only they could have terraces! |
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Post by Lakeland Potter on Jun 3, 2011 18:24:25 GMT
I'd happily stand if we had a standing area, Mark. Just as I do at most of the away games I go to. Perhaps you are confusing me with my paraplaegic twin? No I was linking you with the bloke Gunnar Gislason asked to stand up at a fans meeting when he already was! You wouldn't see a bloody thing! Can't even begin to understand why so much hot air is being expelled on this subject to be honest. Lots of people might say they want the return of standing areas but do they really give a toss? I'm not hearing QPR fans stating they wouldn't mind paying 40% more if only they could have terraces! Gosh - I might have known it was one of your Gunnar stories! ;D I think the enthusiasm for standing amongst many supporters is shown at away games. I'll accept that fans who regularly attend away games may not be typical of a home crowd - but the fact is that, at Stoke's away games since promotion, significant numbers of Stokies have stood at the majority of grounds. Indeed, I think the only time I have ever sat in my seat at some grounds was at half time. That proves that there is an enthusiasm amongst a significant percentage of fans for standing. And safe standing areas would certainly be preferable to the standing in the current seated areas which always seems to me to be a bit unsafe - even although I am do it. At existing grounds, I accept that it is difficult to go for wholsesale standing of a stand because it might mean having to ask significant numbers of season ticket holders to move to another stand. But, at grounds like the Brit, which are as yet unfinished, it would be easy to install safe standing areas in the new corners as they were built. You can stand in a corner without affecting the view of the pitch of seated fans in the stands at either side of the corner. To me that would be a great start if only the government would give the go ahead and the club agreed. Peter Coates could offer the Brit as a testbed and put safe standing in a new corner. That would please a lot of people and would not upset any Stokies, I would have thought. |
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Post by MarkWolstanton on Jun 3, 2011 18:39:26 GMT
How many people in this country have been crushed to death in seating stadiums, John?
By safe standing you merely mean safer. They would in no way replicate the old terracing in terms of feel and atmosphere and remain safe.
There is a raft of things that pisses supporters off more than this issue as we both know.
Is this just trying to take the focus off things that fan groups are complete impotent on when it comes to results?
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Post by Lakeland Potter on Jun 3, 2011 19:21:48 GMT
How many people in this country have been crushed to death in seating stadiums, John? By safe standing you merely mean safer. They would in no way replicate the old terracing in terms of feel and atmosphere and remain safe. There is a raft of things that pisses supporters off more than this issue as we both know. Is this just trying to take the focus off things that fan groups are complete impotent on when it comes to results? I accept that standing in seated stadia is unlikely to crush anyone to death. But there has to be more chance of broken limbs from falls in a seated stand - not a huge problem but the risk is there if people stand. But my main concern about standing in all seated stadia is the antisocial aspect of blocking the view of people behind who wish (or need) to remain seated. Behind me at the Brit is an old guy (even older then me) who simply can't stand for long periods. So as far as possible I try not to stand for long periods in front of him. This causes problems if people stand in front of me - or in the aisle towards the end of the game. In a sensible design of stadium those who wished to be seated with unobstructed views could do so and others could stand in safe standing areas. I'll turn the question back on you. What possible objection can there be to the next corner to be completed at the Brit being made safe standing for league and (English) cup games? Who loses out if that happens? No one as far as I can see. And the new corner (if it was, say, the scoreboard corner) would hold maybe 2,500 or 3,000 people standing instead of the 1,800 it would hold if it were all seater. Everyone is a winner! EDIT - and as for atmosphere - the atmosphere at the Dortmund - Shalke game on U-Tube above is pretty good - better than you'd get at an English all seater ground. |
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Post by MarkWolstanton on Jun 3, 2011 20:52:09 GMT
Can't say I see too large a collection of broken bones in a season due to people standing up and jumping about in seating areas, John. Did you make that up? I do know about people loosing their lives on terraces. As far as anti-social element of views being blocked how on earth do you reckon the introduction of areas of terraces in place of seats sorts that out? How would you have gone on at Wembley if you had only been able to get a standing ticket? Even I struggled to see some action on packed terraces and I'm four foot taller than you! It wouldn't always be a matter of choice would it? Was the German game generating a better atmosphere than we regularly get at the Brit then? |
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Post by Lakeland Potter on Jun 3, 2011 21:28:30 GMT
Avoiding answering my question at the end of my last post was the best option for you, Mark - well done!
Is Status Quo still your favourite group? ;D
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Post by Malcolm Clarke on Jun 3, 2011 22:41:32 GMT
A few quick points. We would be delighted to bring the roadshow to Stoke if the Club invited us. The meeting I attended at Wolves was excellent, with an intelligent mature debate involving fans, and the Club's CEO, Safety Officer and PR guy. Great credit to Jez Moxey for setting it up. John has posted the link to the roadshow website. You may also be interested in the account of the meeting from the Wolves Club website tinyurl.com/3k6hpqd At the end of the discussion, Jez asked the fans representatives to vote on whether they would support giving fans the choice to sit or stand. 23 voted in favour, with 1 against and 1 abstention. He then asked them to indicate whether they themselves would stand if they had the choice and 6 said they would. Thus the majority of fans would still sit, but support choice. This is very much in line with our own conclusions that we are probably talking about 15-20% who would actually choose to stand in the top 2 divisions, but about 90% who support choice. This is all about choice for both clubs and fans - we are not advocating that any club or any fan should be forced to do anything by either the Government or the Leagues. The evidence does not support the conclusion that standing in seated areas is a significant safety risk, but it is clearly a significant customer care issue which causes problems for those who cannot or do not wish to stand but have they view blocked by those who are standing in seated areas. This is particularly so in away sections. It is also sometimes a source of disorder problems when stewards try to force people to sit and eject some if they don't. That is why at many grounds there is no longer any real attempt to force people to sit and the amount of standing in seated areas is undoubtedly increasing. The customer care problems are therefore also increasing. For example, at most away games now almost the whole of Stoke support stands, when this never used to be the case. Similarly with the away support at the Brit. for many clubs. The common sense solution is to try to create choice so that those who want to stand can do so in safety and those who want to sit can do so without having their view blocked by people standing in front of them. The suggestion that this campaign is designed to take attention away from other unsuccessful campaigns is as curious as it is cynical. We are a democratic organisation which responds to the wishes of its members, and this remains a significant and important issue for many fans. It is a curious proposition because, arguably, this campaign will be hard to win, so if we were ( which we are not) trying to draw attention from unsuccessful campaigns, we wouldn't choose this one. We are not proposing to go back to anything. The Green Guide defines what is an acceptable safety standard for both standing and seated areas and we are not proposing any deviation from that. The rail seats in this roadshow are fully compliant with the Green Guide whether used in seated or standing mode. Finally, all the disasters involving loss of life in a football ground which have occurred in recent years, such as Ellis Park in South Africa and others, have been in all-seated stadia. Throughout the world there are many examples of safe standing areas with excellent safety records. I believe that eventually reality and common sense must intrude, and choice will return, hand in hand with appropriate safety levels. |
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Post by JoeinOz on Jun 4, 2011 11:31:00 GMT
I have mixed opinions on this. Both sides are right.
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Post by McLovin on Jun 4, 2011 12:07:33 GMT
I'd love to stand. I do at most away games if the people behind me are standing. I was only a nipper when I stood on the boothen, so i'd love to be able to do it now and actually see the pitch ;D
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Post by beanthedogscfc on Jun 4, 2011 12:27:55 GMT
JoeinOz that fence is far wedged up your arse I can smell the shit here in Stoke from Down Under.
Its all about choice if its safe then you have the choice to stand in the area or stay seated. I for one am for it, but have a strange feeling we only remember the good times of standing and forgot the bad.
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Post by MarkWolstanton on Jun 4, 2011 12:30:21 GMT
Can someone give me an accurate idea of how many millions of pounds it would cost to convert an area of the Brit to a so called safe standing area?
Who would that cost be passed on to?
Would those who are championing this like to consider having a poll to discover if fans would prefer to have clubs invest that money in holding or reducing prices?
Why aren't the clubs being pushed to enforce ground regulations regarding standing up all game?
What are the figures for crowd congestion related injury etc in all seat stadiums that even begin to justify this idea
Given that many Prem stadiums are sold out every week how do we ensure there is any choice rather than get what's available? Shirked like John could end up not seeing any more than he does now apparently and get trampled as an added extra.
Standing areas are a nice to have. There are so many stadiums now where it is impractical and there are so many other problems out there ahead of this I just don't get why it is on any agendas!
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Post by MarkWolstanton on Jun 4, 2011 12:40:32 GMT
Avoiding answering my question at the end of my last post was the best option for you, Mark - well done! Is Status Quo still your favourite group? ;D You mean the point about sticking a standing area in the corner of the stadium? So you want to stick the worst option for people to view in the worst possible vantage point? Sounds a winner!!! Another example of half arsed thinking from the people who won't ever inflict these things on themselves but like to think they are popular for the masses! |
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Post by Lakeland Potter on Jun 4, 2011 12:44:08 GMT
"Can someone give me an accurate idea of how many millions of pounds it would cost to convert an area of the Brit to a so called safe standing area?"
Is anyone calling for clubs to convert existing stands to safe standing areas - I am certainly not asking for that and I don't think the FSF is.
If safe standing were allowed it would be up to the clubs whether they wished to go to the expense of conversion. However, clubs like Stoke, with unfinished grounds, and Wolves, who are starting to redevelop their grounds, could incorporate safe standing.
For example at the Brit, I assume at some point the club will bite the bullet and develop one of the corners - probably the big screen corner as that has the footings. To redevelop it with seats like those in the ground already would cost £3.8 million (according to St Peter) and would provide 1,800 seats. To redevelop it as safe standing (with seats for Euro games only) would cost a bit more (say £4 million in total) and the corner would then hold 1,800 seated or, say, 2,700 - 3000 standing for domestic matches.
I don't see who could object to that.
EDIT - this post crossed in the post with your last one!
I'm not so sure that the corners would be so unpopular for standing. When a ground is full it is full. Sensible pricing of the seated corner would tempt plenty of takers. When we were in the Championship it wasn't the Boothen/Seddon corner which had the lowest occupancy of a half full stadium.
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Post by MarkWolstanton on Jun 4, 2011 13:01:26 GMT
John you know full well that ours is one of the few stadiums in the Prem that is not fully developed. Any move to convert parts of stadia to standing would far out striping cost of same capacity seating.
My source for this is the bloke mainly responsible for costing and build of many stadiums including the Reebok.
If you think people want to stand in a corner by choice, good luck.
I really haven't any objection to the principle of choice. I don't understand why it is on the agenda at this point.
People like Moxey have more questions to answer about accessibility to games for people before we get onto the matter of how they watch them!
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Post by Lakeland Potter on Jun 4, 2011 13:11:27 GMT
John you know full well that ours is one of the few stadiums in the Prem that is not fully developed. Any move to convert parts of stadia to standing would far out striping cost of same capacity seating. My source for this is the bloke mainly responsible for costing and build of many stadiums including the Reebok. If you think people want to stand in a corner by choice, good luck. I really haven't any objection to the principle of choice. I don't understand why it is on the agenda at this point. People like Moxey have more questions to answer about accessibility to games for people before we get onto the matter of how they watch them! As I said - it would be entirely up to those clubs with "finished" stadia whether they wished to convert part of their stadia to safe standing. But developments happen all the time. For example: Spurs will redevelop or more likely relocate at some point soon. Wolves have just started to redevelop. Newcastle have plans to redevelop one side of their stadium. We have an unfinsihed stadium. QPR need a new stadium or a complete rebuild - and they have the money to do it IF they stay in the Prem. And there are no doubt many others I have not yet mentioned - plus, of course, clubs in the Championship who are also affected by the same legislation. All I am saying is that it requires simply a change of heart by the governement (and/or the passing of a Private members' bill) to allow any such developments or redevelopments to allow safe standing to be incorporated SHOULD CLUBS WISH TO DO IT. |
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Post by johnnysoul60 on Jun 4, 2011 16:52:30 GMT
Both ends standing would be great , especially away where most people stand anyway , as with most fans issues the germans lead the way , ohh and with their national team too
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Post by MarkWolstanton on Jun 4, 2011 18:50:19 GMT
Both ends standing would be great , especially away where most people stand anyway , as with most fans issues the germans lead the way , ohh and with their national team too The problem is that both John and Malcolm are studiously avoiding giving you the cost of such an exercise. Simply it would require the demolition of the two existing stands behind the goals at the Brit. This is because the existing terracing is insufficient for conversion as is all the access and exit set ups. Figure out the cost of that in terms of cash and how it would impact on all other areas if the clubs development and improvement. It's all well and good 99 cats out of a hundred voting for Kittie-Kat. They may not be so keen if you explain they have to also agree to having their balls chopped off to enable it. No doubt the same applied to the delegates at the Wolves conference. Seating areas may not be everyone's cup of tea but it cannot be doubted that the benefit they have brought in terms of crowd control and safety is absolutely enormous. The compromising of this benefit is what supporters representatives should be attacking rather than supporting pie in the sky alternatives that require fundamental reconstruction of the majority of the nations major stadia. In my view of course. We shouldn't get suckered in by the scary stories about Ellis Park of course. I imagine most know the root cause of that ( tens of thousands too many people let in by corrupt security) and understand that would have occurred in any set up. I believe that this is just a beauty parade and their will be no return to sanctioned standing areas for decades. Too much has been invested in and gained by our seated stadium. Too much lost by standing areas and what they encourage. The real issues affecting football support surely remain unsolved and apparently put behind travelling circus dreams. |
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Post by Lakeland Potter on Jun 4, 2011 18:58:59 GMT
Both ends standing would be great , especially away where most people stand anyway , as with most fans issues the germans lead the way , ohh and with their national team too . Of course I am not giving the cost of converting either end of the Brit to safe standing. For the simple reason that I haven't proposed that either end of the Brit is converted to safe standing! I've suggested that, if the law allowed it, the next corner to be completed at the Brit should be designed for safe standing from the outset. What other clubs do in the event of a change in the law is up to them. I would expect that safe standing would be more realistic in those clubs developing or redeveloping their grounds - as per my list in my post above. |
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Post by MarkWolstanton on Jun 4, 2011 19:11:59 GMT
Which are a drop in the ocean of course and many are so far down the route of planning it isn't going to be reversed.
How do you have a standing wedge between the South stand and family stand without major problems.
I thought it was an away fan issue? Is that where you are going to put them?
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Post by mermaidsal on Jun 4, 2011 19:13:21 GMT
As one of the least likely to use or benefit from a standing area at the Brit, John your interest and support is either commendable or baffling! ;D Hey I think it's a great idea too ;D |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 4, 2011 19:43:31 GMT
Malcolm appears to be enjoying the standing experience in the link..
But then he is taking up two places and his arm is actually over were the 3rd person in the row would sit /stand.. I presume as happens now the skinny meek and mild bloke or girl sitting /standing next to him would still be the ones to lose out on space?
True only a mock up..but a serious point actually ..personally I wouldn't use several of those pictures to promote that set up as the proposal for safe standing ..as presumably those directly oppossed to the idea would also pick up the same point and similar own goals included in the pictures.
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Post by Lakeland Potter on Jun 4, 2011 19:59:28 GMT
Malcolm appears to be enjoying the standing experience in the link.. But then he is taking up two places and his arm is actually over were the 3rd person in the row would sit /stand.. I presume as happens now the skinny meek and mild bloke or girl sitting /standing next to him would still be the ones to lose out on space? True only a mock up..but a serious point actually ..personally I wouldn't use several of those pictures to promote that set up as the proposal for safe standing ..as presumably those directly oppossed to the idea would also pick up the same point and similar own goals included in the pictures. The Picasa album on this link shows a group of 8 standing fans. picasaweb.google.com/SafeStanding/RoadshowAtWolvesMay19202011No2?authkey=Gv1sRgCNDd04mxzaWhnAE&feat=directlink# |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 4, 2011 20:05:00 GMT
They're the very ones I refer to when talking about own goals..on at least one , a smaller bloke behind a much larger one can't see , nor can the lady as is illustrated in her standing in the aisle on another to make 'eye contact' with Malcolm and the speakers...
True mock ups this size don't do the scheme justice or provide true scale..which is why I personally wouldn't use them to demonstrate and promote the idea to decission makers.
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;D
