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Post by BoxxyTheLost on Jun 5, 2011 23:58:51 GMT
Gotta say I agree with quite a few on here. And thanks to Lakeland for keeping everyone up to date with all the FSF stuff. I get the newsletters but don't always get time to read through them.
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Post by SuperRickyFuller on Jun 6, 2011 0:06:15 GMT
Gotta say I agree with quite a few on here. And thanks to Lakeland for keeping everyone up to date with all the FSF stuff. I get the newsletters but don't always get time to read through them. Agree with that too Haven't had chance to read the stuff that's come through my door either but it's great when Lakeland and Malcolm come on to tell us what the FSF have been doing on our, the average football fans', behalf. Shame we have certain people who don't appreciate that and are too busy shouting down anything good, even if it's in the majorities best interests I'm sure that the vast majority of likeminded and decent fans will join me in saying "thank you and keep up the good work" to Malcolm and the FSF team. It's obvious just how hard they work to give people a simple choice
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Post by One-Two on Jun 6, 2011 0:13:04 GMT
Just to echo what a couple of others have said, there aren't lots of people posting on this thread, but I think that's mainly because 95% of people have the same opinion, get it done! and therefore don't really have anything different to add.
Keep up the good work MC and the rest of the FSF.
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Post by Lakeland Potter on Jun 6, 2011 6:13:44 GMT
Could the Stoke part of the South Stand become our standing area? We'd all like the boothen (well not all) but surely this is most feasible Evan1863 - this might be a good opportunity to explain some of the problems in converting EXISTING stands to safe standing. 1. It is difficult if not impossible to convert one SIDE of a stand to safe standing whilst the other SIDE remains seated - or officialy seated in the case of the away area of the South Stand! If you allow standing at one side and seating at the other, the seated area will have an obscured view of the pitch. You MAY be able to get round this by having either the WHOLE of the stand as safe standing OR the back rows as safe standing along the whole length of the stand - ie both the home and away sides. But see point 2. in this post for other problems. 2. At the Brit, the concourses under the South Stand, The Boothen and the Seddon are only just about big enough for the number of people in the stand - the Q Railing stand has a much more spacious concourse for the lower tier. To convert those three stands to safe standing (and put more people in) would entail enlarging the concourses and add extra toilet and catering facilities on those three sides to accomodate the extra fans - These problems can be overcome but at a sizeable cost to the club. For the above reasons the corners at the Brit remain the most viable option for building as safe standing areas. First, you can stand in a corner "segment" without blocking the view of the pitch of anyone seated in the stands at the sides and ends of the pitch - simple geometry! Second - it is easy to provide enlarged concourses in the corners by simply "squaring off" the concourses (in the same way that the current shop provides a squared off area in that corner of the stadium). The potentially much larger concourse space per person in the corners would allow them to be developed with larger catering and toilet facilities to accomodate the extra number of spectators. It is no coincidence that Delilah's is situated at a corner of the ground - that is where it could be accommodated whilst leaving enough room in the concourse. Hope this helps.
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Post by Malcolm Clarke on Jun 6, 2011 8:40:30 GMT
You may be interested to Cardiff's approach to a practical solution to the problem tinyurl.com/6j68aajThe singing section will of course stand throughout but the Club can't say that. A number of Club safety officers are adopting a similar approach e.g Man City, Bolton That's a solution for home areas but not away areas of course. Standing in home seated areas appears to be far less prevalent at the Brit. than some other grounds at present, although that might change if current trends continue. The common sense short/medium-term approach to away areas is to advertise the back part for those who wish to stand and the front part for those who don't, but no club dare do this because it is seen as condoning standing in seated areas.
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Post by sirpineapple89 on Jun 6, 2011 8:45:31 GMT
Malcolm and Fornside - Thanks to you both. It may not happen at Stoke but to give other fans a chance to vote for what they want is, at least, a step in the right direction.
Keep up the good work.
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Post by swampmongrel on Jun 6, 2011 9:42:13 GMT
I notice that the Green Guide specifies a maximum gradient for safe standing - anyone know what the gradients in the Boothen/Seddon stands are? There are actually two gradients, with the first 12 (ish) rows being at a slightly shallower angle to the rows above. Interesting question. Safe standing at Hoffenheim The Boothen Seem pretty much the same to me.
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Post by Lakeland Potter on Jun 6, 2011 10:50:39 GMT
I notice that the Green Guide specifies a maximum gradient for safe standing - anyone know what the gradients in the Boothen/Seddon stands are? There are actually two gradients, with the first 12 (ish) rows being at a slightly shallower angle to the rows above. Interesting question. Safe standing at Hoffenheim The Boothen Seem pretty much the same to me. Cheers for that. Yes, they do look similar. Of course that doesn't tell us whether the Boothen is more or less than the 25% maximum angle allowed in the "Green Guide" which I think is a UK regulation.
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Post by MarkWolstanton on Jun 6, 2011 11:05:11 GMT
You may be interested to Cardiff's approach to a practical solution to the problem tinyurl.com/6j68aajThe singing section will of course stand throughout but the Club can't say that. A number of Club safety officers are adopting a similar approach e.g Man City, Bolton That's a solution for home areas but not away areas of course. Standing in home seated areas appears to be far less prevalent at the Brit. than some other grounds at present, although that might change if current trends continue. The common sense short/medium-term approach to away areas is to advertise the back part for those who wish to stand and the front part for those who don't, but no club dare do this because it is seen as condoning standing in seated areas. Fabulous. At last we are starting to deal with some of the objections that people like myself and Spiderpuss were raising! In an ideal world we would have stadia that could cater for both seated and standing preferences with properly designed for purpose facilities. Our stadia have developed along the lines they have because of bitter and life costing experiences to the point where seat free areas are just a none starter (for at least a generation) due to the expense. You have confirmed already as I understand it that a terrace stand costs more than a seated one and an entirely new stand would have to be constructed to provide standing because the seat construction stands are unsuitable for straight conversion? If agreement can be reached with the licensing authorities to allow standing in designated areas without the major reconstruction programme that is suggested by the items displayed in your roadshow, then everyone is a winner. Im somewhat at a loss as to why similar arangements cannot be made for visiting supporters? Perhaps you can expand on this. If I take the example of our own stadium it seems an easier solution to provide in the away stand than in the home sections to be honest. Supporters there buy on a single match basis and the designated standing allowed section can be sold according to preference. In the home sections you have the problem of a lot of long standing (no pun intended) season ticket holders having to be moved around according to their preference. In many ways standing but retaining the seat option is a best solution. It also negates the other potential issues with standing only areas raised earlier. I am at a loss as to why this proposal was not aired earlier given it is clearly a far more practical and realistic solution than that which I still see as waste of FSF time in the medium term (thus rendering it insignificant compared to other football related issues). However, that is water under the bridge. I look forward to your comments regarding application in the away stand. As a matter of principle surely we have to offer like for like facilities for home and away supporters. Particular true as standing up appears to be more of an away supporter issue?
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Post by MarkWolstanton on Jun 6, 2011 11:10:08 GMT
Interesting question. Safe standing at Hoffenheim The Boothen Seem pretty much the same to me. Cheers for that. Yes, they do look similar. Of course that doesn't tell us whether the Boothen is more or less than the 25% maximum angle allowed in the "Green Guide" which I think is a UK regulation. Its not. Stoke City have already confirmed they cannot just slot in a standing area as shown due to the terracing being inappropriate and the access and exit arrangements being similarly not fit for purpose. It is build a new stand time and make that two because if you do it for the home supporters you are surely morally obliged to do it for away fans too. Unless all of a sudden we are going down the road of differentiated pricing/facilities for home and away fans. Come on John. You know this! Malcolm's solution above is the only practical short/medium term one I have seen unless you still want to shove the standing areas in the corners. I have probably stood on more terraces over the past couple of years than most and I would recommend the last place to go is in the corner to stand. its crap to be honest.
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Post by Lakeland Potter on Jun 6, 2011 11:21:50 GMT
Mark, I wasn't saying that the design of the Hoffenheim terrace was similar to that of the Boothen End. And I certainly wasn't going to suggest that a standing block should be inserted in the middle of the Boothen - indeed, in my reply to Evans1863 earlier on the thread, I made it quite clear that was not really an option.
I was merely asking the question as to whether the angle of the Boothen was more or less than the green book maximum of 25 degrees. And agreeing with the previous poster that the angle of the Boothen and the Hoffenheim stand looked similar.
Do you know the answer to the question I posed? Is the angle of the Boothen more or less than the green book maximum of 25 degrees?
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Post by MarkWolstanton on Jun 6, 2011 11:25:49 GMT
Mark, I wasn't saying that the design of the Hoffenheim terrace was similar to that of the Boothen End. And I certainly wasn't going to suggest that a standing block should be inserted in the middle of the Boothen - indeed, in my reply to Evans1863 earlier on the thread, I made it quite clear that was not really an option. I was merely asking the question as to whether the angle of the Boothen was more or less than the green book maximum of 25 degrees. And agreeing with the previous poster that the angle of the Boothen and the Hoffenheim stand looked similar. Do you know the answer to the question I posed? Is the angle of the Boothen more or less than the green book maximum of 25 degrees? Hi John. Not suitable according to Stoke City as I have said on three seperate occasions in this thread now.
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Post by Lakeland Potter on Jun 6, 2011 11:29:48 GMT
Mark, I wasn't saying that the design of the Hoffenheim terrace was similar to that of the Boothen End. And I certainly wasn't going to suggest that a standing block should be inserted in the middle of the Boothen - indeed, in my reply to Evans1863 earlier on the thread, I made it quite clear that was not really an option. I was merely asking the question as to whether the angle of the Boothen was more or less than the green book maximum of 25 degrees. And agreeing with the previous poster that the angle of the Boothen and the Hoffenheim stand looked similar. Do you know the answer to the question I posed? Is the angle of the Boothen more or less than the green book maximum of 25 degrees? Hi John. Not suitable according to Stoke City as I have said on three seperate occasions in this thread now. Mark, I'm not arguing about the SUITABILITY of the Boothen for standing. I am simply wondering what a terrace angle of 25 degrees or a little below (as per the green book) looks like and I am simply asking what the angles of the Boothen (upper and lower) are!
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Post by MarkWolstanton on Jun 6, 2011 11:43:17 GMT
Hi John. Not suitable according to Stoke City as I have said on three seperate occasions in this thread now. Mark, I'm not arguing about the SUITABILITY of the Boothen for standing. I am simply wondering what a terrace angle of 25 degrees or a little below (as per the green book) looks like and I am simply asking what the angles of the Boothen (upper and lower) are! I would worry if I knew the angles of such things John. All I know is what I have told you, sorry. Ill meet you with my daughter's protractor next home game ;D
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Post by tampon on Jun 6, 2011 11:43:48 GMT
I'm with MarkWolstanton on this one, get a grip John. The whole thing needs a complete rework, you can't just implement a corner for standing because that's too easy and corners are rubbish. What you'd have to do is sell all of our best players, demolish the Boothen, rebuild it all from scratch incorporating safe standing areas... then because it wouldn't be fair to the away fans for some reason we'd have to knock down that stand too, rebuild that with super-safe standing zones. Then we'd have to house the away fans that wanted to sit so we'd have to build a fifth stand hovering above the pitch with seriously restricted viewing problems. We're talking around a billion pounds here.
Worst idea ever.
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Post by Lakeland Potter on Jun 6, 2011 11:45:00 GMT
What we need is a decent inclinometer. I suppose you could make one using a protractor length of wood or metal and a plumb bob.
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Post by Lakeland Potter on Jun 6, 2011 11:46:13 GMT
I'm with MarkWolstanton on this one, get a grip John. The whole thing needs a complete rework, you can't just implement a corner for standing because that's too easy and corners are rubbish. What you'd have to do is sell all of our best players, demolish the Boothen, rebuild it all from scratch incorporating safe standing areas... then because it wouldn't be fair to the away fans for some reason we'd have to knock down that stand too, rebuild that with super-safe standing zones. Then we'd have to house the away fans that wanted to sit so we'd have to build a fifth stand hovering above the pitch with seriously restricted viewing problems. We're talking around a billion pounds here. Worst idea ever. Ah - when you put it as clearly as that.......... ! ;D Makes the Butler Steet roof debacle seem like a walk in the park!
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Post by Orbs on Jun 6, 2011 11:49:42 GMT
I'm with MarkWolstanton on this one, get a grip John. The whole thing needs a complete rework, you can't just implement a corner for standing because that's too easy and corners are rubbish. What you'd have to do is sell all of our best players, demolish the Boothen, rebuild it all from scratch incorporating safe standing areas... then because it wouldn't be fair to the away fans for some reason we'd have to knock down that stand too, rebuild that with super-safe standing zones. Then we'd have to house the away fans that wanted to sit so we'd have to build a fifth stand hovering above the pitch with seriously restricted viewing problems. We're talking around a billion pounds here. Worst idea ever. I've heard that Scunthorpe are actually considering this. Good shout UA.
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Post by Lakeland Potter on Jun 6, 2011 11:52:28 GMT
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Post by MarkWolstanton on Jun 6, 2011 11:58:37 GMT
I'm with MarkWolstanton on this one, get a grip John. The whole thing needs a complete rework, you can't just implement a corner for standing because that's too easy and corners are rubbish. What you'd have to do is sell all of our best players, demolish the Boothen, rebuild it all from scratch incorporating safe standing areas... then because it wouldn't be fair to the away fans for some reason we'd have to knock down that stand too, rebuild that with super-safe standing zones. Then we'd have to house the away fans that wanted to sit so we'd have to build a fifth stand hovering above the pitch with seriously restricted viewing problems. We're talking around a billion pounds here. Worst idea ever. I've heard that Scunthorpe are actually considering this. Good shout UA. Its also part of Mo Chaudry's ahead with the Vale manifesto apparently. It is next to his plans to re-introduce the Vale Market in the Lorne Street ladies toilets on the basis that they are available and therefore are the answer.
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Post by salopstick on Jun 6, 2011 12:01:17 GMT
first lets get the law changed.
clubs should be able to implement safe standing but it will have to be in conjunction with new guidelines brought in by a new law
then clubs can look in to how it would work in their own stadiums. i dont think terracing should come back just to increase capacaity. 1 seat = 1 standing
by the tunnel in the john smiths lower would be an ideal place to start as would the lower rows of the away allocation
on a separate note if and when the corners are filled in they should be seats for non season ticket holders only, just to start increasing the support
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Post by MarkWolstanton on Jun 6, 2011 12:23:34 GMT
first lets get the law changed. clubs should be able to implement safe standing but it will have to be in conjunction with new guidelines brought in by a new law then clubs can look in to how it would work in their own stadiums. i dont think terracing should come back just to increase capacaity. 1 seat = 1 standing by the tunnel in the john smiths lower would be an ideal place to start as would the lower rows of the away allocation on a separate note if and when the corners are filled in they should be seats for non season ticket holders only, just to start increasing the support A more workable solution than planting a standing area next to the Family Stand and the away supporters stand (which is allocated in its entirity for certain games such as FA Cup ties). However it still requires summounting severe problems such as the replacement of terraces, exits and segregation of facilities etc, etc. I just dont think our club or any other that has gone down the road of all seater facilities are going to give this any time at all. It just isnt as straightforward as some sem to think.
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Post by salopstick on Jun 6, 2011 13:05:16 GMT
first lets get the law changed. clubs should be able to implement safe standing but it will have to be in conjunction with new guidelines brought in by a new law then clubs can look in to how it would work in their own stadiums. i dont think terracing should come back just to increase capacaity. 1 seat = 1 standing by the tunnel in the john smiths lower would be an ideal place to start as would the lower rows of the away allocation on a separate note if and when the corners are filled in they should be seats for non season ticket holders only, just to start increasing the support A more workable solution than planting a standing area next to the Family Stand and the away supporters stand (which is allocated in its entirity for certain games such as FA Cup ties). However it still requires summounting severe problems such as the replacement of terraces, exits and segregation of facilities etc, etc. I just dont think our club or any other that has gone down the road of all seater facilities are going to give this any time at all. It just isnt as straightforward as some sem to think. one thing at a time mark, like i said lets just give clubs the choice to look into it how they see fit within a changed law as long as it was policed/stewarded correctly with no extra capacity i dont see why there needs to be different exits and facilities segragation i would like to think that ticketing would be done correctly what we are talking about imo is swapping a thousand seats for standing space not going back to the days of over crowding people in terraces
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Post by MarkWolstanton on Jun 6, 2011 13:15:55 GMT
A more workable solution than planting a standing area next to the Family Stand and the away supporters stand (which is allocated in its entirity for certain games such as FA Cup ties). However it still requires summounting severe problems such as the replacement of terraces, exits and segregation of facilities etc, etc. I just dont think our club or any other that has gone down the road of all seater facilities are going to give this any time at all. It just isnt as straightforward as some sem to think. one thing at a time mark, like i said lets just give clubs the choice to look into it how they see fit within a changed law as long as it was policed/stewarded correctly with no extra capacity i dont see why there needs to be different exits and facilities segragation i would like to think that ticketing would be done correctly what we are talking about imo is swapping a thousand seats for standing space not going back to the days of over crowding people in terraces Yep. Good points. I agree that the solution will not increase capacity as many think. If you look at the pics supplied by malcolm it confirms this. Its not going to be the old swaying massed banks of the past and I think many people might be getting the impression it would and hence some of the enthusiasm. It would be very steralised which is another reason Im somewhat unconvinced by it all.
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Post by Malcolm Clarke on Jun 6, 2011 13:44:23 GMT
We'll have to be careful, Mark - we are in danger of agreeing here You are quite right that the "cardiff" principle can be applied in away areas. It's just that it requires both clubs to work together rather than the home club being able to introduce something for their own fans. I think it didn't appear earlier in the thread because the focus of the discussion was about the rail seats roadshow and the law. The problem is that the authorities persist in the view that standing in seated areas is too unsafe. We ( When I say "we" I mean the FSF btw) think there is no real evidence to suggest that standing in seated areas poses a significant safety risk, although we do accept that it poses customer care issues for those who can't or don't want to stand. We need a proper open, evidence-based debate on it. I'll put in the caveat that the position may well be different for upper tiers, particularly the high, steep upper tiers at places like Old Trafford ( or Wembley - although at the concert for Diana, for example, no-one batted an eyelid when almost the whole stadium including the top tier, were standing, and swaying singing along with Rod Stewart singing 'sailing' ) Trafford Borough Council commissioned an independent external consultants report (the Atkins report) into the safety of standing in seated areas at Old Trafford. It concluded that the most dangerous time is when people quickly jump up at moments of excitement e.g when a goal is scored. The 2nd most dangerous time is when spectators are exiting the area at the end of the game or half time (because stewards never make us do it row by row as you when leaving church ;D). The least dangerous time is during normal play when supporters are laregely standing still. And which of those is the only time stewards ever try to force people to sit down ? We all know the answer to that, which is why authority often has no credibility with fans. The Premier League have themselves commissioned 2 reports on standing in seated areas in the last 5 years but refuse to publish either. We wonder why. I suspect it's because the conclusions could be used by us. There is more than one authority involved here. There is the national Football Licensing Authority and for each club there is their local Council which issues the safety certificate. And they each behave differently. At Wolves, the issue has blown up because the local council are threatening to take out of use 500 seats in the Jack Harris stand because of persistent standing. Sunderland have similar problems.Other LAs clearly take a more relaxed stance, including presumably, S-O-T. In practice, a lot of safety officers are increasingly making little or no effort to make people sit down, either because they don't think it's a safety risk or because they think the disorder consequences of attempted enforcement, particularly for a big away crowd, mean that letting people stand is the lesser of the evils. The law about the top 2 divisions should be removed because it's unnecessary and illogical and clubs should be able to take their own decisions within the Green Guide, preferably in consultation with their fans. Could the Boothen or part of it be converted to rail seats ? That's a technical question requiring a technical answer. I see that Mark has been told No - which may well be correct - but we have lots of experience of being told things about football and football grounds by people in official positions to get fobbed off which turn out to be untrue. That's why on this and other issues we get our own expert advice where possible. I'm sure Jon Darch knows more about the technical and feasibility aspects of this than many responsible for ground management and safety who are employed by clubs and authorities. If you want to meet an anorak on stand gradients, sightlines, heights of rails and capacities per square metre - Jon's your man !
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Post by One-Two on Jun 6, 2011 13:55:35 GMT
Looks like the Oatcake is having some technical difficulties because posts keep disappearing.
Like mine, Fornside's and Orbital's posts regarding other posts which had disappeared.
Someone had better get onto Proboards about it.
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Post by Orbs on Jun 6, 2011 13:59:04 GMT
Where have all the posts gone?
???
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Post by Lakeland Potter on Jun 6, 2011 14:01:00 GMT
Mark W - regarding Marcolm Clarke's last paragraph in his last post - would it be possible for Jon Darch to be given membership rights to post on this board? If he is the FSF's expert it would be easier and quicker for him to comment on technical points rather than for Malcolm to have to relay them.
Cheers
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Post by french toast on Jun 6, 2011 14:09:58 GMT
Where have all the posts gone? ??? Mark didn't agree with some people on this board and wrongly accused me of being banned and setting up another account in my current user name, he then tried to get a rise out of me by insulting my intelligence. By this time the plot had been lost! So in my opinion he deleted posts from certain posters and himself to stop himself from losing credibility! Just my tuppence worth! I will reiterate - JUST MY OPINION.
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Post by BoxxyTheLost on Jun 6, 2011 14:13:35 GMT
Well that completely ruined what was a good thread. Value of an opinion eh...
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