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Post by Deleted on Jun 1, 2011 14:19:58 GMT
In an ideal world we’ll strengthen in all the areas that need strengthening.
I will just never agree that Snodgrass is a better addition for us than Joe Cole.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Jun 1, 2011 14:23:00 GMT
In an ideal world I agree but this isn't and other areas need the money throwing at them more than the wings. If there was some quality winger in Spain that we could for cheap that is better then go for it. But getting a 30 year old in on massive wages who may/may not be better than what we have seems daft to me.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Jun 1, 2011 14:26:36 GMT
With Europe next season we could be easily looking at 50+ games over the course of the campaign, that’s without any International matches some of our players will end up playing in. We need to have a bigger squad in order to cope with this and we need to improve on the quality also. At the end of last season the lack of any game changers or match winners on the bench cost us. I get the feeling from some of the posts on here that some are actually concerned about upsetting Pennant and Ethers by bringing in some top quality additions and would prefer to bring in smaller names or less quality as back up to these 2. The reality should be the complete opposite. We should be looking to buy top-drawer players that are better than the best players we already have, not players that are better than the back up. Its all well and good having Ethers and Pennant flying high at the moment but what happens when one, or both, pick up a knock or a suspension or just need a rest etc? We need to add a player like Joe Cole and then its up to Tone to manage them all, that’s what he’s paid for. Competition is healthy, it brings the best out of players. I certainly wouldn’t lower our aspirations when looking to bring in a new winger, the top players relish the challenge, and any player coming to Stoke will be well aware we have 2 great wingers already and will have to impress to get the shirt, and keep on top of their game to keep the shirt. Signing Joe Cole to provide competition for JP & Matty, would be like us signing an absolute top drawer centre back on massive wages, to provide competition for Huth and Ryan. Such a player isn't going to be interested in joining us, unless he's going to be guaranteed to start. Indeed the last time TP had three players with similar expectations, vying for two positions, he ended up playing all three of them, with Huth being played out of position at right back. In a perfect world, we would have 22 players, all the equal of each other in ability but it just isn't viable, either financially or politically in the dressing room.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 1, 2011 14:30:03 GMT
Well if we are to believe what we are being told, Joe Cole IS a target for Tony so he must have some kind of plan to accomodate them all.
I don't really buy the centre back comparison either. If you've got a settled pairing at the back, you keep with it. Wingers are more interchangeable and it happens at most clubs.
Back 4's plus GK's tend to stay as they are if they are a solid unit. I fully buy into the idea of signing a back up for Ryan and Huth.
I don't think it applies to wingers though.
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Post by toddyssilkyskills on Jun 1, 2011 14:31:11 GMT
You have some decent back up like a Snodgrass. It's like trying to buy better centre backs than what we have, it's pointless unless we can them on the cheap. Because we simply don't need them. I'd rather see the big bucks being spent on the full back, central midfield and striker areas because that's where better players are needed. For the wings we simply need decent back up. And what if (God forbid) we don't get to the group stage of Europe? We'd be lumbered with expensive players that we didn't need. Signing a Cole/SWP for the wing to me makes no sense at all. We don't need them or their wages. Even on loan? No substitute for depth of Quality. Say we pick up an early injury to our winger, we have to go until January until we can do something about it with our back up player. We have room for 3 top quality wingers easily. Especially as they are a Big part of how we play.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 1, 2011 14:32:39 GMT
You have some decent back up like a Snodgrass. It's like trying to buy better centre backs than what we have, it's pointless unless we can them on the cheap. Because we simply don't need them. I'd rather see the big bucks being spent on the full back, central midfield and striker areas because that's where better players are needed. For the wings we simply need decent back up. And what if (God forbid) we don't get to the group stage of Europe? We'd be lumbered with expensive players that we didn't need. Signing a Cole/SWP for the wing to me makes no sense at all. We don't need them or their wages. Even on loan? No substitute for depth of Quality. Say we pick up an early injury to our winger, we have to go until January until we can do something about it with our back up player. We have room for 3 top quality wingers easily. Especially as they are a Big part of how we play. This. Exactly this.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 1, 2011 14:32:49 GMT
Look, it really boils down to this. If Joe Cole is, somehow, different to Tuncay, Gudjohnsen, Patrik Berger etc and wouldn't be a waste of time and money in our system, which of the following roles do you see him occupying:
1) A place on the wings instead of Etherington or Pennant 2) A place on the bench covering Etherington and Pennant (bearing in mind that he's stated publicly his unhappiness at being a bit part player at Liverpool and is allegedly on around £90,000 a week) 3) A place in central midfield, where throughout Tony Pulis' eight years at the club, players have, first and foremost, had to stay disciplined, primarily defensive-minded, strong and able to put a tackle in. Also a position in which Joe Cole has rarely played regularly for a good decade or so. 4) A place up front, where traditionally players in a Pulis system have to be strong and good in the air. 5) A place in the hole, a position which has rarely existed in a Tony Pulis system and which hasn't looked effective on the handful of occasions on which it has been tried.
Evolution is gradual. It means keeping the fundamental characteristics of the side the same and refining them by adding some guile to them. It doesn't mean completely swapping one for the other.
Seriously, it's an interesting debate, I'd like to know what's going to change so radically, and why, for this to be a good idea.
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Post by toddyssilkyskills on Jun 1, 2011 14:33:28 GMT
It's where rotation comes into play, players have to keep playing out of their skin to keep their position, it IS where the club is at now.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 1, 2011 14:34:36 GMT
None of those options.
Over the course of a season they could all play there part in the first team. They could all play 30+ games each. And it would be great to have 2 top-drawer options if one of them was injured/suspended/needed a rest/out of form.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Jun 1, 2011 14:35:36 GMT
You have some decent back up like a Snodgrass. It's like trying to buy better centre backs than what we have, it's pointless unless we can them on the cheap. Because we simply don't need them. I'd rather see the big bucks being spent on the full back, central midfield and striker areas because that's where better players are needed. For the wings we simply need decent back up. And what if (God forbid) we don't get to the group stage of Europe? We'd be lumbered with expensive players that we didn't need. Signing a Cole/SWP for the wing to me makes no sense at all. We don't need them or their wages. Even on loan? No substitute for depth of Quality. Say we pick up an early injury to our winger, we have to go until January until we can do something about it with our back up player. We have room for 3 top quality wingers easily. Especially as they are a Big part of how we play. A loan would be better but he's on 90-100k a week at Liverpool so I don't think anything will happen. And I don't think we do, I couldn't see a Cole/SWP being happing with that role. And Pennant and Ethers wouldn't either if they were dropped. The ideal way to go for me is signing some youngster who is a prospect and will be chomping on the bit.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Jun 1, 2011 14:37:03 GMT
Well if we are to believe what we are being told, Joe Cole IS a target for Tony so he must have some kind of plan to accomodate them all. I don't really buy the centre back comparison either. If you've got a settled pairing at the back, you keep with it. Wingers are more interchangeable and it happens at most clubs. Back 4's plus GK's tend to stay as they are if they are a solid unit. I fully buy into the idea of signing a back up for Ryan and Huth. I don't think it applies to wingers though. That's almost word for word what you said about Tuncay chap. I think you've missed the point with the centre back comparisson ... where the players play is irrelevant, the point was about those individuals expectations of being in the starting XI.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 1, 2011 14:39:50 GMT
How is it missing the point?
You compared the situation to signing a top-drawer centre half on massive wages and its completely irrelevant.
Let me clarify: -
Centre half - when you get this position right, it tends to stay the same all season. So to replace Abdy, I'd be looking at cover, not direct competition
Wingers - more interchangeable, I'd bring in a top-drawer winger and splash the cash.
The evidence was there to be seen at the end of last season when our wingers got knocks and everyone had their prayer mats out.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Jun 1, 2011 14:44:13 GMT
How is it missing the point? You compared the situation to signing a top-drawer centre half on massive wages and its completely irrelevant. Let me clarify: - Centre half - when you get this position right, it tends to stay the same all season. So to replace Abdy, I'd be looking at cover, not direct competition Wingers - more interchangeable, I'd bring in a top-drawer winger and splash the cash. The evidence was there to be seen at the end of last season when our wingers got knocks and everyone had their prayer mats out. It's about the expectation of the individuals and the salary that you are paying them ... Joe Cole is not going to come to Stoke City to be rotated.
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Post by serpico on Jun 1, 2011 14:44:26 GMT
Debating over whether or not we should sign Joe Cole, it's definitely a strange time to be a stoke fan ;D
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Post by miltonpotterfan on Jun 1, 2011 14:44:48 GMT
Hes Ath Madrid bound.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Jun 1, 2011 14:44:51 GMT
Well I would have been happy with Ben Marshall playing. ;D
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Post by Deleted on Jun 1, 2011 14:47:34 GMT
Time will tell if J Cole comes here or not but that’s the calibre of player we need to be targeting and that is exactly my point.
Quality, not quantity.
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Post by toddyssilkyskills on Jun 1, 2011 14:48:33 GMT
Even on loan? No substitute for depth of Quality. Say we pick up an early injury to our winger, we have to go until January until we can do something about it with our back up player. We have room for 3 top quality wingers easily. Especially as they are a Big part of how we play. A loan would be better but he's on 90-100k a week at Liverpool so I don't think anything will happen. And I don't think we do, I couldn't see a Cole/SWP being happing with that role. And Pennant and Ethers wouldn't either if they were dropped. The ideal way to go for me is signing some youngster who is a prospect and will be chomping on the bit. We only played with both wingers as first names on the team sheet towards the end of the season. I believe Tony has finally seen the light and to expect both Matty & Pennant, to be uninjured, match fit and unsuspended through the entire season is asking a lot, to have 2 Top end wingers and a fall back option is defeating the object of progress and you are placing your fortunes in the hand of Lady luck. I'm pretty sure that if it's not Cole we will see a winger equally as good as our current 2 signed up for the start of the season, and rightly so imo.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 1, 2011 14:50:18 GMT
A loan would be better but he's on 90-100k a week at Liverpool so I don't think anything will happen. And I don't think we do, I couldn't see a Cole/SWP being happing with that role. And Pennant and Ethers wouldn't either if they were dropped. The ideal way to go for me is signing some youngster who is a prospect and will be chomping on the bit. We only played with both wingers as first names on the team sheet towards the end of the season. I believe Tony has finally seen the light and to expect both Matty & Pennant, to be uninjured, match fit and unsuspended through the entire season is asking a lot, to have 2 Top end wingers and a fall back option is defeating the object of progress and you are placing your fortunes in the hand of Lady luck. I'm pretty sure that if it's not Cole we will see a winger equally as good as our current 2 signed up for the start of the season, and rightly so imo. Yep, completely agree mate. Our wingers are vital to how we play. We need 3 quality wingers that can interchange, not 2 quality wingers with the hope they play 50+ games without injury/fatigue/suspension/loss of form affecting them, with a medicorce back up option.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Jun 1, 2011 14:51:00 GMT
Debating over whether or not we should sign Joe Cole, it's definitely a strange time to be a stoke fan ;D Two years ago, people were similarily raising their eyebrows, when we were discussing the singing of Tuncay, Serps ... he seemed a huge coup at the time and people couldn't believe that some of us were questioning how or where he would fit in.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Jun 1, 2011 14:51:34 GMT
A loan would be better but he's on 90-100k a week at Liverpool so I don't think anything will happen. And I don't think we do, I couldn't see a Cole/SWP being happing with that role. And Pennant and Ethers wouldn't either if they were dropped. The ideal way to go for me is signing some youngster who is a prospect and will be chomping on the bit. We only played with both wingers as first names on the team sheet towards the end of the season. I believe Tony has finally seen the light and to expect both Matty & Pennant, to be uninjured, match fit and unsuspended through the entire season is asking a lot, to have 2 Top end wingers and a fall back option is defeating the object of progress and you are placing your fortunes in the hand of Lady luck. I'm pretty sure that if it's not Cole we will see a winger equally as good as our current 2 signed up for the start of the season, and rightly so imo. Yup but I was calling for back up to the wingers last summer and in January. Well in the summer it was that we needed 2 wingers. My stance hasn't changed we need a decent back up. If we signed a winger as good as the current 2 and it didn't upset the apple cart then brilliant. But at this moment in time I think it's daft. Especially if they cost us a decent transfer fee and were 50k+. That money is better used elsewhere.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 1, 2011 14:52:50 GMT
I think we all need to club in and get Spencer a medal or he'll never stop banging on about Tuncay in this thread!!
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Post by str8outtahampton on Jun 1, 2011 14:56:07 GMT
I reckon Cole (J) is extremely skilful. Even WHU fans I know regard him with some affection - which is remarkable in the context of how they have reacted to Lampard, Incey Wincey and so on.
He also lacks pace and would be a very expensive recurrent cost, whatever the basis of a deal. Plus I am not certain he is risk-free in terms of fitness.
However, I do not think those are the clinching arguments. I just do not imagine that Mr Cole would be prepared to play for SCFC. It goes without saying that he could (and would) wd live in Cheshire or similar. But I doubt he (and equally significantly the current Mrs Cole) would consider Stoke as anything other than a bridge too far. Liverpool, yes. Aston Villa (for example), possibly. Us, no.
I am not quite saying it will not happen. Merely (as Jeeves might have said) that "That contingency is unlikely to arise".
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Post by sirpineapple89 on Jun 1, 2011 14:59:05 GMT
We only played with both wingers as first names on the team sheet towards the end of the season. I believe Tony has finally seen the light and to expect both Matty & Pennant, to be uninjured, match fit and unsuspended through the entire season is asking a lot, to have 2 Top end wingers and a fall back option is defeating the object of progress and you are placing your fortunes in the hand of Lady luck. I'm pretty sure that if it's not Cole we will see a winger equally as good as our current 2 signed up for the start of the season, and rightly so imo. Yep, completely agree mate. Our wingers are vital to how we play. We need 3 quality wingers that can interchange, not 2 quality wingers with the hope they play 50+ games without injury/fatigue/suspension/loss of form affecting them, with a medicorce back up option. Decent competition is now an absolute must. The only problem with signing players with quality is that they're going to want certain guarantees about the amount of game time they're going to get. If you mentioned 'rotation' to Joe Cole, he'd be out of Pulis' office like a shot. This pre-season could be a difficult one. We can bring in back up players who are happy to part of the squad or go for players of a better quality who are likely to rock the boat if they're not playing week in, week out. We're going to have issues keeping players happy, whoever we sign. It'll be interesting to see who we do go for. Honest and hard-working or quality with a tendancy to be a complete mardarse.
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Post by toddyssilkyskills on Jun 1, 2011 15:00:04 GMT
I think we all need to club in and get Spencer a medal or he'll never stop banging on about Tuncay in this thread!! ;D
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Post by Paul Spencer on Jun 1, 2011 15:00:33 GMT
A loan would be better but he's on 90-100k a week at Liverpool so I don't think anything will happen. And I don't think we do, I couldn't see a Cole/SWP being happing with that role. And Pennant and Ethers wouldn't either if they were dropped. The ideal way to go for me is signing some youngster who is a prospect and will be chomping on the bit. We only played with both wingers as first names on the team sheet towards the end of the season. I believe Tony has finally seen the light and to expect both Matty & Pennant, to be uninjured, match fit and unsuspended through the entire season is asking a lot, to have 2 Top end wingers and a fall back option is defeating the object of progress and you are placing your fortunes in the hand of Lady luck. I'm pretty sure that if it's not Cole we will see a winger equally as good as our current 2 signed up for the start of the season, and rightly so imo. I broadly agree with this, although we didn't only play with two wingers until towards the end of the season. We do need to ensure that we can field two wingers week in week out, as they most certainly are intrinsic to how we (successfully) play. However the key is striking the correct balance between the expectation of the players you sign and the individual calibre of those specifc players. Harry Redknapp plays with two wingers but does he also have players of the calibre of Lennon and Bale on his books? If Swansea hadn't been promoted, then somebody like Sinclair would have made a perfect candidate. His expectation could be managed, whilst at the same time he would provide adequate cover when required. ManU play in Europe every season but they don't have 11 players of equal ability as their first team waiting in the wings, we can't expect to have either.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 1, 2011 15:03:59 GMT
Redknapp is not a great example to use for your argument.
He has Krancjar, Modric, Huddlestone, Sandro, Palacios, Jenas and Pienaar all for the 2 midfield places.
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Post by stokiejayjay on Jun 1, 2011 15:04:49 GMT
We only played with both wingers as first names on the team sheet towards the end of the season. I believe Tony has finally seen the light and to expect both Matty & Pennant, to be uninjured, match fit and unsuspended through the entire season is asking a lot, to have 2 Top end wingers and a fall back option is defeating the object of progress and you are placing your fortunes in the hand of Lady luck. I'm pretty sure that if it's not Cole we will see a winger equally as good as our current 2 signed up for the start of the season, and rightly so imo. Yep, completely agree mate. Our wingers are vital to how we play. We need 3 quality wingers that can interchange, not 2 quality wingers with the hope they play 50+ games without injury/fatigue/suspension/loss of form affecting them, with a medicorce back up option. Have to agree how can two wingers be expected to play almost 50+ games, one of them could take a bad knock and be out for ages with then a young (back up player) playing constantly, with then no back up for him. With 3 quality wingers the competition for a place would be good and performances would improve. And we would have a player who could come off the bench and change a game. Imo Etherington has looked vey tired at the end of this season and we have been crying out for another quality player to come on allowing ethers to be rested. Im all for the signing of Joe Cole or a player similiar. In order to progress continuously as we are doing currently, competition for places has to improve along with the squad depth, and the quality of players.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Jun 1, 2011 15:13:44 GMT
Redknapp is not a great example to use for your argument. He has Krancjar, Modric, Huddlestone, Sandro, Palacios, Jenas and Pienaar all for the 2 midfield places. And there's a pecking order for those places. He hasn't got a winger 'as good as' Bale to cover for Bale and he hasn't got a winger 'as good as' Lennon to cover for Lennon, even though wingers are very much a part of his game plan. Do you really think that Joe Cole is going to come to Stoke to be a part of a rotation process?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 1, 2011 15:15:41 GMT
Lennon and Bale are the only stand out wingers when you look at the squad but beyond that, the likes of Modric, Krancjar, Pienaar and Rose are all attacking players that can fill in there.
When you take into account Van der Vaart plays the position he does too, you can hardly say Redknapp is a great example to back up your argument!
He has a fuck load of quality battling it out for positions!!!
You're saying we have 2 good wingers for 2 positions so lets settle and get a back up in when what we should be doing is going for a third quality winger.
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