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Post by jstephenson6 on Jan 3, 2011 2:45:40 GMT
I haven't been on here in a while but thought I would come on here tonight and have a look around. I can't help but say what I think and I'm pretty sure I'll get slaughtered but well, I feel I need to say it.
What's this obsession with calling very technical, skillfull football tippy tappy shit, you make yourselves just as worse than the people who you get pissed off for calling Stoke a one dimensional long ball team, which essentially is true.
I don't know if any of you watched el clasico this season (Barcelona Vs Real Madrid) but in my opinion it was the best game of football I've ever seen in my life, the technique, skill and movement of Barcelona is second to none, and they aren't tippy tappy, they will get physical if they need to be but they are so quick of thought and skillfull that they make the game look effortless and just incredible.
I just think that we are all getting so obsessed and defensive of our style of play, which is not the way I would play or choose to play/watch however I can see that it works and why change a working formula?
There seems to be some sort of mentality here that everyone is against Stoke everyone hates Stoke etc etc etc. The only reason people might have a problem with Stoke is because of the way we play. I've seen pretty much every game streamed or later on match choice this season, and it's not particularly pretty, we might create and score more goals and win games against teams, but it's not particularly interesting/exciting to me, and seeing my team have regularly 40% possession and pass completion being around 50% is pretty shit to me, seems like a sunday league stat.
Whilst I know everyone hates stats, Stoke have made 600 successful passes less than the nearest team, Blackburn this season, 2000 less than the likes of West Brom, Newcastle, Bolton etc. I want to see Stoke in possession of the football, passing it around, we are good enough too, if Blackpool can do it then we certainly can because our team is a lot better than theirs.
And it's starting to affect me, and I am an obsessive Stoke fan, I have everything Stoke, I love everything football I am absolutely obsessed with the sport. I have already played 10 seasons on the new football manager with us, trying to implement a beautiful passing game into our team, 2 seasons on FIFA trying to play passing football. As much as this is sad, I try at any given moment to try and get Stoke to play in the way that I feel football should be played.
No I don't want Stoke to play like Barcelona (well I do) but I know it's not realistic and achievable at the moment, but something that requires a bit more than hitting it 40 yards in the air hoping for a flick on would be a start. The way in which Stoke play, just seems to make me less and less excited about Stoke. Somehow I find it hard to muster a cheer when I see another long ball get knocked down and put in the net, I'd like to see a bit more flair, creativity involved, something I rarely see in our games.
To me, there is a lot more to Stoke and football than us being in the Premiership doing well. I look back at it now, and I was so much happier under the Thordason, Boskamp etc days, now I'm not saying they were good managers, but at least I felt excited about Stoke City. Pulis respectively has done a fantastic job raising Stoke to the profile they are now, but it fills me with no excitement whatsoever. I'm not having a go at anyone here through this post, I would fucking love to be in the position of one of you who is absolutely loving it right now, because I would absolutely love to be excited about Stoke, but unfortunately I'm not and I think this Pulis style of football has made a lot of us convince ourself that it's not that bad because our beloved Stoke team is playing in this style, as our love for the club is so strong that we hate to criticise it, especially when we are doing well.
Similarly, I absolutely guarantee that say we were playing this 'tippy tappy' football and another team were playing this pecentage, long ball football, people would be cursing them saying how boring they are, the lack of technique etc etc.
Personally, I'm no fan of it, and possibly (I don't mind admitting it) biased against it as I have learnt to play and watch football and have certain ideas about what I like and what I think is good.
I will always love Stoke City and still probably watch every game but the way we play is really really affecting my excitement and passion for us.
It depends on what people care about most I guess, the actual winning of the game, or the excitement of a game. For me it's the excitement, and Pulis and this Stoke team have taken all of the excitement out of the game for me, I can almost predict everything we do.
I want to be entertained and amazed by my Stoke City not see them bulldoze a team.
*prepares himself for stampeed*
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Post by stokeyhunter on Jan 3, 2011 3:06:02 GMT
read half way through then got bored don't know if its an arsenal fan taking the piss or not in fairness mate i hate to watch arsenal play nothing to do with the manager and there fans and players i dont like it simple as i think they spend too much time pissing around in there half like when Man City came to us and spent 5 mins passing it in there own half why? what does it get you? i class that as tippy tappy shit
whilst teams like barcelona blackpool wba etc play free flowing fast attacking football now thats proper football and teams like chelsea can do both i have nothing against it its just how teams like arsenal take ages and get nowhere and fall on there arse for no reason at all
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Post by bayernoatcake on Jan 3, 2011 3:07:12 GMT
I agree to an extent but I like the siege mentality and I think it brings the best out in the fans and the players. I agree with You about Barcelona vs Madrid though, fantastic game and probably the best game of football I've ever witnessed. I can't see any team replicating that ever again unless it's Barcelona.
Our passing is an issue and has been under Pulis since he was first appointed but essentially it doesn't cost us. We would be better if we could pass better and it would be nice if we kept the ball better and lots of people (myself included) want that. But possession stats mean fuck all. If it's boring to You then fair enough but on the whole I think we've improved this season and I find watching our wingers a joy. Our play can be improved though with better full backs and central midfielders and I don't think there is a Stoke fan in the land that doesn't realise that.
I don't want us to move too far away from where we are now. More passing is needed but a mix of long and short balls is needed. As ever it's the middle ground that I seek. We do need to pass it better in the middle of the park and we need full backs that can overlap but I don't want us to go all out passing.
There are two types of passing game too imo, there are the ones that pass it around all day trying to bore You death and then there are the incisive passers like Barcelona. Spain passed it well but bored the fuck out of me in the World Cup.
And as Bob Paisley said "It's not about the long ball or the short ball. It's about the right ball." and I fully agree with him.
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Post by PoisonedDonkey on Jan 3, 2011 3:10:29 GMT
I like how Barcelona play - Quick flowing attacking football.
I hate how Spain play - Slow pointless tippy tappy bollocks.
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Post by PickSCFC on Jan 3, 2011 3:48:24 GMT
I stopped reading when he said that he thought the barca v real game was the best hes ever seen, how the fuck can a 5-0 drubbing be the best game you have ever seen ???
anybody would think we played shit hot football before pulis came when in reality we were wank for years
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Post by bayernoatcake on Jan 3, 2011 3:51:06 GMT
I stopped reading when he said that he thought the barca v real game was the best hes ever seen, how the fuck can a 5-0 drubbing be the best game you have ever seen ??? Because it was. ;D It doesn't matter that it was a drubbing, the level of the performance from Barcelona was the best performance I've seen from a football team in my life. The score means nothing, it was the performance that did all the talking. It was the best game of football I have ever seen played by the best football team on the planet at the moment.
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Post by PickSCFC on Jan 3, 2011 4:01:35 GMT
I stopped reading when he said that he thought the barca v real game was the best hes ever seen, how the fuck can a 5-0 drubbing be the best game you have ever seen ??? Because it was. ;D It doesn't matter that it was a drubbing, the level of the performance from Barcelona was the best performance I've seen from a football team in my life. The score means nothing, it was the performance that did all the talking. It was the best game of football I have ever seen played by the best football team on the planet at the moment. Bolllocks It may have been a great performance from Barca, the best ever even but in my book a really good game is end to end stuff where both teams are competing, that Barca game was obviously too one sided, im glad I didnt fucking watch it
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Post by bayernoatcake on Jan 3, 2011 4:05:35 GMT
Because it was. ;D It doesn't matter that it was a drubbing, the level of the performance from Barcelona was the best performance I've seen from a football team in my life. The score means nothing, it was the performance that did all the talking. It was the best game of football I have ever seen played by the best football team on the planet at the moment. Bolllocks It may have been a great performance from Barca, the best ever even but in my book a really good game is end to end stuff where both teams are competing, that Barca game was obviously too one sided, im glad I didnt fucking watch it ;D You missed out! It didn't need to be end to end, Barcelona did enough attacking and played at such a speed that it was a joy to watch. It really was the best game of football I've ever watched. And lets not forget it was against Real Madrid with one of the best managers in the world at their helm. They are no mugs and to dispose of them in such a manner was impressive. Just found this; oatcakefanzine.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=Potters&action=display&thread=142755&page=6
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Post by PickSCFC on Jan 3, 2011 4:11:50 GMT
Bolllocks It may have been a great performance from Barca, the best ever even but in my book a really good game is end to end stuff where both teams are competing, that Barca game was obviously too one sided, im glad I didnt fucking watch it ;D You missed out! It didn't need to be end to end, Barcelona did enough attacking and played at such a speed that it was a joy to watch. It really was the best game of football I've ever watched. And lets not forget it was against Real Madrid with one of the best managers in the world at their helm. They are no mugs and to dispose of them in such a manner was impressive. Just found this; oatcakefanzine.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=Potters&action=display&thread=142755&page=6Seriously, I would have switched off at 3-0, these kind of games just dont appeal to me, it has to be a close run thing for me, i really enjoyed the chelsea v villa game earlier, espeicially at the end ;D Just been reading through that thread an noticed that nickscfc has deleted his account
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Post by sheikh al dubai bin stokie on Jan 3, 2011 6:00:36 GMT
I haven't been on here in a while but thought I would come on here tonight and have a look around. I can't help but say what I think and I'm pretty sure I'll get slaughtered but well, I feel I need to say it. What's this obsession with calling very technical, skillfull football tippy tappy shit, you make yourselves just as worse than the people who you get pissed off for calling Stoke a one dimensional long ball team, which essentially is true. I don't know if any of you watched el clasico this season (Barcelona Vs Real Madrid) but in my opinion it was the best game of football I've ever seen in my life, the technique, skill and movement of Barcelona is second to none, and they aren't tippy tappy, they will get physical if they need to be but they are so quick of thought and skillfull that they make the game look effortless and just incredible. I just think that we are all getting so obsessed and defensive of our style of play, which is not the way I would play or choose to play/watch however I can see that it works and why change a working formula? There seems to be some sort of mentality here that everyone is against Stoke everyone hates Stoke etc etc etc. The only reason people might have a problem with Stoke is because of the way we play. I've seen pretty much every game streamed or later on match choice this season, and it's not particularly pretty, we might create and score more goals and win games against teams, but it's not particularly interesting/exciting to me, and seeing my team have regularly 40% possession and pass completion being around 50% is pretty shit to me, seems like a sunday league stat. Whilst I know everyone hates stats, Stoke have made 600 successful passes less than the nearest team, Blackburn this season, 2000 less than the likes of West Brom, Newcastle, Bolton etc. I want to see Stoke in possession of the football, passing it around, we are good enough too, if Blackpool can do it then we certainly can because our team is a lot better than theirs. And it's starting to affect me, and I am an obsessive Stoke fan, I have everything Stoke, I love everything football I am absolutely obsessed with the sport. I have already played 10 seasons on the new football manager with us, trying to implement a beautiful passing game into our team, 2 seasons on FIFA trying to play passing football. As much as this is sad, I try at any given moment to try and get Stoke to play in the way that I feel football should be played. No I don't want Stoke to play like Barcelona (well I do) but I know it's not realistic and achievable at the moment, but something that requires a bit more than hitting it 40 yards in the air hoping for a flick on would be a start. The way in which Stoke play, just seems to make me less and less excited about Stoke. Somehow I find it hard to muster a cheer when I see another long ball get knocked down and put in the net, I'd like to see a bit more flair, creativity involved, something I rarely see in our games. To me, there is a lot more to Stoke and football than us being in the Premiership doing well. I look back at it now, and I was so much happier under the Thordason, Boskamp etc days, now I'm not saying they were good managers, but at least I felt excited about Stoke City. Pulis respectively has done a fantastic job raising Stoke to the profile they are now, but it fills me with no excitement whatsoever. I'm not having a go at anyone here through this post, I would fucking love to be in the position of one of you who is absolutely loving it right now, because I would absolutely love to be excited about Stoke, but unfortunately I'm not and I think this Pulis style of football has made a lot of us convince ourself that it's not that bad because our beloved Stoke team is playing in this style, as our love for the club is so strong that we hate to criticise it, especially when we are doing well. Similarly, I absolutely guarantee that say we were playing this 'tippy tappy' football and another team were playing this pecentage, long ball football, people would be cursing them saying how boring they are, the lack of technique etc etc. Personally, I'm no fan of it, and possibly (I don't mind admitting it) biased against it as I have learnt to play and watch football and have certain ideas about what I like and what I think is good. I will always love Stoke City and still probably watch every game but the way we play is really really affecting my excitement and passion for us. It depends on what people care about most I guess, the actual winning of the game, or the excitement of a game. For me it's the excitement, and Pulis and this Stoke team have taken all of the excitement out of the game for me, I can almost predict everything we do. I want to be entertained and amazed by my Stoke City not see them bulldoze a team. *prepares himself for stampeed* just out of interest - how old are you?
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Post by bettsy on Jan 3, 2011 7:12:02 GMT
I stopped reading when he said that he thought the barca v real game was the best hes ever seen, how the fuck can a 5-0 drubbing be the best game you have ever seen ??? anybody would think we played shit hot football before pulis came when in reality we were wank for years pick you are by far the most sad person on here, seriously why do you come on here!! ??? your posts are either arguementative or just trying to annoy fellow fans, you need get a life mate and quick!!
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Post by Northy on Jan 3, 2011 7:26:43 GMT
I think a few feel like you, what should be a great time being back in the top division again, and it is at times, is tainted by the durge of the tactics, especially what was seen against Fulham, Blackpool, 1st half Blackburn etc. players earning £10k-£20k a week unable to pass a football accuratley over 10 yards, and with what we have seen Blackpool achieve with a budget probably 6 times lower. Some people like it like that, they are just glad to be playing in the top league after years of and are enjoying the ride, others want purist football, something that sems to have been hyped up by the media, along with the PL I'm watching England v Brazil 1970 and it's amazing how much the so called skilful footballers of Brazil played the long ball at times when it was an advantage.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2011 7:51:24 GMT
It's a fair point. Being intolerant either way round is bigoted. I think the context is that, from the Stoke supporters side of things, when we arrived in the top flight, we were absolutely assaulted from all sides with the critical and damning condemnation of pretty much everyone. The worst of these critics did seem to be Arsenal fans who are holier than thou and feel that everyone actually should and indeed is attempting to play football like them.
The epiphany for us was realising that the Arsenal style of football only works as long as the opposition do not compete. They goad other teams into letting them outplay you. However when we competed, we beat them. In response, their players simulate injury, committed one of the worst on-field physical assaults I have seen (v. persie on our keeper) practised cheating to try (and often succeed) to get players sent off.
Once beaten, Arsenal's response was not to acknowledge the effort, fitness and competitiveness of Stoke, but to claim it was illegal, unethical and advocate changing the rules on things like throw-ins because it had undone them.
The hate for 'tippy-tappy' football is partially the hate for all the cheating and simulation that goes along with it and partially us asserting our right to play however we feel is effective, within the rules, but without some superior football snobs seeking to cheat, change the rules and still point an accusing finger at Stoke City while doing it.
Stoke do play good football. It is competitive, exciting and skillful. It is not the same as Arsenal, but it is no less valid and in many people's eyes it is more entertaining.
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Post by wuzza on Jan 3, 2011 8:05:28 GMT
We have had many many exciting games at the Brit in the past 3 years and the general match experience is great. If you are the commited fan you claim to be you will have experienced some of the dreadful stuff we endured for the previous 25 years. Dont wish to be dismissive but if you care so much about the 'style' of football stick to watching Barca or Aresnal from your armchair. Personally it does zilch for me.
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Post by therethere on Jan 3, 2011 8:20:06 GMT
It's a fair point. Being intolerant either way round is bigoted. I think the context is that, from the Stoke supporters side of things, when we arrived in the top flight, we were absolutely assaulted from all sides with the critical and damning condemnation of pretty much everyone. The worst of these critics did seem to be Arsenal fans who are holier than thou and feel that everyone actually should and indeed is attempting to play football like them. The epiphany for us was realising that the Arsenal style of football only works as long as the opposition do not compete. They goad other teams into letting them outplay you. However when we competed, we beat them. In response, their players simulate injury, committed one of the worst on-field physical assaults I have seen (v. persie on our keeper) practised cheating to try (and often succeed) to get players sent off. Once beaten, Arsenal's response was not to acknowledge the effort, fitness and competitiveness of Stoke, but to claim it was illegal, unethical and advocate changing the rules on things like throw-ins because it had undone them. The hate for 'tippy-tappy' football is partially the hate for all the cheating and simulation that goes along with it and partially us asserting our right to play however we feel is effective, within the rules, but without some superior football snobs seeking to cheat, change the rules and still point an accusing finger at Stoke City while doing it. Stoke do play good football. It is competitive, exciting and skillful. It is not the same as Arsenal, but it is no less valid and in many people's eyes it is more entertaining. Very well said mate
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Post by tuum on Jan 3, 2011 8:31:53 GMT
Tippy-tappy football is not a reference to any team who tries to play football by passing it around. It is a reference to this slow build up from the back that ultimately goes nowhere. You might say that a lot of what Stoke do goes nowhere but it goes nowhere in the opponents half of the field more often than on the edge of our own box. The display of passing from Man City recently was, in my opinion, nothing short of shite. 30 passes in their own half under limited pressure from Stoke players was and is a complete waste of time - I can only think that Man City were hoping to draw us out of our own half. We were content to defend in our own half in two banks of four and wait until they ventured over the half way line and promptly gave the ball away when they tried to make that 'telling' pass. Similarly, WBA or anyone else who spends (wastes) an inordinate amount of time passing the ball around in the middle third. For what it's worth. I don't think Arsenal are too bad. They seem to play at a faster pace than others and like to attack. Similarly, Man Utd and Chelsea who generally pass through the oposition at pace (altho' they have not been at their respective best this season). Italian football personifies, boring tippy-tappy shite for me (or at least it did the last time I could be arsed to watch any of it for more than 5mins at a time).
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Post by harryburrows on Jan 3, 2011 8:44:40 GMT
i dont entirely agree with this debate about tippy tappy VS long ball i think the long pass is different to the hoof out of defence that comes straight back at you [fulham] the love/ passion we have for stoke makes us a bit defensive of our style . we are bringing in talented ball players to the club ,we love it when they do something special .wouldnt it be great if we played a bit more measured, passing footie
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Post by stokie25 on Jan 3, 2011 8:52:08 GMT
That barca game was immense, but you wouldn't know pick because you didn't watch it The 'tippy tappy' footy debate could run and run but i doubt we'll ever have it at Stoke so i'll take a couple of wins like everton and liverpool played our own way
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Post by andystokie321111 on Jan 3, 2011 9:02:08 GMT
i would love us to play free flowing football but would not give up the premier league for it
sorry but we get to compete with some great teams every week and too me thats pretty exciting how can ya not be excited about stoke playing at old trafford tommorow
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Post by mayf on Jan 3, 2011 9:10:13 GMT
Long ball football is fine,if we're talking about 60 yard measured passes the likes of Hoddle used to do. The hoof it upfield and hope it drops for one of our players is absolute garbage when used as a main tactic and pretty much every even minded fan can see that.It's just Pulis that needs convincing
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Post by mayf on Jan 3, 2011 9:11:45 GMT
i would love us to play free flowing football but would not give up the premier league for it sorry but we get to compete with some great teams every week and too me thats pretty exciting how can ya not be excited about stoke playing at old trafford tommorow because in all likely hood we'll go there hoping not to lose by a wide margin rather than go there and try to beat them
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Post by phil51 on Jan 3, 2011 9:39:35 GMT
Long ball football is fine,if we're talking about 60 yard measured passes the likes of Hoddle used to do. The hoof it upfield and hope it drops for one of our players is absolute garbage when used as a main tactic and pretty much every even minded fan can see that.It's just Pulis that needs convincing I'm a fair-minded supporter and I totally disagree. The difference between hoofball and long, measured passes is the end result. In our case, it is successful less than when Chelsea do it. I wonder why???
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Post by slangking on Jan 3, 2011 9:55:52 GMT
I don't get how some prick who has watched Barcelona vs Real Madrid thinks we should be playing like Barcelona, even Real Madrid were hammered, this is what is wrong with the modern fan, they simply have no idea what being a 'fan' is all about, I would suggest you do what you normally do and sit on your arse watching the BIG games on TV and leave football to actual fans. Besides said prick's last post was when we played Liverpool last season, strange that..
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Post by Gods on Jan 3, 2011 9:56:35 GMT
I stopped at "barca v real madrid, best game ever..." because I thought "generic football fan" and I can read this stuff only much better written by generic football journalists.
But the answer to the question why do some folks call skillfull football "tippy-tappy-shit" is because others are calling our football "long-ball shit" and we are getting stuck in to some good banter. No more than that, no need to intellectualise it at all...
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Post by jstephenson6 on Jan 3, 2011 10:13:54 GMT
Stoke to play like Barcelona is unrealistic and silly. Pulis has got a working system at the moment so why change it in his mind, I'm not trying to make enemies, or be a dick, I just am saying that the way I think we play (I could be very wrong!) has made me a lot less passionate for Stoke. Maybe for me winning isn't the most important thing? I don't know I just wanted to come on here and say that, whilst also noting that people seem to call this other type football tippy-tappy shit. I just find the way Stoke play doesn't really work for me, i'm glad for everyone who thinks it's great, I wish I was in their position! Sorry if I offended anyone didn't come on here to get told to sit and watch Spanish football on my chair or to be called a prick.
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Post by stokelad84 on Jan 3, 2011 10:17:12 GMT
"I've seen pretty much every game streamed or later on match choice this season"
Where do you live then?
"It depends on what people care about most I guess, the actual winning of the game, or the excitement of a game. For me it's the excitement"
So you you would prefer to see an exciting game which Stoke would ultimately lose??
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Post by slangking on Jan 3, 2011 10:17:31 GMT
Stoke to play like Barcelona is unrealistic and silly. Pulis has got a working system at the moment so why change it in his mind, I'm not trying to make enemies, or be a dick, I just am saying that the way I think we play (I could be very wrong!) has made me a lot less passionate for Stoke. Maybe for me winning isn't the most important thing? I don't know I just wanted to come on here and say that, whilst also noting that people seem to call this other type football tippy-tappy shit. I just find the way Stoke play doesn't really work for me, i'm glad for everyone who thinks it's great, I wish I was in their position! Sorry if I offended anyone didn't come on here to get told to sit and watch Spanish football on my chair or to be called a prick. Obviously you aren't really a fan so frankly, WHO CARES?
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Post by roostersgonnagetya on Jan 3, 2011 10:20:25 GMT
I am fuelled by 51% result and 49% excitement, whilst I want Stoke to continue getting good results, I don't like it at all when we lose playing Sunday in the park 'lets hoof it because there is too many ditches in the pitch to play a ball along the floor' tactics and it annoys me when we do. Playing good football or football with invention and craft is important to me, I want to be entertained, I want to see opposistion teams taken apart at the seams by my team using a brilliant move or pass. Whilst I can see we are in 8th and doing better than any (points wise) of our realisitic club size rivals, a bit of middle ground wouldn't go a miss. We are too predictable and if at first we don't succeed with the hooof, we will try and try again. Anybody who has an ounce of unbias opinion will readily accept that it was a breath of fresh air to see Blackpool come to the Brit and play a game of Football that left us all inspired, this board after that game was testiment to it, people were drooling, it's because if we were a can of beans on the shelf in Tesco, we would be the ones that said 'Tesco Value' on them, on Blackpool's tin it says 'Heinz', would you pay 'Heinz' prices for 'Value' beans just so you can have beans on toast? For Blackpool fans beans on toast is their favourite meal, they get to eat 'Heinz' beans on their toast for 'Tesco value' prices. Triffic.
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Post by Lakeland Potter on Jan 3, 2011 10:21:52 GMT
Stoke to play like Barcelona is unrealistic and silly. Pulis has got a working system at the moment so why change it in his mind, I'm not trying to make enemies, or be a dick, I just am saying that the way I think we play (I could be very wrong!) has made me a lot less passionate for Stoke. Maybe for me winning isn't the most important thing? I don't know I just wanted to come on here and say that, whilst also noting that people seem to call this other type football tippy-tappy shit. I just find the way Stoke play doesn't really work for me, i'm glad for everyone who thinks it's great, I wish I was in their position! Sorry if I offended anyone didn't come on here to get told to sit and watch Spanish football on my chair or to be called a prick. It takes all sorts, I suppose. I remember the glory years of the 60s and early 70s and (for the first time since those days) I have now seen three successive seasons where I feel the club is moving, consistently and reasonably quickly, in the right direction. Of course, like all fans, I'd love to see some more expansive football on a more regular basis but NOT AT THE EXPENSE OF STAYING UP. And love him or hate him, TP is the first manager in 30 years who is delivering top flight football on, what looks increasingly like, a consistent basis. I have to pinch myself to come to terms with the fact that my club, which I have supported through thin and thinner all my life is now delivering competitive football at the top level thanks to St peter and TP.
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Post by harryburrows on Jan 3, 2011 10:23:57 GMT
love some of those little sausages too!!
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