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Post by wuzza on May 11, 2011 19:50:17 GMT
Bottom line is that football supporters often have very little sense of reason in what they say. Hysterical over-reaction is the order of the day ....especially on message boards. All you can hope for is that you have a manager who knows his own mind and is a sound judge of a player. Thank gawd we have !
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Post by french toast on May 11, 2011 19:55:25 GMT
some people look really silly in this thread
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Post by sihanouk on May 11, 2011 20:07:51 GMT
I'm sure there are a lot of Liverpool fans feeling sheepish about the stick they gave to Maxi as well. And Lucas, I can feel their pain on that one! ;D To be fair though they did give him a chance to kick a ball for their club first and were fairly justified in their criticism. They've been transformed since the team has gained a new found confidence under Dalglish. Walters had desperate flack before he'd even signed.
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Post by Cupid Stunt on May 11, 2011 20:08:39 GMT
3 million for Jon fucking Walters? Why? What a load of bollocks! Youd think we'd learn wouldn't You! Bayern, you make me laugh ;D
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Post by bayernoatcake on May 11, 2011 20:10:41 GMT
And Lucas, I can feel their pain on that one! ;D To be fair though they did give him a chance to kick a ball for their club first and were fairly justified in their criticism. They've been transformed since the team has gained a new found confidence under Dalglish. Walters had desperate flack before he'd even signed. Unlike Konchesky! No worries Dom, I make myself laugh too! ;D
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Post by Deleted on May 11, 2011 20:53:39 GMT
For me Dean Whitehead is immense, if he was surrounded by lazy players like Scott Parker, people would appreciate the sheer amount of running he does (these types of players never really get the praise they deserve, a bit like Fletcher at manure) and we pretty much made our money back on Tuncay. As for Arismendi, well he's still young, and there's no saying we won't sell him to at least close to what we paid for him if we decide to get rid. I've said before that I don't think you can really count the signings from the first season, unless you would have really been happy with a load of youngsters on the bench. I'm not saying he hasn't made a mistake and that he is above criticism, but when you consider the team he took over in 2002 (or was it 2003??), I'd be really surprised if any other manager in the modern era has achieved what he has with the same or less expenditure. God knows why I'm going off on one here, it was just you said he was 'pretty dodgy' in the transfer market and I can't really see the logic in that statement. Its not like we've risen to these lofty heights off the back of our youth system or by blowing an absolute fortune (I'd be quietly confident Redknapp spent considerably more on wages/transfer fees with his similar success with Portsmouth). He does run a lot but he's never worth 5 million in a million years, he should score more goals and he should be better on the ball. He's also very inconsistent. If he eradicated those 3 things then maybe I would think he was worth close to his fee. Scott Parker, lazy-really? We lost a few million on Tunch, he was underused during his time and is a player that really doesn't suit a Tony Pulis team. I like Tunch but it was disastrous transfer. Arismendi is the pinnacle of pointless, disastrous transfers. If we can get close to what we paid for him then kudos to Tony Scholes because he's done nothing since he came here. Of course we can count the signing from the first season, if we can't then TP will be denied 4 of his best signings (Sorro, Faye, Ethers and Beattie). That is where TP works his magic I think. All relatively cheap, all out in the wilderness, all have done bloody marvelously for this club. I think we're in the top 4 for net spend in the past 3 years, which was needed to get where are we, he has spent a lot of money in a net sense. To be fair the Ipswich fan was spot on about what he'd bring to us. I wonder if some of those slating Walters even knew what the bloke looked like. A quick look at his stats on Wiki etc and judged him on that I did know what he looked Soi, just couldn't decide if he was black or white though, this confused me! ;D Well as long as you think we're in the top 4 spenders . I never said Scott Parker was lazy... if you actually read that I'm surprised you didn't stop reading there and then.
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Post by bayernoatcake on May 11, 2011 20:58:45 GMT
He does run a lot but he's never worth 5 million in a million years, he should score more goals and he should be better on the ball. He's also very inconsistent. If he eradicated those 3 things then maybe I would think he was worth close to his fee. Scott Parker, lazy-really? We lost a few million on Tunch, he was underused during his time and is a player that really doesn't suit a Tony Pulis team. I like Tunch but it was disastrous transfer. Arismendi is the pinnacle of pointless, disastrous transfers. If we can get close to what we paid for him then kudos to Tony Scholes because he's done nothing since he came here. Of course we can count the signing from the first season, if we can't then TP will be denied 4 of his best signings (Sorro, Faye, Ethers and Beattie). That is where TP works his magic I think. All relatively cheap, all out in the wilderness, all have done bloody marvelously for this club. I think we're in the top 4 for net spend in the past 3 years, which was needed to get where are we, he has spent a lot of money in a net sense. I did know what he looked Soi, just couldn't decide if he was black or white though, this confused me! ;D Well as long as you think we're in the top 4 spenders . I never said Scott Parker was lazy... if you actually read that I'm surprised you didn't stop reading there and then. Erm " if he was surrounded by lazy players like Scott Parker". And we are in the top 4 net spenders, it might even be top 3.
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Post by Deleted on May 11, 2011 21:09:39 GMT
Got cut off....
was also going to say Whitehead is worth 5 million of anybody's money. Easily capable of playing as a defensive minded midfielder for a mid-table Premier League team, as he has done for the last 4 years or so! If every player in the team cost £5 million, that would be an outlay of £55 million... I really doubt you're going to overtake the top 6 with that kind of outlay. (admitedly that is simplified, strikers are worth more etc etc)
As far as Tuncay is concerned, we bought him for £5 million and sold him for roughly £4 million, hardly the World's biggest loss, especially as he scored a few goals along the way. I'd almost consider him an expensive loan signing that didn't work out.
Arismendi cost £2.5 million and played the majority of Barnsley's games this season and is still relatively young... While I agree he will probably end up going down as a 'bad' signing we can't assume things (otherwise I could get my crystal ball out and say Kenwyne will score 20 goals next season for example).
Basically, my main point is simple, you can not call Tony Pulis 'fairly dodgy' in the transfer market. You've proven that yourself with the players you've listed! Throw in Huth, Begovic, Pennant, Walters and Wilson who are all relatively cheap (while Wilson 'cost' is stated by some to include Kitson and Lawrence, I see his transfer as a great way to get them off the wage bill) and I honestly can't think of another manager who has bought almost all his players for £5 million or less (with 2 exceptions) and has done so well.
As for the net spend, you're forgetting the £90 million (so far) in TV money Pulis' signings have raked in by getting promotion and staying in the league.
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Post by Deleted on May 11, 2011 21:10:24 GMT
surronded by lazy players like Scott Parker... as in Scott Parker has been surronded by lazy players all season!!
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Post by bayernoatcake on May 11, 2011 21:13:36 GMT
surronded by lazy players like Scott Parker... as in Scott Parker has been surronded by lazy players all season!! Why didn't You say that then! ;D It did look like You were calling Parker lazy with the way You had structured Your sentence! Got cut off.... was also going to say Whitehead is worth 5 million of anybody's money. Easily capable of playing as a defensive minded midfielder for a mid-table Premier League team, as he has done for the last 4 years or so! If every player in the team cost £5 million, that would be an outlay of £55 million... I really doubt you're going to overtake the top 6 with that kind of outlay. (admitedly that is simplified, strikers are worth more etc etc) As far as Tuncay is concerned, we bought him for £5 million and sold him for roughly £4 million, hardly the World's biggest loss, especially as he scored a few goals along the way. I'd almost consider him an expensive loan signing that didn't work out. Arismendi cost £2.5 million and played the majority of Barnsley's games this season and is still relatively young... While I agree he will probably end up going down as a 'bad' signing we can't assume things (otherwise I could get my crystal ball out and say Kenwyne will score 20 goals next season for example). Basically, my main point is simple, you can not call Tony Pulis 'fairly dodgy' in the transfer market. You've proven that yourself with the players you've listed! Throw in Huth, Begovic, Pennant, Walters and Wilson who are all relatively cheap (while Wilson 'cost' is stated by some to include Kitson and Lawrence, I see his transfer as a great way to get them off the wage bill) and I honestly can't think of another manager who has bought almost all his players for £5 million or less (with 2 exceptions) and has done so well. As for the net spend, you're forgetting the £90 million (so far) in TV money Pulis' signings have raked in by getting promotion and staying in the league. I don't think Whitehead is worth more than 2 million. He's a box to box midfielder who is inconsistent and doesn't score many goals. If he upped his consistency he'd be worth a bit more. But we spent 5 million on a player who is not better than Rory Delap. The monetry outlay is one factor on how to judge a transfer though. Tuncay was just a pointless signing as he just isn't a TP player. So buy him in the first place? He has played for Barnsley, very poorly by all accounts, same for Brighton. He may come good for us but it's not looking promising with all the facts we know. Pulis' rate is about 50/50 which is good. The dodgy bit comes in for some stinkers we've signed for big money (Tunch, Kitson, Whitehead imo) that's 15 million right there. We've spent 16.5 million and still not got a central midfielder in better than Delap. The money bought in by tv has nowt to do with net spend. Stokie1000-it is more like top 3! But we did need to do it.
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Post by french toast on May 11, 2011 21:13:49 GMT
top 4 net spenders?
doubt it
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Post by Deleted on May 11, 2011 21:22:01 GMT
I did... its not my fault you misread it!! More will appear soon? What, evidence that despite being 8th in the league and in a FA Cup final from a relegation battling outfit in the league below in 8 seasons, having no real youth policy to talk off, and hardly spending ridiculous amounts of money (nothing that has grabbed the national media's attention anyway) Tony Pulis is rubbish at signing players????
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Post by Deleted on May 11, 2011 21:27:24 GMT
I was going to write a point by point reply to your updated post..... but then you've just said his transfer policy is 'pretty good' which was my point anyway..... Why on earth would you say his transfer policy is dodgy, then decide its good later on? Anyway, now I've won this debate I can move on
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Post by bayernoatcake on May 11, 2011 21:38:00 GMT
Again that's just part of the policy! *bangs head* The bad parts are the money spent on not improving key areas, ignoring foreign markets for players, when we actually sign players and then moan they're not fit because we didn't sign them in time for pre-season, having at least 3 dead weight contracts of shite player hanging round our necks, signing players that would never get the chance anyway, not giving a damn about youth development and Dean Whitehead!
All reasons for why it's dodgy, not crap or anything like that, never said that, it's merely just dodgy and could be improved upon.
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Post by scfcbiancorossi on May 11, 2011 21:41:48 GMT
To be fair no one, and i mean absolutely no one (TP included) could have predicted what a revelation Walters has been. Probably player of the season along with Pennant.
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Post by bayernoatcake on May 11, 2011 21:42:44 GMT
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Post by Beloved Monkfish on May 11, 2011 21:51:06 GMT
TP is still imo pretty dodgy in the transfer marker, that I will argue the toss about! You truly are one of the worst posters on this board.
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Post by bayernoatcake on May 11, 2011 21:53:26 GMT
TP is still imo pretty dodgy in the transfer marker, that I will argue the toss about! You truly are one of the worst posters on this board. Cheers. £16.5 million spent on central midfielders that aren't better than Delap=dodgy surely? If it's not dodgy what the hell is it? ;D
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Post by boothy on May 11, 2011 21:56:21 GMT
TP is still imo pretty dodgy in the transfer marker, that I will argue the toss about! You truly are one of the worst posters on this board. I agree with him to a certain extent. If Pulis bought more players from abroad and gave some of the youth players a chance then he'd be a top manager. I would have had a word with him about it a long time ago if i was Coates.
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Post by Deleted on May 11, 2011 21:57:44 GMT
So is it dodgy or pretty good?
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Post by bayernoatcake on May 11, 2011 21:59:28 GMT
So is it dodgy or pretty good? Jesus wept, read my reply to You and the answer is there. And no one has mentioned Eidur Gudjohnsen yet, as I said-dodgy!
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Post by Beloved Monkfish on May 11, 2011 22:02:46 GMT
You truly are one of the worst posters on this board. Cheers. £16.5 million spent on central midfielders that aren't better than Delap=dodgy surely? If it's not dodgy what the hell is it? ;D C'mon though, you can't be serious? His better signings far FAR out-weigh his poor ones. There's been the odd few that haven't worked out, Tonge, Soares, Davies for example but we were struggling desperately at the time to get players in. It just so happens that our 'Championship' players really raised their game when we got promoted, so these signings didn't get a chance. Tuncay was good in flashes but granted didn't really fit in. Kitson turned out to be a bit of a dick. Whitehead has been a good solid player for us, uspectacular yes, but solid nevertheless. I'm afraid £5 million is the going rate for decent proven Premier League midfielders. And there aren't many sides outside of the top 4 who have these so called 'goalscoring central midfielders'. And there won't be one in a Pulis side because they want be given the license to get forward. And that's not a criticism. To say Pulis' record in the transfer market is 50/50 is quite frankly an insult. I think I've mentioned only a handfull of players there who haven't quite been good enough for the reasons explained. When you compare that to Sorensen, Huth, Faye, Beattie, Etherington, Pennant, Jones, Walters, Begovic, Wilson (these just players who he has signed since we went up), not to mention Shawcross, Fuller and to a certain extent Sidibe you're argument completely fails to stand up.
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Post by Deleted on May 11, 2011 22:07:00 GMT
'Pulis' rate is about 50/50 which is good' 'dodgy'
I don't know about you, but if I was describing something as dodgy I wouldn't say it was good.....
But then I am not prone to fits of manic depression.
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Post by johnsmithsupper on May 11, 2011 22:07:09 GMT
So is it dodgy or pretty good? Jesus wept, read my reply to You and the answer is there. I havent been on the board for a bit, why all the critisism of bayern? He is entitled to his opinion, a regular good poster, even if he is mostly wrong by his own admission He is right that some of the early purchases in the premiership have been a little dodgy, but others have been purely inspirational steals and they have more than made up for the poor decisions. Me and Bayern were banging our heads against the wall in disbelief in the last four windows about the right and left back positions not being adequately filled but wilko and wilson have eventuallty saved his bacon with their performances on that score. The team are playing with belief and freedom. It also appears the manager believes enough in them now to let them play but still somehow still keeping that defensive discipline. There is no doubt we are now more expansive all over the park however.
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Post by Deleted on May 11, 2011 22:08:06 GMT
Cheers. £16.5 million spent on central midfielders that aren't better than Delap=dodgy surely? If it's not dodgy what the hell is it? ;D C'mon though, you can't be serious? His better signings far FAR out-weigh his poor ones. There's been the odd few that haven't worked out, Tonge, Soares, Davies for example but we were struggling desperately at the time to get players in. It just so happens that our 'Championship' players really raised their game when we got promoted, so these signings didn't get a chance. Tuncay was good in flashes but granted didn't really fit in. Kitson turned out to be a bit of a dick. Whitehead has been a good solid player for us, uspectacular yes, but solid nevertheless. I'm afraid £5 million is the going rate for decent proven Premier League midfielders. And there aren't many sides outside of the top 4 who have these so called 'goalscoring central midfielders'. And there won't be one in a Pulis side because they want be given the license to get forward. And that's not a criticism. To say Pulis' record in the transfer market is 50/50 is quite frankly an insult. I think I've mentioned only a handfull of players there who haven't quite been good enough for the reasons explained. When you compare that to Sorensen, Huth, Faye, Beattie, Etherington, Pennant, Jones, Walters, Begovic, Wilson (these just players who he has signed since we went up), not to mention Shawcross, Fuller and to a certain extent Sidibe you're argument completely fails to stand up. None of those were signed from abroad though
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Post by march4 on May 11, 2011 22:10:51 GMT
Why the bickering??
Is it a sign we are getting nervous?
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Post by Deleted on May 11, 2011 22:11:33 GMT
Jesus wept, read my reply to You and the answer is there. I havent been on the board for a bit, why all the critisism of bayern? He is entitled to his opinion, a regular good poster, even if he is mostly wrong by his own admission He is right that some of the early purchases in the premiership have been a little dodgy, but others have been purely inspirational steals and they have more than made up for the poor decisions. Me and Bayern were banging our heads against the wall in disbelief in the last four windows about the right and left back positions not being adequately filled but wilko and wilson have eventuallty saved his bacon with their performances on that score. The team are playing with belief and freedom. It also appears the manager believes enough in them now to let them play but still somehow still keeping that defensive discipline. There is no doubt we are now more expansive all over the park however. I'm not criticising... I was just disagreeing that Pulis' transfer policy is 'dodgy'. As bayern said that his success with signings is 'good' he's obviously come around to the sane point of view...
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Post by french toast on May 11, 2011 22:13:38 GMT
bayern is one of the best posters on the main board.
i dont agree with him most of the time though ;D ;D
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Post by Deleted on May 11, 2011 22:13:40 GMT
Why the bickering?? Is it a sign we are getting nervous? Bickering? Surely the whole point of these boards is a bit of friendly debate, otherwise we'd just have 'What's your favourite oatcake?' and 'Ast thee lost your brown wings?' threads.
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Post by bayernoatcake on May 11, 2011 22:13:47 GMT
Cheers. £16.5 million spent on central midfielders that aren't better than Delap=dodgy surely? If it's not dodgy what the hell is it? ;D C'mon though, you can't be serious? His better signings far FAR out-weigh his poor ones. There's been the odd few that haven't worked out, Tonge, Soares, Davies for example but we were struggling desperately at the time to get players in. It just so happens that our 'Championship' players really raised their game when we got promoted, so these signings didn't get a chance. Tuncay was good in flashes but granted didn't really fit in. Kitson turned out to be a bit of a dick. Whitehead has been a good solid player for us, uspectacular yes, but solid nevertheless. I'm afraid £5 million is the going rate for decent proven Premier League midfielders. And there aren't many sides outside of the top 4 who have these so called 'goalscoring central midfielders'. And there won't be one in a Pulis side because they want be given the license to get forward. And that's not a criticism. To say Pulis' record in the transfer market is 50/50 is quite frankly an insult. I think I've mentioned only a handfull of players there who haven't quite been good enough for the reasons explained. When you compare that to Sorensen, Huth, Faye Beattie, Etherington, Pennant, Jones, Walters, Begovic, Wilson (these just players who he has signed since we went up), not to mention Shawcross, Fuller and to a certain extent Sidibe you're argument completely fails to stand up. I think it's 50/50 on that front but that is just one part of it, I think it's dodgy on other fronts described above. No You aren't going to get much better than Whitehead in the Premier League for 5 million, which is the exact reason we should look abroad. He's an inconsistent Premier League player that we paid a small fortune for. And no we won't get a goalscoring midfielder but Whitehead missed about 5 sitters last season and has missed about 3 this season. His goalscoring record for us is well below that with Sunderland too. As expected as You say but he has had chances. I also think on the whole in his time here TP has misused him as a holding player when he is a box to boxer but again that comes with the whole TP system that works a treat, so no problems there. Bad Seyi Collins Sonko Arismendi Davies Kitson Tuncay Gudjohnsen Tonge Whitehead Wilson Sorro Faye Faye Ethers Beattie Higgi Bego Huth KJ Walters Good That's how I'd rate them since we've been in the Premier League (in order bar Whitehead and Wilson). Wilson I'm very undecided on. Looks a top left back but disappointing in midfield, needs time. So maybe not 50/50 but close. But those good signings have been bloody good, there is no arguing that.
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