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Post by Paul Spencer on Nov 23, 2009 14:20:27 GMT
Uncs and Paul Given that we are 9th, and that we are winning games and generally do well in this tough league give you the slightest thought that you may be being a tad over critical on a number of our players? Johnno I want Delap in the middle and Lozza on the wing so you will have to do better than that. Good work on the continued abuse though. ;D Merk ... Would I play Huth instead of Wilko? No. Would I play Rory instead of Lenny to accommodate Whitehead in the middle? No. Would I play Collins instead of Higgy. Not as clear cut as the two above, but ultimately ... no. Indeed by far and away the best seen I've Stoke City play this season was against Sunderland. We looked like a team that was balanced, comfortable and composed that day. That team didn't include any of our summer signings and I still haven't heard a single argument expressed on here demonstrating (specifically) why the team we have been picking since then has looked any better.
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Post by mcf on Nov 23, 2009 14:59:16 GMT
I don't disagree Paul but we have still picked up plenty of good points doing it 'another' way.
I just don't see why we have all the hysterics when we are still picking up points.
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joll1
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Posts: 168
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Post by joll1 on Nov 23, 2009 15:10:00 GMT
A touch of controversy from me here maybe, but having been absolutely delighted when Tuncay had signed for us, I am now not quite so sure. Maybe I am coming around to TP's view. It is fairly obvious that Pulis see's him as a forward and on that basis, he is competing directly with Fuller. Tuncay is no Fuller, and never in a million years would I leave Fuller out in favour of Tunny. Tuncay will get his chance when Fuller is suspended and he has to take it with both hands, otherwise he will be departing in the near future I think. It is harsh to judge him on his cameo appearances to date, but he looks weak, lightweight, incapable of holding on to the ball and a little bit too fancy for his colleagues. On this basis, I don't think he can play in the HOLE for us, nor do I think he could do a job in midfield. He isn't quick enough to fill Etherington's role in the team, and he doesn't have the brain of Rory or Lawrence should he deployed on the right. To play him on either flank will effectively see us playing 3 up front, and we know TP will never do this. Like I say, it is harsh to judge him on his cameo appearances to date, but my concerns started at Pompey away in the cup, where he was woeful. Fingers crossed he will come good, but I am getting less optimistic of this every time I see him play. Boro built their side around him and they got relegated. We won't be doing the same! Tuncay will be sold back to Turkey (be it at the end of the season or even in January) and hopefully in returning to Turkey, we will at least get our money back on him...maybe even a small profit. I quite liked this and sort of agree! I think he has looked lightweight although to be fair 10 minutes here and there doesn't give him the time he needs to get into the game. Footballing brain of Delap?WTF thats the only bit that doesn't make sense ;D
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Post by Paul Spencer on Nov 23, 2009 15:13:11 GMT
I don't disagree Paul but we have still picked up plenty of good points doing it 'another' way. I just don't see why we have all the hysterics when we are still picking up points. I went to play poker last night and when I walked into the room everybody (not one of them a Stoke supporter) was taking the piss out of me ... "Honestly Paul if you carry on playing like that mate you won't be 9th for much longer." They are the sort of lads who know their football and if we'd lost a game when we'd played well they would definitely have said hey mate you've got nowt to worry about as well. Just a few neutrals' perspective fella. Honestly mate I think Stoke supporters would be extremely fickle if they didn't mention owt until we went on a bad run as well. Our actual league position doesn't mean a whole lot to me, well not until we're mathematically safe it doesn't. What I'm seeing out the park does mean a whole lot to me however. You know me I'm a big fan of keeping it tight and using the long ball tactic (there's no particular desire on my part to see more 'entertaining' football) and during his tenure here, most of the time I've been able to understand what Pulis is trying to do, but honestly mate right now at the moment I really can't 'see' it at all.
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Post by kidcrewbob on Nov 23, 2009 15:15:01 GMT
To propose that Tuncay be binned off in January as some sort of "mistake", besides being stupid, would be sheer negligence on Pulis's part. For him to have blown £5m + wages on a player who becomes all of a sudden surplus, or otherwise "doesn't fit" FOR THE SECOND SEASON RUNNING, means TPs judgement and prefessionalism as a manager is brought seriously into question.
Pulis could have / should have sat and watched tapes of all Tuncay's matches for Boro going back a couple of seasons & further - if he didn't, then he's negligent, if he did then he's guilty of making a poor decision.
Either way the buck stops with TP.
Christ on a bike - give the lad a chance........and a proper one at that........
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Post by gnosallpotter on Nov 23, 2009 15:19:18 GMT
I agree with a few bits of the first comment here, but to say he hasn't got the brain to play on the right?
He's the finest footballer at our club. Captain of a pretty good international team, and his record speaks for itself.
We can't continue to play Rory on the right, he showed in the last 25mins yesterday that he is (IMO) the best defensive midfielder we have.
Against a team as bad as pompey, Pulis SHOULD have stuck Fuller and Tuncay together, they are both great players and if we'd have played football yesterday (starting Lawrence on the right) we would have murdered them.
Tuncay will be off asap anyway, he doesn't look like he wants to be here anymore and i for one don't blame him one bit. He will go off to another club and make a huge impact. £5m wasted by poor management of a great talent.
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Post by mcf on Nov 23, 2009 15:23:28 GMT
Paul
I think everybody, as in manager, players and fans know that yesterday wasn't good enough.
I totally expect the relevant decisions to be made.
The main one is Lozza, the others I can live with.
If Lozza doesn't come back in then Pulis will deserve everything that comes his way if results go against him.
As long as we keep picking up points though, I'm happy to let it play out.
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Post by serpico on Nov 23, 2009 15:24:56 GMT
I think it's now pretty plain to see that Tuncay was more of a club signing than specifically one on TP's shopping list, i don't for one minute think he was a TP signing, just look at how TP treats all the other new signings, they're straight in the team, even when we have better players for those positions, he's prepared to break something that wasn't broke to fit them in, but not in Tuncays case, he's played a games worth of sub appearances, has been left out of the team even when we had two strikers out injured, he's been pushed down the pecking order by a unfit mama just back from 9 months out, he's been a subbed substitute 5 minutes after coming on in a game, ...... if it's not obvious that Pulis doesn't want him now, it never will be, he's clearly not been brought to the club by Pulis, at the very least maybe TP just agreed to it seen as all our other strike targets fell through.
Pulis won't play him with Fuller, therefore he has no future at this club, and neither do other players of similar ability, might as well just admit it, TP likes brick shit houses up front, he has no use for a player of Tuncays ability .
It's as clear as anything that TP is making sure he knows he doesn't have a long term future at the club, he's more or less forcing him to hand a transfer request in.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Nov 23, 2009 15:26:28 GMT
Paul I think everybody, as in manager, players and fans know that yesterday wasn't good enough. I totally expect the relevant decisions to be made. The main one is Lozza, the others I can live with. If Lozza doesn't come back in then Pulis will deserve everything that comes his way if results go against him. As long as we keep picking up points though, I'm happy to let it play out. I think that's fair enough mate.
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Post by kidcrewbob on Nov 23, 2009 15:37:43 GMT
It's as clear as anything that TP is making sure he knows he doesn't have a long term future at the club, he's more or less forcing him to hand a transfer request in. If this is the case then words fail me.......this is Pulis and Coates we're talking about here not Keegan and Mike feckin' Ashley........ I cannot believe that Tuncay is a "club" signing and was done with anything other than Pulis' full and unequivocal support, or indeed on his direct instruction....... If however it was, then Pulis should come out & say that this is what happened and do the honourable thing, ie "a Keegan" as clearly his position has become untenable.....
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Post by canary on Nov 23, 2009 15:45:51 GMT
Fingers crossed he will come good, but I am getting less optimistic of this every time I see him play. Boro built their side around him and they got relegated. We won't be doing the same! Tuncay will be sold back to Turkey (be it at the end of the season or even in January) and hopefully in returning to Turkey, we will at least get our money back on him...maybe even a small profit. Fenerbahce will never ever pay a single pound to buy him back because that will piss off the fans. fenerbahce didnt earn anything when he joined boro. still most of the fans are angry at him for having left like that. in this summer he also said that he'd come but he didn't so he is not very popular among fener fans right now. besiktas would love to buy him, though but i doubt that he'd join besiktas since he publicly told many times that he's a fener fan and he will never play for another turkish club. i have been watching his games since 2002 and i think he is far more talented than any other player in your team. i dont understand why you cant just use him as a winger. he scored many fantastic goals as a winger, and he also helps the defence. and he is an emotional player he has to feel that he is wanted and that the fans love him. he needs to be supported. then he will fight for your club. i think he's a great signing for your club and i hope he'll score many goals for you.
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Post by ipswichpotter on Nov 23, 2009 15:47:11 GMT
I find the Tuncay situation incredibly disappointed and rather sad. I was so excited when he signed; without doubt the most gifted footballer who has signed for Stoke in my lifetime.
I can guarantee he would have been given more opportunities or minutes on the pitch at Man City, Spurs, Villa, Liverpool; maybe even Chelsea, Arsenal and Man Utd.
Unfortunately Pulis’ rigid and rather stubborn approach to the game means we will never be able to incorporate such players into our ‘system’. I fear we may have missed the perfect opportunity to evolve in terms of the way we play and the calibre of players we can attract.
What must he be thinking when there’s a player in front of him on the wing for his long throw and a striker who comes on before him who has scored 39 goals in 281 games.
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Post by fromafar07 on Nov 23, 2009 15:59:05 GMT
A touch of controversy from me here maybe, but having been absolutely delighted when Tuncay had signed for us, I am now not quite so sure. Maybe I am coming around to TP's view. It is fairly obvious that Pulis see's him as a forward and on that basis, he is competing directly with Fuller. Tuncay is no Fuller, and never in a million years would I leave Fuller out in favour of Tunny. Tuncay will get his chance when Fuller is suspended and he has to take it with both hands, otherwise he will be departing in the near future I think. It is harsh to judge him on his cameo appearances to date, but he looks weak, lightweight, incapable of holding on to the ball and a little bit too fancy for his colleagues. On this basis, I don't think he can play in the HOLE for us, nor do I think he could do a job in midfield. He isn't quick enough to fill Etherington's role in the team, and he doesn't have the brain of Rory or Lawrence should he deployed on the right. To play him on either flank will effectively see us playing 3 up front, and we know TP will never do this. Like I say, it is harsh to judge him on his cameo appearances to date, but my concerns started at Pompey away in the cup, where he was woeful. Fingers crossed he will come good, but I am getting less optimistic of this every time I see him play. Boro built their side around him and they got relegated. We won't be doing the same! Tuncay will be sold back to Turkey (be it at the end of the season or even in January) and hopefully in returning to Turkey, we will at least get our money back on him...maybe even a small profit. ??? curious, i dont ever remember anyoen saying Tuncay IS teh answer. answer to what ?? he is player on a team that needs some skilled players, plain and simple, a compliment to Fuller, fuller a complment to him etc ! trouble is, he is managed by a man who is somewhat challenged when it comes to using skilled players ! 13 games in and TP still has no clue whatsoever how to use a skilled player, Lawrence and Whelan included. The shortage of goals for us comes from the total and complete lack of anyone remotely skilled being used in midfield. 80% of all balls that come forward for the strikers come from Sorro or the back 4, in the air ! when skill is used, like the brief moment in Snday's game, a goal came from it ! SO, no Tumcay isnt the answer, he was never the question, he is and should be 1 part of the whole puzzle !
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Post by davejohnno1 on Nov 23, 2009 16:21:02 GMT
At the moment, he isn't even 1 part of the puzzle though is he? Many thought he would be THE player to take us on to the next level, to help our playing style evolve but he isn't and hasn't been to date?
As for those questioning Rory's football brain...That is his greatest asset. He spots danger a mile off, fills in all the time for team mates who have left their natural positions and generally sweeps up all signs of danger. Whilst I would never advocate playing him wide, he even does this job from wide positions.
Hence my comment that he doesn't have Rory's brain. I am sure that Tunny is a wonderfully creative footballer but I can't imagine that spotting danger to his own team is one of his strengths.
From a wide position or centrally, Rory is fantastic at this, and Lenny is pretty good in terms of having a good defensive mind from a wide position. He obviously offers us so much more offensively than Rory to.
Hence I query whether Tunny could do a job in the wide positions for Stoke. When he arrived, I thought he would be playing up top with Fuller or possibly out wide in place of Ethers.
Fingers crossed his chance soon arrives and that he takes it with aplomb!
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Post by mcf on Nov 23, 2009 16:30:19 GMT
I'm with you Johnno
I think Rory is vastly under-rated as a centre midfielder.
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Post by dexter97 on Nov 23, 2009 16:33:59 GMT
One thing we can say based on his few short cameos is that Tunch is pretty lightweight, which is why he won't be considered for any position other than up top. Even the more creative / talented ball-players in our back eight can handle themselves in a scrap.
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Post by davejohnno1 on Nov 23, 2009 16:37:34 GMT
MCF...In a central position, I actually think that Rory is one of the best players at the club...certainly in the top 3 in terms of effectiveness.
It just baffles me that he isn't used in this position more often.
I am preaching to the converted with you I know, but it pisses me off when these idiots drone on about him only being in the team for his throw.
It may seem like that when he plays out wide, but you don't play the bulk of your career in the top flight (apart from two seasons, one of which was promotion with us) if you can only throw the ball a long way.
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Post by jimmygscfc on Nov 23, 2009 16:40:35 GMT
'I think Rory is vastly under-rated as a centre midfielder.'
And that's why we agree to disagree Neph. If only we had someone who was skilful and a physical presence........like you in your prime!
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Post by dexter97 on Nov 23, 2009 16:41:39 GMT
It may seem like that when he plays well, but you don't play the bulk of your career in the top flight (apart from two seasons, one of which was promotion with us) if you can only throw the ball a long way. Particularly when the RPGs weren't unearthed before he came here. Agree 100%. Rory's a quality central midfielder, and I regard it as being as big a crime to move him out of his natural position as it is to leave our best winger out of the side.
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Post by jimmygscfc on Nov 23, 2009 16:50:40 GMT
A moot point I know, but I regard Lawrence as a right-sided midfielder and not a winger, unlike Etherinton. Pedantic?
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wehatevale1
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Post by wehatevale1 on Nov 23, 2009 16:52:38 GMT
davejohnno1 I agree m8 rory is past it now theres plenty of good midfielders out there we could have , rory is just a throwing weapon atm
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Post by dexter97 on Nov 23, 2009 16:52:50 GMT
A moot point I know, but I regard Lawrence as a right-sided midfielder and not a winger, unlike Etherinton. Pedantic? Yes. Very. A man after my own heart! ;D (You spelt Etherington incorrectly)
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wehatevale1
Lads'n'Dads
Stick That In Your Pipe And Smoke It !
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Post by wehatevale1 on Nov 23, 2009 16:53:23 GMT
i agree m8 buh also i think hes gerrin past it *
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Post by roylandstoke on Nov 23, 2009 17:15:14 GMT
I am confused. It appears the original post is agreeing with and almost congratulating our manager for his assessment of Tuncay as a player who cannot do a job for our team. It seems that Tuncay does not have the same attributes as Ricardo Fuller.
Surely this was apparent to anyone who had ever seen the respective players play football before Tuncay was brought to the club.
Our rigid system dictates that only players of very similar types can be accommodated. This has been clear since the days of Ade and Gifton.
When we forked out for Kitson it was reasonable to imagine that as he shares similarities in physique with Mama he could have played that role. Beattie also has shown the height and strength to play the Mama role. Tuncay is a ball player, he invlves other players and thrives on close short passing movements. The Fuller role is all about power and pace and the ability to chase down flicks and long balls with no immediate support. Tuncay does not have these qualities as his main attributes.
If TP has no intention of adapting our style of play then surely it was a big mistake to have used up so much of our resources on buying Tuncay. TP bought Tuncay, was that a poor decision?
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Post by Davef on Nov 23, 2009 17:36:57 GMT
TP bought Tuncay, was that a poor decision? Well of course it was, and his comment about Tuncay not being able to play with Fuller beggars belief. What do you think Man Utd fans would have to say if Ferguson splashed £20M on a striker and announced that he couldn't play alongside Rooney? What do you think the reaction would be from Chelsea fans if Ancellotti bought a talented player, told everyone he couldn't play with Drogba and left him on the bench? It's an absolute farce.
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Post by itsmorethanagame on Nov 23, 2009 18:09:56 GMT
I agree with the first few comments of the original post and it is exactly what I was saying on my way home. Of course, it is very harsh to judge tunch on the few minutes he has had but he has looked a little lightweight.
I appreciate that he must be frustrated with a lack of opportunities but for me, Wilko and Lenny showed him yesterday the way it should be done. Wilko, was very unfortunate to be dropped for Huth but we haven't heard any reports of him moaning or such like. Instead, he has got his head down and when his chance came along yesterday he took it with both hands. He has now got to keep the shirt for next match.
Lenny also came on and did well and hopefully has played his way back into the starting line up for next week.
At the final whistle yesterday, I noticed Tuncay ran straight off the pitch and thought he should show a bit more appreciation to the fans who are supporting him so much. I watched the game back this afternoon on Sky+ and saw that Pulis ran over to him at the final whistle and was talking to him no doubt to praise him and build his confidence.
For me, Tuncay will sooner or later break into the team and stay there. Pulis HAS brought him to the club and you can be sure that Tuncay will get his chance at some point.
I just think that whilst I can understand his frustration, he needs to look at the examples other players are setting. At the moment he is competing with Fuller for that 1 position and Fuller is doing everything right. When he picks up a suspension Tunc will get his chance and he needs to make himself undroppable. Whether it be as a forward or being shifted to the wing.
The guy is picking up big money at Stoke, was signed from a championship club and I didn't see a host of other clubs banging the door down for his service. Lets not think he is bigger than the club. He will get his chance so needs to put his head down, work hard and get on with it in the meantime.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Nov 23, 2009 18:16:21 GMT
he needs to look at the examples other players are setting. At the moment he is competing with Fuller for that 1 position and Fuller is doing everything right. When he picks up a suspension Tunc will get his chance and he needs to make himself undroppable. What about the examples that the manager is setting to the other players in this regard however? It hardly worked for Wilko did it?
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Post by serpico on Nov 23, 2009 18:20:12 GMT
he needs to look at the examples other players are setting. At the moment he is competing with Fuller for that 1 position and Fuller is doing everything right. When he picks up a suspension Tunc will get his chance and he needs to make himself undroppable. What about the examples that the manager is setting to the other players in this regard however? It hardly worked for Wilko did it? Also that top striker role isn't Tuncays best position, if we just plonk him in there and play our normal game he'll get battered around left right and centre, to accommodate Tuncay we'd have to start playing an entire different game plan AKA a passing game . Would this be such a bad thing though ? as I said in another post, with whelan, Ethers and lenny in the team, i think we're capable of it .
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Post by Deleted on Nov 23, 2009 18:20:37 GMT
What would be his best position though Quim? I can't see how we could possibly accommodate his talents without leaving ourselves wide open to the fate that fell on Boro who built there team around him and got relegated. Maybe (subconsciously) I have become a rimmer all of a sudden. Play him just off Fuller, of course that would mean keeping the ball on the deck.
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Post by starkiller on Nov 23, 2009 18:21:34 GMT
A touch of controversy from me here maybe, but having been absolutely delighted when Tuncay had signed for us, I am now not quite so sure. Maybe I am coming around to TP's view. It is fairly obvious that Pulis see's him as a forward and on that basis, he is competing directly with Fuller. Tuncay is no Fuller, and never in a million years would I leave Fuller out in favour of Tunny. Tuncay will get his chance when Fuller is suspended and he has to take it with both hands, otherwise he will be departing in the near future I think. It is harsh to judge him on his cameo appearances to date, but he looks weak, lightweight, incapable of holding on to the ball and a little bit too fancy for his colleagues. On this basis, I don't think he can play in the HOLE for us, nor do I think he could do a job in midfield. He isn't quick enough to fill Etherington's role in the team, and he doesn't have the brain of Rory or Lawrence should he deployed on the right. To play him on either flank will effectively see us playing 3 up front, and we know TP will never do this. Like I say, it is harsh to judge him on his cameo appearances to date, but my concerns started at Pompey away in the cup, where he was woeful. Fingers crossed he will come good, but I am getting less optimistic of this every time I see him play. Boro built their side around him and they got relegated. We won't be doing the same! Tuncay will be sold back to Turkey (be it at the end of the season or even in January) and hopefully in returning to Turkey, we will at least get our money back on him...maybe even a small profit. So I take it that's a 'Pulis out' for wasting six million quid then?
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