Is there any daily papers fit for....

[Staying up for Grandadstokey]

Anything other than hanging behind the bog door? Sorry to post yet another post about so called journalists from the National press having a pop at us ,but an article I saw by Mick Dennis in yesterdays Express really takes the biscuit.

"Great players have specific skills named after them.We talk about the Cruyff turn or the Ronaldo step-over,for instance.On Sunday I watched an under 10s match,with 7 players on each side on a small pitch with small goals,so technique could be encouraged.But the away team had a lad who,from anywhere on the sideline could lob a throw- in into the area.The parents watching called that "a Rory".So Mr. Delap,you legacy is secure-and football is a little poorer.

I just cannot believe the sheer ignorance of the man.I have a 10 year old grandson,who does he choose as his role model? If he sees someone dive or feign injury that is a" Ronaldo".If he sees somene who makes the most of what talent they have (including the ability to throw a ball a great distance) who gives up part of his short summer break to raise thousands of pounds in a sponsored Trans-Pennine cycle ride for sick children, then surely if there were more Delaps football would be a lot richer.
Lazy journalism without an original observation will now be known as a "Dennis"

[bogus]

Mick Dennis, for reasons best known to himself, seems to loathe Stoke City, or maybe Pulis, with a passion.
I think it was our friend Mick who made the prediction that Stoke and Hull wouldn't have a point between them by Christmas......HA!
He's a Norwich* fan and I can only presume he once had a run in with a group of Stokies or something.
I'd email him the point in your last paragraph, grandad.

*Snigger - they're doing well at the minute

[A-teen_six_T3]

I think thats quality!

Well done Rory!

The thing is, if when I'm coaching, I saw a lad who can throw the ball into the box similar to Rory...Of course I would and I don't think there is any coach/manager who wouldn't

Even before Rory talent was showcased around the world.

[Davef]

Mick Dennis is probably still smarting from having his sorry backside kicked live on national TV by TP.

The bloke is a complete and utter cock.

(Dennis, not TP)

[daverichards]

the mans a cu.nt any one got an email for him

[SneydGreenStokie]

your good at personal insults arent you ledge

SGS

[Beardy200]

Nov 26, 2008 16:50:01 GMT A-teen_six_T3 said:

I think thats quality!

Well done Rory!

The thing is, if when I'm coaching, I saw a lad who can throw the ball into the box similar to Rory...Of course I would and I don't think there is any coach/manager who wouldn't

Even before Rory talent was showcased around the world.

Sorry to disagree but that's 'possibly' what's wrong with our football in this country. At 7 and 8 years old we shouldn't be teaching "fuck the skill, win at all costs" we should be teaching ball skills, passing and moving. The premier league is so unbalanced towards the rich clubs it's understandable but for kids that's just not good enough. If you're so desperate to win an under 10s football match then fine but if you want to develop kids into better players for the future then if you were a coach i'd be taking my kids to play somewhere else.

[njkk]

They stopped wrapping chips in newspaper around the same time as Mick Dennis and his ilk appeared on the so called sports journalism scene, they found it was making the chips taste bitter and the fish were ashamed to be associated with them

[birly]

Trumpton,Surely you must already know how to kick a ball at age ten.If one one the kids as a long throw in his armoury,why not utilise it?Im sure there isnt a team of 10 yr olds who only know how to throw a ball far yet cant kick it!They wouldnt get in a side in the first place!

[Beardy200]

Nov 26, 2008 23:37:29 GMT birly said:

Trumpton,Surely you must already know how to kick a ball at age ten.If one one the kids as a long throw in his armoury,why not utilise it?Im sure there isnt a team of 10 yr olds who only know how to throw a ball far yet cant kick it!They wouldnt get in a side in the first place!

What an easy world you must live in where everything is so black and white as that tosh. So once a 10 yr old can kick a ball there is no need to practice it anymore? Having a long throw is a great weapon to have in your armoury but all it's teaching the rest of the team is how to jump in the box. If it's used in the last 5 minutes or so when losing or drawing then fine but to encourage kids at that age to do it all through the game is just shocking. God help us all if that's the view of the modern day kids coach.

Next you'll be telling me schools should say "there's a calculator there why bother to try and work it out properly".

[birly]

Can you tell me where I say not to practice anymore?All Im saying is you need some skill with the ball at your feet anyway to get into a team.If one...yes one of the kids has this weapon,let him use it.Its all part of the game.
Youre making out that I said that young kids should be taught just to throw a ball when obviously I didnt.
But hey if it suits your argument.

[Beardy200]

Come on now try and at least see my point even if you don't agree with it. The more time spent piling the big lads into the box and hurling the ball in is less time spent 'playing football'. Plus then i assume more time would be spent in training perfecting the skill aswell. And for why .... because we 'must win'. Heaven fordid the odd game slips by when your 10 years old so you are spending more time perfecting your control, your passing and your shooting. Before you know it the team would be full of the tallest but not necessarily the best players available just to utilise it more. I just don't understand how parents' desire to win at that age is so great that other more important 'coaching' is diluted.

[bayernoatcake]

Lets not beat about the bush Mick Dennis is cunt. He is a referee too which makes him an uber cunt added to his journalism cuntness.

[birly]

In any age of the game,If an opportunity to score comes along,dont the players have to at least try to take it?im not saying dont coach the skills the most but kids must need to know tactics as well,even at a young age and a long throw in is one of many tactics that can be utilised.

[bayernoatcake]

Doing a long throw doesn't lessen the skill. The lad won't go "ooooh I'll go practise my long throw", they'll do that on top of it. I don't see the problem. I watched an under-11/12's game and the team my Cousins play in have a lad that can launch it, so they do. But they also have the best kid I've seen play at that age. If he isn't on Stokes books he bloody ought to be. He had pace and directness down the line and his crossing was superb. What I was majorly impressed by the whole team was that when they got the ball they looked up immediately for a pass. There were a few lads that looked bloody good players for both teams and I was impressed.

[Beardy200]

Do you also think then if you have a team of 11 kids, who as a coach you are supposed to be developing, a keeper who can kick it a mile and a freakish 6 foot 10 yr old, then the hoof up the pitch is the best 'tactic' to use all the time as it's the 'most effective' all the time?
I've seen this done at loads of kids games and as 'players' the skill levels will always develop much slower as they're not practicing the important things about football as much as they could/should be. We have regimented matches with the must win syndrome drilled into them, if in doubt kick it out etc. Surely it's no surprise that the poorer countries where kids just go out and play without the fear of losing hanging over them produce more 'skillful' players than we do.

Some people just need a little plastic trophy just a little bit too much in my eyes that's all.

[bayernoatcake]

That is true Trumpton but at the end of the day they won't foresake the skill to do that I don't think. I've seen teams do that just because that's all they had, they can't help that. The problem for me with English players is not at this early stage but at how many aren't good enough from under-21 level to full international-that is the problem imo and that for me is down to lack of opportunities in the top league for them. Our youth teams are as good as most in the world.

[Beardy200]

You might be right bayern. Thing is for me the long throw is just the tip of the iceberg for me as far as kids are concerned. I mean you say you've seen kids play the long ball as that's all they have, but i'd argue that's all they'll ever have if they don't try and play and if i had a pound for every time i've heard 'if in doubt kick it out' to 8 and 9 year olds i'd be on the lash this weekend at the very least. What exactly is that going to teach anyone. At that age if you're 'certain' then maybe kick it out but if in'doubt' then try and play out would be my preference. This will teach, shielding the ball, keeping calm under pressure etc etc. The alternative, it sounds like, will just result in the big lads all jumping together on the penalty spot ... quality. Yes we'll produce the odd skillful player but to have the strength in depth you need as a footballing nation we need to widen our net and for that we need to think more about developing kids and less about tactics and winning. Tactics can be taught later and winning will come if you put the right practice in.

[bayernoatcake]

Teaching John Terry that saying wouldn't have cost England a goal! When I was younger I was a centre back and got told that and just used to hoof it at every opportunity. This was down to me being crap admittedley. The saying is more about playing safe than messing about, as the Terry-Carson situated proved. Its all about judgement when to boot it and when to play it. I was never good enough to make this judgement. However, from the good players I've seen they are and don't just hoof it. If I played 11 a side nowadays I'd be a ball playing centre half. When I was younger I couldn't pass but actually practising and caring a bit now I can.

But the competiveness is a problem. I'm a hypocrite for what I'm about to say but its what happened. When I was younger I was a decent keeper and had the chance to be first team keeper when I was about 9/10. But I didn't want to be because I knew if I made a mistake I'd be bollocked and I just wanted to have fun. Hence my move to centre back, being shit and passing a ball a lot on the sidelines ;D However, when I used to watch my Brother I was a cunt I took it so serious and would shout and scream like I was down Stoke. Too many do this.

For me kids when playing need a bit of freedom and enjoyment from playing. My Cousins' team had a healthy mix of determination to win and enjoyment and I was really impressed by the players on show from both sides. If I was in that environment when I was younger maybe I'd be playing 11 a side now. Instead I quit when I was 12/13 because I wasn't good enough and couldn't stick it.

[A-teen_six_T3]

This has turned into a very good debate..Glad I started it

Seriously though, I'm all for developing players and giving them the skill and ability of someone like Chritiano Ronaldo. But for the majority of players it will never happen however much they practice and we play on small pitches. IMO the quality players are born with the ability to perfect techniques and skills, and the average players like you and I are not.

I'm not syaing that we should desgard skills and quick passing and movement at all...But if there was someone who was able to throw the ball 20 yards, why not use it.
It's the same as if you got some one who has got a good a free kick you will use him to take free kicks.

I've taken part in and wathced many training sessions as a coach and the best sessions are ones where you play in small areas and encourage the kids to move the ball about. But in a game situation it's not like that... It's not as...Can't think of the word..But each opposition player is different and have different mind sets, so you have to play to how the game is going.

It's all well and good passing the ball about and going nowhere el la West Brom, but a big part of football is winning. We can all say it's about tkaing part, but if a team of 10 year olds are getting thumped 10 nil every week, The likely hood of them enjoying it is pretty slim. I've seen this from my time refereeing mini soccer and lads and dads matches. If you got a person who can lump the ball to a tall striker who will score goals and punish the defence theres no point in saying well, we wont do it because we want create good players for England. blah blah Thats Mowbries take on things. Like TP always says you play to your strengths....whilst trying to develop players

[Staying up for Grandadstokey]

See what youv'e done Dennis turned a perfectly respectable fans forum into a bloody junior coaching session!!

[stayingupfor GermanStokie]

Nov 26, 2008 20:17:21 GMT SneydGreenStokie said:

your good at personal insults arent you ledge

SGS

SGS,
You seem to have a persoanl aganda against ID! Everytime you are on it seems to be a dig at him... even if it is a tenuous link to the thread. It also seems that you are actually better at personal insults as they are much more subtle......

[JoeinOz]

IMHO this article covers many issues related to kids football development.

www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/columnists/martin_samuel/article2910642.ece

[beardofzeus]

Fuck it, in football there are times for stepovers and fancy flicks and there is a time for no nonsense football. We're in a battle for Prem survival and we use the tools we have. It doesn't have to be pretty as long as it is effective...

[Davef]

The point Dennis is trying to make though is that kids are using Rory Delap as a role model because they can throw the ball far.

So bleeding what? A long throw is neither against the rules, nor is it likely to limit a child's overall football skill.

I'd hazard a guess that there are far more children in this country who use Ronaldo, Rooney, Gerrard and even the likes of David Bentley as a role model before they use Rory Delap.

I'd be interested to know if Dennis has made any reference to the histrionics, diving, and general twattishness of some of these players and the likely effect it has on influencing youngsters in his column.

Why bother though, when there are easy targets like Stoke City and Rory Delap to aim at?

[stayingupfor GermanStokie]

I think the problem is down to one major thing in the Uk and that is investment and finance. I was a keeper/player (of a good standard) when i was a lot younger and was brought up through the German football leagues. Even the smallest teams had the facilities to train in a professional environment, including a seperate training/football pitch, decent changing rooms, training equipmeny by the local league and strong links with your local professional teams. I frequently trained with BVB junior teams, although I never committed as much as i should, but all my friends were the same. The infrastructure is much more defined and the financial arm is greater at the grass roots level. The English game is improving on this side, however if was not for the many volunteers who are generally out of pocket to train and coach youngsters around the UK there would be NO grass roots.
I was also a coach in the German system (FA level 2 now) and the support mechanism is immense compared to here. You have frequent meetings with the local League president (for your age group), face-to-face to update you on policy and changes and also for refresher training to share ideas and new training philosophies.
As a coach I ensured that training was mainly based on the development of skills, directly for the positions the indidviduals were in (forwards, midfielders, defence and keeper) before integrating tactical awareness (pass and move, through/long ball) with everyone and then culminating in a mini game for fun at the end. Unfortunately when it comes to the game, you can teach what you like but, especially the younger players (5+) there is a natural inclination for them all to follow the ball around like flies to poo and all training ideals disappear... but you do see an increase in their skill level. It is only as they get older (12+) are you able to see any tactical awareness develop from the training ground to the match environment...

[A-teen_six_T3]

Good points there GS,

I spent summer 07, and am spending summer 09 (didn't want spend summer 08 cus' of missing first few matches of prem season ) in america coaching kids from 3 up to 18 'soccer' the stadard of players that I was working with wasn't all that goo, so it was the basic coaching drills how to kick a ball, how to pass etc for a lot of the time. On the few occasions i worked with established teams. SO you try and sort out tactics, passing in triangles, overlaps, man marking etc. But even then very few players understood the concept of putting the training into a game situation. I think only the better players can do that...Other than that they will be all like you saying chasing the ball and running around like headless chickens. More often than not goals will come from set plays, or mistakes from the opposition, it's very rare that a goal would come from a player doing for step overs a maradona turn then slot in top corner...

[knowles]

I don't think it has been mentioned anywhere but apologies if it has....

I was talking to a chap who manages a side from Stafford and, up to the age of ten, he has been told that a score will not be kept. In other words, the kids are playing merely for pleasure- not to win.

What sort of mentality is that? Surely the whole point of football is to try and win the game? I know we need to train these kids up to a good level but surely if there isn't a scoreline they aren't going to push themselves to their optimum level?

Apparantly it's Brooking's bright idea...

[lordb]

up to the age of 10 kids should play for fun & fun only imho.

dont see anything wrong with some kid aping Rorys throw though.

long throws into the area are entertaining.

anyone who is teaching kids to dive & kick opponents on the other hand...

[pea_tear_griffin]

Next time you're with a prostitute ask her for a "Mick Dennis". She'll know what you mean. Not sure it's worth the extra tenner though.