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Post by Waggy on Sept 27, 2024 8:58:57 GMT
I’ve had a deep conversation with a friend named Trevor about the league table, he says it lies but I say the league table never lies.
Any thoughts?
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Post by thehartshillbadger on Sept 27, 2024 9:03:49 GMT
I’ve had a deep conversation with a friend named Trevor about the league table, he says it lies but I say the league table never lies. Any thoughts? The league table never lies, your friend Trevor clearly does👀 |
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Post by thornestein on Sept 27, 2024 9:10:34 GMT
I’ve had a deep conversation with a friend named Trevor about the league table, he says it lies but I say the league table never lies. Any thoughts? how can it lie , you are where you deserve to be |
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Post by Waggy on Sept 27, 2024 9:14:37 GMT
I’ve had a deep conversation with a friend named Trevor about the league table, he says it lies but I say the league table never lies. Any thoughts? how can it lie , you are where you deserve to be I said that but Trevor says “ prove it” not sure how I can. |
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Post by J-Roar on Sept 27, 2024 9:17:11 GMT
how can it lie , you are where you deserve to be I said that but Trevor says “ prove it” not sure how I can. Take a photo of it because the camera never lies. |
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Post by thornestein on Sept 27, 2024 9:19:06 GMT
how can it lie , you are where you deserve to be I said that but Trevor says “ prove it” not sure how I can. don’t the results prove it 🤷♂️ |
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Post by stokiejoe on Sept 27, 2024 9:29:11 GMT
Football is a results game, the table merely displays those results against the results of other teams and is factual not based on emotion. How those results are achieved is quickly forgotten.
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Post by marylandstoke on Sept 27, 2024 9:34:46 GMT
Football is a results game, the table merely displays those results against the results of other teams and is factual not based on emotion. How those results are achieved is quickly forgotten. They don’t ask how. They ask how many. |
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Post by stokeson on Sept 27, 2024 9:43:16 GMT
I said that but Trevor says “ prove it” not sure how I can. Take a photo of it because the camera never lies. Uless its a " deep fake ". |
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Post by pavel on Sept 27, 2024 10:03:11 GMT
I said that but Trevor says “ prove it” not sure how I can. Take a photo of it because the camera never lies. ah but it does almost always. |
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Post by Northy on Sept 27, 2024 10:47:22 GMT
It doesn't have a brain or conscious, so how can it think or lie?
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Post by alexanderinstone on Sept 27, 2024 10:47:54 GMT
The league table never lies after 46 games. It can give a false impression over a few games
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Post by nottsover60 on Sept 27, 2024 11:00:29 GMT
At this stage in the season I would say the table can be deceptive. For example we lost every equivalent game last season of five of our matches this season so far and of course didn't play Oxford although it could be said that they replaced Rotherham who we beat away.
The table doesn't lis though. It shows how teams have fared up to this point and the more matches that are played the more accurate a picture it gives of the overall competitiveness of the teams.
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Post by iglugluk on Sept 27, 2024 11:13:33 GMT
The league table never lies after 46 games. It can give a false impression over a few games This |
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Post by Tom_stokiepmre89 on Sept 27, 2024 11:18:05 GMT
I take the phrase “the table never lies” to mean something along the lines of “at the end of a football season, every team will finish exactly where they deserve to finish based on their longterm performances relative to their competition”.
With this in mind, I firmly believe “the table never lies” is one of the most inaccurate cliche’s within the footballing world.
A 38/46 game season is not a big sample. It’s easily small enough for some complete freakshow deviations between expectation, performance and result. There’s a ridiculous amount of variance in football.
The table DEFINITELY lies.
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Post by marylandstoke on Sept 27, 2024 11:20:05 GMT
Cardiff dislike this thread.
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Post by kustokie on Sept 27, 2024 11:23:43 GMT
The league reflects how poorly we have played so far. Early days but the signs are already there that we’re more likely to be in a relegation battle rather than chasing the playoffs.
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Post by nottsover60 on Sept 27, 2024 11:28:27 GMT
The league reflects how poorly we have played so far. Early days but the signs are already there that we’re more likely to be in a relegation battle rather than chasing the playoffs. Except that as I said above our points haul from the equivalent matches last season was zero. We did get three points away to Rotherham who you would probably say were replaced by Oxford so we are three points net better off than last season. |
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Post by nottsover60 on Sept 27, 2024 11:30:16 GMT
I take the phrase “the table never lies” to mean something along the lines of “at the end of a football season, every team will finish exactly where they deserve to finish based on their longterm performances relative to their competition”. With this in mind, I firmly believe “the table never lies” is one of the most inaccurate cliche’s within the footballing world. A 38/46 game season is not a big sample. It’s easily small enough for some complete freakshow deviations between expectation, performance and result. There’s a ridiculous amount of variance in football. The table DEFINITELY lies. Yes I often think at the end of the season that if it went on without a break it would look different after another 46 games. Sometimes teams have a winning streak of games when you are unlucky to face them or a star player misses 6 games and they look like a totally different team. The Championship is such a close division that 46 games is a fairly random sample. For example if you were very unlucky to lose a match, perhaps on a refereeing decision to a team who finish 4 points ahead of you at the end of the season they could finish in the playoffs while you are mid table. Yet if the luck hadn't gone with you instead it would be positions reversed. I know it evens out over the season but it surprises me how many 6pointer games there are in a Championship season. I remember the year they were promoted we were beating beat Forest with 5 minutes to go against ten men Forest having had their gk sent off. A win which I think would have put us six points ahead of them. Instead they scored two late goals and drew level with us and went from strength to strength for the rest of the season. |
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Post by pavel on Sept 27, 2024 11:52:34 GMT
It doesn't have a brain or conscious, so how can it think or lie? Of course a camera can lie, the photographer chooses the viewpoint, when to press the shutter, what’s in and out, who’s in or out, the angle, perspective, exposure, timing etc. There are many famous images in photography that look to show one thing but really show something entirely different and that’s before post processing manipulation which can be undetectable to the untrained eye. The camera itself cannot lie itself of course but in tandem with the photographer it is an entirely different matter. |
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Post by PotterLog on Sept 27, 2024 11:55:37 GMT
I take the phrase “the table never lies” to mean something along the lines of “at the end of a football season, every team will finish exactly where they deserve to finish based on their longterm performances relative to their competition”. With this in mind, I firmly believe “the table never lies” is one of the most inaccurate cliche’s within the footballing world. A 38/46 game season is not a big sample. It’s easily small enough for some complete freakshow deviations between expectation, performance and result. There’s a ridiculous amount of variance in football. The table DEFINITELY lies. Is the correct answer. Teams can and do get lucky or unlucky and end up in a “false” position over one season. Over five or six, less so |
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Post by CBUFAWKIPWH on Sept 27, 2024 12:39:37 GMT
I take the phrase “the table never lies” to mean something along the lines of “at the end of a football season, every team will finish exactly where they deserve to finish based on their longterm performances relative to their competition”. With this in mind, I firmly believe “the table never lies” is one of the most inaccurate cliche’s within the footballing world. A 38/46 game season is not a big sample. It’s easily small enough for some complete freakshow deviations between expectation, performance and result. There’s a ridiculous amount of variance in football. The table DEFINITELY lies. Is the correct answer. Teams can and do get lucky or unlucky and end up in a “false” position over one season. Over five or six, less so It depends on what you think the league table is actually saying. If you think it is saying that the points 100% reflect the ability and and performance of each and every team in the league then yes it is lying. However it isn't saying that. It is saying this is how the teams lie in terms of the results they acheived through the season. And in those terms it does not lie and at the end of the day it's the only thing that matters. Personally I think that's how it should be - introduce marks for artistic merit and it is no longer a proper sport. |
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Post by Eggybread on Sept 27, 2024 12:41:03 GMT
I’ve had a deep conversation with a friend named Trevor about the league table, he says it lies but I say the league table never lies. Any thoughts? Depends on the context and when the question was asked |
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Post by onionman on Sept 27, 2024 12:43:34 GMT
I once met a league table in a bar and it told me it was an airline pilot and wasn’t married and that Stoke were 17th. Make of that what you will.
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Post by emmbrook1956 on Sept 27, 2024 13:13:37 GMT
Waggy,
I hope you and Trevor are keeping well! Are you still driving?
I hope the league table lies! I am nervous about the match tomorrow but just hope somebody in the club knows what they are doing!
Best wishes
CR
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Post by stokeson on Sept 27, 2024 13:40:38 GMT
I once met a league table in a bar and it told me it was an airline pilot and wasn’t married and that Stoke were 17th. Make of that what you will. Ketamine can do that to you........ |
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Post by Tom_stokiepmre89 on Sept 27, 2024 13:43:40 GMT
Is the correct answer. Teams can and do get lucky or unlucky and end up in a “false” position over one season. Over five or six, less so It depends on what you think the league table is actually saying. If you think it is saying that the points 100% reflect the ability and and performance of each and every team in the league then yes it is lying. However it isn't saying that. It is saying this is how the teams lie in terms of the results they acheived through the season. And in those terms it does not lie and at the end of the day it's the only thing that matters. Personally I think that's how it should be - introduce marks for artistic merit and it is no longer a proper sport. I agree that the definition of "the table never lies" is the crux of the debate here. If it's taken to mean the literal example from your second sentence then there is no debate; because it becomes like saying "the calculator never lies". Realistically though I don't think many people who use/believe in this cliche' are using it in this way. They're using it as a metaphor for "at the end of a season, teams will finish exactly where they deserve to based on process relative to their competition". And this is where I think there is a fundamental, deep-rooted lack of understanding (amongst supporters especially) as to just how extreme variance is in football, and how small a sample a single season actually is. This is why it's so common these days to hear coaches talk about things like "process orientated approach" "control the controllables" etc. It might sound like mumbo-jumbo jargon, but it is important. It's their way of acknowledging that, in sport, you can do everything perfectly within your control and still suffer poor results in the short to medium term. So switching focus to the process instead of results is the optimal mentality for performance. Don't get too high after wins or too low after losses etc. Just stay focused on what you can control. It's against human intuition to see things this way but I think it would be helpful for the state of this forum if more people could get their heads around this stuff. You only have to look at the difference in tone on this forum when we've won narrowly or lost narrowly (in games that could've easily had opposing results) to see how incredibly fickle the emotions of football supporters are. Having said all this though, I'm definitely not implying that we should find an alternative way of measuring results that is more based on process. That would be the end of football. I'm just saying there is way more variance in the game than most people (including myself) can even begin to imagine. |
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Post by PotterLog on Sept 27, 2024 13:43:49 GMT
Is the correct answer. Teams can and do get lucky or unlucky and end up in a “false” position over one season. Over five or six, less so It depends on what you think the league table is actually saying. If you think it is saying that the points 100% reflect the ability and and performance of each and every team in the league then yes it is lying. However it isn't saying that. It is saying this is how the teams lie in terms of the results they acheived through the season. And in those terms it does not lie and at the end of the day it's the only thing that matters. Personally I think that's how it should be - introduce marks for artistic merit and it is no longer a proper sport. Well yeah I don't think the sense of the saying is that the authorities are publishing fraudulent league tables showing incorrect points totals  |
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Post by CBUFAWKIPWH on Sept 27, 2024 14:00:28 GMT
It depends on what you think the league table is actually saying. If you think it is saying that the points 100% reflect the ability and and performance of each and every team in the league then yes it is lying. However it isn't saying that. It is saying this is how the teams lie in terms of the results they acheived through the season. And in those terms it does not lie and at the end of the day it's the only thing that matters. Personally I think that's how it should be - introduce marks for artistic merit and it is no longer a proper sport. I agree that the definition of "the table never lies" is the crux of the debate here. If it's taken to mean the literal example from your second sentence then there is no debate; because it becomes like saying "the calculator never lies". Realistically though I don't think many people who use/believe in this cliche' are using it in this way. They're using it as a metaphor for "at the end of a season, teams will finish exactly where they deserve to based on process relative to their competition". And this is where I think there is a fundamental, deep-rooted lack of understanding (amongst supporters especially) as to just how extreme variance is in football, and how small a sample a single season actually is. This is why it's so common these days to hear coaches talk about things like "process orientated approach" "control the controllables" etc. It might sound like mumbo-jumbo jargon, but it is important. It's their way of acknowledging that, in sport, you can do everything perfectly within your control and still suffer poor results in the short to medium term. So switching focus to the process instead of results is the optimal mentality for performance. Don't get too high after wins or too low after losses etc. Just stay focused on what you can control. It's against human intuition to see things this way but I think it would be helpful for the state of this forum if more people could get their heads around this stuff. You only have to look at the difference in tone on this forum when we've won narrowly or lost narrowly (in games that could've easily had opposing results) to see how incredibly fickle the emotions of football supporters are. Having said all this though, I'm definitely not implying that we should find an alternative way of measuring results that is more based on process. That would be the end of football. I'm just saying there is way more variance in the game than most people (including myself) can even begin to imagine. Well put. |
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Post by retrostoke on Sept 27, 2024 14:01:57 GMT
It doesn’t always reflect current form so yes it can be deceiving
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