seths
Lads'n'Dads
Posts: 68
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Post by seths on Sept 18, 2024 10:39:53 GMT
Or a manager who has come into a basket case club and steadied the ship. Played some of the best front foot football we've seen in years. Blooding young talent. Has good support from most of its fan base. Is only 5 games into the season. 15 points in 8 games (auto promotion form that) Of course there's been some shit performances. How wouldn't there be when your clearing up a mess and simultaneously trying to build a young side. So what happens when Pelach loses 3 or 4 in 6 or 7? You've set a standard now John. Surely he needs sacking doesn't he John. Shit optics, badly managed by little Johnny Walters. And so the general consensus will continue that stoke are all the gear and no fucking idea. Billy smarts circus.... This is sort of the point that underpins everything, isn’t it? We’ve all got our biases, whether conscious or unconscious - what we like, what we want to see - and as things play out we probably interpret things to either fit or go against what we think is the right way of doing things. There’ll be people who didn’t rate Schumacher, and those who did and thought he had it in him to succeed. I’m in the latter and seems like you are too. SJW and some others on the message board were in the former. We probably see and highlight different things in games which either encourage or alarm depending on the stance we’ve taken. On reflection, while at the time I was buzzing about the results and performances at the very end of last season someone else, such as someone who has had the thought for months that Schumacher’s the wrong man and now has the authority to swing a big axe, might see it as a worry that we didn’t pick that level up this season and why it took the jeopardy we were in last season to get that out of the side. Neither are views are innately wrong, just that we probably offer greater value to the view which conforms to our perspective. Ultimately, if Walters has wanted to make the change since he was appointed either in the Interim or Permanent role, it probably comes to the point where it’s best for everyone to call it time and let everyone go in a different direction. It’s a ballsy move, but even if you have the best people appointed, if they aren’t on the same page and are always at each other’s throats it’s not going to work. And I don’t really buy the yes man argument. Ultimately, if I don’t work to the strategy my boss lays out he’s going to be pissed off and want to know why. Equally, Schumacher was within his right to be pissed off if one of the players was doing stuff that went against what he was asking him to do - he’d drop them, send them to Blackburn, or whatever and that’s perfectly fine. This really sums up the whole situation. Schumacher was doing ok but on the other hand there have been some woeful performances. Walters was brought in after Schumacher as sporting director and is effectively Schumacher's boss. If the two don't see eye to eye on the way forward then it is probably best to part ways rather than drag this out for another few months (like we did with Alex Neil). It's a brave move from Walters, If it goes wrong then he's toast. Fan's have been asking the club to widen the net of potential managers beyond British managers for years - though I'm not sure this is what they had in mind! |
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Post by coldtuesdaynight on Sept 18, 2024 10:44:49 GMT
How do we know that? At the end of the day the results haven’t been there, bar one spell towards the end of last season. People are projecting reasons outside the result onto this decision, but if we were all sat confident of a top half finish after the first 5 games Schumacher would still be here. Signs were there this season that worried me before the Oxford game: Schumacher talking about a tough start despite it being actually quite nice fixture-wise, getting thrashed at Watford, playing a formation the fans hate and we don’t have the players for a week later etc. Sure I’d have let the couple of wins before the break convince me to not sack him if it was my choice, but it’s hardly a massive surprise he’s gone surely? If we’d lost against Hull then it’d fast be getting to the point where we would be shocked if he was there the next game. We know that because no sensible club sacks their head coach in September Someone has already mentioned the Forest example, but there will be plenty more. I mean, Bournemouth sacked promotion winning Parker in August a couple of years ago and stayed up against the odds. Have we had one impressive league game in the first 5? I liked the first half against Coventry, but was pretty surprised when we won it given how the second half was going. Even against Plymouth we only had 2 shots on target. I’m pretty sure Sheffield United regret waiting until December last year for example, and we very nearly had the same regret ourselves! Sometimes you have to act when the signs are there, and I imagine they’ve watched him a lot closer and seen a lot more worrying stuff than the few things I’ve managed to spot without really trying! (I was all for the appointment, so I was probably quite biased and ignoring the flaws tbh. I pretty much ignored all the criticism of inverted full backs for example) |
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Post by stokief on Sept 18, 2024 10:45:49 GMT
There's an outpouring of emotion on here as though someone had passed away. The anger and the vitriol towards Walters in some places is quite odd. He's turned into our own 'Mr Evil' for doing his job. People who don't know him are now seeing him as a raging ego-maniac rampaging through the Club! Calm down folks. There are people giving it 'I'm shocked and stunned SS's gone, I mean I thought he'd be gone by November but..' If you thought SS was going to go at some point anyway why are you surprised? Honestly, I've read criticism of the young lads last night . WE WON! It possibly could've been more goals but we effing WON! I keep reading that the Spanish geezer has no managerial experience and yet he's been coaching in the Championship so I'd say he has rather a good idea of what goes on this division maybe more so than someone who hadn't managed in this league. Walters has no experience so shouldn't be in the job and yet he's coached at youth levels, got his Masters in Sports directorship or somesuch, done his coaching badges and played football at the highest level so eh? How does he get experience if he's not given a job? We weren't doing well ok? We stayed up by the skin of out teeth with the players already supposedly unhappy with the tactics and telling the Manager that it had to change. There are some very talented young players the like we have probably not produced before and it's the Club's mission to see these lads get their chance. SS gave them that but only a dinosaur wouldn't. Baffling tactics, confused players, strange substitutions etc but that all seemed ok did it? Just flounder on until November? Is that the most agreeable month to sack managers or something? I knew we could moan our ar$es off on here but honestly! Reality check please. Anyway, this is where we are at. Get over it and let's move on  Apologies for yet another rant! |
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Post by misterj on Sept 18, 2024 10:46:58 GMT
Wouldn't be remotely surprising if any of this was true, but probably just guesswork as they're not renowned newsbreakers. Apart from anything else do we train the morning after an evening match? ABSOLUTELY train the day after a night match, we can’t beat Fleetwood on a warm dry night in Stoke never mind a cold wet one! |
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Post by 36dd on Sept 18, 2024 10:47:11 GMT
We know that because no sensible club sacks their head coach in September Forest did and got promoted. With a manager who was experienced, especially in the Championship |
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Post by baconburger on Sept 18, 2024 10:48:46 GMT
He can’t employ a HC then interfere in match days. He shouldn’t be anywhere near the team or the dressing room on match days. If as rumoured him and Schu had a bust up after the Oxford game he’s involving himself somewhere he shouldn’t be. If he has issues with the actions of the HC he should be bringing them up in a debrief/review away from everyone else ie players and preferably not in the immediate aftermath at all. The following week in either a one on one or a meeting of the technical board are the appropriate times and venues. He’s got to make his mind up whether he wants to be a director or a manager. You don't really seem to understand the point I was making. JW is the Director and as his Job Title suggests he instructs the Head Coach and yes communication is a 2-way street. I don't expect him to be immersed in the day to day activities, unless his job description calls for this.I think it's unlikely though, otherwise he'd probably be known as the manager. However you are spouting how things should be done to some type of rigid structural plan. In a small business, lots of decision-making is made 'on the hoof' and scheduled meetings are quite often for Rubber-Stamping purposes. As you see I'm using old school terminology as I've been retired for a while, but I doubt that procedures have changed a great deal. Oh, as far as being a Director and therefore not managing, I would guess that you've never performed the required duties. I think you've hit the nail on the head. They can't make their mind up what they're running resulting in trying to implement a corporate structure but with tin pot corner shop mentality. Why would I have to have performed the duties to know what they should look like. Directors/Senior management don't go interfering in the day to day execution, they don't debrief or appraise the performance of their line/man managers in front of the staff they have to manage. They don't hold a post mortem in the minutes or hours after an adverse event they gather information analyse that information then act to appraise, advise, discipline, put things in place to avoid reoccurrence in a controlled environment with only the people who need to be involved even if that means holding meetings with numerous individuals/groups. |
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Post by 36dd on Sept 18, 2024 10:49:16 GMT
There’s something strange in the changing room, who you gonna call?
Dean Whitehead (style of Ghostbusters)
😂🙈
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Post by jonso on Sept 18, 2024 10:51:43 GMT
Look at Ryan’s interview on SCFC website, “Give the new manager a chance to see the lads play”. Job done!
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Post by Biblical on Sept 18, 2024 10:54:40 GMT
Or a HC that has won just 2 of his 5 league games this season, losing the other 3, and scoring just 3 goals along the way. A HC who has no style of play, no clue what to do with substitutions, and who gets completely out-coached during games every other week. I'd imagine the DoF would have set goals for our HC to achieve, I'll take a stab that they'd involve giving plenty of minutes to our academy boys (He just about gets a pass on this), he'd have a style of play that he wants to see (Massive failure on this), and he'd have more than likely set a points total/league position to be in at 'x' stage (We can only guess at what they'd be but I'd imagine he again failed this one). Or a manager who has come into a basket case club and steadied the ship. Played some of the best front foot football we've seen in years. Blooding young talent. Has good support from most of its fan base. Is only 5 games into the season. 15 points in 8 games (auto promotion form that) Of course there's been some shit performances. How wouldn't there be when your clearing up a mess and simultaneously trying to build a young side. So what happens when Pelach loses 3 or 4 in 6 or 7? You've set a standard now John. Surely he needs sacking doesn't he John. Shit optics, badly managed by little Johnny Walters. And so the general consensus will continue that stoke are all the gear and no fucking idea. Billy smarts circus.... It comes down to opinions doesn’t it but I definitely didn’t see some of the best front foot football we’ve seen in years. I saw the exact same thing we’ve seen in recent years. Wild inconsistency and a struggle to break down bang average teams for the most part. There were signs of life at the very end of last season, but any optimism has been quickly snuffed out with some of the absolute dross we’ve seen this season already. |
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Post by mickstupp on Sept 18, 2024 11:03:06 GMT
Or a manager who has come into a basket case club and steadied the ship. Played some of the best front foot football we've seen in years. Blooding young talent. Has good support from most of its fan base. Is only 5 games into the season. 15 points in 8 games (auto promotion form that) Of course there's been some shit performances. How wouldn't there be when your clearing up a mess and simultaneously trying to build a young side. So what happens when Pelach loses 3 or 4 in 6 or 7? You've set a standard now John. Surely he needs sacking doesn't he John. Shit optics, badly managed by little Johnny Walters. And so the general consensus will continue that stoke are all the gear and no fucking idea. Billy smarts circus.... It comes down to opinions doesn’t it but I definitely didn’t see some of the best front foot football we’ve seen in years. I saw the exact same thing we’ve seen in recent years. Wild inconsistency and a struggle to break down bang average teams for the most part. There were signs of life at the very end of last season, but any optimism has been quickly snuffed out with some of the absolute dross we’ve seen this season already. Correct. Some of the rewriting of history on here when it comes to SS is quite incredible. For the most part, we’ve been absolutely atrocious this season. |
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Post by senojbor on Sept 18, 2024 11:04:51 GMT
I walk my dog around CW on lots of mornings. Every day of the week there is training going on. Stoke have a lot of players of different ages and groups.
This morning the place was packed even the overflow car park, a few juniors and a keeper training, that's all
All the first team were in because I know their cars and they have their own space.
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Post by teenagefanclub on Sept 18, 2024 11:06:31 GMT
He agreed a three year deal yesterday, today is about sorting out last bits with back room staff. He will be in charge on Friday.
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Post by mickeythemaestro on Sept 18, 2024 11:17:40 GMT
It comes down to opinions doesn’t it but I definitely didn’t see some of the best front foot football we’ve seen in years. I saw the exact same thing we’ve seen in recent years. Wild inconsistency and a struggle to break down bang average teams for the most part. There were signs of life at the very end of last season, but any optimism has been quickly snuffed out with some of the absolute dross we’ve seen this season already. Correct. Some of the rewriting of history on here when it comes to SS is quite incredible. For the most part, we’ve been absolutely atrocious this season. I don't think there's been a rewriting of history. And if anything we are downplaying the utter mess the club has been for 6 years. And how it was particularly bad when the hapless AN left us a pile of shit. Schumacher hasn't pulled up trees by any stretch. Not saying he has. He kept us up against a horrific background. I was under the impression this was a rebuild with a young coach tasked with building a new young team. It would take time. There will be ups and downs. We have seen some very decent football. Not as much as we'd have liked but the signs were there. 5 games in when he's still not been able to work with all the additional signings is way too soon to abandon the project. For me it shows a failure of Walters part to work with his HC and perhaps indicates he always had this in mind. Have your opinion fair doos but I'm edging towards the fact Walters is out of his depth. Hasn't the experience. Back to the drawing board yet again. More new players in and out in Jan to suit the new incumbent. Assuming trigger happy Walters hasn't canned him by then. With his ego I could see him stepping unto the dug out at some point 😆 🤦♂️ |
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Post by mickstupp on Sept 18, 2024 11:23:19 GMT
Correct. Some of the rewriting of history on here when it comes to SS is quite incredible. For the most part, we’ve been absolutely atrocious this season. I don't think there's been a rewriting of history. And if anything we are downplaying the utter mess the club has been for 6 years. And how it was particularly bad when the hapless AN left us a pile of shit. Schumacher hasn't pulled up trees by any stretch. Not saying he has. He kept us up against a horrific background. I was under the impression this was a rebuild with a young coach tasked with building a new young team. It would take time. There will be ups and downs. We have seen some very decent football. Not as much as we'd have liked but the signs were there. 5 games in when he's still not been able to work with all the additional signings is way too soon to abandon the project. For me it shows a failure of Walters part to work with his HC and perhaps indicates he always had this in mind. Have your opinion fair doos but I'm edging towards the fact Walters is out of his depth. Hasn't the experience. Back to the drawing board yet again. More new players in and out in Jan to suit the new incumbent. Assuming trigger happy Walters hasn't canned him by then. With his ego I could see him stepping unto the dug out at some point 😆 🤦♂️ I see things quite the opposite. I don’t see any sign of “ego” from Walters at all. He’s simply acting appropriately and making a change where he deems necessary. That’s his job, and he will live or die on his sword I guess. On the pitch, although SS was a likeable character and I wish him luck in the future, it was quite clear from early on that he was uncomfortable in the role and the job was too big for him. A decent run at the end of last season gave him a five game trial this season and he’s failed. Performances simply haven’t been good enough, even in the games that we’ve managed to win. |
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Post by senojbor on Sept 18, 2024 11:26:09 GMT
we’ve been absolutely atrocious this season. Most part? What planet are you on? Since when has 5 Wins out of 8 been absolutely atrocious? |
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Post by FullerMagic on Sept 18, 2024 11:34:19 GMT
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Post by gaznandi on Sept 18, 2024 11:39:27 GMT
Same things said about Nathan Jones, same said about Steven Schumacher and so on and so on........ (not by Muniesa obviously) |
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Post by emretezzy on Sept 18, 2024 11:45:02 GMT
This is sort of the point that underpins everything, isn’t it? We’ve all got our biases, whether conscious or unconscious - what we like, what we want to see - and as things play out we probably interpret things to either fit or go against what we think is the right way of doing things. There’ll be people who didn’t rate Schumacher, and those who did and thought he had it in him to succeed. I’m in the latter and seems like you are too. SJW and some others on the message board were in the former. We probably see and highlight different things in games which either encourage or alarm depending on the stance we’ve taken. On reflection, while at the time I was buzzing about the results and performances at the very end of last season someone else, such as someone who has had the thought for months that Schumacher’s the wrong man and now has the authority to swing a big axe, might see it as a worry that we didn’t pick that level up this season and why it took the jeopardy we were in last season to get that out of the side. Neither are views are innately wrong, just that we probably offer greater value to the view which conforms to our perspective. Ultimately, if Walters has wanted to make the change since he was appointed either in the Interim or Permanent role, it probably comes to the point where it’s best for everyone to call it time and let everyone go in a different direction. It’s a ballsy move, but even if you have the best people appointed, if they aren’t on the same page and are always at each other’s throats it’s not going to work. And I don’t really buy the yes man argument. Ultimately, if I don’t work to the strategy my boss lays out he’s going to be pissed off and want to know why. Equally, Schumacher was within his right to be pissed off if one of the players was doing stuff that went against what he was asking him to do - he’d drop them, send them to Blackburn, or whatever and that’s perfectly fine. This really sums up the whole situation. Schumacher was doing ok but on the other hand there have been some woeful performances. Walters was brought in after Schumacher as sporting director and is effectively Schumacher's boss. If the two don't see eye to eye on the way forward then it is probably best to part ways rather than drag this out for another few months (like we did with Alex Neil). It's a brave move from Walters, If it goes wrong then he's toast. Fan's have been asking the club to widen the net of potential managers beyond British managers for years - though I'm not sure this is what they had in mind! Managers, not first team coaches who have shot to fame after a 45 min YouTube Video. |
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Post by samba :) on Sept 18, 2024 11:57:33 GMT
I’m quite excited about him. I think he’ll be a nutcase but in a better way than Nath was, I feel like we need someone to go in and sort the club out and say it how it is
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Post by lordb on Sept 18, 2024 12:04:22 GMT
I’m quite excited about him. I think he’ll be a nutcase but in a better way than Nath was, I feel like we need someone to go in and sort the club out and say it how it is Where are you getting the nutcase vibe from? Tbh I don't understand how anyone has got a clear picture re him as there is so little out there about him One interview from a year ago If he's developed a reputation within the game then great but it appears to be an absolute secret which in the current media heavy era is strange Sacked by Girona reserves for getting relegated, undistinguished stunt at a Spanish 4th division side (which in standard equates to National League north, ish) various coaching roles at Huddersfield and Norwich How he has landed a Championship job is a mystery |
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Post by stokesupporter on Sept 18, 2024 12:08:29 GMT
It's nice to be nice but that doesn't mean that nice people are good managers.
I have my doubts about Pelach but I really hope he will succeed, otherwise we are looking for a new manager and new director of football which basicly means starting all over again. If that happens I just hope that we can atleast keep our talented youngsters at this club.
Fearing for the worst but hoping for the best.
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Post by sportsman on Sept 18, 2024 12:22:12 GMT
I’m quite excited about him. I think he’ll be a nutcase but in a better way than Nath was, I feel like we need someone to go in and sort the club out and say it how it is Where are you getting the nutcase vibe from? Tbh I don't understand how anyone has got a clear picture re him as there is so little out there about him One interview from a year ago If he's developed a reputation within the game then great but it appears to be an absolute secret which in the current media heavy era is strange Sacked by Girona reserves for getting relegated, undistinguished stunt at a Spanish 4th division side (which in standard equates to National League north, ish) various coaching roles at Huddersfield and Norwich How he has landed a Championship job is a mystery How many of them roles was he manager or head coach? |
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Post by bigvern on Sept 18, 2024 12:24:02 GMT
I’m quite excited about him. I think he’ll be a nutcase but in a better way than Nath was, I feel like we need someone to go in and sort the club out and say it how it is Where are you getting the nutcase vibe from? Tbh I don't understand how anyone has got a clear picture re him as there is so little out there about him One interview from a year ago If he's developed a reputation within the game then great but it appears to be an absolute secret which in the current media heavy era is strange Sacked by Girona reserves for getting relegated, undistinguished stunt at a Spanish 4th division side (which in standard equates to National League north, ish) various coaching roles at Huddersfield and Norwich How he has landed a Championship job is a mystery If his name was Harold Shufflebothom, he wouldn't have much hope of getting the job. |
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Post by lordb on Sept 18, 2024 12:25:47 GMT
Where are you getting the nutcase vibe from? Tbh I don't understand how anyone has got a clear picture re him as there is so little out there about him One interview from a year ago If he's developed a reputation within the game then great but it appears to be an absolute secret which in the current media heavy era is strange Sacked by Girona reserves for getting relegated, undistinguished stunt at a Do58&”wlKKj^Dvb3 (which in standard equates to National League north, ish) various coaching roles at Huddersfield and Norwich How he has landed a Championship job is a mystery How many of them roles was he manager or head coach? 2 Girona reserves, relegated & sacked & Spanish 4th div side about 5 years ago since then he's been a coach & at Norwich last season he wasn't even first team coach he was purely the defensive coach how has he got the job? please explain |
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Post by walrus on Sept 18, 2024 12:25:52 GMT
Or a manager who has come into a basket case club and steadied the ship. Played some of the best front foot football we've seen in years. Blooding young talent. Has good support from most of its fan base. Is only 5 games into the season. 15 points in 8 games (auto promotion form that) Of course there's been some shit performances. How wouldn't there be when your clearing up a mess and simultaneously trying to build a young side. So what happens when Pelach loses 3 or 4 in 6 or 7? You've set a standard now John. Surely he needs sacking doesn't he John. Shit optics, badly managed by little Johnny Walters. And so the general consensus will continue that stoke are all the gear and no fucking idea. Billy smarts circus.... It comes down to opinions doesn’t it but I definitely didn’t see some of the best front foot football we’ve seen in years. I saw the exact same thing we’ve seen in recent years. Wild inconsistency and a struggle to break down bang average teams for the most part. There were signs of life at the very end of last season, but any optimism has been quickly snuffed out with some of the absolute dross we’ve seen this season already. Great post. For all Schumacher’s talk about positive football and his “non-negotiables” a lot of the matches in his era were pretty much indistinguishable from Neil’s. Lost midfield battles, passive football at home, a strange inclination to revert to a wingback system that didn’t work for our squad, and ineffective substitutions. Both had one run of excellent form that saved us from real relegation trouble but other than that struggled to score goals and get results. Schumacher’s a lot more likeable than Neil and was easier to get behind on a personal level. But I want a tactically astute manager who gets the most from our squad, not a bloke who I wouldn’t mind going for a pint with. |
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Post by itsmorethanagame on Sept 18, 2024 12:27:44 GMT
I’m fairness Schumacher didn’t have much more experience when he took over Plymouth. Similar sort of backgrounds with both retired early. Obviously he then did a great job with Plymouth but he had no management experience before.
I know nothing about this guy and he could turn out to be anything. There must be something seriously appealing about him though for us to pluck him from basically nowhere to be our manager.
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Post by figo85 on Sept 18, 2024 12:29:11 GMT
How many of them roles was he manager or head coach? 2 Girona reserves, relegated & sacked & Spanish 4th div side about 5 years ago since then he's been a coach & at Norwich last season he wasn't even first team coach he was purely the defensive coach how has he got the job? please explain Because there’s a picture of him somewhere having a chat with Pep. |
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Post by Wizbit on Sept 18, 2024 12:31:05 GMT
My problem with the past managers since rowett is that nobody has given us an identity and all of them wanted to outthink what the other coach was going to to instead of giving them something to worry about, establish a system and stick to it only then will we see improvement, changing every 3 or 4 games only creates confusion
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Post by J-Roar on Sept 18, 2024 12:31:07 GMT
This is sort of the point that underpins everything, isn’t it? We’ve all got our biases, whether conscious or unconscious - what we like, what we want to see - and as things play out we probably interpret things to either fit or go against what we think is the right way of doing things. There’ll be people who didn’t rate Schumacher, and those who did and thought he had it in him to succeed. I’m in the latter and seems like you are too. SJW and some others on the message board were in the former. We probably see and highlight different things in games which either encourage or alarm depending on the stance we’ve taken. On reflection, while at the time I was buzzing about the results and performances at the very end of last season someone else, such as someone who has had the thought for months that Schumacher’s the wrong man and now has the authority to swing a big axe, might see it as a worry that we didn’t pick that level up this season and why it took the jeopardy we were in last season to get that out of the side. Neither are views are innately wrong, just that we probably offer greater value to the view which conforms to our perspective. Ultimately, if Walters has wanted to make the change since he was appointed either in the Interim or Permanent role, it probably comes to the point where it’s best for everyone to call it time and let everyone go in a different direction. It’s a ballsy move, but even if you have the best people appointed, if they aren’t on the same page and are always at each other’s throats it’s not going to work. And I don’t really buy the yes man argument. Ultimately, if I don’t work to the strategy my boss lays out he’s going to be pissed off and want to know why. Equally, Schumacher was within his right to be pissed off if one of the players was doing stuff that went against what he was asking him to do - he’d drop them, send them to Blackburn, or whatever and that’s perfectly fine. This really sums up the whole situation. Schumacher was doing ok but on the other hand there have been some woeful performances. Walters was brought in after Schumacher as sporting director and is effectively Schumacher's boss. If the two don't see eye to eye on the way forward then it is probably best to part ways rather than drag this out for another few months (like we did with Alex Neil). It's a brave move from Walters, If it goes wrong then he's toast. Fan's have been asking the club to widen the net of potential managers beyond British managers for years - though I'm not sure this is what they had in mind! It's kind of brave. If he gets sacked I assume that he'll get HIS contract paid up. Seems you can't really lose in football at this level. |
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Post by bagnallboothen on Sept 18, 2024 12:35:58 GMT
My problem with the past managers since rowett is that nobody has given us an identity and all of them wanted to outthink what the other coach was going to to instead of giving them something to worry about, establish a system and stick to it only then will we see improvement, changing every 3 or 4 games only creates confusion What identity did Rowett give us? |
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Apologies for yet another rant!
