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Post by Seymour Beaver on Jan 15, 2024 18:09:55 GMT
"Those who burn books will in the end burn people" Heinrick Heine
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Post by thehartshillbadger on Jan 15, 2024 18:26:36 GMT
"Those who burn books will in the end bum people" Heinrick Heine Interesting |
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Post by iancransonsknees on Jan 15, 2024 19:05:27 GMT
I refer you to my previous example. www.hudson.org/national-security-defense/france-s-other-burning-churchesPeople seem to get less het up over one than the other. Burning a book, despite being despicable, doesn't run the risk of killing anyone. All works of fiction and their associated landmarks deserve treating with respect. As I said live and let live, it's the only way. So by the same logic the OP obviously believes murder is ok because he created a post about burning the Qur'an rather than one about murder? And if you are so concerned about burning churches why didn't you start a thread about it? The two issues you raised are also completely unconnected. The burning of churches in Canada is down to a conspiracy theory among some native Americans that there are mass graves in those churches and the arson in France is down to a mixed bag of (and I quote) "radical secularists, anarchists, leftists, feminists, sexual libertarians, feminists, Islamists, radical Muslims, and a Satanist group" - which sounds like the mercenary group organised by Hedley Lamarr in Blazing Saddles. The only common thread is the arson is related to churches - as a co-ordinated assault on Christianity it's as coherent as one of Starkiller's conspiracy theories. Absolutely no-one has said burning a book is worse than arson and implying that they are is nonsense. Let's get this straight - there is a tactic on the far right that tries to portray white Christians as the victims. You are either promoting that line or have been taken in by it. And just to set the record straight - burning churches is a bad thing. No victims to see here according to the BBC, Sky News and The Guardian. Please move along and target your misplaced outrage at some burnt books instead. |
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Post by felonious on Jan 15, 2024 19:28:35 GMT
So by the same logic the OP obviously believes murder is ok because he created a post about burning the Qur'an rather than one about murder? And if you are so concerned about burning churches why didn't you start a thread about it? The two issues you raised are also completely unconnected. The burning of churches in Canada is down to a conspiracy theory among some native Americans that there are mass graves in those churches and the arson in France is down to a mixed bag of (and I quote) "radical secularists, anarchists, leftists, feminists, sexual libertarians, feminists, Islamists, radical Muslims, and a Satanist group" - which sounds like the mercenary group organised by Hedley Lamarr in Blazing Saddles. The only common thread is the arson is related to churches - as a co-ordinated assault on Christianity it's as coherent as one of Starkiller's conspiracy theories. Absolutely no-one has said burning a book is worse than arson and implying that they are is nonsense. Let's get this straight - there is a tactic on the far right that tries to portray white Christians as the victims. You are either promoting that line or have been taken in by it. And just to set the record straight - burning churches is a bad thing. No victims to see here according to the BBC, Sky News and The Guardian. Please move along and target your misplaced outrage at some burnt books instead. If only the perpetrators had stuck to burning Bibles  |
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Post by thehartshillbadger on Jan 15, 2024 19:41:59 GMT
So by the same logic the OP obviously believes murder is ok because he created a post about burning the Qur'an rather than one about murder? And if you are so concerned about burning churches why didn't you start a thread about it? The two issues you raised are also completely unconnected. The burning of churches in Canada is down to a conspiracy theory among some native Americans that there are mass graves in those churches and the arson in France is down to a mixed bag of (and I quote) "radical secularists, anarchists, leftists, feminists, sexual libertarians, feminists, Islamists, radical Muslims, and a Satanist group" - which sounds like the mercenary group organised by Hedley Lamarr in Blazing Saddles. The only common thread is the arson is related to churches - as a co-ordinated assault on Christianity it's as coherent as one of Starkiller's conspiracy theories. Absolutely no-one has said burning a book is worse than arson and implying that they are is nonsense. Let's get this straight - there is a tactic on the far right that tries to portray white Christians as the victims. You are either promoting that line or have been taken in by it. And just to set the record straight - burning churches is a bad thing. No victims to see here according to the BBC, Sky News and The Guardian. Please move along and target your misplaced outrage at some burnt books instead. My advice, leave the news alone and your life will benefit from it. Leave it to the social justice warriors, the sanctimonious woke apologists and the downright hypocriticals. Go about your business as you would like to do and to fuck with the swivel eyed social media addicts that pollute this increasingly depressing world. 😀 |
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jan 15, 2024 20:17:53 GMT
I refer you to my previous example. www.hudson.org/national-security-defense/france-s-other-burning-churchesPeople seem to get less het up over one than the other. Burning a book, despite being despicable, doesn't run the risk of killing anyone. All works of fiction and their associated landmarks deserve treating with respect. As I said live and let live, it's the only way. So by the same logic the OP obviously believes murder is ok because he created a post about burning the Qur'an rather than one about murder? And if you are so concerned about burning churches why didn't you start a thread about it? The two issues you raised are also completely unconnected. The burning of churches in Canada is down to a conspiracy theory among some native Americans that there are mass graves in those churches and the arson in France is down to a mixed bag of (and I quote) "radical secularists, anarchists, leftists, feminists, sexual libertarians, feminists, Islamists, radical Muslims, and a Satanist group" - which sounds like the mercenary group organised by Hedley Lamarr in Blazing Saddles. The only common thread is the arson is related to churches - as a co-ordinated assault on Christianity it's as coherent as one of Starkiller's conspiracy theories. Absolutely no-one has said burning a book is worse than arson and implying that they are is nonsense. Let's get this straight - there is a tactic on the far right that tries to portray white Christians as the victims. You are either promoting that line or have been taken in by it. And just to set the record straight - burning churches is a bad thing. CB To be clear, like you, I am also against burning books ( provocative) and burning churches(deliberate targeted destruction). Where I think " we" ( in this case I'll confine that to the Uk, but arguably it is the case worldwide) have a problem with the clash of some Muslim beliefs and Western ( British?) values / laws( I don't want to get into what is meant by that , I've discussed it so many times, in different contexts , at different levels). IMO inevitably there will be a clash/ clashes in the future. I'm not trying to apportion blame in this post...although I will be accused of subliminally doing so. There are many examples but what sticks in my mind is when U have discussed this with Muslim friends, one thing they are adamant about is " You'll never get a Muslim to agree with Homosexuality". Clearly a clash with UK Law.....and if course dome people, some Christians would agree with Islam on this. I also think we have a problem when this can happen in a Religious building in the town in which I grew up. www.west-midlands.police.uk/news/stoke-trent-imam-sentenced-after-preaching-hate#:~:text=Kamran%20Hussain%2C%20aged%2040%20and,Central%20Criminal%20Court%20in%20London. When I taught RE ( I am a reluctant atheist) I arranged visits to Mosques, Synagogues, Gurdwaras, Hindu Temples etc and had visitors into school to discuss " religion " and answer questions.....by far the teaching of Islam was more difficult than other religions, simple things such as inadvertently " saying the wrong thing", not just things like " showing the image of Muhammed ", but "allowing" students to say things which might be construed differently or considered to be insulting to Islam. As you know the teaching of RE isn't to make children " believers", but to provide information, encourage scrutiny, exploration and discussion ....and hopefully breakdown barriers, and encourage tolerance.....it was more difficult with Islam, simply because some things should not be questioned And I would add that in some communities , as Islam as grown in presence and influence,some people perceive this as seeing " their" way of life under threat, rightly or wrongly...they interpretation this in the background of the worldwide clash of Islam and " the West ", events such as the do called " grooming gangs" , the parallel communities thst now exist in " their" towns.....of course you could and probably will see this as " dig -whistling:, blame the scapegoat, the right wing press......I'm just saying that isn't how they see it. |
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Post by Paul Spencer on Jan 15, 2024 20:26:15 GMT
So by the same logic the OP obviously believes murder is ok because he created a post about burning the Qur'an rather than one about murder? And if you are so concerned about burning churches why didn't you start a thread about it? The two issues you raised are also completely unconnected. The burning of churches in Canada is down to a conspiracy theory among some native Americans that there are mass graves in those churches and the arson in France is down to a mixed bag of (and I quote) "radical secularists, anarchists, leftists, feminists, sexual libertarians, feminists, Islamists, radical Muslims, and a Satanist group" - which sounds like the mercenary group organised by Hedley Lamarr in Blazing Saddles. The only common thread is the arson is related to churches - as a co-ordinated assault on Christianity it's as coherent as one of Starkiller's conspiracy theories. Absolutely no-one has said burning a book is worse than arson and implying that they are is nonsense. Let's get this straight - there is a tactic on the far right that tries to portray white Christians as the victims. You are either promoting that line or have been taken in by it. And just to set the record straight - burning churches is a bad thing. CB To be clear, like you, I am also against burning books ( provocative) and burning churches(deliberate targeted destruction). Where I think " we" ( in this case I'll confine that to the Uk, but arguably it is the case worldwide) have a problem with the clash of some Muslim beliefs and Western ( British?) values / laws( I don't want to get into what is meant by that , I've discussed it so many times, in different contexts , at different levels). IMO inevitably there will be a clash/ clashes in the future. I'm not trying to apportion blame in this post...although I will be accused of subliminally doing so. There are many examples but what sticks in my mind is when U have discussed this with Muslim friends, one thing they are adamant about is " You'll never get a Muslim to agree with Homosexuality". Clearly a clash with UK Law.....and if course dome people, some Christians would agree with Islam on this. I also think we have a problem when this can happen in a Religious building in the town in which I grew up. www.west-midlands.police.uk/news/stoke-trent-imam-sentenced-after-preaching-hate#:~:text=Kamran%20Hussain%2C%20aged%2040%20and,Central%20Criminal%20Court%20in%20London. When I taught RE ( I am a reluctant atheist) I arranged visits to Mosques, Synagogues, Gurdwaras, Hindu Temples etc and had visitors into school to discuss " religion " and answer questions.....by far the teaching of Islam was more difficult than other religions, simple things such as inadvertently " saying the wrong thing", not just things like " showing the image of Muhammed ", but "allowing" students to say things which might be construed differently or considered to be insulting to Islam. As you know the teaching of RE isn't to make children " believers", but to provide information, encourage scrutiny, exploration and discussion ....and hopefully breakdown barriers, and encourage tolerance.....it was more difficult with Islam, simply because some things should not be questioned Pretty much agree with all of that, personally, I think Islam is a wretched religion on so many levels but what interests me most about your post, is what do you mean by being a *reluctant* atheist BJR? |
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Post by thehartshillbadger on Jan 15, 2024 20:30:12 GMT
CB To be clear, like you, I am also against burning books ( provocative) and burning churches(deliberate targeted destruction). Where I think " we" ( in this case I'll confine that to the Uk, but arguably it is the case worldwide) have a problem with the clash of some Muslim beliefs and Western ( British?) values / laws( I don't want to get into what is meant by that , I've discussed it so many times, in different contexts , at different levels). IMO inevitably there will be a clash/ clashes in the future. I'm not trying to apportion blame in this post...although I will be accused of subliminally doing so. There are many examples but what sticks in my mind is when U have discussed this with Muslim friends, one thing they are adamant about is " You'll never get a Muslim to agree with Homosexuality". Clearly a clash with UK Law.....and if course dome people, some Christians would agree with Islam on this. I also think we have a problem when this can happen in a Religious building in the town in which I grew up. www.west-midlands.police.uk/news/stoke-trent-imam-sentenced-after-preaching-hate#:~:text=Kamran%20Hussain%2C%20aged%2040%20and,Central%20Criminal%20Court%20in%20London. When I taught RE ( I am a reluctant atheist) I arranged visits to Mosques, Synagogues, Gurdwaras, Hindu Temples etc and had visitors into school to discuss " religion " and answer questions.....by far the teaching of Islam was more difficult than other religions, simple things such as inadvertently " saying the wrong thing", not just things like " showing the image of Muhammed ", but "allowing" students to say things which might be construed differently or considered to be insulting to Islam. As you know the teaching of RE isn't to make children " believers", but to provide information, encourage scrutiny, exploration and discussion ....and hopefully breakdown barriers, and encourage tolerance.....it was more difficult with Islam, simply because some things should not be questioned Pretty much agree with all of that, personally, I think Islam is a wretched religion on so many levels but what interests me most about your post, is what do you mean by being a *reluctant* atheist BJR? Tbf you’re taking your life into your hands going to church with all those unsafe roofs. Why is it church roofs are so susceptible to caving in? One of life’s great mysteries…….👀 |
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jan 15, 2024 21:06:15 GMT
CB To be clear, like you, I am also against burning books ( provocative) and burning churches(deliberate targeted destruction). Where I think " we" ( in this case I'll confine that to the Uk, but arguably it is the case worldwide) have a problem with the clash of some Muslim beliefs and Western ( British?) values / laws( I don't want to get into what is meant by that , I've discussed it so many times, in different contexts , at different levels). IMO inevitably there will be a clash/ clashes in the future. I'm not trying to apportion blame in this post...although I will be accused of subliminally doing so. There are many examples but what sticks in my mind is when U have discussed this with Muslim friends, one thing they are adamant about is " You'll never get a Muslim to agree with Homosexuality". Clearly a clash with UK Law.....and if course dome people, some Christians would agree with Islam on this. I also think we have a problem when this can happen in a Religious building in the town in which I grew up. www.west-midlands.police.uk/news/stoke-trent-imam-sentenced-after-preaching-hate#:~:text=Kamran%20Hussain%2C%20aged%2040%20and,Central%20Criminal%20Court%20in%20London. When I taught RE ( I am a reluctant atheist) I arranged visits to Mosques, Synagogues, Gurdwaras, Hindu Temples etc and had visitors into school to discuss " religion " and answer questions.....by far the teaching of Islam was more difficult than other religions, simple things such as inadvertently " saying the wrong thing", not just things like " showing the image of Muhammed ", but "allowing" students to say things which might be construed differently or considered to be insulting to Islam. As you know the teaching of RE isn't to make children " believers", but to provide information, encourage scrutiny, exploration and discussion ....and hopefully breakdown barriers, and encourage tolerance.....it was more difficult with Islam, simply because some things should not be questioned Pretty much agree with all of that, personally, I think Islam is a wretched religion on so many levels but what interests me most about your post, is what do you mean by being a *reluctant* atheist BJR? I was brought up in a totally non-religious house. I got influenced in my teenage years by a very charismatic teacher who ran a Christian youth GROUP. Became a " born again " committed Christian, went to Manchester University to study " Multi faith Religions"...( .not traditional RE, the best Module was " Philosophy of Religion ", but I had a Parsee teaching Zoroastrianism( Zoroaster was very similar to Jesus, Freddie Mercury was a Parsee), a Buddhist teaching Theravadan Buddhism etc, etc.( the course did put in some doubts that " God" would choose this historic Jewish man to be "the Saviour of the world ") Went to a black Pentecostal church for some time, spoke in tongues ( the Apostolic church in Tunstall!....really good spiritual singing) And as I've got older, just so many issues/ questions that made me doubt it all completely.....don't know where to start.....What's the point in prayer...." God" doesn't intervene, if he does so it is very hypocritical....why turn water into wine, but allow children to have cancer, the atrocities in Gaza, etc etc etc. Why does God need to be worshipped, surely it is a good trait to be modest, The so called virgin birth....be interesting if someone tried to pull that one today.....cone on it was Joseph or someone else....what would the DNA be of Jesus. Original sin is unfair....unjust....and how did Jesus's dying pay for " my" sins?...who are we paying? Why set up a system thst relies on some historical fact in a book in a remote part of the world....why didn't God choose , say, a Native American ( Jesus never denied his Jewishness and I don't think the western support for Judaism is a coincidence. Equally I think Islam was invented to give identi yo Arabs, to oppose Jews. Both religions are small cults that have got out of hand. Also if there was a God, I don't think he or she would be stupid....I think he could understand my reservations.....Most of what I've questioned could be considered blasphemy if transposed to Islam...eg....the Bible and Quaran are just books, man made....you could not openly and honestly discuss that in a multicultural class room I think religion is important culturally and should be studied. Never intended to join the Church but did become a Methodist local preacher. Joined the Police simply because I don't like bullying and believe in justice. I know you picked upon the word reluctant.....I could go on....in some ways it's nice and easy to be a simple believer....the reluctant was a bit tongue in cheek |
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Post by thehartshillbadger on Jan 15, 2024 21:07:42 GMT
Pretty much agree with all of that, personally, I think Islam is a wretched religion on so many levels but what interests me most about your post, is what do you mean by being a *reluctant* atheist BJR? I was brought up in a totally non-religious house. I got influenced in my teenage years by a very charismatic teacher who ran a Christian youth GROUP. Became a " born again " committed Christian, went to Manchester University to study " Multi faith Religions"...( .not traditional RE, the best Module was " Philosophy of Religion ", but I had a Parsee teaching Zoroastrianism, a Buddhist teaching Theravadan Buddhism etc, etc.( the course did put in some doubts that " God" would choose this historic Jewish man to be "the Saviour of the world " Went to a black Pentecostal church for some time, spoke in tongues ( the Apostolic church in Tunstall!....really good spiritual singing) And as I've got older, just so many issues/ questions that made me doubt it all completely.....don't know where to start.....What's the point in prayer...." God" doesn't intervene, if he does so it is very hypocritical....why turn water into wine, but allow children to have cancer, the atrocities in Gaza, etc etc etc. Why does God need to be worshipped, surely it is a good trait to be modest, The so called virgin birth....be interesting if someone tried to pull that one today.....cone on it was Joseph or someone else....what would the DNA be of Jesus. Original sin is unfair....unjust....and how did Jesus's dying pay for " my" sins?...who are we paying? Why set up a system thst relies on some historical fact in a book in a remote part of the world....why didn't God choose , say, a Native American ( Jesus never denied his Jewishness and I don't think the western support for Judaism is a coincidence. Equally I think Islam was invented to give identi yo Arabs, to oppose Jews. Both religions are small cults that have got out of hand. Also if there was a God, I don't think he or she would be stupid....I think he could understand my reservations.....Most of what I've questioned could be considered blasphemy if transposed to Islam...eg....the Bible and Quaran are just books, man made....you could not openly and honestly discuss that in a multicultural class room I think religion is important culturally and should be studied. Never intended to join the Church but did become a Methodist local preacher. Joined the Police simply because I don't like bullying and believe in justice. I know you picked upon the word reluctant.....I could go on....in some ways it's nice and easy to be a simple believer....the reluctant was a bit tongue in cheek Brilliant post, bravo |
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jan 15, 2024 21:19:11 GMT
CB To be clear, like you, I am also against burning books ( provocative) and burning churches(deliberate targeted destruction). Where I think " we" ( in this case I'll confine that to the Uk, but arguably it is the case worldwide) have a problem with the clash of some Muslim beliefs and Western ( British?) values / laws( I don't want to get into what is meant by that , I've discussed it so many times, in different contexts , at different levels). IMO inevitably there will be a clash/ clashes in the future. I'm not trying to apportion blame in this post...although I will be accused of subliminally doing so. There are many examples but what sticks in my mind is when U have discussed this with Muslim friends, one thing they are adamant about is " You'll never get a Muslim to agree with Homosexuality". Clearly a clash with UK Law.....and if course dome people, some Christians would agree with Islam on this. I also think we have a problem when this can happen in a Religious building in the town in which I grew up. www.west-midlands.police.uk/news/stoke-trent-imam-sentenced-after-preaching-hate#:~:text=Kamran%20Hussain%2C%20aged%2040%20and,Central%20Criminal%20Court%20in%20London. When I taught RE ( I am a reluctant atheist) I arranged visits to Mosques, Synagogues, Gurdwaras, Hindu Temples etc and had visitors into school to discuss " religion " and answer questions.....by far the teaching of Islam was more difficult than other religions, simple things such as inadvertently " saying the wrong thing", not just things like " showing the image of Muhammed ", but "allowing" students to say things which might be construed differently or considered to be insulting to Islam. As you know the teaching of RE isn't to make children " believers", but to provide information, encourage scrutiny, exploration and discussion ....and hopefully breakdown barriers, and encourage tolerance.....it was more difficult with Islam, simply because some things should not be questioned Pretty much agree with all of that, personally, I think Islam is a wretched religion on so many levels but what interests me most about your post, is what do you mean by being a *reluctant* atheist BJR? Your question has caused me to do a bit of " reminiscing " Paul This is the Apostolic church I went to, when I went it was based in High Street Tunstall cacfc.org.uk/gallery-2/And the Tunstall Methodist Youth group became www.potterschurch.co.uk/Well wortha visit, full of young people, very musical Instigated by the great Barber family of Stoke on Trent...imo a truly great family, done so much good in Stoke-on-Trent ( Barber's cinemas Tunstall was the same family, " From the workhouse to Lord Mayor " www.abebooks.co.uk/first-edition/WORKHOUSE-LORD-MAYOR-Autobiography-George-Barber/31198864131/bdChancellor of Keele University ) |
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Post by Paul Spencer on Jan 15, 2024 21:23:09 GMT
Pretty much agree with all of that, personally, I think Islam is a wretched religion on so many levels but what interests me most about your post, is what do you mean by being a *reluctant* atheist BJR? I was brought up in a totally non-religious house. I got influenced in my teenage years by a very charismatic teacher who ran a Christian youth GROUP. Became a " born again " committed Christian, went to Manchester University to study " Multi faith Religions"...( .not traditional RE, the best Module was " Philosophy of Religion ", but I had a Parsee teaching Zoroastrianism( Zoroaster was very similar to Jesus, Freddie Mercury was a Parsee), a Buddhist teaching Theravadan Buddhism etc, etc.( the course did put in some doubts that " God" would choose this historic Jewish man to be "the Saviour of the world ") Went to a black Pentecostal church for some time, spoke in tongues ( the Apostolic church in Tunstall!....really good spiritual singing) And as I've got older, just so many issues/ questions that made me doubt it all completely.....don't know where to start.....What's the point in prayer...." God" doesn't intervene, if he does so it is very hypocritical....why turn water into wine, but allow children to have cancer, the atrocities in Gaza, etc etc etc. Why does God need to be worshipped, surely it is a good trait to be modest, The so called virgin birth....be interesting if someone tried to pull that one today.....cone on it was Joseph or someone else....what would the DNA be of Jesus. Original sin is unfair....unjust....and how did Jesus's dying pay for " my" sins?...who are we paying? Why set up a system thst relies on some historical fact in a book in a remote part of the world....why didn't God choose , say, a Native American ( Jesus never denied his Jewishness and I don't think the western support for Judaism is a coincidence. Equally I think Islam was invented to give identi yo Arabs, to oppose Jews. Both religions are small cults that have got out of hand. Also if there was a God, I don't think he or she would be stupid....I think he could understand my reservations.....Most of what I've questioned could be considered blasphemy if transposed to Islam...eg....the Bible and Quaran are just books, man made....you could not openly and honestly discuss that in a multicultural class room I think religion is important culturally and should be studied. Never intended to join the Church but did become a Methodist local preacher. Joined the Police simply because I don't like bullying and believe in justice. I know you picked upon the word reluctant.....I could go on....in some ways it's nice and easy to be a simple believer....the reluctant was a bit tongue in cheek Great answer. You said that you were influenced by a charismatic teacher, which led to you becoming 'born again' but did you ultimately figure out the truth for yourself, or was there equally a person or an event that also influenced you the other way? |
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jan 15, 2024 21:30:06 GMT
I was brought up in a totally non-religious house. I got influenced in my teenage years by a very charismatic teacher who ran a Christian youth GROUP. Became a " born again " committed Christian, went to Manchester University to study " Multi faith Religions"...( .not traditional RE, the best Module was " Philosophy of Religion ", but I had a Parsee teaching Zoroastrianism( Zoroaster was very similar to Jesus, Freddie Mercury was a Parsee), a Buddhist teaching Theravadan Buddhism etc, etc.( the course did put in some doubts that " God" would choose this historic Jewish man to be "the Saviour of the world ") Went to a black Pentecostal church for some time, spoke in tongues ( the Apostolic church in Tunstall!....really good spiritual singing) And as I've got older, just so many issues/ questions that made me doubt it all completely.....don't know where to start.....What's the point in prayer...." God" doesn't intervene, if he does so it is very hypocritical....why turn water into wine, but allow children to have cancer, the atrocities in Gaza, etc etc etc. Why does God need to be worshipped, surely it is a good trait to be modest, The so called virgin birth....be interesting if someone tried to pull that one today.....cone on it was Joseph or someone else....what would the DNA be of Jesus. Original sin is unfair....unjust....and how did Jesus's dying pay for " my" sins?...who are we paying? Why set up a system thst relies on some historical fact in a book in a remote part of the world....why didn't God choose , say, a Native American ( Jesus never denied his Jewishness and I don't think the western support for Judaism is a coincidence. Equally I think Islam was invented to give identi yo Arabs, to oppose Jews. Both religions are small cults that have got out of hand. Also if there was a God, I don't think he or she would be stupid....I think he could understand my reservations.....Most of what I've questioned could be considered blasphemy if transposed to Islam...eg....the Bible and Quaran are just books, man made....you could not openly and honestly discuss that in a multicultural class room I think religion is important culturally and should be studied. Never intended to join the Church but did become a Methodist local preacher. Joined the Police simply because I don't like bullying and believe in justice. I know you picked upon the word reluctant.....I could go on....in some ways it's nice and easy to be a simple believer....the reluctant was a bit tongue in cheek Great answer. You said that you were influenced by a charismatic teacher, which led to you becoming 'born again' but did you ultimately figure out the truth for yourself, or was there equally a person or an event that also influenced you the other way? No I'd have to say I worked it out for myself.i think that is one problem with beliefs, be they political or religious ( or perhaps even beliefs in Football teams), they can stop you " thinking " at all, certainly thinking differently loyalty to the Party, loyalty to God. Particularly when you are young, looking for meaning. I am not against religion per se....Martin Luther, Gandhi etc were motivated partly by religion!.....on a local level Danny at the YMCA has done much for homeless people based on his faith....and Tony Benn used to say ( quite rightly!in my opinion) that the Labour Party owed more to Methodism than Marxism.I'm pleased that one branch of Methodism, Primitive Methodists Mow Cop , had its roots in Stoke-on-Trent. |
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Post by Paul Spencer on Jan 15, 2024 21:35:51 GMT
Great answer. You said that you were influenced by a charismatic teacher, which led to you becoming 'born again' but did you ultimately figure out the truth for yourself, or was there equally a person or an event that also influenced you the other way? No I'd have to say I worked it out for myself.i think that is one problem with beliefs, be they political or religious ( or perhaps even beliefs in Football teams), they can stop you " thinking " at all, certainly thinking differently loyalty to the Party, loyalty to God. Particularly when you are young, looking for meaning. I am not against religion per se....Martin Luther, Gandhi etc were motivated partly by religion!.....on a local level Danny at the YMCA has done much for homeless people based on his faith....and Tony Benn used to say ( quite rightly!in my opinion) that the Labour Party owed more to Methodism than Marxism.I'm pleased that one branch of Methodism, Primitive Methodists Mow Cop , had its roots in Stoke-on-Trent. Agree with all of that mate. 👍 |
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jan 15, 2024 22:13:54 GMT
No I'd have to say I worked it out for myself.i think that is one problem with beliefs, be they political or religious ( or perhaps even beliefs in Football teams), they can stop you " thinking " at all, certainly thinking differently loyalty to the Party, loyalty to God. Particularly when you are young, looking for meaning. I am not against religion per se....Martin Luther, Gandhi etc were motivated partly by religion!.....on a local level Danny at the YMCA has done much for homeless people based on his faith....and Tony Benn used to say ( quite rightly!in my opinion) that the Labour Party owed more to Methodism than Marxism.I'm pleased that one branch of Methodism, Primitive Methodists Mow Cop , had its roots in Stoke-on-Trent. Agree with all of that mate. 👍 I want to say, what put the top hat on my beliefs was the death of my dog at three and half. |
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Post by felonious on Jan 16, 2024 7:30:30 GMT
Pretty much agree with all of that, personally, I think Islam is a wretched religion on so many levels but what interests me most about your post, is what do you mean by being a *reluctant* atheist BJR? I was brought up in a totally non-religious house. I got influenced in my teenage years by a very charismatic teacher who ran a Christian youth GROUP. Became a " born again " committed Christian, went to Manchester University to study " Multi faith Religions"...( .not traditional RE, the best Module was " Philosophy of Religion ", but I had a Parsee teaching Zoroastrianism( Zoroaster was very similar to Jesus, Freddie Mercury was a Parsee), a Buddhist teaching Theravadan Buddhism etc, etc.( the course did put in some doubts that " God" would choose this historic Jewish man to be "the Saviour of the world ") Went to a black Pentecostal church for some time, spoke in tongues ( the Apostolic church in Tunstall!....really good spiritual singing) And as I've got older, just so many issues/ questions that made me doubt it all completely.....don't know where to start.....What's the point in prayer...." God" doesn't intervene, if he does so it is very hypocritical....why turn water into wine, but allow children to have cancer, the atrocities in Gaza, etc etc etc. Why does God need to be worshipped, surely it is a good trait to be modest, The so called virgin birth....be interesting if someone tried to pull that one today.....cone on it was Joseph or someone else....what would the DNA be of Jesus. Original sin is unfair....unjust....and how did Jesus's dying pay for " my" sins?...who are we paying? Why set up a system thst relies on some historical fact in a book in a remote part of the world....why didn't God choose , say, a Native American ( Jesus never denied his Jewishness and I don't think the western support for Judaism is a coincidence. Equally I think Islam was invented to give identi yo Arabs, to oppose Jews. Both religions are small cults that have got out of hand. Also if there was a God, I don't think he or she would be stupid....I think he could understand my reservations.....Most of what I've questioned could be considered blasphemy if transposed to Islam...eg....the Bible and Quaran are just books, man made....you could not openly and honestly discuss that in a multicultural class room I think religion is important culturally and should be studied. Never intended to join the Church but did become a Methodist local preacher. Joined the Police simply because I don't like bullying and believe in justice. I know you picked upon the word reluctant.....I could go on....in some ways it's nice and easy to be a simple believer....the reluctant was a bit tongue in cheek So this still leaves you practising at the altar of Elvis the saviour. Come on admit it you've got a little shrine there alongside Mrs BJR's vanity mirror  |
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jan 16, 2024 8:20:44 GMT
I was brought up in a totally non-religious house. I got influenced in my teenage years by a very charismatic teacher who ran a Christian youth GROUP. Became a " born again " committed Christian, went to Manchester University to study " Multi faith Religions"...( .not traditional RE, the best Module was " Philosophy of Religion ", but I had a Parsee teaching Zoroastrianism( Zoroaster was very similar to Jesus, Freddie Mercury was a Parsee), a Buddhist teaching Theravadan Buddhism etc, etc.( the course did put in some doubts that " God" would choose this historic Jewish man to be "the Saviour of the world ") Went to a black Pentecostal church for some time, spoke in tongues ( the Apostolic church in Tunstall!....really good spiritual singing) And as I've got older, just so many issues/ questions that made me doubt it all completely.....don't know where to start.....What's the point in prayer...." God" doesn't intervene, if he does so it is very hypocritical....why turn water into wine, but allow children to have cancer, the atrocities in Gaza, etc etc etc. Why does God need to be worshipped, surely it is a good trait to be modest, The so called virgin birth....be interesting if someone tried to pull that one today.....cone on it was Joseph or someone else....what would the DNA be of Jesus. Original sin is unfair....unjust....and how did Jesus's dying pay for " my" sins?...who are we paying? Why set up a system thst relies on some historical fact in a book in a remote part of the world....why didn't God choose , say, a Native American ( Jesus never denied his Jewishness and I don't think the western support for Judaism is a coincidence. Equally I think Islam was invented to give identi yo Arabs, to oppose Jews. Both religions are small cults that have got out of hand. Also if there was a God, I don't think he or she would be stupid....I think he could understand my reservations.....Most of what I've questioned could be considered blasphemy if transposed to Islam...eg....the Bible and Quaran are just books, man made....you could not openly and honestly discuss that in a multicultural class room I think religion is important culturally and should be studied. Never intended to join the Church but did become a Methodist local preacher. Joined the Police simply because I don't like bullying and believe in justice. I know you picked upon the word reluctant.....I could go on....in some ways it's nice and easy to be a simple believer....the reluctant was a bit tongue in cheek So this still leaves you practising at the altar of Elvis the saviour. Come on admit it you've got a little shrine there alongside Mrs BJR's vanity mirror There's some truth in that Bertie, I've been told a couple of times that " Elvis is my therapy " As you and others have made clear on the music thread , many of us get meaning and peace through music, it allows us to express our deepest emotions and feelings. Elvis ( and others!) Is worshipped like a God. It was important to me to visit Mecca( Graceland)....the second most visited house after the White House in America. Those who knew Elvis have said that all through his life he was searching for meaning, for humanity. Hence this film about his search. Gospel was his favourite music. Perhaps we are all looking for meaning? m.imdb.com/title/tt6244196/?ref_=ext_shr_lnk |
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Post by prestwichpotter on Jan 16, 2024 11:53:22 GMT
Pretty much agree with all of that, personally, I think Islam is a wretched religion on so many levels but what interests me most about your post, is what do you mean by being a *reluctant* atheist BJR? I was brought up in a totally non-religious house. I got influenced in my teenage years by a very charismatic teacher who ran a Christian youth GROUP. Became a " born again " committed Christian, went to Manchester University to study " Multi faith Religions"...( .not traditional RE, the best Module was " Philosophy of Religion ", but I had a Parsee teaching Zoroastrianism( Zoroaster was very similar to Jesus, Freddie Mercury was a Parsee), a Buddhist teaching Theravadan Buddhism etc, etc.( the course did put in some doubts that " God" would choose this historic Jewish man to be "the Saviour of the world ") Went to a black Pentecostal church for some time, spoke in tongues ( the Apostolic church in Tunstall!....really good spiritual singing) And as I've got older, just so many issues/ questions that made me doubt it all completely.....don't know where to start.....What's the point in prayer...." God" doesn't intervene, if he does so it is very hypocritical....why turn water into wine, but allow children to have cancer, the atrocities in Gaza, etc etc etc. Why does God need to be worshipped, surely it is a good trait to be modest, The so called virgin birth....be interesting if someone tried to pull that one today.....cone on it was Joseph or someone else....what would the DNA be of Jesus. Original sin is unfair....unjust....and how did Jesus's dying pay for " my" sins?...who are we paying? Why set up a system thst relies on some historical fact in a book in a remote part of the world....why didn't God choose , say, a Native American ( Jesus never denied his Jewishness and I don't think the western support for Judaism is a coincidence. Equally I think Islam was invented to give identi yo Arabs, to oppose Jews. Both religions are small cults that have got out of hand. Also if there was a God, I don't think he or she would be stupid....I think he could understand my reservations.....Most of what I've questioned could be considered blasphemy if transposed to Islam...eg....the Bible and Quaran are just books, man made....you could not openly and honestly discuss that in a multicultural class room I think religion is important culturally and should be studied. Never intended to join the Church but did become a Methodist local preacher. Joined the Police simply because I don't like bullying and believe in justice. I know you picked upon the word reluctant.....I could go on....in some ways it's nice and easy to be a simple believer....the reluctant was a bit tongue in cheek Interesting answer John. I remember in my early 20's, living in Market Harborough on my own, working long unsociable hours, being skint apart from watching Stoke and in hindsight in a dark place. I read the New Testament, parts of the Tanakh and the Quran and I must say the religion that gave the most clarity (in my opinion) was Islam. Now I went to faith schools and church as a youngster and still go now occasionally with my missus and kids but would not call myself religious, but of all the monotheistic faiths I found Christianity to offer more questions than answers. Jesus was the Son of God who made the ultimate sacrifice, Jesus was God in human form, Jesus was the holy trinity? In Islam it's "there is Allah, and there is the prophet Muhammed who is his messenger". In Christianity the question similar to the one you ask "if there is a God why do people get cancer etc?" doesn't really offer an answer, in Islam there are clearer explanations around why bad things happen when God exists. Anyway I digress it was a long time ago now and I don't think I'll ever have a Eureka moment when it comes to God, but I do find the theological side of it very interesting as sad as that probably is. With regards issues such as homosexuality I always remember my Grandad, a proud Burmese Roman Catholic and literally the nicest man you could ever meet (he would give you his last penny and often did) being torn with his beliefs that homosexuality was a sin whilst working in education and helping and advising young people who were discovering and wrestling with their sexuality. His way of dealing with it was to treat people all equally and by keeping his belief to himself. I suppose some would argue that made him a hypocrite, I imagine many moderate Muslims have the same internal wrangling on the subject........... |
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jan 16, 2024 12:23:57 GMT
I was brought up in a totally non-religious house. I got influenced in my teenage years by a very charismatic teacher who ran a Christian youth GROUP. Became a " born again " committed Christian, went to Manchester University to study " Multi faith Religions"...( .not traditional RE, the best Module was " Philosophy of Religion ", but I had a Parsee teaching Zoroastrianism( Zoroaster was very similar to Jesus, Freddie Mercury was a Parsee), a Buddhist teaching Theravadan Buddhism etc, etc.( the course did put in some doubts that " God" would choose this historic Jewish man to be "the Saviour of the world ") Went to a black Pentecostal church for some time, spoke in tongues ( the Apostolic church in Tunstall!....really good spiritual singing) And as I've got older, just so many issues/ questions that made me doubt it all completely.....don't know where to start.....What's the point in prayer...." God" doesn't intervene, if he does so it is very hypocritical....why turn water into wine, but allow children to have cancer, the atrocities in Gaza, etc etc etc. Why does God need to be worshipped, surely it is a good trait to be modest, The so called virgin birth....be interesting if someone tried to pull that one today.....cone on it was Joseph or someone else....what would the DNA be of Jesus. Original sin is unfair....unjust....and how did Jesus's dying pay for " my" sins?...who are we paying? Why set up a system thst relies on some historical fact in a book in a remote part of the world....why didn't God choose , say, a Native American ( Jesus never denied his Jewishness and I don't think the western support for Judaism is a coincidence. Equally I think Islam was invented to give identi yo Arabs, to oppose Jews. Both religions are small cults that have got out of hand. Also if there was a God, I don't think he or she would be stupid....I think he could understand my reservations.....Most of what I've questioned could be considered blasphemy if transposed to Islam...eg....the Bible and Quaran are just books, man made....you could not openly and honestly discuss that in a multicultural class room I think religion is important culturally and should be studied. Never intended to join the Church but did become a Methodist local preacher. Joined the Police simply because I don't like bullying and believe in justice. I know you picked upon the word reluctant.....I could go on....in some ways it's nice and easy to be a simple believer....the reluctant was a bit tongue in cheek Interesting answer John. I remember in my early 20's, living in Market Harborough on my own, working long unsociable hours, being skint apart from watching Stoke and in hindsight in a dark place. I read the New Testament, parts of the Tanakh and the Quran and I must say the religion that gave the most clarity (in my opinion) was Islam. Now I went to faith schools and church as a youngster and still go now occasionally with my missus and kids but would not call myself religious, but of all the monotheistic faiths I found Christianity to offer more questions than answers. Jesus was the Son of God who made the ultimate sacrifice, Jesus was God in human form, Jesus was the holy trinity? In Islam it's "there is Allah, and there is the prophet Muhammed who is his messenger". In Christianity the question similar to the one you ask "if there is a God why do people get cancer etc?" doesn't really offer an answer, in Islam there are clearer explanations around why bad things happen when God exists. Anyway I digress it was a long time ago now and I don't think I'll ever have a Eureka moment when it comes to God, but I do find the theological side of it very interesting as sad as that probably is. With regards issues such as homosexuality I always remember my Grandad, a proud Burmese Roman Catholic and literally the nicest man you could ever meet (he would give you his last penny and often did) being torn with his beliefs that homosexuality was a sin whilst working in education and helping and advising young people who were discovering and wrestling with their sexuality. His way of dealing with it was to treat people all equally and by keeping his belief to himself. I suppose some would argue that made him a hypocrite, I imagine many moderate Muslims have the same internal wrangling on the subject........... Excellent post. I agree. My argument has always been " against " Islam not Muslims ....I think people brought up in the Muslim faith may be as much " victims " of the religion as others...it stops questioning etc, I think the word means " Submission". IMO Iranians seemed happier and freer before the Ayotollah came along. I don't think there is anything wrong with grappling with theology...to me it simply means trying to understand and make meaning of our short stay on earth and trying to understand others....after all most societies have had religious beliefs, giving them identity, morality and cohesion....not necessarily a good thing. Believe it or not I have read the Quran and parts of the New Testament in the Greek, the idea was to understand the meaning of words in the original text....Personally I think it is ridiculous calling Jesus "Lord" I find the New Testament " story" easier to understand and the moral stories clearer.....May be because I am a Westerner, but I honestly believe that Islam was simply invented yo TRUMP Judaism and Christianity ie it encompasses the prophets, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, relegated Jesus to a prophet( which is contradictory to the New Testament) but embraces the Judaea -Christian tradition , triumphantly proclaiming Muhammed as the greatest and last prophet....we have seen the tension between Islam and the West ever since. I don’t believe in being judgemental so would agree with your grandad.....except Jesus himself wasn't tolerant of everything....in fact it was his criticism of the Jewish elders, particularly their hypocrisy, his anger in overturning of the money changers' tables at the Temple that resulted in his crucifixion.....the point in the Good Samaritan story was that the true friend of the person who had " fell amongst thieves" wasn't the Jewish leaders but the Samaritan, the traditional enemy of the Jews. It reminds me of a Modern day equivalent. I have a friend who tells the story of his grandad. Lived in Nottingham, in the 1960s, an open self declared racist...." I hate blacks". He was driving through St Anne's in Nottingham when he saw a big black lady with shopping fall down at a bus stop. He stopped the car, couldn't do enough for her, drove her home. My friend, 8ish at the time said " I thought you hated blacks?".... Son , she's only human, you can't leave anybody like that if they need help....... I think he didn't actually like the unknown and what he saw as a threat to his way of life. |
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Post by OldStokie on Jan 16, 2024 13:53:23 GMT
Interesting answer John. I remember in my early 20's, living in Market Harborough on my own, working long unsociable hours, being skint apart from watching Stoke and in hindsight in a dark place. I read the New Testament, parts of the Tanakh and the Quran and I must say the religion that gave the most clarity (in my opinion) was Islam. Now I went to faith schools and church as a youngster and still go now occasionally with my missus and kids but would not call myself religious, but of all the monotheistic faiths I found Christianity to offer more questions than answers. Jesus was the Son of God who made the ultimate sacrifice, Jesus was God in human form, Jesus was the holy trinity? In Islam it's "there is Allah, and there is the prophet Muhammed who is his messenger". In Christianity the question similar to the one you ask "if there is a God why do people get cancer etc?" doesn't really offer an answer, in Islam there are clearer explanations around why bad things happen when God exists. Anyway I digress it was a long time ago now and I don't think I'll ever have a Eureka moment when it comes to God, but I do find the theological side of it very interesting as sad as that probably is. With regards issues such as homosexuality I always remember my Grandad, a proud Burmese Roman Catholic and literally the nicest man you could ever meet (he would give you his last penny and often did) being torn with his beliefs that homosexuality was a sin whilst working in education and helping and advising young people who were discovering and wrestling with their sexuality. His way of dealing with it was to treat people all equally and by keeping his belief to himself. I suppose some would argue that made him a hypocrite, I imagine many moderate Muslims have the same internal wrangling on the subject........... Excellent post. I agree. My argument has always been " against " Islam not Muslims ....I think people brought up in the Muslim faith may be as much " victims " of the religion as others...it stops questioning etc, I think the word means " Surrender". IMO Iranians seemed happier and freer before the Ayotollah came along. I don't think there is anything wrong with grappling with theology...to me it simply means trying to understand and make meaning of our short stay on earth and trying to understand others....after all most societies have had religious beliefs, giving them identity, morality and cohesion....not necessarily a good thing. Believe it or not I have read the Quran and parts of the New Testament in the Greek, the idea was to understand the meaning of words in the original text....Personally I think it is ridiculous calling Jesus "Lord" I find the New Testament " story" easier to understand and the moral stories clearer.....May be because I am a Westerner, but I honestly believe that Islam was simply invented yo TRUMP Judaism and Christianity ie it encompasses the prophets, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, relegated Jesus to a prophet( which is contradictory to the New Testament) but embraces the Judaea -Christian tradition , triumphantly proclaiming Muhammed as the greatest and last prophet....we have seen the tension between Islam and the West ever since. I don’t believe in being judgemental so would agree with your grandad.....except Jesus himself wasn't tolerant of everything....in fact it was his criticism of the Jewish elders, particularly their hypocrisy, his anger in overturning of the money changers' tables at the Temple that resulted in his crucifixion.....the point in the Good Samaritan story was that the true friend of the person who had " fell amongst thieves" wasn't the Jewish leaders but the Samaritan, the traditional enemy of the Jews. It reminds me of a Modern day equivalent. I have a friend who tells the story of his grandad. Lived in Nottingham, in the 1960s, an open self declared racist...." I hate blacks". He was driving through St Anne's in Nottingham when he saw a big black lady with shopping fall down at a bus stop. He stopped the car, couldn't do enough for her, drove her home. My friend, 8ish at the time said " I thought you hated blacks?".... Son , she's only human, you can't leave anybody like that if they need help....... I think he didn't actually like the unknown and what he saw as a threat to his way of life. The complexities of humanity, eh! Everyone should read Art Spiegelman's brilliant book told in comic-like art form, MAUS, which is a story told by him about his father Vladek's survival of the holocaust and their life together afterwards. There's one part in the story later on when Art reveals that despite what he'd been through in the concentration camps, Vladek shows himself to be racist. That's humanity for us. I would think, to a degree, we all possess these eccentricities in our psychological makeup. I know I do, but I keep mine private. That's often the best way of accepting our own flaws... live with them and accept that we're not perfect. OS. |
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