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Post by pb1863 on Feb 27, 2024 4:26:30 GMT
A team needs to be picked that isn’t going to lose. Winning is a bonus.
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Post by potterrotter on Feb 27, 2024 4:36:32 GMT
Their both scousers. Let's hope the wheels don't come off 🤣
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Post by rickyfullerbeer on Feb 27, 2024 4:56:20 GMT
How the fuck have we got to this point?
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Post by alsagerstoke on Feb 27, 2024 6:08:15 GMT
I am a manager at work, if my boss got someone in above me and he gave a speech to my guys directly about pulling together and trying to motivate them....i know my job would be coming to an end either by me walking or by them pulling the trigger, i would understand the owner making a speech but a guy who they have just brought in...yuck
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Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2024 6:51:06 GMT
So we have a comparatively wet behind the ears and a temporary appointment in Walters issuing a call to arms, essentially bollocking everyone over and above the manager's authority?
Reminds me of Barry Fry doing it over Steve Bleasedale in the TV series "Big Ron Manager" at Peterbrough all those years ago.
Sounds like complete chaos to me.
Talk about removing all of the power from your manager.
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Post by CBUFAWKIPWH on Feb 27, 2024 7:26:45 GMT
So we have a comparatively wet behind the ears and a temporary appointment in Walters issuing a call to arms, essentially bollocking everyone over and above the manager's authority? Reminds me of Barry Fry doing it over Steve Bleasedale in the TV series "Big Ron Manager" at Peterbrough all those years ago. Sounds like complete chaos to me. Talk about removing all of the power from your manager. Schumacher isn't the manager - he's the Head Coach. To be fair if the previous Technical Director created a toxic atmosphere the new one has to do something to address it. If Walters just remains invisible the bad atmosphere will just linger and he won't be doing what he was brought in to do. I'm not entirely certain how we have defined the role of Technical Director. I think Martin was hands off in terms of footballing matters because I can't see Neil wanting that sort of Technical Director and it was Neil who brought him in. If the club have redefined the role to give it responsibility for footballing matters it is entirely appropriate that Walters asserts his authority. It also means Walters has to distance himself from Schumacher and be prepared to sack if he thinks he isn't the man to keep us up. My experience of interim appointees brought in at the top of an organisation is that they are there to do a hatchet job, take the flak and leave it to the permanent appointment to bed things in - which is hardly conducive to a good atmosphere. Having said that I do agree it sounds like complete chaos. |
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Post by benjaminbiscuit on Feb 27, 2024 8:11:06 GMT
So we have a comparatively wet behind the ears and a temporary appointment in Walters issuing a call to arms, essentially bollocking everyone over and above the manager's authority? Reminds me of Barry Fry doing it over Steve Bleasedale in the TV series "Big Ron Manager" at Peterbrough all those years ago. Sounds like complete chaos to me. Talk about removing all of the power from your manager. Its hard to tell whats going on and without being there what was said but agree it’s got the script for whose in charge ? Why now ? Who do we listen to ? Why dont you talk to eh manager who keeps making these bizarre changes and formations .Most important later on why should We listen to you as the new blokes in charge now . SJW was alswssy going to want to make a mark he was more subtle as footballer than people gave ho hm credit for but his DNA was hard work , aggression and physicality so you’d expect him to approach this job in the same manner . Outcome will be clear on saturday as these players don’t need a big reason to appear confused , and SS clearly going to be here then now . |
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Post by SCFC92 on Feb 27, 2024 8:58:39 GMT
So we have a comparatively wet behind the ears and a temporary appointment in Walters issuing a call to arms, essentially bollocking everyone over and above the manager's authority? Reminds me of Barry Fry doing it over Steve Bleasedale in the TV series "Big Ron Manager" at Peterbrough all those years ago. Sounds like complete chaos to me. Talk about removing all of the power from your manager. This is the difference with this set up. Officially SS reports into SJW in our current set up. So has greater authority than SS in the "running of the club." Almost SS being a Managing Director and SJW being the CEO. It "looks and feels" odd because of the inexperience of SJW, but officially this is common practice with our set up. The issue we have is the club has been turned into a sideshow version of a corporate company which is not how football works, it is so much more nuanced, but that is the issue you have when you recruit a 5 pillars of bullshit Technical Director in Ricky Martin. We do need a model where changing the manager doesn't change the overall club, however, as per usual, John Coates has gone about it wrong. I want the Coates family to stay as chairpeople, but please, get some footballing people in who can run the club on your behalf. Overall I can only see good in this, Sentinel will be hamming it all up a little for clicks, but ultimately it is SJW and SS at the top with a call to arms for the players. I'm glad we have SJW in the building giving it all he can. If we can get even a smidge of his commitment into our rabble of football players we will stay up this season. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2024 9:22:22 GMT
So we have a comparatively wet behind the ears and a temporary appointment in Walters issuing a call to arms, essentially bollocking everyone over and above the manager's authority? Reminds me of Barry Fry doing it over Steve Bleasedale in the TV series "Big Ron Manager" at Peterbrough all those years ago. Sounds like complete chaos to me. Talk about removing all of the power from your manager. This is the difference with this set up. Officially SS reports into SJW in our current set up. So has greater authority than SS in the "running of the club." Almost SS being a Managing Director and SJW being the CEO. It "looks and feels" odd because of the inexperience of SJW, but officially this is common practice with our set up. The issue we have is the club has been turned into a sideshow version of a corporate company which is not how football works, it is so much more nuanced, but that is the issue you have when you recruit a 5 pillars of bullshit Technical Director in Ricky Martin. We do need a model where changing the manager doesn't change the overall club, however, as per usual, John Coates has gone about it wrong. I want the Coates family to stay as chairpeople, but please, get some footballing people in who can run the club on your behalf. Overall I can only see good in this, Sentinel will be hamming it all up a little for clicks, but ultimately it is SJW and SS at the top with a call to arms for the players. I'm glad we have SJW in the building giving it all he can. If we can get even a smidge of his commitment into our rabble of football players we will stay up this season. I get all that but the key part of this is the club have already announced that Walters is just a temporary placeholder in the role whilst they look for a replacement. It's a watered down version of announcing a short term manager, which mainly fails as the players don't listen to him knowing he'll be out of the door in X weeks/months. Here we have someone sat above the manager and will be here for an even shorter amount of weeks arranging meetings that coukd well potentially weaken the managers position even further. It might well be done with good intentions and it might well be 100% positive from Walters but just this mechanism in itself is undermining the 'Head Coach' IMO. There are players in that dressing room that won't know who the hell Jon Walters is, will look at his age and profile, coupled with his temporary status in the job and will stick two fingers up to him and it and carry on regardless. |
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Post by Northy on Feb 27, 2024 9:24:35 GMT
So we have a comparatively wet behind the ears and a temporary appointment in Walters issuing a call to arms, essentially bollocking everyone over and above the manager's authority? Reminds me of Barry Fry doing it over Steve Bleasedale in the TV series "Big Ron Manager" at Peterbrough all those years ago. Sounds like complete chaos to me. Talk about removing all of the power from your manager. Schumacher isn't the manager - he's the Head Coach. To be fair if the previous Technical Director created a toxic atmosphere the new one has to do something to address it. If Walters just remains invisible the bad atmosphere will just linger and he won't be doing what he was brought in to do. I'm not entirely certain how we have defined the role of Technical Director. I think Martin was hands off in terms of footballing matters because I can't see Neil wanting that sort of Technical Director and it was Neil who brought him in. If the club have redefined the role to give it responsibility for footballing matters it is entirely appropriate that Walters asserts his authority. It also means Walters has to distance himself from Schumacher and be prepared to sack if he thinks he isn't the man to keep us up. My experience of interim appointees brought in at the top of an organisation is that they are there to do a hatchet job, take the flak and leave it to the permanent appointment to bed things in - which is hardly conducive to a good atmosphere. Having said that I do agree it sounds like complete chaos. It's only like a new captain joining a ship, he'll clear lower decks for an introduction of himself and set his goals out of how he wants the ship to run, it lets everyone hear it from the horses mouth and stop whispers and rumours from staff from the lower decks, best way to do it in my opinion, it stops the rumours which cause the chaos. |
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Post by CBUFAWKIPWH on Feb 27, 2024 9:37:25 GMT
This is the difference with this set up. Officially SS reports into SJW in our current set up. So has greater authority than SS in the "running of the club." Almost SS being a Managing Director and SJW being the CEO. It "looks and feels" odd because of the inexperience of SJW, but officially this is common practice with our set up. The issue we have is the club has been turned into a sideshow version of a corporate company which is not how football works, it is so much more nuanced, but that is the issue you have when you recruit a 5 pillars of bullshit Technical Director in Ricky Martin. We do need a model where changing the manager doesn't change the overall club, however, as per usual, John Coates has gone about it wrong. I want the Coates family to stay as chairpeople, but please, get some footballing people in who can run the club on your behalf. Overall I can only see good in this, Sentinel will be hamming it all up a little for clicks, but ultimately it is SJW and SS at the top with a call to arms for the players. I'm glad we have SJW in the building giving it all he can. If we can get even a smidge of his commitment into our rabble of football players we will stay up this season. I get all that but the key part of this is the club have already announced that Walters is just a temporary placeholder in the role whilst they look for a replacement. It's a watered down version of announcing a short term manager, which mainly fails as the players don't listen to him knowing he'll be out of the door in X weeks/months. Here we have someone sat above the manager and will be here for an even shorter amount of weeks arranging meetings that coukd well potentially weaken the managers position even further. It might well be done with good intentions and it might well be 100% positive from Walters but just this mechanism in itself is undermining the 'Head Coach' IMO. There are players in that dressing room that won't know who the hell Jon Walters is, will look at his age and profile, coupled with his temporary status in the job and will stick two fingers up to him and it and carry on regardless. The reality is if the club wants a Technical Director with hands on responsibility for footballing matters the role of the Head Coach by definition is weaker. That is a feature of that model - if that is what Walters has been given as a job description he has to assert his authority and the Head Coach has to buy into it or leave. You can argue that you prefer the Head Coach to be more like an old school manager but you can't blame Walters for doing his job. If you don't like that model blame John Coates because he'd the one who defined the job. If Schumacher feels undermined by what Walters is doing and Walters is doing what it says in his job description then Schumacher should go. You can't have the Head Coach questioning or undermining the Technical Director. |
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Post by stiggerstackle on Feb 27, 2024 9:44:45 GMT
Absolutely no point getting SJW in to stare at spreadsheets - surely this is exactly what we want?
One of the criticisms levelled at SS is that the players don't look up to him as he's achieved nothing in the game - well SJW has played at a higher level than any of them and should be somebody they aspire to be. A SJW / SS dream team is what we need, he has to get involved, if he lurks in the background it's pointless.
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Post by ravey123 on Feb 27, 2024 9:48:48 GMT
What else could JW do. If he joins and says nothing or goes about it in a slow subtle way time will run out so it’s a pointless appointment.
We are at a point where subtlety needs to go out of the window and direct action is needed.
Yeah, SS may not like this - who knows - he may be in agreement with this course of action. All depends on his take on it.
I know if it was me and my team were failing at work i would not be “put out” if someone came in and gave a rallying cry to my team - im not precious - just want my team to perform.
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Post by Gods on Feb 27, 2024 9:55:11 GMT
What was SJW doing before he came in to this role?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2024 9:56:43 GMT
I get all that but the key part of this is the club have already announced that Walters is just a temporary placeholder in the role whilst they look for a replacement. It's a watered down version of announcing a short term manager, which mainly fails as the players don't listen to him knowing he'll be out of the door in X weeks/months. Here we have someone sat above the manager and will be here for an even shorter amount of weeks arranging meetings that coukd well potentially weaken the managers position even further. It might well be done with good intentions and it might well be 100% positive from Walters but just this mechanism in itself is undermining the 'Head Coach' IMO. There are players in that dressing room that won't know who the hell Jon Walters is, will look at his age and profile, coupled with his temporary status in the job and will stick two fingers up to him and it and carry on regardless. The reality is if the club wants a Technical Director with hands on responsibility for footballing matters the role of the Head Coach by definition is weaker. That is a feature of that model - if that is what Walters has been given as a job description he has to assert his authority and the Head Coach has to buy into it or leave. You can argue that you prefer the Head Coach to be more like an old school manager but you can't blame Walters for doing his job. If you don't like that model blame John Coates because he'd the one who defined the job. If Schumacher feels undermined by what Walters is doing and Walters is doing what it says in his job description then Schumacher should go. You can't have the Head Coach questioning or undermining the Technical Director. I like the modern structure and have actively called for it, but there is far too much evidence that we are operating a mumbo jumbo version of it where the manager still has his fingerprints all over certain parts of the process. The last two 'head coaches' still clearly have too much say in recruitment. They still have too much say in who is in the coaching staff and sport science department. The last one even picked his own DOF. A proper structure/model has club staff in all positions except the head coach and a maximum of two support staff for the incoming coach, hence reducing cost and upheaval when a change of coach is made. Add into the mix now a temporary placeholder in the DOF role creating meetings with staff. So no I don't have an issue with the model. I have an issue with how we have and continue to operate it. |
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Post by Squeekster on Feb 27, 2024 9:58:12 GMT
Wonder if Mmaee was there ? …. no, he was late then spent the rest of the meeting sitting on the naughty step Doing back flips. |
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Post by owdestokie2 on Feb 27, 2024 10:05:28 GMT
I get all that but the key part of this is the club have already announced that Walters is just a temporary placeholder in the role whilst they look for a replacement. It's a watered down version of announcing a short term manager, which mainly fails as the players don't listen to him knowing he'll be out of the door in X weeks/months. Here we have someone sat above the manager and will be here for an even shorter amount of weeks arranging meetings that coukd well potentially weaken the managers position even further. It might well be done with good intentions and it might well be 100% positive from Walters but just this mechanism in itself is undermining the 'Head Coach' IMO. There are players in that dressing room that won't know who the hell Jon Walters is, will look at his age and profile, coupled with his temporary status in the job and will stick two fingers up to him and it and carry on regardless. The reality is if the club wants a Technical Director with hands on responsibility for footballing matters the role of the Head Coach by definition is weaker. That is a feature of that model - if that is what Walters has been given as a job description he has to assert his authority and the Head Coach has to buy into it or leave. You can argue that you prefer the Head Coach to be more like an old school manager but you can't blame Walters for doing his job. If you don't like that model blame John Coates because he'd the one who defined the job. If Schumacher feels undermined by what Walters is doing and Walters is doing what it says in his job description then Schumacher should go. You can't have the Head Coach questioning or undermining the Technical Director. Valid Points 👍 I doubt whether there’s a poster on this subject has any factual evidence in relation to; - The extent of SJW’s role - Was SS involved in any pre-appointment talks? - How many times have SJW and SS (inc JC) met to discuss what’s needed (acceptable) in the short term With 12 games to go and the threat of relegation on the horizon there’s no time for internal politics/personal postering. If there is at this critical stage I don’t want to see any such individuals employed by the Club. Additionally people forget that recruitment/general planning (I.e pre-season training) is ongoing and other than gaining individuals thoughts etc the club can’t simply stop functioning until May |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2024 10:06:00 GMT
So we have a comparatively wet behind the ears and a temporary appointment in Walters issuing a call to arms, essentially bollocking everyone over and above the manager's authority? Reminds me of Barry Fry doing it over Steve Bleasedale in the TV series "Big Ron Manager" at Peterbrough all those years ago. Sounds like complete chaos to me. Talk about removing all of the power from your manager. This isn't a Barry Fry situation. Surely the job of TD is to cut across different roles and communicate in this way with all staff?I don't see how it undermines a head coach. The TD has to be involved in first team matters so there is continuity |
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Post by Clayton Wood on Feb 27, 2024 10:06:24 GMT
I wonder if the interim bit comes from SJW's side? Has a loyal connection to the club and will help out until the end of the season but has other stuff lined up?
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Post by gingerninja on Feb 27, 2024 10:16:17 GMT
Would possibly help, if JW did an interview and explained what is actual role is at present and moving forward?
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Post by nottsover60 on Feb 27, 2024 11:06:54 GMT
I thought it was excellent news. Jon Walters. Is more senior than Schumacher even though he is a new appointment. As an ex teacher I always think about how it works in school and a head teacher will often hold assemblies where children are reminded of what the school expects in terms of discipline, respect for others especially adults, and work ethics.
I see Walter's speech as something along those lines: "I am new here and just telling you what I expect to see from you. I back the coach, we work together and there is no point coming to me to moan about him." I am sure he'd had a word with Schumacher about his intentions. As I understand it he delivered a similar sort of talk to non playing staff the following day.
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Post by jokker on Feb 27, 2024 11:20:27 GMT
You can just imagine the players sitting there, not giving a shit. can but apart from Pearson, Campbell, and Mmaee, they wouldn't. They care enough but they just don't have the ability as a team to do better. |
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Post by SCFC92 on Feb 27, 2024 11:26:50 GMT
The reality is if the club wants a Technical Director with hands on responsibility for footballing matters the role of the Head Coach by definition is weaker. That is a feature of that model - if that is what Walters has been given as a job description he has to assert his authority and the Head Coach has to buy into it or leave. You can argue that you prefer the Head Coach to be more like an old school manager but you can't blame Walters for doing his job. If you don't like that model blame John Coates because he'd the one who defined the job. If Schumacher feels undermined by what Walters is doing and Walters is doing what it says in his job description then Schumacher should go. You can't have the Head Coach questioning or undermining the Technical Director. I like the modern structure and have actively called for it, but there is far too much evidence that we are operating a mumbo jumbo version of it where the manager still has his fingerprints all over certain parts of the process. The last two 'head coaches' still clearly have too much say in recruitment. They still have too much say in who is in the coaching staff and sport science department. The last one even picked his own DOF. A proper structure/model has club staff in all positions except the head coach and a maximum of two support staff for the incoming coach, hence reducing cost and upheaval when a change of coach is made. Add into the mix now a temporary placeholder in the DOF role creating meetings with staff. So no I don't have an issue with the model. I have an issue with how we have and continue to operate it. I think the first sentence sums it up perfectly. The model should work, but we have managed to completely fudge the entire thing (hardly surprising) Our current perilous position has made us pull some emergency levers, with another still open (sacking SS, even though I do not want to see this at all). My hope and expectation is SJW will support SS from his position rather than "manage." And be a figurehead for the whole club pulling its head out of its arse and getting on with stopping what feels like the inevitable drop into the abyss. Once we get to summer, YET AGAIN, there is a big rethink needed, but if we do manage to stay up, John Coates MUST bring in the correct version of this model and stop relying on his mates giving him advice as it has been woeful up to now. |
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Post by jokker on Feb 27, 2024 11:28:14 GMT
I thought it was excellent news. Jon Walters. Is more senior than Schumacher even though he is a new appointment. As an ex teacher I always think about how it works in school and a head teacher will often hold assemblies where children are reminded of what the school expects in terms of discipline, respect for others especially adults, and work ethics. I see Walter's speech as something along those lines: "I am new here and just telling you what I expect to see from you. I back the coach, we work together and there is no point coming to me to moan about him." I am sure he'd had a word with Schumacher about his intentions. As I understand it delivered a similar sort of talk to non playing staff the following day. I don't think SJW would start by saying he's 'new here'. Part of his justification for being in the job is that he's got the Stoke dna which all the new players are lacking. He might even tell the players about how Pulis was able to get a bunch of near nobodies to function as a team where everybody played for each other and the team became the star. He was part of that and knows (hopefully) how to be transmitting that spirit to them. Just don't ask them to play Pulisball, thank you. |
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Post by owdestokie2 on Feb 27, 2024 11:34:47 GMT
I thought it was excellent news. Jon Walters. Is more senior than Schumacher even though he is a new appointment. As an ex teacher I always think about how it works in school and a head teacher will often hold assemblies where children are reminded of what the school expects in terms of discipline, respect for others especially adults, and work ethics. I see Walter's speech as something along those lines: "I am new here and just telling you what I expect to see from you. I back the coach, we work together and there is no point coming to me to moan about him." I am sure he'd had a word with Schumacher about his intentions. As I understand it delivered a similar sort of talk to non playing staff the following day. I don't think SJW would start by saying he's 'new here'. Part of his justification for being in the job is that he's got the Stoke dna which all the new players are lacking. He might even tell the players about how Pulis was able to get a bunch of near nobodies to function as a team where everybody played for each other and the team became the star. He was part of that and knows (hopefully) how to be transmitting that spirit to them. Just don't ask them to play Pulisball, thank you. A good post…….until the last line (a style they couldn’t play anyway) but Puliball as you call it was successful. |
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Post by milky on Feb 27, 2024 12:39:22 GMT
Even now some folk still talk about the Vince Overson rallying call at the beginning of the 95/96 season when we had disruptive wasters like Keith Scott.
If I'm reading the timeline right I think we went on to finish 4th and in the play offs.
It would be something if Walters could be seen as the modern day Big Vince though maybe it's too late with most of this lot ?
One things for certain, by 5pm on Saturday we will have a good idea if it had any effect.
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Post by Maccasbarmyarmy on Feb 27, 2024 12:49:02 GMT
Would not surprise me if he picks the side come Saturday we are a horror show an Jc is at the front of it sad times
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Post by Gob Bluth on Feb 27, 2024 13:36:37 GMT
Very worried about this. Love SJW, backed him al the way through his time at Stoke but this is such a different role.
If it’s to meet potential signings and check they’ve got the right attitude I’m ok. Setting scouting strategy and validating data would be more of a concern unless he’s gained some severe skills while he’s been away. I’d actually take a Bet365 employee/board member over a former player for this role.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2024 13:38:01 GMT
There's literally, nothing to see here. Walters has come in, placed above Schumacher in the hierarchy, and has chaired a meeting off staff, to (let's assume), in no uncertain terms set out his expectations for the remainder of the season.
It happens in business all the time. In fact, I recall my now-boss doing exactly this, in 2018 when he arrived. Did I feel put-out by it, as a Senior Manager? No, I felt supported & backed.
Oh, and I still in my job 6 years later. Believe it or not, his arrival didn't lay the path for my dismissal.
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Post by nottsover60 on Feb 27, 2024 13:47:58 GMT
I thought it was excellent news. Jon Walters. Is more senior than Schumacher even though he is a new appointment. As an ex teacher I always think about how it works in school and a head teacher will often hold assemblies where children are reminded of what the school expects in terms of discipline, respect for others especially adults, and work ethics. I see Walter's speech as something along those lines: "I am new here and just telling you what I expect to see from you. I back the coach, we work together and there is no point coming to me to moan about him." I am sure he'd had a word with Schumacher about his intentions. As I understand it delivered a similar sort of talk to non playing staff the following day. I don't think SJW would start by saying he's 'new here'. Part of his justification for being in the job is that he's got the Stoke dna which all the new players are lacking. He might even tell the players about how Pulis was able to get a bunch of near nobodies to function as a team where everybody played for each other and the team became the star. He was part of that and knows (hopefully) how to be transmitting that spirit to them. Just don't ask them to play Pulisball, thank you. Probably should have said new to this position but you are right I'm sure he was keen to tell them how a bunch of misfits had managed to upset Arsene Wenger and co in the Premier, get to a cup final and how loud the ground had been so that instead of dreading playing at home the team had been lifted by the fans and playing in front of them had been one of the best experiences he'd had. If it had been me I would have started by playing a long clip of the crowd from those days, shown the a video of Arsene Wenger at the ground and was it Gomez? the Spurs gk crying. |
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