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Post by CBUFAWKIPWH on Feb 23, 2024 12:35:12 GMT
We now have two people with relatively little experience doing probably the two most responsible jobs at the club. The role where experience is really important is Technical Director/DoF - especially when the Head Coach is relatively inexperienced. I'm not saying it won't work and I wish SJW and Schumacher well but being realistic this is a very high risk decision. How is appointing Jon Walters for 3 months very high risk? The club has stated that the recruitment process has started. 1 No-one can properly fulfil the role of Technical Director on an interim basis. They won't have the time to do anything significant and anything they do is likely to be pulled apart by the permeant appointment. In effect the role of Technical Director in it's true sense has been parked and the club is operating with no one in charge of strategic direction. The club is temporarily rudderless. 2 Schumacher is an inexperienced Head Coach Manager and Walters is an inexperienced Technical Director. Going with one inexperienced person in those roles is risky, the riskiest role to give to someone who is inexperienced is Technical Director and having an inexperienced Technical Director there to support an inexperienced Head Coach is just about the riskiest thing any club could do. 3 Putting a Head Coach in as temporary fix is fine as they can have a short term impact. Technical Directors do not usually have a short impact but their work isn't realised in the short term. If you have an immediate problem you don't solve it by changing your Technical Director. If Martin has created a toxic environment then bringing in Walters on a short term basis to heal wounds is understandable. But to believe it's actually not a risky appointment is to wear some spectacularly rose tinted glasses. |
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Post by CBUFAWKIPWH on Feb 23, 2024 12:40:09 GMT
Neil didn't demand more control when he joined us. He joined us because we operated a god manager structure and that's what Neil wanted. It was Neil who brought in Martin which on the face of it doesn't make sense. I can only assume that the actual expectations of the "god manager" role at Stoke were ridiculous and Neil recognised he needed someone like Martin to take on the non-footballing stuff. It doesn't make sense that he brought in someone who would make him play second fiddle when he expressly came in to be lead. I really don't subscribe to the idea that the Technical Director/DoF is the kingpin and the Manger/Head Coach is their lackey and I can't see any self respecting Manager/Head Coach (including Schumacher) putting up with that. It seems to me that when Neil left Martin tried to expand his role that way and Schumacher (quite rightly) kicked back. Seeing the structure in terms of a linear hierarchy with the Technical Director/DoF at the top of the pile strikes me as wrong. I see it more as a team with each of the key members of the team having the last say on their area of responsibility. So Schumacher has final say on the style of football and the type of players he needs with Walters having final say on whether the club can afford the players identified and whether the age and future market value of the squad is financially viable. You need good team players to make this work - not a bunch of individualistic egotists trying to be top dog. Hopefully Walters and Schumacher can recognise the limits of their remit, respect each other's boundaries and work togther for the good of the club rather than the good of themselves. I agree with this. However, I think it’s also up to the idea of the Technical Director to set the long term vision of the club up, including the type of football that they want them to player and the general age (for example) of the signings that they want. It’s up to that director to then employ a head coach that is then in-line with that particular vision and to give them as much resources as they can to implement it. If they fail, they then need to find another head coach who believes in the same vision. I agree they have a remit to ensure the squad has an appropriate age profile because that is something that affects the financial viability of the club which is very much in the remit of the Technical Director. However I disagree entirely that the Technical Director should determine the style of football - for me that is up to the Head Coach. The Technical Director leads on non footballing matters and the Head Coach leads on footballing matters. If the club adopts your model Schumacher will walk. |
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Post by Pugsley on Feb 23, 2024 12:46:39 GMT
I agree with this. However, I think it’s also up to the idea of the Technical Director to set the long term vision of the club up, including the type of football that they want them to player and the general age (for example) of the signings that they want. It’s up to that director to then employ a head coach that is then in-line with that particular vision and to give them as much resources as they can to implement it. If they fail, they then need to find another head coach who believes in the same vision. I agree they have a remit to ensure the squad has an appropriate age profile because that is something that affects the financial viability of the club which is very much in the remit of the Technical Director. However I disagree entirely that the Technical Director should determine the style of football - for me that is up to the Head Coach. The Technical Director leads on non footballing matters and the Head Coach leads on footballing matters. If the club adopts your model Schumacher will walk. In what way does the TD not lead on footballing matters other than the day to day coaching? |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2024 12:50:25 GMT
I agree with this. However, I think it’s also up to the idea of the Technical Director to set the long term vision of the club up, including the type of football that they want them to player and the general age (for example) of the signings that they want. It’s up to that director to then employ a head coach that is then in-line with that particular vision and to give them as much resources as they can to implement it. If they fail, they then need to find another head coach who believes in the same vision. I agree they have a remit to ensure the squad has an appropriate age profile because that is something that affects the financial viability of the club which is very much in the remit of the Technical Director. However I disagree entirely that the Technical Director should determine the style of football - for me that is up to the Head Coach. The Technical Director leads on non footballing matters and the Head Coach leads on footballing matters. If the club adopts your model Schumacher will walk. I perhaps should make myself more clear. I thought that the general concept of having a director in was to ensure a long-term vision. You simply cannot do that if you do not build upon what is already there. I despised RM’s scorched earth policy for this very reason. In my opinion, a director should be hired by a chairman because they believe in a way to run the club that appeals to the chairman. That director says, for example, we should recruit managers who have a strong preference for attacking football and who mostly play formation A. They then go and do that. At that point, they largely leave the manager alone other than providing resources and having an important say in the signings. The director doesn’t need to get in the manager’s way because he’s hired someone who is aligned with the club structure. When that manager fails, he’s sacked and replaced with someone who is also aligned to that structure. This saves the club from bringing in 10-11 new players every year (or is supposed to). |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2024 12:55:43 GMT
I agree with this. However, I think it’s also up to the idea of the Technical Director to set the long term vision of the club up, including the type of football that they want them to player and the general age (for example) of the signings that they want. It’s up to that director to then employ a head coach that is then in-line with that particular vision and to give them as much resources as they can to implement it. If they fail, they then need to find another head coach who believes in the same vision. I agree they have a remit to ensure the squad has an appropriate age profile because that is something that affects the financial viability of the club which is very much in the remit of the Technical Director. However I disagree entirely that the Technical Director should determine the style of football - for me that is up to the Head Coach. The Technical Director leads on non footballing matters and the Head Coach leads on footballing matters. If the club adopts your model Schumacher will walk. the technical director DOES lead, and has a final say on transfers, along with the head coach and i assume anyone else with executive decision making powers, jc i assume. And Walters WILL have a lot to do the next few months. He will liaise between the transfer team (Dublin and his scouts) and the manager to formulate two strategies in the transfer market and pulling together targets. One strategy for the championship, one for league 1 unfortunately. That's what he'll spend most his time doing and I'm sure he can crack on with that straight away. As for day to day involvement, I'd hope the td plays a strong role as a link between coaching team, executive board, transfer team etc and is important in communicating standards to all concerned and reviewing performance data with coaching staff. I can't see how the TD wouldn't have some input into the decisions the head coach makes, albeit it's for the head coach to make final decisions on team selection and in game tactics |
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Post by stokief on Feb 23, 2024 12:58:37 GMT
I think we may, in true Oatie style be over-analysing and complicating this. We are in a cr@p position, something had to give. This bloke who Sir Tone couldn't even name( course he knew his name, just didn't want to give him any importance) on the radio the other day has obviously ruffled enough feathers to be sacked. This is not the time to be replacing him with a mate of SS as quite frankly, we don't know how long he'll be with us like Neil and his bud, Livin' la vida Stoka. I think we can do without constantly taking on someone's friends. We need a 'neutral' . Now, for all we know, we have someone waiting in the wings doing stuff behind the scenes BUT as many of us seem to feel, SJW is here to try to galvanize things.Maybe build bridges between fans and the players. As Skip said in a previous post, someone for SS to bounce ideas off and confide in, an extra pair of ears and eyes around the place. Plus, for all we know, SJW may well be a good candidate for the permanent role. Who, of any decent reputation would join us at this stage?! It really is simply and purely about staying up this season and I don't think some experienced TD would want to take on the position at this moment in time. Let's just get behind whatever it is they're trying and ride the wave, and hopefully, survive the storm!
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Post by skip on Feb 23, 2024 12:59:22 GMT
Way more experienced personnel have made made an absolute pig's c*** of things so far this last few seasons, so I'm more than happy for Schumacher and Walters to be in charge. For now at least. Was RM ever “experienced”? Certainly, more than JW, yes. However, he wasn’t that experienced. Experienced staff make mistakes due to incompetence. Inexperienced staff make mistakes due to incompetence and lack of experience. There’s always a learning curve and they always come with mistakes. In my opinion, the best structure is one that offers a mixture between proven, previous success and youthful determination + new ideas. One without the other doesn’t seem like the best long term strategy. Don't dispute any of that but my point from just above in this thread remains - John Walters can only help offer a pragmatic no-nonsense sounding board to Schumacher between now and the end of the season. |
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Post by skip on Feb 23, 2024 13:01:37 GMT
I think we may, in true Oatie style be over-analysing and complicating this. We are in a cr@p position, something had to give. This bloke who Sir Tone couldn't even name( course he knew his name, just didn't want to give him any importance) on the radio the other day has obviously ruffled enough feathers to be sacked. This is not the time to be replacing him with a mate of SS as quite frankly, we don't know how long he'll be with us like Neil and his bud, Livin' la vida Stoka. I think we can do without constantly taking on someone's friends. We need a 'neutral' . Now, for all we know, we have someone waiting in the wings doing stuff behind the scenes BUT as many of us seem to feel, SJW is here to try to galvanize things.Maybe build bridges between fans and the players. As Skip said in a previous post, someone for SS to bounce ideas off and confide in, an extra pair of ears and eyes around the place. Plus, for all we know, SJW may well be a good candidate for the permanent role. Who, of any decent reputation would join us at this stage?! It really is simply and purely about staying up this season and I don't think some experienced TD would want to take on the position at this moment in time. Let's just get behind whatever it is they're trying and ride the wave, and hopefully, survive the storm! That's all there is to it. Ricky Martin has been sacked, thank God, and Walters brought in to help Schumacher until the end of the season. We just need to win half a dozen games and someone of the calibre of Walters being involved is only a good thing. |
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Post by FullerMagic on Feb 23, 2024 13:01:54 GMT
How are we in a worse position than Wednesday though?
We had a Technical Director who clearly senior leadership had zero faith in, who was making mistake after mistake, who virtually nobody around the club liked, and was becoming a lightning rod for all the ills of the club.
Walters will probably only be in place until April or May, and is unlikely to leave much of a footprint on things, for good or ill.
At the very least, he's a smart bloke who's been around football for 25 years and played at the very top, who has the qualifications.
He'll be of more use to Schumacher than Martin as a sounding board, even if that's all he proves to be.
There are still some clubs at our level who operate successfully with nobody with Martin's job title, or over-arching responsibilities - like Coventry and Hull
We can't produce an experienced long-term replacement overnight.
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Post by CBUFAWKIPWH on Feb 23, 2024 13:03:23 GMT
I agree they have a remit to ensure the squad has an appropriate age profile because that is something that affects the financial viability of the club which is very much in the remit of the Technical Director. However I disagree entirely that the Technical Director should determine the style of football - for me that is up to the Head Coach. The Technical Director leads on non footballing matters and the Head Coach leads on footballing matters. If the club adopts your model Schumacher will walk. In what way does the TD not lead on footballing matters other than the day to day coaching? The TD does not decide on the style of play, formation, type of player required for each position on the pitch, squad rotation and the only say they have on transfers is in terms of the financial position of the club. Do you actually believe Ricky Martin (a man with no coaching badges and no experience of playing football) did any of those things under Neil or Schumacher? He was a senior/middle manager. And do you really think SJW has been brought in to lead on what goes on the pitch? If that's happening to all intent and purpose we've sacked what used to be called the manager, effectively demoted Schumacher and given the role of leading on footballing matter to someone with less experience than Schumacher. That really would be insane. |
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Post by skip on Feb 23, 2024 13:03:29 GMT
All that matters in the immediate term is to avoid relegation. We can concern ourselves with future ambition and direction after we've not gone down a league. Obviously! So why fill the position at all. Or is he being appointed as head cheerleader? Ricky Martin leaves a gap/salary. Give some of that responsibility and salary to John Walters to help Schumacher avoid relegation. It's clearly a temporary fill, but at least he's someone who doesn't communicate through the medium of bullshit and riddles. |
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Post by dirtygary69 on Feb 23, 2024 13:15:59 GMT
How are we in a worse position than Wednesday though? We had a Technical Director who clearly senior leadership had zero faith in, who was making mistake after mistake, who virtually nobody around the club liked, and was becoming a lightning rod for all the ills of the club. Walters will probably only be in place until April or May, and is unlikely to leave much of a footprint on things, for good or ill. At the very least, he's a smart bloke who's been around football for 25 years and played at the very top, who has the qualifications. He'll be of more use to Schumacher than Martin as a sounding board, even if that's all he proves to be. There are still some clubs at our level who operate successfully with nobody with Martin's job title, or over-arching responsibilities - like Coventry and Hull We can't produce an experienced long-term replacement overnight. I think this is an area we have to be careful with. I've seen Brighton and Brentford mentioned on previous pages and their model is obviously working for them very well, however, everything is cyclical. If we try to "copy" that now, we're years behind the curve. If we poach AN other from another club (Dewsnip et al), we are again basically using someone else's ideas. We need to make sure that we have a clear vision, that doesn't necessarily mean having to copy everyone else. |
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Post by Mr_DaftBurger on Feb 23, 2024 13:19:55 GMT
What's the story of SJW's time at Fleetwood and the Irish team?
The fact JC said he was coming to help may indicate he doesn't want it long term?
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Post by CBUFAWKIPWH on Feb 23, 2024 13:20:42 GMT
I agree they have a remit to ensure the squad has an appropriate age profile because that is something that affects the financial viability of the club which is very much in the remit of the Technical Director. However I disagree entirely that the Technical Director should determine the style of football - for me that is up to the Head Coach. The Technical Director leads on non footballing matters and the Head Coach leads on footballing matters. If the club adopts your model Schumacher will walk. I perhaps should make myself more clear. I thought that the general concept of having a director in was to ensure a long-term vision. You simply cannot do that if you do not build upon what is already there. I despised RM’s scorched earth policy for this very reason. In my opinion, a director should be hired by a chairman because they believe in a way to run the club that appeals to the chairman. That director says, for example, we should recruit managers who have a strong preference for attacking football and who mostly play formation A. They then go and do that. At that point, they largely leave the manager alone other than providing resources and having an important say in the signings. The director doesn’t need to get in the manager’s way because he’s hired someone who is aligned with the club structure. When that manager fails, he’s sacked and replaced with someone who is also aligned to that structure. This saves the club from bringing in 10-11 new players every year (or is supposed to). Yes - a long term vision in terms of where the club want to be in the league, the age profile of the squad, how the available money is to be spent and maybe a vague steer that the club should entertain the fans. Can you even imagine John Coates and Ricky Martin telling a Head Coach how the team should line up and play? Can you imagine any self respecting Head Coach even contemplating being told what to do in football matters by people who clearly haven't got any experience, training or the slightest clue what they are talking about? If SJW rocks up and does that Schumacher will be gone before the season is over. In addition the order you have described things is correct. The board appoint a Technical Director and then the board and the Technical Director appoint the Head Coach. In our case the Board appointed a manager, who appointed a Technical Director who wasn't equipped to interfer in footballing matters, the manager gets sacked, the board and the appointee of the previous manager employ a Head Coach and then the board sack the Technical Director. Do you really think the board have brought in SJW to interfer more than Martin in footballing matters but only on a short term basis rather than a long term basis your model suggests? If they have we are fucked. |
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Post by pushon on Feb 23, 2024 13:22:23 GMT
In what way does the TD not lead on footballing matters other than the day to day coaching? The TD does not decide on the style of play, formation, type of player required for each position on the pitch, squad rotation and the only say they have on transfers is in terms of the financial position of the club. Do you actually believe Ricky Martin (a man with no coaching badges and no experience of playing football) did any of those things under Neil or Schumacher? He was a senior/middle manager. And do you really think SJW has been brought in to lead on what goes on the pitch? If that's happening to all intent and purpose we've sacked what used to be called the manager, effectively demoted Schumacher and given the role of leading on footballing matter to someone with less experience than Schumacher. That really would be insane. That's why it's intriguing to know..What is his brief..what is expected from him? |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2024 13:32:02 GMT
In what way does the TD not lead on footballing matters other than the day to day coaching? The TD does not decide on the style of play, formation, type of player required for each position on the pitch, squad rotation and the only say they have on transfers is in terms of the financial position of the club. Do you actually believe Ricky Martin (a man with no coaching badges and no experience of playing football) did any of those things under Neil or Schumacher? He was a senior/middle manager. And do you really think SJW has been brought in to lead on what goes on the pitch? If that's happening to all intent and purpose we've sacked what used to be called the manager, effectively demoted Schumacher and given the role of leading on footballing matter to someone with less experience than Schumacher. That really would be insane. “When hiring, clubs should ensure they are confident that their Technical Director has the ability to establish compelling coaching and playing philosophies.” “8. A key role in preparing the club for the future is for the Technical Director to determine player profiling, scouting and recruitment strategies. An overall player management system or club scouting database can help a Technical Director keep track of all players that are in the region, monitor the progress of potential future signings and ensure they are getting the right experience and exposure to further their development.” Weber (Norwich) was a senior recruitment manager before stepping in to the role. They don’t need to coach but they do need to be able to identify good coaches and be able to build inter-departmental relationships. As for Walters, no, I think he’s a cheerleader to unite the fanbase behind a previous message of hard work and determination (I would have preferred Dallas Cowgirls now that they are on holiday). However, he will almost certainly be in team meetings even if he’s not the one with any executive power (he may well be given it in the summer). Who knows, let’s just hope that it gives a “new manager bounce” feel and we win a few. |
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Post by TinkerT on Feb 23, 2024 13:36:23 GMT
First day on the job watching over training at the side of the pitch, commitment 100%
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Post by jesusmcmuffin on Feb 23, 2024 13:39:45 GMT
I am still not sure why we got rid of RM. Despite all the noise on here about RM being toxic I have not seen anything that actually confirms this. Interfering in team selection? No evidence. Clash of personalities with SS forcing JC into backing one of them? No evidence. Poor recruitment? Possibly but did it warrant making the change in Feb rather than at end of season? Sacrificial lamb because JC could see the fans had turned on RM (based on nothing more than hearsay and unsubstantiated social media posts). Most probably. I am not saying the decision is not the correct one but it seems to me that RM is the victim of a witch-hunt. Other than the poor recruitment I am not aware of other issues that would warrant making the change. There's always someone on staff who is finger pointed at and his role questioned despite no one having a clue what their day to say tasks are. John Rudge was a great example The weekly ..what does John Rudge actually do ? Threads |
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Post by baconburger on Feb 23, 2024 13:53:13 GMT
It's a strategic role, so having a short term interim makes no sense whatsoever. The tech director should be executing mid/long term policy. No point in SJW applying a direction and making decisions that have long term impact, if the permanent appointee is in before the summer. All that matters in the immediate term is to avoid relegation. We can concern ourselves with future ambition and direction after we've not gone down a league. A TD/SD/DoF has no hand in whether we avoid relegation. Our performance would have been as a result of their work months ago. Is he going to be working on deals to bring players in in the Summer, is he going to be making decisions on the retained list for next season, is he going to be making decisions on contract extensions? It's a gimmick to appease simpletons, SJW oh great is he bringing Whelan with him? They know the club, maybe they'll give TP a ring.  |
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Post by onepara on Feb 23, 2024 13:53:22 GMT
Neil Warnock said that it's all very well having these stats, but he prefers, & you can't beat, eyes-on when assessing a players ability. John Rudge style. He goes & looks for himself. It may be old-school, but it's the best way.
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Post by LGH87 on Feb 23, 2024 14:05:14 GMT
Neil Warnock said that it's all very well having these stats, but he prefers, & you can't beat, eyes-on when assessing a players ability. John Rudge style. He goes & looks for himself. It may be old-school, but it's the best way. So why have all top clubs moved away from this then? |
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Post by FullerMagic on Feb 23, 2024 14:14:38 GMT
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Post by biddulphchav on Feb 23, 2024 14:16:29 GMT
Neil Warnock said that it's all very well having these stats, but he prefers, & you can't beat, eyes-on when assessing a players ability. John Rudge style. He goes & looks for himself. It may be old-school, but it's the best way. So why have all top clubs moved away from this then? I don’t think they have, have they? They have very experienced scouts and coaches who go and watch these players before they bring them into their academies. The players that come into the first teams at these top clubs probably don’t need to be watched to be fair - most of them are household names. It’s a bit different at the lower levels |
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Post by skip on Feb 23, 2024 14:19:36 GMT
It's a gimmick to appease simpletons. That's me told. |
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Post by owdestokie2 on Feb 23, 2024 14:21:42 GMT
I have to smile at some of the posts. It seems JC can’t do right for doing wrong
Another good phrase used by my mum very frequently comes to mind;
You can’t have your cake and eat it 😂
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Post by LGH87 on Feb 23, 2024 14:25:08 GMT
So why have all top clubs moved away from this then? I don’t think they have, have they? They have very experienced scouts and coaches who go and watch these players before they bring them into their academies. The players that come into the first teams at these top clubs probably don’t need to be watched to be fair - most of them are household names. It’s a bit different at the lower levels To be fair, Chelsea and Liverpool just let Brighton do all the hard work  |
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Post by baconburger on Feb 23, 2024 14:25:36 GMT
In what way does the TD not lead on footballing matters other than the day to day coaching? The TD does not decide on the style of play, formation, type of player required for each position on the pitch, squad rotation and the only say they have on transfers is in terms of the financial position of the club. Do you actually believe Ricky Martin (a man with no coaching badges and no experience of playing football) did any of those things under Neil or Schumacher? He was a senior/middle manager. And do you really think SJW has been brought in to lead on what goes on the pitch? If that's happening to all intent and purpose we've sacked what used to be called the manager, effectively demoted Schumacher and given the role of leading on footballing matter to someone with less experience than Schumacher. That really would be insane. Your understanding would make changing structures pointless it's a glorified 'God Manager' structure with a TD acting as CEO. A TD should help prevent flip flopping and provide a consistency of direction ie choosing manager/head coach to implement a blueprint that you've been building your squad to deliver not bring a new one with him regardless of whether it suits the tools at his disposal and also prevent a manager/head coach in situ from going rogue a'la Richie Barker. A TD controls and drives the club philosophy and ethos a head coach manages the delivery of that philosophy not a philosophy of his choosing. It's all pointless unless JC actually buys into something and sticks with it. The people he keeps appointing don't come from any similar school of thought about the game. He basically doesn't know what he wants other than to be more successful. |
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Post by lordb on Feb 23, 2024 14:28:25 GMT
How is appointing Jon Walters for 3 months very high risk? The club has stated that the recruitment process has started. 1 No-one can properly fulfil the role of Technical Director on an interim basis. They won't have the time to do anything significant and anything they do is likely to be pulled apart by the permeant appointment. In effect the role of Technical Director in it's true sense has been parked and the club is operating with no one in charge of strategic direction. The club is temporarily rudderless. 2 Schumacher is an inexperienced Head Coach Manager and Walters is an inexperienced Technical Director. Going with one inexperienced person in those roles is risky, the riskiest role to give to someone who is inexperienced is Technical Director and having an inexperienced Technical Director there to support an inexperienced Head Coach is just about the riskiest thing any club could do. 3 Putting a Head Coach in as temporary fix is fine as they can have a short term impact. Technical Directors do not usually have a short impact but their work isn't realised in the short term. If you have an immediate problem you don't solve it by changing your Technical Director. If Martin has created a toxic environment then bringing in Walters on a short term basis to heal wounds is understandable. But to believe it's actually not a risky appointment is to wear some spectacularly rose tinted glasses. The alternative choices : Keep RM till the summer appoint someone available /attainable, given the timing extremely probable that would be somone no good Don’t have anyone in the role until the summer The club have absolutely made the right decision |
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Post by biddulphchav on Feb 23, 2024 14:29:22 GMT
I have to smile at some of the posts. It seems JC can’t do right for doing wrong Another good phrase used by my mum very frequently comes to mind; You can’t have your cake and eat it 😂 I’ve never understood that phrase. What’s the point of having cake if you can’t eat it? To smear it all over your arse or what? Never made sense |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2024 14:29:32 GMT
It's a gimmick to appease simpletons. That's me told. Me too. When do the Season Tickets go on sale? |
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