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Post by davejohnno1 on Oct 9, 2023 13:38:36 GMT
The key to Neil's future, I suppose, is are Ricky Martin and the transfer guy (whose name escapes me for a minute) intrinsically linked with Neil? Are they Neil men or Club men? Are they here because Neil wanted them here or are they here because they are the guys the club chose to take the club down a slightly different, slightly less manager centric route?
Given Neil's stated reasons for leaving Sunderland, you have to think they are Neil men, here because the manager wanted them here.
If that is the case, then you have to assume Neil is safe and yet again, this will be considered a transitional year ready for a serious tilt at promotion next season and that anything beyond relegation will be deemed a necessary evil on that journey.
If we assume for a minute that they aren't Neil men and are indeed club men, then you have to think Neil will be coming under serious pressure right now.
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Post by prestwichpotter on Oct 9, 2023 13:39:04 GMT
Aside from the Bristol game are there any good examples of this? There might be more than jump to my mind. It often feels like once we concede a goal that’s it done. Millwall, we absolutely battered them second half, but how many games has he badly got wrong to start with? Millwall and Ipswich is all I can think of. Hull at home.
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Alex Neil
Oct 9, 2023 13:39:33 GMT
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Post by jesusmcmuffin on Oct 9, 2023 13:39:33 GMT
Aside from the Bristol game are there any good examples of this? There might be more than jump to my mind. It often feels like once we concede a goal that’s it done. Millwall, we absolutely battered them second half, but how many games has he badly got wrong to start with? Millwall and Ipswich is all I can think of. Preston, , Hull and Norwich Was obvious how Preston would set up. Norwich and Millwall should have wrapped the games up first half. Out of 11 games it's not a great record I guess the Rotherham games cover for them
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Alex Neil
Oct 9, 2023 13:40:03 GMT
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Post by Billy the kid on Oct 9, 2023 13:40:03 GMT
Aside from the Bristol game are there any good examples of this? There might be more than jump to my mind. It often feels like once we concede a goal that’s it done. Millwall, we absolutely battered them second half, but how many games has he badly got wrong to start with? Millwall and Ipswich is all I can think of. It's the overall record, you can't argue with numbers regardless of any recent bias. Ide like to say that he set up in the last two just about as best as he can. But it's factually over the course of time simply not good enough. Ide like to think that we can get to the next international break and we have gone on some sort of decent run where we are comfortably in the top half of the league, but I can't see it.
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Alex Neil
Oct 9, 2023 13:43:16 GMT
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Post by boskampsflaps on Oct 9, 2023 13:43:16 GMT
Millwall, we absolutely battered them second half, but how many games has he badly got wrong to start with? Millwall and Ipswich is all I can think of. Preston, , Hull and Norwich Was obvious how Preston would set up. Norwich and Millwall should have wrapped the games up first half. Out of 11 games it's not a great record I guess the Rotherham games cover for them Norwich wasn't that bad and we deserved something out of it, Hull is fair enough but I don't think we got dicked particularly.
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Alex Neil
Oct 9, 2023 13:45:47 GMT
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Post by jesusmcmuffin on Oct 9, 2023 13:45:47 GMT
Preston, , Hull and Norwich Was obvious how Preston would set up. Norwich and Millwall should have wrapped the games up first half. Out of 11 games it's not a great record I guess the Rotherham games cover for them Norwich wasn't that bad and we deserved something out of it, Hull is fair enough but I don't think we got dicked particularly. We didn't score at Norwich or Millwall so not really although we were a lot better. Shows what they could do if set up properly over 90 mins
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Post by shakermaker on Oct 9, 2023 13:47:03 GMT
Nobody is cemented anywhere with 35 games to play Agreed. However, I think that you have to admit though that there is very little evidence so far this season to suggest that we are on anything other than a downward trajectory. I think we have the makings of a decent squad, but AN is managing this group of players very poorly at the moment and we look poorly coached. Tactically, we look all over the place. The next three games are massive. If we fail to pick up any wins against Leeds, Sunderland, and Middlesbrough then we will be cemented in the bottom three with nearly a third of the season gone. AN is starting to run out of time and needs a little unbeaten run from somewhere. It's hard to look at our predicament objectively, but I shall try. Slaviša Jokanović (my original choice for succeeding MON) undertook a similar mass rebuild at Fulham for the 16/17 season. He started off with a win against eventual champions Newcastle, and then from the fourth game hit a slump where he achieved only slightly better than Neil with 11 points from 11 games. They ended up finishing 6th. However, ahead of their blip Fulham hadn't suffered the injuries that we have. Putting our situation into context, Neil has not had Mmaee or Vidigal available to start for 7 of our 11 games so far, Stevens missing for 6 of those 7 games, and then no Campbell for almost 4 out of those 7 games. That's a good chunk of our goal threat wiped out for large swathes of our season so far. It would take its toll on any team. Unlike Fulham that season, Neil isn't getting a chance to go through a 'bedding in' slump due to the unprecedented injuries to key players. Granted he hasn't helped himself with his tinkering and persistence with Laurent, but I'm not sure that alone warrants enough to sack him. We currently have five first team and two squad players out of action. With the depleted squad at our disposal, what realistically could be our best team for anyone else to get a tune out of? Transfer strategy is a club effort, and failure to bring in a striker and selling both Tymon and Taylor without bolstering the defence is as much on JC and Tricky as it is Neil. The Bristol City and Southampton games though showed the players haven't downed tools for him and considering the patchwork team we put out against Leicester, I thought we did remarkably well to keep it down to 2-0. If Neil was failing with his first team available, I'd be all for change. I'm just not convinced another manager will come in and start getting results with the injury-hit squad we have. Neil has to be given time until he at least gets some of those players back – ideally as much time as it takes without us being cast adrift. It's not as simple either as laying markers in the sand and committing to sack him at the next international break if we are in a critical position, yet still have key injuries but with our players still fighting for him. Change for the sake of change can cause more disruption. Ultimately, the January window can't come soon enough.
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Alex Neil
Oct 9, 2023 13:47:12 GMT
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Post by boskampsflaps on Oct 9, 2023 13:47:12 GMT
Millwall, we absolutely battered them second half, but how many games has he badly got wrong to start with? Millwall and Ipswich is all I can think of. It's the overall record, you can't argue with numbers regardless of any recent bias. Ide like to say that he set up in the last two just about as best as he can. But it's factually over the course of time simply not good enough. Ide like to think that we can get to the next international break and we have gone on some sort of decent run where we are comfortably in the top half of the league, but I can't see it. I was specifically talking about set up/tactics. The record this season is poor as you say, but I still think the squad is much better than last season and once everyone's back we'll see much better results. I think a few are going a bit over the top with how bad it's been, a decent amount of them have been close and could have gone either way. Obviously if they don't change he'll be gone, I think he's got until Jan to show he's capable.
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Alex Neil
Oct 9, 2023 13:48:44 GMT
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Post by thestatusquo on Oct 9, 2023 13:48:44 GMT
I’m at a Clash moment with him. Should he stay or should he go ??!!
I’m at a loss. If he goes could we end up with another Lambert? Things surely can’t carry on like this
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Post by boskampsflaps on Oct 9, 2023 13:49:19 GMT
Norwich wasn't that bad and we deserved something out of it, Hull is fair enough but I don't think we got dicked particularly. We didn't score at Norwich or Millwall so not really although we were a lot better. Shows what they could do if set up properly over 90 mins Didn't score no but we were just as good as Norwich and easily the better team against Millwall over the 90, mm from getting something from it, as I say I think a few are going over the top with how bad it's been performance/set up wise.
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Post by jesusmcmuffin on Oct 9, 2023 13:53:37 GMT
I’m at a Clash moment with him. Should he stay or should he go ??!! I’m at a loss. If he goes could we end up with another Lambert? Things surely can’t carry on like this Never understood that song If I stay there will be trouble I I go it will be double !! Why would you go then, asking for it? You never saw Haircut 100 talking rubbish like that
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Post by jay1610 on Oct 9, 2023 13:55:34 GMT
Not sure if it’s just me but seeing that record surprised me, I thought it was much worse. Only QPR and Rotherham are worse. But I think it's the home record that makes it seem even worse 25 7 4 14 25 Crikey. Losing 60% of your home games is a sackable offence at any club.
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Post by silsdenstokie on Oct 9, 2023 13:58:25 GMT
The key to Neil's future, I suppose, is are Ricky Martin and the transfer guy (whose name escapes me for a minute) intrinsically linked with Neil? Are they Neil men or Club men? Are they here because Neil wanted them here or are they here because they are the guys the club chose to take the club down a slightly different, slightly less manager centric route? Given Neil's stated reasons for leaving Sunderland, you have to think they are Neil men, here because the manager wanted them here. If that is the case, then you have to assume Neil is safe and yet again, this will be considered a transitional year ready for a serious tilt at promotion next season and that anything beyond relegation will be deemed a necessary evil on that journey. If we assume for a minute that they aren't Neil men and are indeed club men, then you have to think Neil will be coming under serious pressure right now. Think Martin is his guy, not so sure about the American (Jarrod??) I agree though that unless we are staring into a relegation dogfight in December, I doubt they,ll do anything
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Alex Neil
Oct 9, 2023 14:01:35 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Oct 9, 2023 14:01:35 GMT
The key to Neil's future, I suppose, is are Ricky Martin and the transfer guy (whose name escapes me for a minute) intrinsically linked with Neil? Are they Neil men or Club men? Are they here because Neil wanted them here or are they here because they are the guys the club chose to take the club down a slightly different, slightly less manager centric route? Given Neil's stated reasons for leaving Sunderland, you have to think they are Neil men, here because the manager wanted them here. If that is the case, then you have to assume Neil is safe and yet again, this will be considered a transitional year ready for a serious tilt at promotion next season and that anything beyond relegation will be deemed a necessary evil on that journey. If we assume for a minute that they aren't Neil men and are indeed club men, then you have to think Neil will be coming under serious pressure right now. At the last meet night, John managed to stumble a few words out to the effect of "they're club men". Club men employed by the manager is my guess or more likely, snakes and rats turning on each other in times of trouble, where they conveniently forget who their mates are but remember their huge salaries.
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Alex Neil
Oct 9, 2023 14:01:56 GMT
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Post by cheadlepotter on Oct 9, 2023 14:01:56 GMT
Aside from the Bristol game are there any good examples of this? There might be more than jump to my mind. It often feels like once we concede a goal that’s it done. Millwall, we absolutely battered them second half, but how many games has he badly got wrong to start with? Millwall and Ipswich is all I can think of. Every game he’s picked Laurent this season?
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Post by FullerMagic on Oct 9, 2023 14:06:55 GMT
The key to Neil's future, I suppose, is are Ricky Martin and the transfer guy (whose name escapes me for a minute) intrinsically linked with Neil? Are they Neil men or Club men? Are they here because Neil wanted them here or are they here because they are the guys the club chose to take the club down a slightly different, slightly less manager centric route? Given Neil's stated reasons for leaving Sunderland, you have to think they are Neil men, here because the manager wanted them here. If that is the case, then you have to assume Neil is safe and yet again, this will be considered a transitional year ready for a serious tilt at promotion next season and that anything beyond relegation will be deemed a necessary evil on that journey. If we assume for a minute that they aren't Neil men and are indeed club men, then you have to think Neil will be coming under serious pressure right now. At the last meet night, John managed to stumble a few words out to the effect of "they're club men". Club men employed by the manager is my guess or more likely, snakes and rats turning on each other in times of trouble, where they conveniently forget who their mates are but remember their huge salaries. Yeah, he said "Alex has his direct team, who work for him - everyone else is a club appointment who'll be here for a long time"
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Alex Neil
Oct 9, 2023 14:16:54 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Oct 9, 2023 14:16:54 GMT
At the last meet night, John managed to stumble a few words out to the effect of "they're club men". Club men employed by the manager is my guess or more likely, snakes and rats turning on each other in times of trouble, where they conveniently forget who their mates are but remember their huge salaries. Yeah, he said "Alex has his direct team, who work for him - everyone else is a club appointment who'll be here for a long time" Thought I hadn't misheard it. Thanks👍
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Post by davejohnno1 on Oct 9, 2023 14:18:20 GMT
At the last meet night, John managed to stumble a few words out to the effect of "they're club men". Club men employed by the manager is my guess or more likely, snakes and rats turning on each other in times of trouble, where they conveniently forget who their mates are but remember their huge salaries. Yeah, he said "Alex has his direct team, who work for him - everyone else is a club appointment who'll be here for a long time" Very interesting. Did tricky Ricky outlast Neil at Norwich? I'm thinking he did? In that case, maybe Neil will be coming under much greater scrutiny and pressure than we'd maybe imagine.
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Alex Neil
Oct 9, 2023 14:20:15 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Oct 9, 2023 14:20:15 GMT
Yeah, he said "Alex has his direct team, who work for him - everyone else is a club appointment who'll be here for a long time" Very interesting. Did tricky Ricky outlast Neil at Norwich? I'm thinking he did? In that case, maybe Neil will be coming under much greater scrutiny and pressure than we'd maybe imagine. He did and actually interviewed a certain Michael O'Neill for the job before he was binned off by Stewart Webber and eventually Farke was appointed...
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Post by Sfance on Oct 9, 2023 14:22:18 GMT
I don't buy this injuries excuse. We ALWAYS have about the same number of injuries. It's a built-in excuse, ass-cover for whichever loser Idiot John hired last. Now, Eustace . . . finally someone who'd be an exciting appointment. And we wouldn't even have to pay someone to free him up. A classic no-brainer.
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Alex Neil
Oct 9, 2023 14:26:45 GMT
via mobile
Post by jesusmcmuffin on Oct 9, 2023 14:26:45 GMT
I don't buy this injuries excuse. We ALWAYS have about the same number of injuries. It's a built-in excuse, ass-cover for whichever loser Idiot John hired last. Now, Eustace . . . finally someone who'd be an exciting appointment. And we wouldn't even have to pay someone to free him up. A classic no-brainer. We weren't winning games with a full squad . MON did have a shocking list but got on with it
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Alex Neil
Oct 9, 2023 14:55:37 GMT
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Post by gingerninja on Oct 9, 2023 14:55:37 GMT
So who are we thinking are "club" men and who are AN's men?.
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Post by silsdenstokie on Oct 9, 2023 15:06:14 GMT
I always thought Martin was ANs man. The fact he isnt should make things less complicated.
Presume only Canning and Gallagher are Neil’s men
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Post by marwood on Oct 9, 2023 15:07:26 GMT
4 -having the awareness to realise when a game has been set up wrong and changing in game tactics (failed on the whole) On the contrary, he seemes good at changing the tactics when we underperform. Setting the team up before the games on the other hand, he's been rubbish. agree he's usually great at throwing on multiple subs, to try and influence the game, as early as half time, but rarely (Bristol aside) does it pay dividends, as the league table shows. Bizzarely, he sat back like a frog in a pan of slow boiling water and allowed Leicester to regain momentum of the game before throwing on 3 subs on 88 minutes. That was the tipping point for me, and I them moved into the Neil out camp
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Post by marwood on Oct 9, 2023 15:10:09 GMT
52% of of our goals this season scored against Rotherham*
let that sink in
*shamelessly stolen from podcast I downloaded this morning. **Need to wait until something good happens to me before I listen to it, as I will want to punch a wall when i do
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Alex Neil
Oct 9, 2023 15:10:50 GMT
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Post by Staffsoatcake on Oct 9, 2023 15:10:50 GMT
I would love to see AN turn things round, but are there some who just want him to continue failing, so they can say I told you so?
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Alex Neil
Oct 9, 2023 15:22:11 GMT
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Post by shakermaker on Oct 9, 2023 15:22:11 GMT
I don't buy this injuries excuse. We ALWAYS have about the same number of injuries. It's a built-in excuse, ass-cover for whichever loser Idiot John hired last. Now, Eustace . . . finally someone who'd be an exciting appointment. And we wouldn't even have to pay someone to free him up. A classic no-brainer. We weren't winning games with a full squad . MON did have a shocking list but got on with it Before the Preston game, we had 2W and 2L, which is relatively normal for a new squad. Since then, we’ve been without Stevens, Mmaee and Vidigal. Campbell has also been missing for almost the past 4 games. Added to Gooch, Hoever, Wilmot and Rose missing for Leicester, you can’t say this isn’t a crippling injury list for any manager to cope with.
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Alex Neil
Oct 9, 2023 15:28:35 GMT
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Post by sportsman on Oct 9, 2023 15:28:35 GMT
Gary Neville says in summing up the arsenal citeh game that it's expected both teams would struggle to perform with two key players out each.
Try bloody 9 then!
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Post by jesusmcmuffin on Oct 9, 2023 16:10:02 GMT
Gary Neville says in summing up the arsenal citeh game that it's expected both teams would struggle to perform with two key players out each. Try bloody 9 then! He's struggled for a year though
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Alex Neil
Oct 9, 2023 17:04:38 GMT
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Post by superpotter on Oct 9, 2023 17:04:38 GMT
I don't buy this injuries excuse. We ALWAYS have about the same number of injuries. It's a built-in excuse, ass-cover for whichever loser Idiot John hired last. Now, Eustace . . . finally someone who'd be an exciting appointment. And we wouldn't even have to pay someone to free him up. A classic no-brainer. Someone said the return of two or three key players and we have a decent team ,, trouble when they are back two or three others will be injured, and we are back to square one again . Can’t be all bad luck these injuries, Wimots was I know .
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