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Alex Neil
Oct 8, 2023 11:22:59 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Oct 8, 2023 11:22:59 GMT
I think the fans have been very tolerable of Neil to be honest but I don’t think it’s going to last much longer. Has any other Stoke manager in recent times had an easier ride?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 8, 2023 11:24:36 GMT
This. I think people forget how bad the situation was when MoN walked through the door. He saved us from almost certain relegation and in his first full season he stabilised the club despite FFP restrictions. We even had a couple of short dabbles around the play-offs. However, by the end of his tenure he had lost his way and looked short of ideas. Ultimately, his groundwork whilst being hamstrung by FFP is why AN was able to bring in 17 players in the summer. It was the right decision to sack him, but we can appreciate that he did a decent job. He lost his way straight after keeping us up, should have gone at the end of the first full season. Maybe. We now know that the one Stoke manager, really really screwed by FFP and reduced to signing the likes of Flint and 40 year old Jags on freebie one year / six month deals was MoN . He kept us in the championship, and in the process had a hit and miss time signing bargain basement players young and old , like jack Clarke, dujon sterling, Aden flint and jags . Everyone a bargain because they were either unproven or the opposite ( past it!) Considering the situation he inherited from NJ and the financial straight jacket he had to operate in, he made a fair fist of things, without ever looking like bringing us success ( a massive ask on a budget of zero)
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Post by boskampsflaps on Oct 8, 2023 11:25:43 GMT
I think the fans have been very tolerable of Neil to be honest but I don’t think it’s going to last much longer. Has any other Stoke manager in recent times had an easier ride? Are you forgetting MON he was awful and no idea what he was doing, subs always came late or not at all yet one game where AN does it and he gets slaughtered for it.
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Alex Neil
Oct 8, 2023 11:28:12 GMT
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Post by boskampsflaps on Oct 8, 2023 11:28:12 GMT
He lost his way straight after keeping us up, should have gone at the end of the first full season. Maybe. We now know that the one Stoke manager, really really screwed by FFP and reduced to signing the likes of Flint and 40 year old Jags on freebie one year / six month deals was MoN . He kept us in the championship, and in the process had a hit and miss time signing bargain basement players young and old , like jack Clarke, dujon sterling, Aden flint and jags . Everyone a bargain because they were either unproven or the opposite ( past it!) Considering the situation he inherited from NJ and the financial straight jacket he had to operate in, he made a fair fist of things, without ever looking like bringing us success ( a massive ask on a budget of zero) AN signed Sterling. Financially it was bad but he didn't sign players to suit his system and wasted money on players that never would, that along with discarding what had worked so well for him in keeping us up should have seen him gone much earlier.
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Alex Neil
Oct 8, 2023 11:30:37 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Oct 8, 2023 11:30:37 GMT
I honestly thought we were selling Brown to get in the cash to get the BTA (wba ) deal over the line. Which I was quite happy with, they both run around a lot , press the opposition for 90 mins and have their good days. But to sell Brown, to just to get rid of Brown, but not sign BTA , makes little sense. Seems clear that Leris was Brown's replacement, seemed that way at the time. You may well be right. But that is bizarre, because Leris, is not a forward. He's an experienced, hard working player , but unlike Brown and BTA , he is not a forward.
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Alex Neil
Oct 8, 2023 11:32:18 GMT
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Post by boskampsflaps on Oct 8, 2023 11:32:18 GMT
Seems clear that Leris was Brown's replacement, seemed that way at the time. You may well be right. But that is bizarre, because Leris, is not a forward. He's an experienced, hard working player , but unlike Brown and BTA , he is not a forward. He seems pretty similar to me position wise tbh, Brown was always better wide than up front but I get what you mean.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 8, 2023 11:35:13 GMT
He's lost more games as Stoke boss than an apparently unhinged NJ .
He's lost more games as Stoke boss than, MoN , operating within a harsh financial straight jacket.
He loses more games than NJ and MoN .
What can you say?
AN loses lots of games.
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Post by questionable on Oct 8, 2023 12:00:26 GMT
Regardless of recent management not a single one has had a plan or a vision we can buy into, that I’m afraid is down to the owners being naive and outdated.
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Alex Neil
Oct 8, 2023 12:15:35 GMT
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Post by estrangedsonoffaye on Oct 8, 2023 12:15:35 GMT
56 points from 51 games says it all really, he’s struggled and but for a very good spell over 5-7 games it would almost be universally shit across his entire tenure.
Given he has a track record of going into clubs, having a positive impact in the short term (Norwich and Sunderland he joined mid-season) I don’t buy the “he didn’t know the players” argument. Our displays this season are also in keeping with what happened at Norwich and Preston when he had settled, they dropped off massively (not that he had a great height to fall from here).
He strikes me as someone very much struggling for ideas who underestimated the job at the outset and is now struggling to impart his strategies on the team.
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Alex Neil
Oct 8, 2023 12:34:46 GMT
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Post by Staffsoatcake on Oct 8, 2023 12:34:46 GMT
I don't think AN will be sacked. But if J Coates does get rid, he had better have a replacement in place to step right in, if he hasn't we could be dropping more points whilst waiting to find a replacement.
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Post by Pugsley on Oct 8, 2023 12:37:50 GMT
They're a bang average bunch at best and more looking like a stray dogs home from performances thus far. There are a couple with potential but this manager is incapable of dealing with them and making sure they develop and improve in the right way - he has to go. I think that we have a decent (although slightly unbalanced squad). Travers is a very good goalkeeper at this level. Pearson, Stevens, Rose and Johnson are all experienced at this level. Burger, Jun-Ho, McNally, and Hoever all have excellent potential. Vidigal, Mmaae, and Haksobanovic have all shown glimpses of being capable performers at this level. I think with the right coaching and management there is a team that is far better than 21st in the league. I feel like so many of our new signings have been under utilised or just plain misused at times. The biggest mistake was not signing enough defenders or a proven striker at this level. This left us playing two central midfielders in our back line and relying on an 18 year old to spearhead our attack yesterday. Pearson, Johnson and Stevens are busted flushes. Waste of money. Rose is just poor. Hoever can't defend. Poundland TTA. Rest of them are unproven at Championship level. I like Vidigal, without him we don't look like scoring a goal. Neil is a poor manager, never a Stoke City manager. Strikes me he's only here for the money.
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Post by mrcoke on Oct 8, 2023 12:48:16 GMT
MON saved us from almost certain relegation, but did little after that. I have every sympathy with MON, he inherited a poor bunch of player left by previous managers, he gave youngsters a chance, he had no money, he had players on long contracts no one else wanted, the pandemic, etc. But at the end of the day MON lost his way and created nothing and left a poor bunch of players himself. Neil has cleaned them out and assembled a bunch of more talented players who seem to want to try, but Neil seems incapable of "getting a tune" out of them. Neil has assembled a squad that are picking up less points per game. How are they more talented? Overall man for man the players Neil has brought in are more talented than the players who left. Football is a team game and so far Neil has not found an effective combination. He has been unlucky like MON with injuries and looking at our fixture list, we could hardly have had a tougher set of games. Consequently he has failed to get a settled team. I don't know whether Neil will ever find the right combination. He is in danger of "losing" the players and the fans in which case he should be removed. But I still believe the players are still "with him" and I'm sure a good manager could get this squad playing well.
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Post by mrcoke on Oct 8, 2023 13:22:30 GMT
I still think it is too soon to sack Neil. His record is dire but he has assembled a brand new squad and he should be given enough time to try and make it work. As I said in my previous post there are tipping points when the owners have to act. If he has still not turned things around by December, I think the owners should appoint a new manager to give them time to weigh things up before the transfer window in January, to determine what change in players is required.
Regrettably our owners have left things too long usually, so things have turned so sour and players so negative that any new manager has an impossible uphill task. Like buying a house, there is no ideal one, but you know when it is "the right one". Our owners don't seem to have the ability to "know" when to sack or who to appoint.
It takes different types of manager to inspire and motivate different groups of players. The wrong appointment can actually demotivate players, which happened with Jones, a totally different manger to his predecessor and totally unsuited to Rowett's squad. Then, it is necessary for any manager to achieve sustainable success within a reasonable time period, otherwise they lose credibility. In industry 6 months is the norm, you can't wait for years for success to come in business.
If it comes to sacking Neil, I would suggest our squad needs a modern foreign manager as has worked at many other clubs in recent years, but I can't see our owners doing that.
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Alex Neil
Oct 8, 2023 13:49:59 GMT
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Post by logdog on Oct 8, 2023 13:49:59 GMT
He lost his way straight after keeping us up, should have gone at the end of the first full season. Maybe. We now know that the one Stoke manager, really really screwed by FFP and reduced to signing the likes of Flint and 40 year old Jags on freebie one year / six month deals was MoN . He kept us in the championship, and in the process had a hit and miss time signing bargain basement players young and old , like jack Clarke, dujon sterling, Aden flint and jags . Everyone a bargain because they were either unproven or the opposite ( past it!) Considering the situation he inherited from NJ and the financial straight jacket he had to operate in, he made a fair fist of things, without ever looking like bringing us success ( a massive ask on a budget of zero) He had lost his way in those final months, but it would have been interesting to see how he would have fared with some money to spend. The fact that he gave Collins & Souttar plenty of games, and the signing & subsequent profit on Jacob Brown are also to his credit. I think time will be kind to MON. He steadied a big stinking, sinking ship.
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Alex Neil
Oct 8, 2023 13:53:03 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Oct 8, 2023 13:53:03 GMT
I think the fans have been very tolerable of Neil to be honest but I don’t think it’s going to last much longer. Has any other Stoke manager in recent times had an easier ride? Are you forgetting MON he was awful and no idea what he was doing, subs always came late or not at all yet one game where AN does it and he gets slaughtered for it. He was awful, but still had a better record than Neil didn't he?
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Post by dirtygary69 on Oct 8, 2023 13:54:53 GMT
I still think it is too soon to sack Neil. His record is dire but he has assembled a brand new squad and he should be given enough time to try and make it work. As I said in my previous post there are tipping points when the owners have to act. If he has still not turned things around by December, I think the owners should appoint a new manager to give them time to weigh things up before the transfer window in January, to determine what change in players is required. Regrettably our owners have left things too long usually, so things have turned so sour and players so negative that any new manager has an impossible uphill task. Like buying a house, there is no ideal one, but you know when it is "the right one". Our owners don't seem to have the ability to "know" when to sack or who to appoint. It takes different types of manager to inspire and motivate different groups of players. The wrong appointment can actually demotivate players, which happened with Jones, a totally different manger to his predecessor and totally unsuited to Rowett's squad. Then, it is necessary for any manager to achieve sustainable success within a reasonable time period, otherwise they lose credibility. In industry 6 months is the norm, you can't wait for years for success to come in business. If it comes to sacking Neil, I would suggest our squad needs a modern foreign manager as has worked at many other clubs in recent years, but I can't see our owners doing that. I agree with this. We are frustrated after a real shit period over the last 6/7 years and I think the longer it rumbles on, the more the next manager is going to get lambasted for not changing our fortunes. He’s made mistakes and clearly not been a particularly successful appointment at all, but we still have a virtually entire new squad and a pile of injuries. I’m still trying my best to treat this season a completely separate thing from the last one given the differences. If some of these players signed for the project, will they be happy to see the man they signed for sacked so soon? They may not be arsed, but I’m sure they appreciate the difficulties faced so far. You could risk alienating some of those even further, if they are struggling to adapt already. I’d love nothing more to stuff Sunderland next game. It’s what we all need. Unless somebody outstanding becomes available then he stays. Up to a point anyway.
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Alex Neil
Oct 8, 2023 14:06:28 GMT
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Post by bayernoatcake on Oct 8, 2023 14:06:28 GMT
What was his formation for the March purple patch? It was a blip. An aberration. People really need to get over it.
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Post by Squeekster on Oct 8, 2023 14:07:19 GMT
Can we get off AN's back, I thought we'd established if was the fans fault for not creating a great atmosphere that will spur them on to great things!
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Post by biddulphchav on Oct 8, 2023 14:07:29 GMT
56 points from 51 games says it all really, he’s struggled and but for a very good spell over 5-7 games it would almost be universally shit across his entire tenure. Given he has a track record of going into clubs, having a positive impact in the short term (Norwich and Sunderland he joined mid-season) I don’t buy the “he didn’t know the players” argument. Our displays this season are also in keeping with what happened at Norwich and Preston when he had settled, they dropped off massively (not that he had a great height to fall from here). He strikes me as someone very much struggling for ideas who underestimated the job at the outset and is now struggling to impart his strategies on the team. I’m not sure AN is half the manager he thinks he is. When he came out with the line ‘I’ve never been so sure of success as I am here / I guarantee it’ I felt this is a man who has a very over inflated opinion of his own ability. There is a lot of bluster, but little humility in him judging by his media appearances. Maybe this experience will humble him and he’ll learn from it, let’s hope so.
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Alex Neil
Oct 8, 2023 15:15:45 GMT
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Post by shakermaker on Oct 8, 2023 15:15:45 GMT
Have you been hibernating for the last 12 months? Club pressed reset, that means reset. Whole different group of players, only a fool changes when we've been hampered and are a couple of wins away from being in the mix I am someone who only wants change if it benefits our fortunes. In Neil’s defence (or lack of on the the pitch at least!), yes he has suffered unprecedented injuries and there is a new squad to bed in. You can argue that selling Tymon and Brown may well have been decisions taken out of his hands. I don’t believe he has publically endorsed their departures, so I could have been inclined to think he’s just trying to gaffer tape the situation we find ourselves in as best we can. What has really left me unconvinced by Neil is his bizarre tinkering, and Southampton was the peak of frustration. Rather than starting the 4-3-3 that beat Bristol City against the odds, he inexplicably went diamond against Southampton! If it was down to injuries then he’s worthy of time to prove his first team when all fit. But I don’t see the signs of a man who has confidence and assurance in his own tactics.
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Alex Neil
Oct 8, 2023 15:19:01 GMT
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Post by jesusmcmuffin on Oct 8, 2023 15:19:01 GMT
Can we get off AN's back, I thought we'd established if was the fans fault for not creating a great atmosphere that will spur them on to great things! I thought it was the club being Toxic
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Post by estrangedsonoffaye on Oct 8, 2023 15:23:56 GMT
Just for the record Neil has 10 fewer points in his 51 games than MON (who absolutely was at the end of his rope) did in his final 51.
It’s an extremely damaging statistic regardless of context.
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Alex Neil
Oct 8, 2023 15:40:48 GMT
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Post by thedeadlyshart on Oct 8, 2023 15:40:48 GMT
The club seems to have a penchant for holding onto managers for way too long. Hughes, Rowett, Jones, MON, and now Neil all should have been sacked much sooner. The next one shouldn’t get the grace period to put their stamp on the team and two or three transfer windows to bring in their own players. If the players don’t perform they get dropped, and it should be the same for the person who is in charge of the team.
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Post by Old School Stokie on Oct 8, 2023 15:42:53 GMT
Of course the supporters - sorry the Oatcake keyboard warriors know best - Surely I never though we would "gel" with the turnaround in players - The Board have given AN a job to do and hes doing it - results in the short term are the sacrifice for later gains we-ve only gone 11 games - We've been the victims of lost poimts due to incompetant officials, injuries, loss of fom new comers from all over Europe. Some people on here need to take a chill pill or just get a life not happy unless you are criticising, when knowing nothing compared to the Managenment TEam or the plyaers who are all behind AN.
Just let them get on with it
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Alex Neil
Oct 8, 2023 15:43:22 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Oct 8, 2023 15:43:22 GMT
The club seems to have a penchant for holding onto managers for way too long. Hughes, Rowett, Jones, MON, and now Neil all should have been sacked much sooner. The next one shouldn’t get the grace period to put their stamp on the team and two or three transfer windows to bring in their own players. If the players don’t perform they get dropped, and it should be the same for the person who is in charge of the team. Neil has been here for just over 12 months and that includes roughly 3 months of an off season. I'm not sure you could sack him much sooner if you pulled the trigger now!
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Alex Neil
Oct 8, 2023 15:49:56 GMT
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Post by Gary Hackett on Oct 8, 2023 15:49:56 GMT
Just for the record Neil has 10 fewer points in his 51 games than MON (who absolutely was at the end of his rope) did in his final 51. It’s an extremely damaging statistic regardless of context. And MoN was working under extremely tight FFP conditions.
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Alex Neil
Oct 8, 2023 15:51:10 GMT
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Post by vidigal7 on Oct 8, 2023 15:51:10 GMT
Nobody is cemented anywhere with 35 games to play Agreed. However, I think that you have to admit though that there is very little evidence so far this season to suggest that we are on anything other than a downward trajectory. I think we have the makings of a decent squad, but AN is managing this group of players very poorly at the moment and we look poorly coached. Tactically, we look all over the place. The next three games are massive. If we fail to pick up any wins against Leeds, Sunderland, and Middlesbrough then we will be cemented in the bottom three with nearly a third of the season gone. AN is starting to run out of time and needs a little unbeaten run from somewhere. I thought we'd looked better in the last couple of games as things have started to settle down, you can't do anything about injuries and weve currently got eight
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Alex Neil
Oct 8, 2023 15:54:12 GMT
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Post by thedeadlyshart on Oct 8, 2023 15:54:12 GMT
The club seems to have a penchant for holding onto managers for way too long. Hughes, Rowett, Jones, MON, and now Neil all should have been sacked much sooner. The next one shouldn’t get the grace period to put their stamp on the team and two or three transfer windows to bring in their own players. If the players don’t perform they get dropped, and it should be the same for the person who is in charge of the team. Neil has been here for just over 12 months and that includes roughly 3 months of an off season. I'm not sure you could sack him much sooner if you pulled the trigger now! plenty of other clubs fire theirs in less than 12 months. I can’t remember the last Watford manager that lasted an entire calendar year. If they underfpwrform they don’t deserve to keep their job.
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Alex Neil
Oct 8, 2023 15:58:21 GMT
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Post by vidigal7 on Oct 8, 2023 15:58:21 GMT
Neil has been here for just over 12 months and that includes roughly 3 months of an off season. I'm not sure you could sack him much sooner if you pulled the trigger now! plenty of other clubs fire theirs in less than 12 months. I can’t remember the last Watford manager that lasted an entire calendar year. If they underfpwrform they don’t deserve to keep their job. If we're looking at the current league table as a guide to success ( which is ridiculous but it's what is happening) then Watford are on the same points as us right next to us in the table so they're hardly a fine example of how it's done
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Post by Deleted on Oct 8, 2023 16:00:03 GMT
Of course the supporters - sorry the Oatcake keyboard warriors know best - Surely I never though we would "gel" with the turnaround in players - The Board have given AN a job to do and hes doing it - results in the short term are the sacrifice for later gains we-ve only gone 11 games - We've been the victims of lost poimts due to incompetant officials, injuries, loss of fom new comers from all over Europe. Some people on here need to take a chill pill or just get a life not happy unless you are criticising, when knowing nothing compared to the Managenment TEam or the plyaers who are all behind AN. Just let them get on with it It's not just this season though. We've managed to get 56 points from 51 league games. That is absolutely appalling. We are sleepwalking in to another bottom-half table finish.
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