|
Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2024 9:53:18 GMT
I think people are missing the point somewhat. I wasn't comparing the talent levels of the two players - more that an old skooler like Warnock managed to get the most out of a really spiky character in Taraabt - more than any manager has in his career by managing him properly. Talent and potential is only useful if it's managed and coached properly. If Warnock had have lobbed him onto the bonfire then QPR wouldn't have reaped the benefit. He took the hard road of trusting him, coaching him and managing him knowing that it could have backfired and that he could have derailed his squad at any moment. Talent levels in that situation are irrespective. If Mmaee is a problem child then he has to be managed for the good of the team, rinsed dry of anything and everything he has to offer in the short term and moved on in the summer if the club so wish. Literally lobbing him in the reserves is a double negative - you get nothing out of him in the short term and you are depreciating your asset massively - all while hoping that it sets down a marker to the rest of the squad. That's before you throw into the mix that the only other alternatives we have are a Tyrese Campbell with two eyes on a summer bosman, a player unproven at this level in Niall Ennis albeit one that knows the manager and his system (...and one that looks unfit and very rusty) and a greenhorn in Nathan Lowe. Given how they rolled over and had their tummies tickled against Leicester then i'm not sure it had the desired effect in the short term - longer term we'll find out starting tomorrow. I think the old skool term is cutting your nose off to spite your face. If we get the balance of the team right we don't need to score that many goals between now and the end of the season to scrape through until the summer - a player like Mmaee could give us that output if he's managed properly. I doubt what we have left will but i'm hopeful i'm wrong on that one. If the team was free scoring and was higher up the table I would back the manager unconditionally. The team isn't and we aren't.
It's one of the things that Pulis excelled at too, I remember the stories about Taggart skiving off training to go on the lash in NI for a few days with some bullshit excuse, but knowing he needed him, Pulis put him in the team and he was the best player on the pitch. There are similar stories with Fuller too, not necessarily on the lash, but claiming he had an international friendly when he didn't, and taking additional days in Jamaica, he was benched as a result of that but came on to make the difference. There were quite a few cases like this in his time at Stoke from what I remember from him talking on undr the cosh.
Schumacher is well within his rights to lay down the law and respect to him for that, it's great that he demands high standards and I'm glad he has come out and said that in no uncertain terms - it sends a clear message. It is still a balancing act though, and until he's had time to put a squad together of players suitable for his management style then in some cases he'll need to adapt. Maybe Mmaee is not worth the trouble, that's for Schumacher to decide. We need to be picking up results though, if we do that then no questions will be asked of the manager. But if we end up going down then the manager and the players will be to blame, and the chances are he won't get the opportunity to build the squad that behave and play like he wants them to. Managers sometimes make exceptions for their favourites. Those favourites are usually in some way “unstoppable”. If a player isn’t that good, he probably shouldn’t give the manager a reason to drop them.
|
|
|
Mmaee
Feb 9, 2024 9:57:35 GMT
via mobile
Post by roylandstoke on Feb 9, 2024 9:57:35 GMT
Not sure you there’s an equivalency between Arnautovic and Maee. Arnie was a £2M gamble for a wealthy Premier League club. He’d played at the highest level of German football for 3 or 4 years. Mmaee was £1.5M gamble for a club that has been crippled by FFP. He’s played for poor teams in. Belgium and in the mighty Danish, Hungarian and Cypriot leagues. The Belgium league is good and the Danish and Hungarian leagues arent too shabby mate.He also did play for Standard Liege and Ferencváros who also are decent sides with long European pedigrees. He has just been disppointing because I expected a lot more from him. I do think he still has something about him,he would also benefit if the palyers around him were more consistent and chipped in with the occassional goal too.He cannot soley be blamed for our complete lack of goals. UEFA ranks the Belgium league 8th with Denmark and Hungary well below Scotland, but rankings can be distorted. and I’ll take your word on them being decent. Mmaee clearly has the physical attributes to be a decent player at this level and probably to hold his own at a higher level. Maybe the reason his best option this summer was a lower half championship club, was his poor attitude and questionable work ethic.
|
|
|
Mmaee
Feb 9, 2024 9:58:28 GMT
Post by moon on Feb 9, 2024 9:58:28 GMT
It's one of the things that Pulis excelled at too, I remember the stories about Taggart skiving off training to go on the lash in NI for a few days with some bullshit excuse, but knowing he needed him, Pulis put him in the team and he was the best player on the pitch. There are similar stories with Fuller too, not necessarily on the lash, but claiming he had an international friendly when he didn't, and taking additional days in Jamaica, he was benched as a result of that but came on to make the difference. There were quite a few cases like this in his time at Stoke from what I remember from him talking on undr the cosh.
Schumacher is well within his rights to lay down the law and respect to him for that, it's great that he demands high standards and I'm glad he has come out and said that in no uncertain terms - it sends a clear message. It is still a balancing act though, and until he's had time to put a squad together of players suitable for his management style then in some cases he'll need to adapt. Maybe Mmaee is not worth the trouble, that's for Schumacher to decide. We need to be picking up results though, if we do that then no questions will be asked of the manager. But if we end up going down then the manager and the players will be to blame, and the chances are he won't get the opportunity to build the squad that behave and play like he wants them to. Managers sometimes make exceptions for their favourites. Those favourites are usually in some way “unstoppable”. If a player isn’t that good, he probably shouldn’t give the manager a reason to drop them. Agreed, I'm not defending Mmaee and I certainly don't think he's "unstoppable". We have to get the best out of the players we have until the summer though, if the other strikers can find some form then it's not going to be an issue, if not then we might need him.
|
|
|
Post by PotteringThrough on Feb 9, 2024 10:11:11 GMT
It's one of the things that Pulis excelled at too, I remember the stories about Taggart skiving off training to go on the lash in NI for a few days with some bullshit excuse, but knowing he needed him, Pulis put him in the team and he was the best player on the pitch. There are similar stories with Fuller too, not necessarily on the lash, but claiming he had an international friendly when he didn't, and taking additional days in Jamaica, he was benched as a result of that but came on to make the difference. There were quite a few cases like this in his time at Stoke from what I remember from him talking on undr the cosh.
Schumacher is well within his rights to lay down the law and respect to him for that, it's great that he demands high standards and I'm glad he has come out and said that in no uncertain terms - it sends a clear message. It is still a balancing act though, and until he's had time to put a squad together of players suitable for his management style then in some cases he'll need to adapt. Maybe Mmaee is not worth the trouble, that's for Schumacher to decide. We need to be picking up results though, if we do that then no questions will be asked of the manager. But if we end up going down then the manager and the players will be to blame, and the chances are he won't get the opportunity to build the squad that behave and play like he wants them to. Managers sometimes make exceptions for their favourites. Those favourites are usually in some way “unstoppable”. If a player isn’t that good, he probably shouldn’t give the manager a reason to drop them. Players will go along with it as well if they know the player can deliver. I think that’s important as well. It’s fine treating players differently if the players are onside with it. Here’s Dicko talking about that with Fuller: Players were ok because they knew he could do the business and often did. It was probably the same with Taraabt. Mmaee isn’t doing it to the same level, it’s bound to cause a few issues within the camp. Get in line, start doing it on the pitch and then we’ll go from there.
|
|
|
Post by Laughing Gravy on Feb 9, 2024 10:28:57 GMT
Managers sometimes make exceptions for their favourites. Those favourites are usually in some way “unstoppable”. If a player isn’t that good, he probably shouldn’t give the manager a reason to drop them. Agreed, I'm not defending Mmaee and I certainly don't think he's "unstoppable". We have to get the best out of the players we have until the summer though, if the other strikers can find some form then it's not going to be an issue, if not then we might need him. I think the thing that everyone seems to be missing is that it seems very likely that this isn't something that has just happened since the new manager has come in. It's just that Schumacher appears to be the one that has grabbed the bull by the horns and done something about it. All the indications are that it has been going on for some time and possibly from day one. Quite why the previous manager (a supposed bluff disciplinarian himself) didn't do something about it is another question? Or perhaps he did and was limited at the time as to the punishment he could mete out. He could also have viewed Mmaee as 'his' signing and so was reluctant to admit he'd signed a bad egg who he couldn't control. Either way it has taken the new manager to see through the emperors new clothes and actually do something about it. There has been a lot of rumour and speculation about 'bridges burnt' and ultimatums given to 'move on or else' but nothing official until yesterday when it seems that the rug hasn't been pulled from under Mmaee's feet entirely. Schumacher was far more conciliatory than I was expecting from the rumours that were flying about and it is clear (in public anyway) he is saying the right things and that Mmaee does have a way back should he choose to knuckle down and make some effort. Whether he's prepared to do that remains to be seen. I get what people are saying and it does smack of biting your nose off...to some degree but at some point you do have to make a stand. If Schumacher has seen Mmaee poisoning the group (and by all accounts quite a few players have made some mention of it) then is it worth taking the risk on the couple more goals he may bring versus complete implosion due to infighting in the squad? The thing I struggle to understand is that given the knowledge that Mmaee was going to be bombed and that we were going to release Gayle and loan Tezgel why the fuck didn't we bring in another forward in addition to Ennis at the end of the window?
|
|
|
Mmaee
Feb 9, 2024 10:44:37 GMT
Post by nottsover60 on Feb 9, 2024 10:44:37 GMT
To me it seems pretty simple. For far too long has this club tolerated underachievement, idleness and lack of bottle in some of its playing staff. If we truly want to succeed and turn the ship around the club can’t accommodate bad eggs. The head coach is in charge and the players need to get on board. Those that don’t, don’t have a place here. It’s up to the player now to sort out his head, knuckle down and get on the train. Time will tell on that one. Now Schuey got it wrong on Saturday, he’ll get it wrong again. However he seems strong, he tells it how it is and is a mere few games into sorting the crap we’ve endured these last few years. I hope he keeps us up and we go from strength to strength under his stewardship. He feels like the right fit to me. Good on him. Yes it's difficult to imagine this wasn't going on under Neil and nothing was done about it to public knowledge. I do wonder now about the length of time his 'knock' took to heal but I imagine there is a club disciplinary policy which perhaps SS has tweaked a bit to include his unnegotiables. I imagine Mmaee was banished from the club last week rather than just being absent so perhaps something happened in Sunderland as he was up there with the squad. Obviously there was an internal disciplinary hearing on Monday and his attitude with the u21's may decide what happens next. It won't be the first time players have been 'naughty', even those picked in a England squad have been known on several occasions to break the disciplinary code (for those who remember the dentist's chair an example). Clubs will be dealing with this sort of thing regularly. Doesn't necessarily mean the player is a bad egg or unforgiveable. His attitude now will tell us that.
|
|
|
Mmaee
Feb 9, 2024 10:46:28 GMT
via mobile
Post by peepin on Feb 9, 2024 10:46:28 GMT
He plays, he doesn’t play I’m not sure why anybody is THAT bothered?! We are talking about an out and out striker that has scored 1 more goal than Jordan Thompson. And for the record I don’t rate Thompson but Jesus I know who we would miss more.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2024 10:49:13 GMT
Managers sometimes make exceptions for their favourites. Those favourites are usually in some way “unstoppable”. If a player isn’t that good, he probably shouldn’t give the manager a reason to drop them. Agreed, I'm not defending Mmaee and I certainly don't think he's "unstoppable". We have to get the best out of the players we have until the summer though, if the other strikers can find some form then it's not going to be an issue, if not then we might need him. Oh, I wrote undroppable, but autocorrect screwed me. I think it’s a balancing act that relies on the sensibilities of the squad. If Mmaee was a strong influence in the squad and playing well, telling him off for not doing his job may have been a bad idea. On the other hand, bad behaviour spreads. Sometimes it’s best to nip it in the bud and alienate one person rather than see a handful of players decide not to bother turning up on time or putting in any kind of serious effort. At the same time, while I don’t believe it’s likely, maybe Mmaee will actually knuckle down and put in more effort. If he decided to make a big difference in how he was handling himself, I can’t see SS not giving him an opportunity (because that looks bad). Unlike players like Etebo, N’Diaye etc, Mmaee likely wasn’t earning good money before Stoke, he won’t be earning that much here and he won’t be earning much when he leaves if he goes out in bad terms either. Hopefully, he realizes this and comes back better.
|
|
|
Post by st3mark on Feb 9, 2024 11:24:05 GMT
The fans hadn't really taken to him before. Doubt this will have done him any favours.
He needs to provide a lot more on the pitch before he gets a pass for this type of thing.
|
|
|
Mmaee
Feb 9, 2024 11:27:29 GMT
via mobile
Post by terryconroysmagic on Feb 9, 2024 11:27:29 GMT
You can unilaterally terminate a contract if you consider there has been a breach of it's terms. Mmaee may of course argue that he didn't and that it was wrong of the club. There may be litigation, but I'd prefer that than have a player living the good life and taking the piss once again No you cannot, depends on the breech
|
|
|
Mmaee
Feb 9, 2024 11:36:30 GMT
Post by idle on Feb 9, 2024 11:36:30 GMT
UEFA ranks the Belgium league 8th with Denmark and Hungary well below Scotland, but rankings can be distorted. and I’ll take your word on them being decent. Scotland is irrationally high on the UEFA rankings because Celtic and Rangers do well in Europe. The rest of the league is shite. Same with Hungary, Ferencvaros is the Rengers/Celtic of the hungarian league. According to this list from last year Scotland is below both Denmark and Belgium, although both behind the championship. Hungary is nowhere to be seen on the list (and thus below League Two...): link
|
|
|
Mmaee
Feb 9, 2024 11:50:55 GMT
Post by moon on Feb 9, 2024 11:50:55 GMT
He plays, he doesn’t play I’m not sure why anybody is THAT bothered?! We are talking about an out and out striker that has scored 1 more goal than Jordan Thompson. And for the record I don’t rate Thompson but Jesus I know who we would miss more. The alternatives for that central option (Ennis - 0 goals, Wesley - 0 goals, Lowe - 1 goal, Campbell - 1 goal) have scored two goals between them, Ennis is an unknown quantity and injury prone, Campbell is injury prone and is surely off in the summer - one minor injury and we've probably seen the last of him in a Stoke shirt, Lowe is 18 years old and doesn't look ready, Wesley may be built like Audley Harrison but he's even more cowardly.
|
|
|
Mmaee
Feb 9, 2024 12:03:16 GMT
Post by mcw on Feb 9, 2024 12:03:16 GMT
The fans hadn't really taken to him before. Doubt this will have done him any favours. He needs to provide a lot more on the pitch before he gets a pass for this type of thing. You can say that again, regardless of whether he looked like he could be a decent player in flashes the main impression I was getting was of him not being a team player. He has an air of general apathy about him when he's lost the ball or the ball is not played where he wants it, no harrying and no attempt to win the ball back or get into a shape to then help the team win the ball back having lost possession. Basically all the things that have now come out do not surprise me, he sounds like a me first individual.
|
|
|
Post by skip on Feb 9, 2024 12:11:23 GMT
I had high hopes for Mmaee but with each game he appeared to want a goal scoring opportunity passed to him on a silver platter. Win the ball you egotistical naïve twat. Add into that that he rocks up late for training, and I for one, am glad Schumacher has torn him a new arsehole.
|
|
|
Mmaee
Feb 9, 2024 12:23:00 GMT
via mobile
Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2024 12:23:00 GMT
You can unilaterally terminate a contract if you consider there has been a breach of it's terms. Mmaee may of course argue that he didn't and that it was wrong of the club. There may be litigation, but I'd prefer that than have a player living the good life and taking the piss once again No you cannot, depends on the breech i know it does. Depending on the breach you can terminate a contract.
|
|
|
Post by prestwichpotter on Feb 9, 2024 12:33:25 GMT
I know there's a few more egos floating around but managing a squad of players is no different than managing a group of people in a office or on a building site in lots of ways. If someone acts like a dick, it's not always the right way to just discard that person and move on. Both he and Schumacher are adults, he's an asset of our club and needed on the pitch in some capacity with our current attacking set up. Is there an underlying reason for his behaviour, is he struggling to settle in a new country? Once he's served his two week punishment training on his own/with the youngsters it shouldn't necessarily be the end providing Mmaee shows some humility and agrees to get his head down and work hard in training. It's in everyone's interest to make that happen. That said if he ends up moving to Turkey on deadline day it could all be irrelevant anyway.......
|
|
|
Post by mcw on Feb 9, 2024 12:41:13 GMT
I know there's a few more egos floating around but managing a squad of players is no different than managing a group of people in a office or on a building site in lots of ways. If someone acts like a dick, it's not always the right way to just discard that person and move on. Both he and Schumacher are adults, he's an asset of our club and needed on the pitch in some capacity with our current attacking set up. Is there an underlying reason for his behaviour, is he struggling to settle in a new country? Once he's served his two week punishment training on his own/with the youngsters it shouldn't necessarily be the end providing Mmaee shows some humility and agrees to get his head down and work hard in training. It's in everyone's interest to make that happen. That said if he ends up moving to Turkey on deadline day it could all be irrelevant anyway....... Agree totally and I think that is what the manager is saying and specifically to your point "providing Mmaee shows some humility and agrees to get his head down and work hard in training". If he does that, including showing respect to the rest of the team by turning up on time then there is no problem. I have no problem with a player that is obviously trying their hardest even if they then play badly, the decision to pick them is on the manager. A player that shows no inclination to work for the team and is limited in impact during a game is obviously a problem. He needs to buckle down as he is not a "maverick"or a game changing player that you can afford to carry, ergo he needs to buckle down, train hard, get into the team and work for the team and not just himself. The big question is whether his ego can stand up to being nothing more than a cog in a wheel versus believing he is special and should get special treatment.
|
|
|
Post by dirtclod on Feb 9, 2024 12:44:30 GMT
I want a manager who brings the damn-damn down on players with attitude issues once they've tried everything else. In fact, I'd have liked to see our manager at the time kick Berahino's ass right out in front of the stadium. At least get some entertainment out of the whole affair! A player like that gives you no choice as a manager - failure to do something impacts morale even worse.
The guy can't finish and no, he doesn't go that extra mile to even turn a borderline pass to him into a goal scoring opportunity. And what's this with deeming a pass to him "not good enough." Hey Scooter! If the damned ball is within 10 feet - your arse had better TRY to do something with it. I guess this pisses me off so much after seeing him play - way too many issues with his game to be acting like that. There's no "Striker's Ruthlessness" there.
We have bought ourselves a hunting dog here that won't hunt. Then you pull him out of the field and give him to the kids to play with.
|
|
|
Post by FullerMagic on Feb 9, 2024 12:49:16 GMT
You could see from some of Schumacher's early comments when he first came in he was trying to butter up Mmaee with a bit of carrot by going massively OTT about his first few performances.
But there must come a time when you're forced to bring out the big stick when behaviour doesn't change. It doesn't take Poirot to work out the character described in reports about his time at Standard Liege is still very much alive and well.
It's not as if he's in the same post code as Arnautovic or Fuller, talent-wise. So there's very little upside in banging your head against a brick wall and trying to manage the disruptive presence.
|
|
|
Mmaee
Feb 9, 2024 12:50:05 GMT
via mobile
Post by a on Feb 9, 2024 12:50:05 GMT
UEFA ranks the Belgium league 8th with Denmark and Hungary well below Scotland, but rankings can be distorted. and I’ll take your word on them being decent. Scotland is irrationally high on the UEFA rankings because Celtic and Rangers do well in Europe. The rest of the league is shite. Same with Hungary, Ferencvaros is the Rengers/Celtic of the hungarian league. According to this list from last year Scotland is below both Denmark and Belgium, although both behind the championship. Hungary is nowhere to be seen on the list (and thus below League Two...): linkDo well in Europe, may as well say Europa League, I don’t know how Scotland get a place in the Champions League, they’re a joke when they’re briefly in it.
|
|
|
Mmaee
Feb 9, 2024 12:55:21 GMT
via mobile
Post by boskampsflaps on Feb 9, 2024 12:55:21 GMT
Agreed, I'm not defending Mmaee and I certainly don't think he's "unstoppable". We have to get the best out of the players we have until the summer though, if the other strikers can find some form then it's not going to be an issue, if not then we might need him. I think the thing that everyone seems to be missing is that it seems very likely that this isn't something that has just happened since the new manager has come in. It's just that Schumacher appears to be the one that has grabbed the bull by the horns and done something about it. All the indications are that it has been going on for some time and possibly from day one. Quite why the previous manager (a supposed bluff disciplinarian himself) didn't do something about it is another question? Or perhaps he did and was limited at the time as to the punishment he could mete out. He could also have viewed Mmaee as 'his' signing and so was reluctant to admit he'd signed a bad egg who he couldn't control. Either way it has taken the new manager to see through the emperors new clothes and actually do something about it. There has been a lot of rumour and speculation about 'bridges burnt' and ultimatums given to 'move on or else' but nothing official until yesterday when it seems that the rug hasn't been pulled from under Mmaee's feet entirely. Schumacher was far more conciliatory than I was expecting from the rumours that were flying about and it is clear (in public anyway) he is saying the right things and that Mmaee does have a way back should he choose to knuckle down and make some effort. Whether he's prepared to do that remains to be seen. I get what people are saying and it does smack of biting your nose off...to some degree but at some point you do have to make a stand. If Schumacher has seen Mmaee poisoning the group (and by all accounts quite a few players have made some mention of it) then is it worth taking the risk on the couple more goals he may bring versus complete implosion due to infighting in the squad? The thing I struggle to understand is that given the knowledge that Mmaee was going to be bombed and that we were going to release Gayle and loan Tezgel why the fuck didn't we bring in another forward in addition to Ennis at the end of the window? Probably because they thought having Campbell back would/will be enough.
|
|
|
Post by FullerMagic on Feb 9, 2024 13:01:36 GMT
|
|
|
Mmaee
Feb 9, 2024 13:04:41 GMT
Post by LGH87 on Feb 9, 2024 13:04:41 GMT
🚨Exclusive: Statement from Ryan Mmaee and his representatives. "Ryan wants to correct the unfortunate situation and show the fans why he became a Potter. He is committed to doing what is necessary and has always wanted to be the best player he can at Stoke City" "He is very happy to be at the club and will do everything to prove this over the rest of the season." #SCFC @teamtalk This will boil the piss of a few on here
|
|
|
Post by scfcno1fan on Feb 9, 2024 13:06:16 GMT
Fair enough. Wants to correct the situation. If he trains hard, turns up on time etc, water under the bridge. Move on, get him in the squad.
|
|
|
Post by LGH87 on Feb 9, 2024 13:07:31 GMT
Fair enough. Wants to correct the situation. If he trains hard, turns up on time etc, water under the bridge. Move on, get him in the squad. If he does that, comes back a better player and scores a few. Schuey would be proven right.
|
|
|
Post by FullerMagic on Feb 9, 2024 13:08:18 GMT
Proof will be in the pudding.
His agent leaked through his friendly journalist Fraser Fletcher before the deadline that he "wants to stay and is willing to fight for his place" a fortnight ago, when they were trying to paint the situation as Schumacher basically trying to move him on for no reason.
If his behaviour changes, fair enough. But it clearly hasn't done so far
|
|
|
Mmaee
Feb 9, 2024 13:10:23 GMT
via mobile
spoton likes this
Post by glpotter on Feb 9, 2024 13:10:23 GMT
Turning up to training be a start Ryan
|
|
|
Mmaee
Feb 9, 2024 13:11:26 GMT
via mobile
Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2024 13:11:26 GMT
Great. Hopefully it’s lit a fire under his belly!
|
|
|
Post by FullerMagic on Feb 9, 2024 13:13:29 GMT
Admission of some wrongdoing is a big step forward at least.
You'd think there's a path forward for him here now if it's actually backed up.
|
|
|
Post by Rick Grimes on Feb 9, 2024 13:16:41 GMT
That’s positive.
If he shows the right attitude from now on then he can be welcomed back into the fold between now and the end of the season at the very least.
|
|