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Israel
Oct 14, 2024 13:29:23 GMT
Post by Ariel Manto on Oct 14, 2024 13:29:23 GMT
I love occasionally reading Declassified, especially about Iran - "“then, as now, a key goal for the Israel lobby [is] to get Western governments to brand their critics (from the PLO to the aid agency UNRWA) as terrorist groups, in order to delegitimise them”."Confrontation With Iran
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Israel
Oct 14, 2024 13:37:19 GMT
via mobile
Post by gawa on Oct 14, 2024 13:37:19 GMT
I will not be called a terrorist sympathiser while people in this thread for 12 consecutive months make excuse for this. Read the full story here - en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Hind_RajabRest in Peace Hind. One of 10s of thousands of children to face the same fate from a terrorist government. You can't excuse those actions (cited above)...or any bombardment, territorial encroachment, rocket attack, hostage taking, killing, raping, torturing, etc.... I don't know anyone worth listening to who would. Netanyahu and his government (and previous iterations of it) are as much of a cancer to the whole issue as Hamas, Hezbollah and Iran are. They all constantly nurture and provoke ad hominem arguments that question their opponents' motives rather than promoting any degree of empathy on either side. It's rather up to other people to determine whether they feel you are some sort of terrorist sympathiser given what they read from you. They're welcome to read what they want from it. The same people try to justify attacks on hospitals and children reciting "human shield" in one of the most densely populated places on earth. I've been consistent on my position on Israel before October 7th. Others only took an interest afterwards. They had no concern for palestines beforehand, some even act as if this all only started then.
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Israel
Oct 14, 2024 14:02:49 GMT
via mobile
Post by musik on Oct 14, 2024 14:02:49 GMT
And we ALL just want piece, right? Don't create conflicts if there aren't any.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Oct 14, 2024 14:12:16 GMT
And people don't even realise how the headlines that they are reading are so heavily manipulated, even by the biggest of news channels ...
And why are we being given the names and ages of soldiers from another country who are taking part in a war that is nothing to do with us?
And what about the kids, who, attached to life support machines, were burned alive in their beds last night?
It is such biased reporting, intended to make the public think that one side is good and the other side is bad, it is utterly shameful ...
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Post by CBUFAWKIPWH on Oct 14, 2024 15:10:21 GMT
Perilously close to glorifying terrorism, there..... I'm not the one making excuses and apologies for a terrorist state murdering civillians for 12 months. If you want to talk about glorifying terrorism you can look closer to your own posts and also the actions of our western governments. I support Iran in arming resistance groups to defend their territory and their people. Others support the west in arming governments with a long history of human rights abuses to attack and kill civillians of all ages in territories which do not belong to them. There's alot of terrorism being glorified in this thread but it isn't from me. Its from those who decide to take their moral compass of those enabling genocide and ethnic cleansing. In a parallel universe though if we all followed Hitlers moral compass in 1945. Then many of those who fought against fascism would be called terrorists. And those who did the Holocaust would be called groups fighting terror.... Swings and roundabouts. I know I'm on the right side. I'm sure nazis thought they were on the right side too in 1945.... You are defending the right of Iran to arm Hamas - a terrorist organization who have committed atrocities against Isreali civilians. Which is as morally reprehensible as those you condemn for supporting the arming of Isreal to committ atrocities against Palestinian civilians. The fact you think you are supporting the "right side" is irrelevant. You are also completely wrong in your view that the only option is to either support the Isreali government or Hamas - that is a false dichotomy. It is perfectly possible to condemn the actions of both the Isreali government and Hamas and its supporters.
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Post by wagsastokie on Oct 14, 2024 15:27:11 GMT
I'm not the one making excuses and apologies for a terrorist state murdering civillians for 12 months. If you want to talk about glorifying terrorism you can look closer to your own posts and also the actions of our western governments. I support Iran in arming resistance groups to defend their territory and their people. Others support the west in arming governments with a long history of human rights abuses to attack and kill civillians of all ages in territories which do not belong to them. There's alot of terrorism being glorified in this thread but it isn't from me. Its from those who decide to take their moral compass of those enabling genocide and ethnic cleansing. In a parallel universe though if we all followed Hitlers moral compass in 1945. Then many of those who fought against fascism would be called terrorists. And those who did the Holocaust would be called groups fighting terror.... Swings and roundabouts. I know I'm on the right side. I'm sure nazis thought they were on the right side too in 1945.... You are defending the right of Iran to arm Hamas - a terrorist organization who have committed atrocities against Isreali civilians. Which is as morally reprehensible as those you condemn for supporting the arming of Isreal to committ atrocities against Palestinian civilians. The fact you think you are supporting the "right side" is irrelevant. You are also completely wrong in your view that the only option is to either support the Isreali government or Hamas - that is a false dichotomy. It is perfectly possible to condemn the actions of both the Isreali government and Hamas and its supporters. I haven’t seen a post on this thread that has supported hamas
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Post by prestwichpotter on Oct 14, 2024 16:15:31 GMT
I'm not the one making excuses and apologies for a terrorist state murdering civillians for 12 months. If you want to talk about glorifying terrorism you can look closer to your own posts and also the actions of our western governments. I support Iran in arming resistance groups to defend their territory and their people. Others support the west in arming governments with a long history of human rights abuses to attack and kill civillians of all ages in territories which do not belong to them. There's alot of terrorism being glorified in this thread but it isn't from me. Its from those who decide to take their moral compass of those enabling genocide and ethnic cleansing. In a parallel universe though if we all followed Hitlers moral compass in 1945. Then many of those who fought against fascism would be called terrorists. And those who did the Holocaust would be called groups fighting terror.... Swings and roundabouts. I know I'm on the right side. I'm sure nazis thought they were on the right side too in 1945.... You are defending the right of Iran to arm Hamas - a terrorist organization who have committed atrocities against Isreali civilians. Which is as morally reprehensible as those you condemn for supporting the arming of Isreal to committ atrocities against Palestinian civilians. The fact you think you are supporting the "right side" is irrelevant. You are also completely wrong in your view that the only option is to either support the Isreali government or Hamas - that is a false dichotomy. It is perfectly possible to condemn the actions of both the Isreali government and Hamas and its supporters. Israel happily allowed funding to Hamas for years as they were the good guys and the PLO were the bad guys, loads of cash for for weapons coming in from the likes of Turkey, Algeria and Qatar as well as Iran. The biggest contributor's were/are Qatar, we flew over to their country in our hundreds of thousands to watch the World Cup, sipped drinks and ate snacks from companies happily doing business with them. Well sell weapons to the highest bidder, including Saudi Arabia - masters of state sponsored terror - so they can blow Yemeni kids to bits. The hypocrisy is off the scale......
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Israel
Oct 14, 2024 17:51:40 GMT
via mobile
Post by CBUFAWKIPWH on Oct 14, 2024 17:51:40 GMT
You are defending the right of Iran to arm Hamas - a terrorist organization who have committed atrocities against Isreali civilians. Which is as morally reprehensible as those you condemn for supporting the arming of Isreal to committ atrocities against Palestinian civilians. The fact you think you are supporting the "right side" is irrelevant. You are also completely wrong in your view that the only option is to either support the Isreali government or Hamas - that is a false dichotomy. It is perfectly possible to condemn the actions of both the Isreali government and Hamas and its supporters. I haven’t seen a post on this thread that has supported hamas The poster I replied to literally said "I support Iran in arming resistance groups that defend their territory and their people". If he isn't referring to Hamas and Hezbollah or his he referring to?
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Post by CBUFAWKIPWH on Oct 14, 2024 18:07:46 GMT
You are defending the right of Iran to arm Hamas - a terrorist organization who have committed atrocities against Isreali civilians. Which is as morally reprehensible as those you condemn for supporting the arming of Isreal to committ atrocities against Palestinian civilians. The fact you think you are supporting the "right side" is irrelevant. You are also completely wrong in your view that the only option is to either support the Isreali government or Hamas - that is a false dichotomy. It is perfectly possible to condemn the actions of both the Isreali government and Hamas and its supporters. Israel happily allowed funding to Hamas for years as they were the good guys and the PLO were the bad guys, loads of cash for for weapons coming in from the likes of Turkey, Algeria and Qatar as well as Iran. The biggest contributor's were/are Qatar, we flew over to their country in our hundreds of thousands to watch the World Cup, sipped drinks and ate snacks from companies happily doing business with them. Well sell weapons to the highest bidder, including Saudi Arabia - masters of state sponsored terror - so they can blow Yemeni kids to bits. The hypocrisy is off the scale...... Hypocrisy is irrelevant to my point. My point is that Hamas is a terrorist organisation that has committed atrocities against Isreali civilians. The fact that the Istrali government has committed atrocities against Palestinian citizens does not exonerate them. And vice versa. In addition the "they started it arguement" is as valid in this context is it is in the school playground.
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Post by prestwichpotter on Oct 14, 2024 18:21:07 GMT
Israel happily allowed funding to Hamas for years as they were the good guys and the PLO were the bad guys, loads of cash for for weapons coming in from the likes of Turkey, Algeria and Qatar as well as Iran. The biggest contributor's were/are Qatar, we flew over to their country in our hundreds of thousands to watch the World Cup, sipped drinks and ate snacks from companies happily doing business with them. Well sell weapons to the highest bidder, including Saudi Arabia - masters of state sponsored terror - so they can blow Yemeni kids to bits. The hypocrisy is off the scale...... Hypocrisy is irrelevant to my point. My point is that Hamas is a terrorist organisation that has committed atrocities against Isreali civilians. The fact that the Istrali government has committed atrocities against Palestinian citizens does not exonerate them. And vice versa. In addition the "they started it arguement" is as valid in this context is it is in the school playground. So you keep saying, I'm not sure what your point is though other than to state the obvious? The King David Hotel was bombed by the Irgun Zvai Le’umi in 1946, it's leader Menachem Begin became Prime Minister of Israel in 1977. A terrorist group committing an act of terror. This shit has been going on since time immemorial........
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Post by CBUFAWKIPWH on Oct 14, 2024 19:04:24 GMT
Hypocrisy is irrelevant to my point. My point is that Hamas is a terrorist organisation that has committed atrocities against Isreali civilians. The fact that the Istrali government has committed atrocities against Palestinian citizens does not exonerate them. And vice versa. In addition the "they started it arguement" is as valid in this context is it is in the school playground. So you keep saying, I'm not sure what your point is though other than to state the obvious? The King David Hotel was bombed by the Irgun Zvai Le’umi in 1946, it's leader Menachem Begin became Prime Minister of Israel in 1977. A terrorist group committing an act of terror. This shit has been going on since time immemorial........ My point may well be stating the bleeding obvious but I was making it because it seems some people expect me to take sides when in fact it is perfectly possible to hold the view yhat both the Isreali givernment AND Hamas (and Hezbollah) have committed terrorist acts against civilians. Just because I condemn the atrocities committed by Hamas it doesn't mean I am siding with the Isreali government. Equally if I condemn the atrocities committed by the Isreali government it doesn't mean I have to condone or turn a blind to the atrocities committed by Hamas. And digging back in history for first causes is pointless and does nothing to justify the behaviour of either side.
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Post by prestwichpotter on Oct 14, 2024 19:43:16 GMT
So you keep saying, I'm not sure what your point is though other than to state the obvious? The King David Hotel was bombed by the Irgun Zvai Le’umi in 1946, it's leader Menachem Begin became Prime Minister of Israel in 1977. A terrorist group committing an act of terror. This shit has been going on since time immemorial........ My point may well be stating the bleeding obvious but I was making it because it seems some people expect me to take sides when in fact it is perfectly possible to hold the view yhat both the Isreali givernment AND Hamas (and Hezbollah) have committed terrorist acts against civilians. Just because I condemn the atrocities committed by Hamas it doesn't mean I am siding with the Isreali government. Equally if I condemn the atrocities committed by the Isreali government it doesn't mean I have to condone or turn a blind to the atrocities committed by Hamas. And digging back in history for first causes is pointless and does nothing to justify the behaviour of either side. You can both sides it as much as you choose too, it’s of little interest to me. But the actions of a nations state should not be comparable to a that of a terrorist organisation. It should be held to a much higher standard. And of course Hamas has very little to do with Israel’s ongoing ethnic cleansing of the West Bank and other occupied territories, which is an area very few people always keen to add “balance” want to talk about……
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Israel
Oct 14, 2024 19:56:14 GMT
Post by Ariel Manto on Oct 14, 2024 19:56:14 GMT
My point may well be stating the bleeding obvious but I was making it because it seems some people expect me to take sides when in fact it is perfectly possible to hold the view yhat both the Isreali givernment AND Hamas (and Hezbollah) have committed terrorist acts against civilians. Just because I condemn the atrocities committed by Hamas it doesn't mean I am siding with the Isreali government. Equally if I condemn the atrocities committed by the Isreali government it doesn't mean I have to condone or turn a blind to the atrocities committed by Hamas. And digging back in history for first causes is pointless and does nothing to justify the behaviour of either side. You can both sides it as much as you choose too, it’s of little interest to me. But the actions of a nations state should not be comparable to a that of a terrorist organisation. It should be held to a much higher standard. And of course Hamas has very little to do with Israel’s ongoing ethnic cleansing of the West Bank and other occupied territories, which is an area very few people always keen to add “balance” want to talk about…… Hamas wants the luxury of claiming to be both the legitimate government of Gaza and a terrorist organisation when it suits it. Having its cake and eating it, if you will. Hamas was elected government of the Palestinian Authority in January 2006. It then refused to recognize Israel's right to exist or renounce violence, and subsequently undertook a violent conflict with Fatah in 2007. Hamas has governed Gaza ever since, with Fatah governing in Ramallah.
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Post by prestwichpotter on Oct 14, 2024 20:17:38 GMT
You can both sides it as much as you choose too, it’s of little interest to me. But the actions of a nations state should not be comparable to a that of a terrorist organisation. It should be held to a much higher standard. And of course Hamas has very little to do with Israel’s ongoing ethnic cleansing of the West Bank and other occupied territories, which is an area very few people always keen to add “balance” want to talk about…… Hamas wants the luxury of claiming to be both the legitimate government of Gaza and a terrorist organisation when it suits it. Having its cake and eating it, if you will. Hamas was elected government of the Palestinian Authority in January 2006. It then refused to recognize Israel's right to exist or renounce violence, and subsequently undertook a violent conflict with Fatah in 2007. Hamas has governed Gaza ever since, with Fatah governing in Ramallah. Fancy them agreeing not to renounce violence, after Israel turned Gaza into an open air prison in 2005, controlling people and goods coming in/out, all utilities, air space and water. To use the house analogy you seem fond of, what would you and your family do if the fence surrounding your property was secured and you could only get in and out with permission, your running water and your electricity were intermittent, your food supplies dependant on what you could grow or smuggle under the fence from a neighbour and your 15 year old son got shot in the back whilst throwing stones at one of the people guarding the front gate. Sit back and take it I suppose?
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Post by wannabee on Oct 14, 2024 20:36:11 GMT
You can both sides it as much as you choose too, it’s of little interest to me. But the actions of a nations state should not be comparable to a that of a terrorist organisation. It should be held to a much higher standard. And of course Hamas has very little to do with Israel’s ongoing ethnic cleansing of the West Bank and other occupied territories, which is an area very few people always keen to add “balance” want to talk about…… Hamas wants the luxury of claiming to be both the legitimate government of Gaza and a terrorist organisation when it suits it. Having its cake and eating it, if you will. Hamas was elected government of the Palestinian Authority in January 2006. It then refused to recognize Israel's right to exist or renounce violence, and subsequently undertook a violent conflict with Fatah in 2007. Hamas has governed Gaza ever since, with Fatah governing in Ramallah. Hamas has a Political Wing and a Military Wing very much similar to the structure the IRA had during "The Troubles" The British Army had superior military strength but it didn't bomb the shit out of a Civilian Population although it was said IRA Military Personnel moved about frequently in "Safe Houses" (Read Hospitals, Schools and Refugee Camps etc in Gaza) British Intelligence kept back channels of communication with IRA before and after Brighton Bombing and other Bombings on the mainland. These back channels formed the basis of dialogue which led to GFA The political wing of Hamas is responsible for governing the Gaza Strip, administering Hamas’s institutions, and engaging in political activities. It is headed by the Political Bureau, which is led by Yahya Sinwar (since July 2024) and previously by Ismail Haniyeh and Khaled Mashal. The political wing is also responsible for fundraising, propaganda, and diplomatic efforts. The military wing of Hamas is known as the Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades. It is responsible for conducting armed attacks against Israeli military and civilian targets, including rocket and mortar attacks, suicide bombings, and kidnappings. The military wing is led by senior commanders, including Marwan Issa and Abu Obaida. It would be foolish to suggest there isn't overlap between the Political Wing and the Military Wing towards a common goal as again like the IRA Some countries designate the entire Hamas Organization as a terrorist organization, some countries designate only the Military Wing The essential difference between the British Government dealing with the IRA and Israel dealing with Hamas is that Britain had an aim to find a solution, the Israeli Government have no such objective and by not discriminating between combatants and civilians it gives them free reign to wipe out as many Palestinians as possible. One mans Terrorist is another mans Freedom Fighter etc
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Post by CBUFAWKIPWH on Oct 14, 2024 22:38:51 GMT
Hamas wants the luxury of claiming to be both the legitimate government of Gaza and a terrorist organisation when it suits it. Having its cake and eating it, if you will. Hamas was elected government of the Palestinian Authority in January 2006. It then refused to recognize Israel's right to exist or renounce violence, and subsequently undertook a violent conflict with Fatah in 2007. Hamas has governed Gaza ever since, with Fatah governing in Ramallah. Hamas has a Political Wing and a Military Wing very much similar to the structure the IRA had during "The Troubles" The British Army had superior military strength but it didn't bomb the shit out of a Civilian Population although it was said IRA Military Personnel moved about frequently in "Safe Houses" (Read Hospitals, Schools and Refugee Camps etc in Gaza) British Intelligence kept back channels of communication with IRA before and after Brighton Bombing and other Bombings on the mainland. These back channels formed the basis of dialogue which led to GFA The political wing of Hamas is responsible for governing the Gaza Strip, administering Hamas’s institutions, and engaging in political activities. It is headed by the Political Bureau, which is led by Yahya Sinwar (since July 2024) and previously by Ismail Haniyeh and Khaled Mashal. The political wing is also responsible for fundraising, propaganda, and diplomatic efforts. The military wing of Hamas is known as the Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades. It is responsible for conducting armed attacks against Israeli military and civilian targets, including rocket and mortar attacks, suicide bombings, and kidnappings. The military wing is led by senior commanders, including Marwan Issa and Abu Obaida. It would be foolish to suggest there isn't overlap between the Political Wing and the Military Wing towards a common goal as again like the IRA Some countries designate the entire Hamas Organization as a terrorist organization, some countries designate only the Military Wing The essential difference between the British Government dealing with the IRA and Israel dealing with Hamas is that Britain had an aim to find a solution, the Israeli Government have no such objective and by not discriminating between combatants and civilians it gives them free reign to wipe out as many Palestinians as possible. One mans Terrorist is another mans Freedom Fighter etc And a "Freedom Fighter" who resorts to acts of terror in order to further their political agenda is still a terrorist. Call them what you like it still doesn't make some of their actions any less despicable. And no less despicable than the atrocities perpetrated by the Isreali government on the people of Gaza, the West Bank and the Lebanon in the name of "self defence".
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Post by wannabee on Oct 15, 2024 0:07:29 GMT
Hamas has a Political Wing and a Military Wing very much similar to the structure the IRA had during "The Troubles" The British Army had superior military strength but it didn't bomb the shit out of a Civilian Population although it was said IRA Military Personnel moved about frequently in "Safe Houses" (Read Hospitals, Schools and Refugee Camps etc in Gaza) British Intelligence kept back channels of communication with IRA before and after Brighton Bombing and other Bombings on the mainland. These back channels formed the basis of dialogue which led to GFA The political wing of Hamas is responsible for governing the Gaza Strip, administering Hamas’s institutions, and engaging in political activities. It is headed by the Political Bureau, which is led by Yahya Sinwar (since July 2024) and previously by Ismail Haniyeh and Khaled Mashal. The political wing is also responsible for fundraising, propaganda, and diplomatic efforts. The military wing of Hamas is known as the Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades. It is responsible for conducting armed attacks against Israeli military and civilian targets, including rocket and mortar attacks, suicide bombings, and kidnappings. The military wing is led by senior commanders, including Marwan Issa and Abu Obaida. It would be foolish to suggest there isn't overlap between the Political Wing and the Military Wing towards a common goal as again like the IRA Some countries designate the entire Hamas Organization as a terrorist organization, some countries designate only the Military Wing The essential difference between the British Government dealing with the IRA and Israel dealing with Hamas is that Britain had an aim to find a solution, the Israeli Government have no such objective and by not discriminating between combatants and civilians it gives them free reign to wipe out as many Palestinians as possible. One mans Terrorist is another mans Freedom Fighter etc And a "Freedom Fighter" who resorts to acts of terror in order to further their political agenda is still a terrorist. Call them what you like it still doesn't make some of their actions any less despicable. And no less despicable than the atrocities perpetrated by the Isreali government on the people of Gaza, the West Bank and the Lebanon in the name of "self defence". You keep parroting a mantra that nobody disputes but which is detached from reality Prestwick has already cited Menachem Begin, I'll add three more to the pot (there are many others), Mandela, *Ghandi and Arafat. All were branded as terrorists and served gaol time for it yet two won the Nobel Peace Prize and the latter was instrumental in bringing about the Oslo Accords for the Two State Solution you are so entirely wedded to as the only possible solution to the Israeli/Palestinian Conflict. Sometimes a corrupt regime dictates that no matter how much you abhor the actions the context of them can only be reviewed historically, I suppose another way of saying the victor writes history. * I deliberately included Ghandi as while it is well understood he preached and practiced non violence. The struggle for Indian Independence didn't occur in a vacuum and others unlike Ghandi were prepared to resort to more violent acts. Far from condemning them Ghandi said he perfectly understood why they would resort to violence.
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Israel
Oct 15, 2024 11:21:45 GMT
via mobile
Post by gawa on Oct 15, 2024 11:21:45 GMT
I'm sure Israelis are sleeping better tonight knowing this terrorist is now dead.
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Israel
Oct 15, 2024 15:18:38 GMT
Post by Ariel Manto on Oct 15, 2024 15:18:38 GMT
Hamas wants the luxury of claiming to be both the legitimate government of Gaza and a terrorist organisation when it suits it. Having its cake and eating it, if you will. Hamas was elected government of the Palestinian Authority in January 2006. It then refused to recognize Israel's right to exist or renounce violence, and subsequently undertook a violent conflict with Fatah in 2007. Hamas has governed Gaza ever since, with Fatah governing in Ramallah. Fancy them agreeing not to renounce violence, after Israel turned Gaza into an open air prison in 2005, controlling people and goods coming in/out, all utilities, air space and water. To use the house analogy you seem fond of, what would you and your family do if the fence surrounding your property was secured and you could only get in and out with permission, your running water and your electricity were intermittent, your food supplies dependant on what you could grow or smuggle under the fence from a neighbour and your 15 year old son got shot in the back whilst throwing stones at one of the people guarding the front gate. Sit back and take it I suppose? Well, as much as I do love secure fencing, I'd probably weigh up what would stop or change my plight given that I can't directly control what the other side do. So, as angry as I would be and as much as little old me trying to force the issue would only ever seem sensible for a millisecond, I'm fairly sure on balance that throwing more stones and lobbing more rockets at them, taking their families as hostages or killing them, and generally exacerbating the situation would probably give them more of a reason to carry on and build a bigger fence and moreover take stronger action against little old me. So, I'd probably sit down with them and come to an accommodation to stop the plight of my family and save my family house. The laws pf physics don't generally care from which direction the petrol is being poured - you just have to stop pouring it.
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Post by wagsastokie on Oct 15, 2024 15:45:30 GMT
Fancy them agreeing not to renounce violence, after Israel turned Gaza into an open air prison in 2005, controlling people and goods coming in/out, all utilities, air space and water. To use the house analogy you seem fond of, what would you and your family do if the fence surrounding your property was secured and you could only get in and out with permission, your running water and your electricity were intermittent, your food supplies dependant on what you could grow or smuggle under the fence from a neighbour and your 15 year old son got shot in the back whilst throwing stones at one of the people guarding the front gate. Sit back and take it I suppose? Well, as much as I do love secure fencing, I'd probably weigh up what would stop or change my plight given that I can't directly control what the other side do. So, as angry as I would be and as much as little old me trying to force the issue would only ever seem sensible for a millisecond, I'm fairly sure on balance that throwing more stones and lobbing more rockets at them, taking their families as hostages or killing them, and generally exacerbating the situation would probably give them more of a reason to carry on and build a bigger fence and moreover take stronger action against little old me. So, I'd probably sit down with them and come to an accommodation to stop the plight of my family and save my family house. The laws pf physics don't generally care from which direction the petrol is being poured - you just have to stop pouring it. Or I’d look at my family who have been starved for years locked in a open prison for years Treat as third rate citizens for years Buried my parents and siblings for years murdered by Israelis Glanced across to land that is rightfully mine occupied by Israelis And I’d probably think I’ll fight the genocidal bastards to my dying breath Oh by the way you never did answer wether you believe if peace could be achieved you agree with Israel agreeing to all international laws
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Post by Ariel Manto on Oct 15, 2024 15:59:50 GMT
Well, as much as I do love secure fencing, I'd probably weigh up what would stop or change my plight given that I can't directly control what the other side do. So, as angry as I would be and as much as little old me trying to force the issue would only ever seem sensible for a millisecond, I'm fairly sure on balance that throwing more stones and lobbing more rockets at them, taking their families as hostages or killing them, and generally exacerbating the situation would probably give them more of a reason to carry on and build a bigger fence and moreover take stronger action against little old me. So, I'd probably sit down with them and come to an accommodation to stop the plight of my family and save my family house. The laws pf physics don't generally care from which direction the petrol is being poured - you just have to stop pouring it. Or I’d look at my family who have been starved for years locked in a open prison for years Treat as third rate citizens for years Buried my parents and siblings for years murdered by Israelis Glanced across to land that is rightfully mine occupied by Israelis And I’d probably think I’ll fight the genocidal bastards to my dying breath Oh by the way you never did answer wether you believe if peace could be achieved you agree with Israel agreeing to all international laws Or, to cut to the chase, I want to end the conflict and find a resolution whilst you want to exacerbate it by "fighting the genocidal bastards to (your) dying breath"...presumably quite happy with the dying bit. If you want peace, at some point you have to work towards it yourself. Or, you get to crack on and continue with the dying thing.
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Post by CBUFAWKIPWH on Oct 15, 2024 16:15:56 GMT
And a "Freedom Fighter" who resorts to acts of terror in order to further their political agenda is still a terrorist. Call them what you like it still doesn't make some of their actions any less despicable. And no less despicable than the atrocities perpetrated by the Isreali government on the people of Gaza, the West Bank and the Lebanon in the name of "self defence". You keep parroting a mantra that nobody disputes but which is detached from reality Prestwick has already cited Menachem Begin, I'll add three more to the pot (there are many others), Mandela, *Ghandi and Arafat. All were branded as terrorists and served gaol time for it yet two won the Nobel Peace Prize and the latter was instrumental in bringing about the Oslo Accords for the Two State Solution you are so entirely wedded to as the only possible solution to the Israeli/Palestinian Conflict. Sometimes a corrupt regime dictates that no matter how much you abhor the actions the context of them can only be reviewed historically, I suppose another way of saying the victor writes history. * I deliberately included Ghandi as while it is well understood he preached and practiced non violence. The struggle for Indian Independence didn't occur in a vacuum and others unlike Ghandi were prepared to resort to more violent acts. Far from condemning them Ghandi said he perfectly understood why they would resort to violence. All of those examples (and I would add Gerry Adams and Martin McGuiness to that list) received their plaudits by renouncing terrorism and achieving their political ends through peaceful means. Hamas, Hezbollah and the Isteali government have done nothing of the sort. They are all using terror to acheive their ends and there is no political solution in sight and there won't be until both sides abandon terrorism as the means to their political ends. You're not to the first to misrepresent me on this thread and I'm sure you won't be the last. I am not wedded to the 2 state solution as a point of principe. I raise it because it's the only solution on the table backed by credible players. The thing is you and others justifying your "freedom fighters" atrocities committed against innocent Isreali civilians are offering nothing in the way of practical, achievable solutions. You bang on about first causes and the plight of the Palestininian people but that's it - you offer nothing bar well meaning platitudes. If the people of Palestine rely on Hamas, Hezbollah and their western bleeding heart, well meaning sympathisers to improve their situation they are well and truly fucked. They are not going to acheive a peaceful solution through violence. It's not only morally dubious but they have absolutely no chance of success - in an all out war there is only going to be one winner.
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Israel
Oct 15, 2024 16:24:39 GMT
Post by prestwichpotter on Oct 15, 2024 16:24:39 GMT
You keep parroting a mantra that nobody disputes but which is detached from reality Prestwick has already cited Menachem Begin, I'll add three more to the pot (there are many others), Mandela, *Ghandi and Arafat. All were branded as terrorists and served gaol time for it yet two won the Nobel Peace Prize and the latter was instrumental in bringing about the Oslo Accords for the Two State Solution you are so entirely wedded to as the only possible solution to the Israeli/Palestinian Conflict. Sometimes a corrupt regime dictates that no matter how much you abhor the actions the context of them can only be reviewed historically, I suppose another way of saying the victor writes history. * I deliberately included Ghandi as while it is well understood he preached and practiced non violence. The struggle for Indian Independence didn't occur in a vacuum and others unlike Ghandi were prepared to resort to more violent acts. Far from condemning them Ghandi said he perfectly understood why they would resort to violence. All of those examples (and I would add Gerry Adams and Martin McGuiness to that list) received their plaudits by renouncing terrorism and achieving their political ends through peaceful means. Hamas, Hezbollah and the Isteali government have done nothing of the sort. They are all using terror to acheive their ends and there is no political solution in sight and there won't be until both sides abandon terrorism as the means to their political ends. You're not to the first to misrepresent me on this thread and I'm sure you won't be the last. I am not wedded to the 2 state solution as a point of principe. I raise it because it's the only solution on the table backed by credible players. The thing is you and others justifying your "freedom fighters" atrocities committed against innocent Isreali civilians are offering nothing in the way of practical, achievable solutions. You bang on about first causes and the plight of the Palestininian people but that's it - you offer nothing bar well meaning platitudes. If the people of Palestine rely on Hamas, Hezbollah and their western bleeding heart, well meaning sympathisers to improve their situation they are well and truly fucked. They are not going to acheive a peaceful solution through violence. It's not only morally dubious but they have absolutely no chance of success - in an all out war there is only going to be one winner. With respect you're offering the same solutions as the majority on here, pretty much everyone would like to see a peaceful resolution to this conflict (apart from a couple of posters who have shown zero empathy for the plight of the Palestinian and would probably prefer to see a load of Arabs bombed into oblivion) Historical context and commentary are just part of the thread like any other, not every post has to be a solution to a problem. Your well meaning platitudes are just slightly different to other peoples........
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Post by Ariel Manto on Oct 15, 2024 16:34:05 GMT
All of those examples (and I would add Gerry Adams and Martin McGuiness to that list) received their plaudits by renouncing terrorism and achieving their political ends through peaceful means. Hamas, Hezbollah and the Isteali government have done nothing of the sort. They are all using terror to acheive their ends and there is no political solution in sight and there won't be until both sides abandon terrorism as the means to their political ends. You're not to the first to misrepresent me on this thread and I'm sure you won't be the last. I am not wedded to the 2 state solution as a point of principe. I raise it because it's the only solution on the table backed by credible players. The thing is you and others justifying your "freedom fighters" atrocities committed against innocent Isreali civilians are offering nothing in the way of practical, achievable solutions. You bang on about first causes and the plight of the Palestininian people but that's it - you offer nothing bar well meaning platitudes. If the people of Palestine rely on Hamas, Hezbollah and their western bleeding heart, well meaning sympathisers to improve their situation they are well and truly fucked. They are not going to acheive a peaceful solution through violence. It's not only morally dubious but they have absolutely no chance of success - in an all out war there is only going to be one winner. With respect you're offering the same solutions as the majority on here, pretty much everyone would like to see a peaceful resolution to this conflict (apart from a couple of posters who have shown zero empathy for the plight of the Palestinian and would probably prefer to see a load of Arabs bombed into oblivion) Historical context and commentary are just part of the thread like any other, not every post has to be a solution to a problem. Your well meaning platitudes are just slightly different to other peoples........ Quite a few on here don't show too much empathy or sympathy for innocent Israeli's and would probably prefer to justify the actions of Hamas and Hezbollah against Israel, in fairness......!
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Post by wagsastokie on Oct 15, 2024 16:42:29 GMT
Or I’d look at my family who have been starved for years locked in a open prison for years Treat as third rate citizens for years Buried my parents and siblings for years murdered by Israelis Glanced across to land that is rightfully mine occupied by Israelis And I’d probably think I’ll fight the genocidal bastards to my dying breath Oh by the way you never did answer wether you believe if peace could be achieved you agree with Israel agreeing to all international laws Or, to cut to the chase, I want to end the conflict and find a resolution whilst you want to exacerbate it by "fighting the genocidal bastards to (your) dying breath"...presumably quite happy with the dying bit. If you want peace, at some point you have to work towards it yourself. Or, you get to crack on and continue with the dying thing. So do you want peace on Israeli terms Or do you want a fair and justifiable peace based on international law It’s a simple question that you have avoided every time Do you believe Israel should comply with international law Yes or no
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Post by prestwichpotter on Oct 15, 2024 16:53:15 GMT
With respect you're offering the same solutions as the majority on here, pretty much everyone would like to see a peaceful resolution to this conflict (apart from a couple of posters who have shown zero empathy for the plight of the Palestinian and would probably prefer to see a load of Arabs bombed into oblivion) Historical context and commentary are just part of the thread like any other, not every post has to be a solution to a problem. Your well meaning platitudes are just slightly different to other peoples........ Quite a few on here don't show too much empathy or sympathy for innocent Israeli's and would probably prefer to justify the actions of Hamas and Hezbollah against Israel, in fairness......! Every regular contributor to this thread I know has been empathetic towards all Israeli's that suffered on Oct 7th and who continue to be collateral damage in this conflict by virtue of nothing else but geography. But I've said this previously, there's hundreds of thousands of Israeli citizens who could go back to their life in New York, London, Manchester, Paris or wherever, many of whom live in illegal settlements on stolen land. The people of Gaza and the occupied territories don't have that luxury. I have little sympathy for those people despite me wishing them no physical or mental harm. But there are lots of false equivalences when it comes to this situation......
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Post by Paul Spencer on Oct 15, 2024 17:07:01 GMT
Just so we're absolutely clear ...
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Post by roylandstoke on Oct 15, 2024 17:14:42 GMT
Hamas wants the luxury of claiming to be both the legitimate government of Gaza and a terrorist organisation when it suits it. Having its cake and eating it, if you will. Hamas was elected government of the Palestinian Authority in January 2006. It then refused to recognize Israel's right to exist or renounce violence, and subsequently undertook a violent conflict with Fatah in 2007. Hamas has governed Gaza ever since, with Fatah governing in Ramallah. Hamas has a Political Wing and a Military Wing very much similar to the structure the IRA had during "The Troubles" The British Army had superior military strength but it didn't bomb the shit out of a Civilian Population although it was said IRA Military Personnel moved about frequently in "Safe Houses" (Read Hospitals, Schools and Refugee Camps etc in Gaza) British Intelligence kept back channels of communication with IRA before and after Brighton Bombing and other Bombings on the mainland. These back channels formed the basis of dialogue which led to GFA The political wing of Hamas is responsible for governing the Gaza Strip, administering Hamas’s institutions, and engaging in political activities. It is headed by the Political Bureau, which is led by Yahya Sinwar (since July 2024) and previously by Ismail Haniyeh and Khaled Mashal. The political wing is also responsible for fundraising, propaganda, and diplomatic efforts. The military wing of Hamas is known as the Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades. It is responsible for conducting armed attacks against Israeli military and civilian targets, including rocket and mortar attacks, suicide bombings, and kidnappings. The military wing is led by senior commanders, including Marwan Issa and Abu Obaida. It would be foolish to suggest there isn't overlap between the Political Wing and the Military Wing towards a common goal as again like the IRA Some countries designate the entire Hamas Organization as a terrorist organization, some countries designate only the Military Wing The essential difference between the British Government dealing with the IRA and Israel dealing with Hamas is that Britain had an aim to find a solution, the Israeli Government have no such objective and by not discriminating between combatants and civilians it gives them free reign to wipe out as many Palestinians as possible. One mans Terrorist is another mans Freedom Fighter etc You could say the essential difference between Israeli and British governments is that one is a relatively civilised, liberal democracy and the other is a promoter of apartheid and terrorism. chng.it/M2hKpTgnjY
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Israel
Oct 15, 2024 17:38:47 GMT
Post by Ariel Manto on Oct 15, 2024 17:38:47 GMT
Hamas has a Political Wing and a Military Wing very much similar to the structure the IRA had during "The Troubles" The British Army had superior military strength but it didn't bomb the shit out of a Civilian Population although it was said IRA Military Personnel moved about frequently in "Safe Houses" (Read Hospitals, Schools and Refugee Camps etc in Gaza) British Intelligence kept back channels of communication with IRA before and after Brighton Bombing and other Bombings on the mainland. These back channels formed the basis of dialogue which led to GFA The political wing of Hamas is responsible for governing the Gaza Strip, administering Hamas’s institutions, and engaging in political activities. It is headed by the Political Bureau, which is led by Yahya Sinwar (since July 2024) and previously by Ismail Haniyeh and Khaled Mashal. The political wing is also responsible for fundraising, propaganda, and diplomatic efforts. The military wing of Hamas is known as the Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades. It is responsible for conducting armed attacks against Israeli military and civilian targets, including rocket and mortar attacks, suicide bombings, and kidnappings. The military wing is led by senior commanders, including Marwan Issa and Abu Obaida. It would be foolish to suggest there isn't overlap between the Political Wing and the Military Wing towards a common goal as again like the IRA Some countries designate the entire Hamas Organization as a terrorist organization, some countries designate only the Military Wing The essential difference between the British Government dealing with the IRA and Israel dealing with Hamas is that Britain had an aim to find a solution, the Israeli Government have no such objective and by not discriminating between combatants and civilians it gives them free reign to wipe out as many Palestinians as possible. One mans Terrorist is another mans Freedom Fighter etc You could say the essential difference between Israeli and British governments is that one is a relatively civilised, liberal democracy and the other is a promoter of apartheid and terrorism. chng.it/M2hKpTgnjYOut of interest, what do you call the government of Gaza?
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Post by Paul Spencer on Oct 15, 2024 18:36:31 GMT
And Ricketts is completely correct ...
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