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Israel
Jul 20, 2024 17:56:45 GMT
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Post by gawa on Jul 20, 2024 17:56:45 GMT
Would you say Hamas actions are worse than the current Israeli regimes actions? One of the things I find difficult to square up or compare is that Israel has almost certainly killed way more innocents than Hamas. But if Hamas were in Israel's position with their power, I bet they would have killed way way way more innocents than Israel has done. How do you balance up intent, cruelty, damages etc against each other? Do you think if it was the other way round that Israel/IDF wouldn't resist then? If they did would you consider them terrorists?
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Israel
Jul 20, 2024 17:58:40 GMT
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jul 20, 2024 17:58:40 GMT
One of the things I find difficult to square up or compare is that Israel has almost certainly killed way more innocents than Hamas. But if Hamas were in Israel's position with their power, I bet they would have killed way way way more innocents than Israel has done. How do you balance up intent, cruelty, damages etc against each other? Indeed Seems obvious to cast a plague on both of their houses, just find it frustrating that some automatically condemn the terrorists whilst cutting the regime slack UK needs to move away from the US position and genuinely commit to supporting 2 state solution as it is our continued default support of US foreign policy puts on one side of a conflict we should be nowhere near In my opinion a ( genuine) two state solution will never work. A one state solution would be better, but is unlikely.....because Israel will not give one inch whatsoever.
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Israel
Jul 20, 2024 18:15:15 GMT
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Post by mtrstudent on Jul 20, 2024 18:15:15 GMT
One of the things I find difficult to square up or compare is that Israel has almost certainly killed way more innocents than Hamas. But if Hamas were in Israel's position with their power, I bet they would have killed way way way more innocents than Israel has done. How do you balance up intent, cruelty, damages etc against each other? Do you think if it was the other way round that Israel/IDF wouldn't resist then? If they did would you consider them terrorists? I think they would resist. Whether I would consider them terrorists would depend on how they went about it. Would they IDF have done an October 7th type attack? Would Hamas, if they were in the IDF's position, show more/equal/less restraint in terms of civilian casualties? Those are important questions IMO and my impression is it's clear that Hamas, if given the power of the IDF, would slaughter far more civilians and would exult in it. That doesn't excuse the mass slaughter that the IDF has done.
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Post by lordb on Jul 20, 2024 18:21:33 GMT
Indeed Seems obvious to cast a plague on both of their houses, just find it frustrating that some automatically condemn the terrorists whilst cutting the regime slack UK needs to move away from the US position and genuinely commit to supporting 2 state solution as it is our continued default support of US foreign policy puts on one side of a conflict we should be nowhere near In my opinion a ( genuine) two state solution will never work. A one state solution would be better, but is unlikely.....because Israel will not give one inch whatsoever. Nothing will work without the will for people to live with each others differences
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Israel
Jul 20, 2024 18:27:55 GMT
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jul 20, 2024 18:27:55 GMT
In my opinion a ( genuine) two state solution will never work. A one state solution would be better, but is unlikely.....because Israel will not give one inch whatsoever. Nothing will work without the will for people to live with each others differences And no action by ( so labelled) extremists
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Israel
Jul 20, 2024 18:47:38 GMT
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Post by CBUFAWKIPWH on Jul 20, 2024 18:47:38 GMT
Indeed Seems obvious to cast a plague on both of their houses, just find it frustrating that some automatically condemn the terrorists whilst cutting the regime slack UK needs to move away from the US position and genuinely commit to supporting 2 state solution as it is our continued default support of US foreign policy puts on one side of a conflict we should be nowhere near In my opinion a ( genuine) two state solution will never work. A one state solution would be better, but is unlikely.....because Israel will not give one inch whatsoever. To my knowledge the only solution being pursued by anyone with any influence is a two state solution - it was government policy under the Tories and remains so under Labour. Why do you think it won't work? No-one appears to have any confidence in a one state solution - it's a nice idea bit no-one is doing anything to make it happen.
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Israel
Jul 20, 2024 19:05:14 GMT
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jul 20, 2024 19:05:14 GMT
In my opinion a ( genuine) two state solution will never work. A one state solution would be better, but is unlikely.....because Israel will not give one inch whatsoever. To my knowledge the only solution being pursued by anyone with any influence is a two state solution - it was government policy under the Tories and remains so under Labour. Why do you think it won't work? No-one appears to have any confidence in a one state solution - it's a nice idea bit no-one is doing anything to make it happen. You are right CB.... but personally I don't think it will ever work, not genuinely work. I think Israel will " demand" conditions eg responsibility for security. In the fullness of time I don't think either state will accept the existence of the other as neighbours.....terrorist acts will continue. The jurisdiction of Jerusalem will be a perennial issue. The Palestinian state of both the Gaxa strip AND the West Bank will have its own issues. I don't think the one state solution will happen either but there are some Muslims who are in favour. I'm the eternal optimist but I'd like to think also realist ....once Israel was created I don't think there IS a ( " peaceful ") solution that involves the existence of both stats. What U think will happen: the Palestinians will continue to be virtually annihilated, Israel will " faux withdraw" ...saying that the job has been done, Hamas have been eliminated" the Gaza strip can now continue "....the West will accept this, it will then fade from the media and other world affairs will take precedence. Then either more " terrorist acts " might emerge in the ( longer term ) future and indeed Israel can exist in relative peace for a while OR other unpredictable events in the wider Middle East will overshadow the Palestinian issue en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-state_solution
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Post by mtrstudent on Jul 20, 2024 19:19:50 GMT
I'm the eternal optimist but I'd like to think also realist ....once Israel was created I don't think there IS a ( " peaceful ") solution that involves the existence of both stats. What U think will happen: the Palestinians will continue to be virtually annihilated, Israel will " faux withdraw" ...saying that the job has been done, Hamas have been eliminated" the Gaza strip can now continue "....the West will accept this, it will then fade from the media and other world affairs will take precedence. Then either more " terrorist acts " might emerge in the ( longer term ) future and indeed Israel can exist in relative peace for a while OR other unpredictable events in the wider Middle East will overshadow the Palestinian issue Hard to be an optimist on this one isn't it mate! I just don't see how going in and slaughtering a load of families is going to end the threats to Israel. It feels like the best recruitment campaign that Hamas (or whoever's next) could hope for. And then the attacks on Israel scare the people into voting for right wingers who promise to be strong and protect people by repeating the same stuff that powered up Hamas in the first place. Looks like it needs something special to give some breathing room to liberals in Israel and Palestine to try and sort something out. Hard to see how and it makes me sad. 😢
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Israel
Jul 20, 2024 19:38:22 GMT
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Post by lordb on Jul 20, 2024 19:38:22 GMT
Nothing will work without the will for people to live with each others differences And no action by ( so labelled) extremists On the contrary it's the extremists who need to act the most Just the opposite way they have been acting. The conflict will only receded once they do Thats why it's vital we speak to both sides on a neutral basis If we continue to back one side that just fuels the fire
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Post by gawa on Jul 20, 2024 19:52:48 GMT
Do you think if it was the other way round that Israel/IDF wouldn't resist then? If they did would you consider them terrorists? I think they would resist. Whether I would consider them terrorists would depend on how they went about it. Would they IDF have done an October 7th type attack? Would Hamas, if they were in the IDF's position, show more/equal/less restraint in terms of civilian casualties? Those are important questions IMO and my impression is it's clear that Hamas, if given the power of the IDF, would slaughter far more civilians and would exult in it. That doesn't excuse the mass slaughter that the IDF has done. I think it's very difficult and challenging to compare to be honest because when swapping them round are we assuming that the west are allies with Palestine/Hamas and do we not recognise Israel as a state? Would Hamas have carried out a hannibal directive murdering it's own citizens and ignored warnings from Egypt and military members about unusual activity and an incumbent attack? Or could their response maybe have been quicker and resulted in less casualties? I believe Israel holds a record for civillian casualties per day in terms of wars in the 21st century. So it's a high bar to do worse and I think the international reaction is quite pinacle to that too. With sanctions and interventions you'd expect it to be lower. So I think alot of that then depends on where Hamas/Palestine is allied with at the time of the conflict because on current alliances I don't think the UK/USA would sit back and not intervene if Palestine was doing what Israel is doing today. (source - www.oxfam.org/en/press-releases/daily-death-rate-gaza-higher-any-other-major-21st-century-conflict-oxfam)Why do you think it is clear that Hamas would kill more civilians? Obviously it is a hypothetical question so there is no correct answer but I feel myself that I sort of swap between the two depending on how deep I look into it and from what sort of perspective. The sad thing is, I can read back on what I've written above myself and see how easy it would then be to label me as a terrorist sympathiser or antisemite or whatever else, and then that's the label attached and the discussion silenced. But there are just so many cogs to this which makes it very difficult to give any sort of accurate prediction. I'd like to think if the roles were reversed that the Palestine people and the international community wouldn't allow it to happen or excuse it and there'd have been an international intervention months ago.
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Israel
Jul 20, 2024 19:57:05 GMT
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jul 20, 2024 19:57:05 GMT
And no action by ( so labelled) extremists On the contrary it's the extremists who need to act the most Just the opposite way they have been acting. The conflict will only receded once they do Thats why it's vital we speak to both sides on a neutral basis If we continue to back one side that just fuels the fire The extremists won't stop
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Post by mtrstudent on Jul 20, 2024 19:57:30 GMT
Why do you think it is clear that Hamas would kill more civilians? Obviously it is a hypothetical question so there is no correct answer but I feel myself that I sort of swap between the two depending on how deep I look into it and from what sort of perspective. The sad thing is, I can read back on what I've written above myself and see how easy it would then be to label me as a terrorist sympathiser or antisemite or whatever else, and then that's the label attached and the discussion silenced. But there are just so many cogs to this which makes it very difficult to give any sort of accurate prediction. I'd like to think if the roles were reversed that the Palestine people and the international community wouldn't allow it to happen or excuse it and there'd have been an international intervention months ago. This is a topic I really don't know enough about to feel like I can take a strong position or side or whatever. I watched a bunch of Hamas propaganda and read a bunch of military and law experts, which makes me think Hamas are happy to kill as many jewish people as possible, while Israel as a whole is not about killing all the Palestinians. That's why I think Hamas would go harder. What did 7th October achieve?
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Israel
Jul 20, 2024 20:11:13 GMT
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Post by lordb on Jul 20, 2024 20:11:13 GMT
On the contrary it's the extremists who need to act the most Just the opposite way they have been acting. The conflict will only receded once they do Thats why it's vital we speak to both sides on a neutral basis If we continue to back one side that just fuels the fire The extremists won't stop They can seems impossible now but look at Northern Ireland
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Israel
Jul 20, 2024 20:45:22 GMT
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jul 20, 2024 20:45:22 GMT
The extremists won't stop They can seems impossible now but look at Northern Ireland I admire your optimism. Two completely different situations? / Histories/ cultures/ideological issues/demographics .... and projections. The Irish question isn't solved yet. We'll have to agree to differ. Have rhe last word.
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Post by gawa on Jul 20, 2024 20:50:38 GMT
Why do you think it is clear that Hamas would kill more civilians? Obviously it is a hypothetical question so there is no correct answer but I feel myself that I sort of swap between the two depending on how deep I look into it and from what sort of perspective. The sad thing is, I can read back on what I've written above myself and see how easy it would then be to label me as a terrorist sympathiser or antisemite or whatever else, and then that's the label attached and the discussion silenced. But there are just so many cogs to this which makes it very difficult to give any sort of accurate prediction. I'd like to think if the roles were reversed that the Palestine people and the international community wouldn't allow it to happen or excuse it and there'd have been an international intervention months ago. This is a topic I really don't know enough about to feel like I can take a strong position or side or whatever. I watched a bunch of Hamas propaganda and read a bunch of military and law experts, which makes me think Hamas are happy to kill as many jewish people as possible, while Israel as a whole is not about killing all the Palestinians. That's why I think Hamas would go harder. What did 7th October achieve? To be pedantic we could point at October 7th as an example of hamas not killing "as many jewish people as possible" given they took hostages back. Are the IDF not happy to kill as many palestines as possible providing they take one hamas fighter with them? Think kids burning in tents, hospitals bombed and refugee camps bombed as well as schools. What did July 3rd achieve?
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Israel
Jul 20, 2024 21:02:33 GMT
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Post by Paul Spencer on Jul 20, 2024 21:02:33 GMT
Paul, where you are going wrong is posting with clarity and sensible use of the English language Chuck in some spelling mistakes, some incorrect use of words and loads of of swearing and people feel it easier to accept the things you say Actually don't, just keep posting Get your tongue deep enough mate and he'll notice You seriously believe that these type of posts have a place on this messageboard? They offer absolutely zip in terms of a genuine contribution to the discussion, whilst at the same time, they encourage people to respond in a similar crass and confrontational manner. Thankfully the vast majority of posters on here, are better than that.
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Israel
Jul 20, 2024 21:05:02 GMT
Post by knype on Jul 20, 2024 21:05:02 GMT
Get your tongue deep enough mate and he'll notice You seriously believe that these type of posts have a place on this messageboard? They offer absolutely zip in terms of a genuine contribution to the discussion, whilst at the same time, they encourage people to respond in a similar crass and confrontational manner. Thankfully the vast majority of posters on here, are better than that. Most of your posts reiterate and say the same things on every thread. There are a few people so far stuck up their own arses it's unreal. Thankfully the majority of posters on here, are better than that.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Jul 20, 2024 21:08:30 GMT
Do you think if it was the other way round that Israel/IDF wouldn't resist then? If they did would you consider them terrorists? Would Hamas, if they were in the IDF's position, show more/equal/less restraint in terms of civilian casualties? Those are important questions IMO and my impression is it's clear that Hamas, if given the power of the IDF, would slaughter far more. To suggest that it is 'clear' to you, is a pretty strong statement? Where has this clear belief come from, what is it based on exactly?
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Israel
Jul 20, 2024 21:15:34 GMT
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Post by iancransonsknees on Jul 20, 2024 21:15:34 GMT
Would Hamas, if they were in the IDF's position, show more/equal/less restraint in terms of civilian casualties? Those are important questions IMO and my impression is it's clear that Hamas, if given the power of the IDF, would slaughter far more. To suggest that it is 'clear' to you, is a pretty strong statement? Where has this clear belief come from, what is it based on exactly? The Hamas covenant maybe?
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Post by foster on Jul 20, 2024 21:16:33 GMT
Would Hamas, if they were in the IDF's position, show more/equal/less restraint in terms of civilian casualties? Those are important questions IMO and my impression is it's clear that Hamas, if given the power of the IDF, would slaughter far more. To suggest that it is 'clear' to you, is a pretty strong statement? Where has this clear belief come from, what is it based on exactly? Hamas is a terrorist organisation, hell bent on the destruction of Israel. Unless you think they're freedom fighters of course.
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Israel
Jul 20, 2024 21:16:59 GMT
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Post by Paul Spencer on Jul 20, 2024 21:16:59 GMT
You seriously believe that these type of posts have a place on this messageboard? They offer absolutely zip in terms of a genuine contribution to the discussion, whilst at the same time, they encourage people to respond in a similar crass and confrontational manner. Thankfully the vast majority of posters on here, are better than that. Most of your posts reiterate and say the same things on every thread. There are a few people so far stuck up their own arses it's unreal. Thankfully the majority of posters on here, are better than that. You've actually got absolutely nothing of your own to contribute to the thread have you? You genuinely believe that ridiculing people with personal jibes, rather than actually formulating an opinion of your own on the topic, gives your posts some sort of legitimacy. Well it doesn't, they are still nothing more than petty remarks, that offer nothing whatsoever to the discussion in hand.
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Israel
Jul 20, 2024 21:20:28 GMT
Post by knype on Jul 20, 2024 21:20:28 GMT
Most of your posts reiterate and say the same things on every thread. There are a few people so far stuck up their own arses it's unreal. Thankfully the majority of posters on here, are better than that. You've actually got absolutely nothing of your own to contribute to the thread have you? You genuinely believe that ridiculing people with personal jibes, rather than actually formulating an opinion of your own on the topic, gives your posts some sort of legitimacy. Well it doesn't, they are still nothing more than petty remarks, that offer nothing whatsoever to the discussion in hand. You got this on copy and paste? Sure I've seen you put something similar numerous times about other posters you disagree with.
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Israel
Jul 20, 2024 21:20:41 GMT
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Post by Paul Spencer on Jul 20, 2024 21:20:41 GMT
To suggest that it is 'clear' to you, is a pretty strong statement? Where has this clear belief come from, what is it based on exactly? Hamas is a terrorist organisation, hell bent on the destruction of Israel. Unless you think they're freedom fighters of course. Israel is an apartheid state which has been committing mass atrocities for 75 years. The question I was asking, was why he believed that Hamas would be worse than Israel, if they had their fire power?
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Israel
Jul 20, 2024 21:21:39 GMT
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lordb likes this
Post by Paul Spencer on Jul 20, 2024 21:21:39 GMT
You've actually got absolutely nothing of your own to contribute to the thread have you? You genuinely believe that ridiculing people with personal jibes, rather than actually formulating an opinion of your own on the topic, gives your posts some sort of legitimacy. Well it doesn't, they are still nothing more than petty remarks, that offer nothing whatsoever to the discussion in hand. You got this on copy and paste? Sure I've seen you put something similar numerous times about other posters you disagree with. Still nothing about the topic in hand ...
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Israel
Jul 20, 2024 21:22:27 GMT
Post by knype on Jul 20, 2024 21:22:27 GMT
Hamas is a terrorist organisation, hell bent on the destruction of Israel. Unless you think they're freedom fighters of course. Israel is an apartheid state which has been committing mass atrocities for 75 years. The question I was asking, was why he believed that Hamas would be worse than Israel, if they had their fire power? Defending a terrorist organisation yet again, we see you
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Israel
Jul 20, 2024 21:23:00 GMT
Post by knype on Jul 20, 2024 21:23:00 GMT
You got this on copy and paste? Sure I've seen you put something similar numerous times about other posters you disagree with. Still nothing about the topic in hand ... Keep defending terrorist scum then...
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Post by foster on Jul 20, 2024 21:23:39 GMT
Hamas is a terrorist organisation, hell bent on the destruction of Israel. Unless you think they're freedom fighters of course. Israel is an apartheid state which has been committing mass atrocities for 75 years. The question I was asking, was why he believed that Hamas would be worse than Israel, if they had their fire power? I don't know if you're taking the piss Paul. It's not even a question. Hamas, Iran, Hezbollah, etc would wipe Israel out without a second thought if they could.
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Israel
Jul 20, 2024 21:32:30 GMT
Post by Paul Spencer on Jul 20, 2024 21:32:30 GMT
Israel is an apartheid state which has been committing mass atrocities for 75 years. The question I was asking, was why he believed that Hamas would be worse than Israel, if they had their fire power? I don't know if you're taking the piss Paul. It's not even a question. Hamas, Iran, Hezbollah, etc would wipe Israel out without a second thought if they could.
The question is, would Hamas even exist at all, if it wasn't for the atrocities committed by Israel?
As I said further up the page, there isn't a chicken and egg situation going on here.
This is just from recent history, nevermind what went on in the middle of the last century ...
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Israel
Jul 20, 2024 21:35:34 GMT
Post by Paul Spencer on Jul 20, 2024 21:35:34 GMT
Still nothing about the topic in hand ... Keep defending terrorist scum then...
You're simply incapable of having an actual discussion about the topic in hand aren't you?
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Post by lordb on Jul 20, 2024 21:38:28 GMT
They can seems impossible now but look at Northern Ireland I admire your optimism. Two completely different situations? / Histories/ cultures/ideological issues/demographics .... and projections. The Irish question isn't solved yet. We'll have to agree to differ. Have rhe last word. I'm not optimistic at all think the whole thing has the capacity to get much much worse however never thought the violence in NI would be reduced like it has Most definitely not solved in Ireland but much better without the violence
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